A Historical Mistake. Or is it?

QistrelQistrel the hemisemidemifinkMember Posts: 1,717 Transcendent
I came across this odd discrepancy earlier today:

From The History of the Vernal Wars:
During the last days of the Vernal Wars, when all but Zenos and Kethuru were defeated, Juliana orchestrated a subtle plot that ended up in trapping Zenos within a icy prison.

From The Diary of the Oracle of the Earthburner:
The wars were slowly turning in our favour. Two of the Soulless were trapped, Illith and Zenos. This prompted the remaining Soulless Gods, Muud, Crazen and Kethuru to escalate their attacks on mortals and Vernal Gods alike.

At first, this seems to be an error. One source indicates that Zenos was the second last to be imprisoned (because we know Kethuru was last). The other indicates that Zenos was trapped before both Muud and Crazen were

But then another thought occurred to me: Perhaps both are true. Zenos was imprisoned before Muud and Crazen, and then at some point after their imprisonment, He broke free, and had to be re-imprisoned.

I thought I had a copy of the Ice Angel diary, but I can't find it anywhere. Anyone have that to hand? Does it mention anything related to the order the Soulless were imprisoned?

Comments

  • MarcellaMarcella Member Posts: 1,231 Transcendent
    The Ice Angel diary doesn't. This is a very, very good point you've brought up, and I love you.
  • IleeinIleein Member Posts: 630 Mythical
    I wouldn't be surprised if he emerged and had to be imprisoned again. The prisons of the Soulless appear to have been constructed using the mysterious Elder technology known as revolving doors.
    Jadice, the Frost Queen says to you, "Constant vigilance."
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,777 Transcendent
    Well from an IC perspective, who even wrote the histories of the verbal wars? And how reliable is that testimony? I've always taken the website histories, at least the ones without in-game documentation, as kind of knowledge that everyone coming through the portal just 'knows.' There's always the possibility that one or both of the authors is just wrong.
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 1,321 Mythical
    Daraius said:
    Well from an IC perspective, who even wrote the histories of the verbal wars? And how reliable is that testimony? I've always taken the website histories, at least the ones without in-game documentation, as kind of knowledge that everyone coming through the portal just 'knows.' There's always the possibility that one or both of the authors is just wrong.
    I thought there is IG books of the histories (although the Elder Wars were written in Divine)?
  • RilunaRiluna Member Posts: 1,118 Mythical
    Yeah, for real. Any time a new Book is released is the only time I'm glad I'm a Bookbinder. Nobody gives a damn about us until we need to translate something. They're all IG lore.

    Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
  • DaraiusDaraius Shevat The juror's taco spotMember Posts: 4,777 Transcendent
    Oh my bad. I really only read Hallifaxian stuff. :\">
    I used to make cakes.

    Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
  • KiradaweaKiradawea Member Posts: 1,750 Transcendent
    Daraius said:
    Well from an IC perspective, who even wrote the histories of the verbal wars? And how reliable is that testimony? I've always taken the website histories, at least the ones without in-game documentation, as kind of knowledge that everyone coming through the portal just 'knows.' There's always the possibility that one or both of the authors is just wrong.
    Probably Hallifaxians. I mean, who else could take verbal warfare seriously?

    Now the Vernal wars on the other hand, they have different authors, though it was my understanding that the vernal war parts on the lusternia web page is essentially brief summaries of old folk-tales.
    Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
  • AerotanAerotan Member Posts: 534 Expert
    Kiradawea said:
    Daraius said:
    Well from an IC perspective, who even wrote the histories of the verbal wars? And how reliable is that testimony? I've always taken the website histories, at least the ones without in-game documentation, as kind of knowledge that everyone coming through the portal just 'knows.' There's always the possibility that one or both of the authors is just wrong.
    Probably Hallifaxians. I mean, who else could take verbal warfare seriously?

    Now the Vernal wars on the other hand, they have different authors, though it was my understanding that the vernal war parts on the lusternia web page is essentially brief summaries of old folk-tales.
    Not all of them. Some of the Vernal War stuff is from diaries and journals and books that were contemporary to the Vernal Gods. I know the Cantors or Aquas published at least one diary from around the time Dionymus Ascended.
    image
  • PortiusPortius Likes big books, cannot lie Member Posts: 1,668 Transcendent
    I think all of the IG vernal books are from contemporary primary sources. That doesn't mean they're 100% true, of course. But that does mean they should be treated as accurate until contradictory evidence shows up.

    I agree with Kira that the ones on the website should be treated as common knowledge type things. Are they even available IG? I don't think so but I'm awful at finding things and not sure.
    Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
  • AerotanAerotan Member Posts: 534 Expert
    I think they were collected and published in the same way the Elder Wars books were, yes. It's been RL years since I checked though, I was still just an undersec in the Aquas.
    image
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    Mugwumps. The cult of Mugwumps were the ones who preserved all that stuff IG, iirc.
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 560 Fabled
    The mugwump cult kept the elder wars stuff. Was there a source for them doing the vernal stuff too? There's(or should be) a History of the Vernal Wars available at the library on Avechna's Peak, but I think it's written in divine.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    The Mugwumps kept the memories of the Elder gods, well, basically the memories they shared to Mugowumpois as She interviewed all the newly sharded races - and if you recall, Mugs was among the last 5 Elders to shard(iirc the order was (Xyl, Trialante, Mugowumpois, Dracnoris, Meridian), this implies that somewhere out there, there are books/memories of the Elder Wars from the POV of the other sharded races - Sileni and Centaurs come to mind, at least.

    I would also like to point this bit from The End of the Vernal Wars:

    Slowly, the Vernal Gods succeeded in their campaigns. First, Illith the Leviathan was frozen in the icy depths of the ocean. Then, Zenos the Insubstantial was lured to a mountain cave where he was trapped inside by great magicks. Great Muud was driven and trapped in beneath the earth itself, smoke and steam rising for decades afterwards. Finally, Crazen the Greedy was driven into a pit and there was imprisoned.

    This supports the theory that Zenos may have been imprisoned before but escaped. From this assumption, we can say that it was Juliana's Climanti plan that actually succeeded in trapping him for good, BUT notice the statement in red. It mentions that Vernals were successful, implying that it was this cave trap that succeeded in trapping Zenos for good. Now, given that what The End of the Vernal Wars is not really a book, but is more of a summary of folklore/oral history, I'm more inclined to believe that the diary is more accurate, since it's practically a relic from someone who lived through those events. We can chalk up the inaccuracy of the The End of the Vernal Wars to the author mixing things up. So:

    • Illith was imprisoned -  we don't have records/events for this so far
    • Zenos was imprisoned - we don't have records of this initial imprisonment
    • Muud was imprisoned - The Sleeping Child events
    • Crazen was imprisoned - Kryden Valik-ish(they're less Crazen-centric in the sense of how he got there, iirc, and instead focuses more on the Aslaran enslavement) - CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, PLS
    • Zenos escapped somewhere along the way
    • Zenos was imprisoned for good - Climanti events
    • Kethuru was imprisoned - we don't have actual IC records for the Merging so far
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • MoiMoi Member Posts: 1,213 Transcendent
    For Crazen, we also have the Goloth and Lirangsha Diaries.
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    Oh, thanks, @Iytha!

    GJ, Lusternia Nerds. Seeing that Ascension 2015 is a Nemach year, we can hope Illith surfaces for 2016. Think of the implications. /evillaugh
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • AerotanAerotan Member Posts: 534 Expert
    Deleting monks, illithoids, and kephera? </obviousjoke>
    image
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,631 Transcendent
    @Ileen hey! I was wondering if the revolving doors you speak of are the ones mentioned in the Climanti/Icewynd diaries?
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


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