Music - Fugue

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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,930 Transcendent
    edited January 2015
    Synkarin said:
    Shaddus said:
    Synkarin said:
    Because songs are even less necessary in group combat than in solo combat

    And no, you can't kill anyone with decent curing with crowcaw spam, try again.
    I used to in group fights as Vitas. Just saying.
    Well sure, that's group fights, just like Pfarewell, Skysforzando and all them will get you kills too, I'm talking solo fights, and in groups, the question is 'is your song necessary to kill people' 

    the answer is 'no your song is not necessary to kill people' 
    Okay, let's see all those Glamourist, Dramaturgy and Ecology kills y'all. No songs! Tarot you can come too, oh wait you have Soulless so you have a clear advantage in this argument. Why can't everyone just be Tarotist!

    EDIT: So seriously though, you're telling me you don't need Drunkenfool to kill someone with Soulless by yourself. You're not using some skill to hold them down that's only available to the top 5% of PK population. That's what you're telling me.

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  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,130 Transcendent
    Guys, let's keep this civil before I get a warning for being here.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    No, it's technically not 'necessary', because you can bash someone to death, always. That's quibbling on grade with taking mentions of something being 'useless' as meaning "has no use whatsoever, no matter how tiny, in absolutely all situations ever" and spawning arguments on those grounds. So no, it's not necessary to have your song to kill people. Technically. With a really strict meaning of all the words involved. Because that's a helpful addition to a discussion.

    Repeat of my comment about shifting back and forth between scenarios here. 
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    There's a log of me killing Caerlyr with soulless without drunkenfool on the forums

    There's a reason people say bards are class that requires the least investment to get involved in group fights.

    @Enyalida - I killed people in both groups and solo with crowcaw spam as well, just like @Elanorwen pulled off dysbaricpressure on people without curing. Wobou's curing iirc wasn't ever completely finished and had pretty gaping holes that could be taken advantage of. It's more like you probably caught him by surprise than you really did something super awesome. That still doesn't mean your song is required to meaningfully take part in group combat. 

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,930 Transcendent
    I don't count killing Caerlyr as sufficient evidence, sorry.

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  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess Member Posts: 2,927 Transcendent
    Synkarin said:
    There's a log of me killing Caerlyr with soulless without drunkenfool on the forums

    There's a reason people say bards are class that requires the least investment to get involved in group fights.

    @Enyalida - I killed people in both groups and solo with crowcaw spam as well, just like @Elanorwen pulled off dysbaricpressure on people without curing. Wobou's curing iirc wasn't ever completely finished and had pretty gaping holes that could be taken advantage of. It's more like you probably caught him by surprise than you really did something super awesome. That still doesn't mean your song is required to meaningfully take part in group combat. 
    Actually, I tested dysbaricpressure on someone with a pretty solid system - @Ushaara. As far as I am aware, he uses M&M. He came up with one way that worked and I came up with another way that worked. There was A LOT of illusion spam in both cases, but that's the way the cookie crumbles. As to others, one person I've killed in a live combat situation with dysbaric was on Crown. The other, I wouldn't even begin to guess.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    We've established that only a tiny subset of skills are literally REQUIRED to take part in group combat. Arguably, there is no skill in the game that is required to take part in group combat: all you need is a set of enchants, and you can contribute to group combat.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,613 Transcendent
    To be honest I've never thought "if only we had a song up, we totally could have won that" when it came to our bards in group combat.

    It's almost always, "wtf why did you not pfifth".

    So in the context of groups, song really doesn't matter IMO.

    Solo, not so much the case, but the most important music skills aren't songs is all I'll say.
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here Member Posts: 3,216 Transcendent
    Good, then fugue is fine and doesn't need to be changed

    Problem solved

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ShaddusShaddus , the Leper Messiah Outside your window.Member Posts: 8,130 Transcendent
    I'm far from the best bard combatant ever, but it's always been my favorite class in Lusternia, and I dare say I do better with it than any other class. I agree with Shuyin in that songs do help, and they can make a difference, but things like p5 and aurics can make a lot bigger difference.
    Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,930 Transcendent

    Synkarin said:
    Good, then fugue is fine and doesn't need to be changed

    Problem solved
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  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk Member Posts: 1,659 Transcendent
    edited January 2015
    I work 11 hours and this thread goes on for four pages and I probably missed my chance to say things. I only read the first page (at this point, I'll catch up), but wanted to say:

    This is why I went deaf most of the time as a bard. I don't want to get fugued. Go deaf, sit in stanza 7 or 8 (or sit in stanza 8 and put your deathsong in stanza 7).

    Melders could set up their meld and Earthquake or equivalent skill and regain the power used (9 power total) in 72 seconds, their meld lasts for 900+ seconds.

    Bards could use 3 power encore and get their song up in 12 seconds, and recover the power in 24 seconds total, their song lasting for 200+ seconds.

    Nihilists and Celestines use 5 power to get their thrall back, have to invest a power (4 second eq), have to wait 40 seconds to regain 10 power so they could use Scourge/Wrath, and wait 80 more seconds until you are able to fight again(both are power intensive classes and all kills require power outside of soulless), for a grand total of 120 seconds of constant webbing, running, timeslipping and hoping you don't kill my demon again. Oh, and their ent would use up all their double attacks in 80 seconds, is easier to kill or take out of a fight than a song or a meld, and is the only thing that requires an extra power investment on top of an initial power investment to become useful. Oh, and when you damage them enough (6-8 hits, it died in 9 to my undeffed symbol), they shield every other attack. So, the demon would attack you, 8 seconds later, shield, 8 seconds later, attack, 8 seconds later, shield, and so forth. Oh, and neither class can kill you without their angel or demon unless you are unlucky (scabies/epilepsy hit, fail to move on carcer before soulless) or stupid (didn't run during inqui chain). Report 819!

    Fugue is just annoying at how effective it can be. Octave, on the other hand, is one shitty mechanic.
    Post edited by Silvanus on
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • SilvanusSilvanus The Sparrowhawk Member Posts: 1,659 Transcendent
    Ok, so I read the thread, it was a lot of hooplah over not much. Bards are great, exception of Octave's war against Gust.

    I highly recommend going deaf always. Being unable to hear bards is far more useful than listening to allies songs, who you will probably end up in a different room of at one point, due to rad, or beckon, or pit, and if you didn't have deafness up, you might get pfifth right away. Not fun.

    Also, Caco songs are pretty flippin awesome in group combat and could easily swing large fights, I'd just blankchord and watch the Carillon bells toll.
    2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
    2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,930 Transcendent
    Actually, going in undeaf seems to be the way to go. If you can suffer the passives, and they use balance pfifth or deathsonging you, you can immediately put up earwort at your leisure and walk on your merry way.

    I like being undeaf. I have a heal and cure song. Let me have my healcure song.

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  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 793 Mythical
    edited January 2015
    It's earache + pfifth that's deadly.

    Good fighters (/opinion) run undeaf so they can combo eat earwort/tumble when they need to get going. 

    Edit: Also, blanknote is also so fast that deafness provides only the most mild protection from fugue.

    I think leaving the song at stanza 7 and suspending it if you get fugued is probably the way to go, since fugue is significantly faster than reprise.
    To me you're forever the kick runner from 3 years ago, the guy who does domoths when no one is online and whines that he's got no competition, and the guy that use to only turn up to fights when the numbers favoured him.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 2,930 Transcendent
    edited January 2015
    https://www.dropbox.com/s/7ga706ympy86vjc/fugue.html?dl=0

    This is kind of inadmissible and I should've turned timestamps on, but here's a little something to pique your interest.

    EDIT: Might get a proper log up later.
    Post edited by Maligorn on

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  • SaeshSaesh Gods Posts: 268 Divine
    Maligorn said:
    I think the general consensus for Fugue is that it needs to stay for counterplays (despite the existence of captivate audience) but needs a change in how it works.

    What I need to know now is the opinion of @Ieptix and @Saesh, and whether this is something to focus on for the Overhaul. My next target as far as reports go was meant to be Glamours and weeding out redundant affs, but Fugue is kind of discouraging to have to explain to an upcoming bard warrior.
    My opinion is that you have bigger fish to fry with the overhaul changes that are not fugue related. 

  • TalanTalan Member Posts: 1,000 Transcendent
    It would be a bad idea to remove or change fugue. Please listen to @Synkarin, who is right about everything except crowcaw.
    #NoWireHangersEver

    Vive l'apostrophe!
  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice Member Posts: 2,628 Transcendent
    CROWCAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAW!!!! <3
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


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