Warrior Combat Proposal - Final (almost)

EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
I've went ahead and gone through Shuyin's proposal and combined it with previous ideas for the Final Warrior Combat Proposal. (Okay, maybe final is wishful thinking.)

Anyway, please take a look and give us your feedback. If there's no major issues, this will probably be what we will substantially go with.

One thing I don't think we need is to have static effects for wounding level (i.e., head increase blackout, chest increases stun, etc.). I think they can vary from skillset to skillset which makes designing more flexible.
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Comments

  • DaganevDaganev Member Posts: 755 Master
    What is the reason behind the design decision to have two afflictions doing the same thing?
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 1,335 Mythical
    If I am understanding this correctly, the 10 (really 9 because DamagedThroat is listed under both wound types) will be what is cured by restorative ice? You talk about blackout, will this still be an allheale thing or was the plan to get rid of allheale as well? Also, there is no longer a left/right to limbs - it is just legs or arms?
  • DaganevDaganev Member Posts: 755 Master
    8, there are also two 12 sec instant kills.
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    They're divided between cut and blunt so they are similar, though again, as I've asked several times, if you have ideas for replacements, feel free to share! So far, I haven't really heard of good replacement ideas that I thought would work.
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  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    What's the underpinning mechanic here?
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Hrm, Estarra, I've not taken a look in detail, yet, but just from a cursory glance, I have a couple of questions:

    1) What's the wound system this is based on of, Shuyin's? Ushaara's? No change from current?
    a) Is it built via set amount of hits, does it have a cap as Shuyin suggests?
    b) For the non-static effects you mentioned in your opening post, how is it going to work out if there are two warriors of different specs attacking you? A PB and a BM are both cutting specs, and it is a 1v2, and they've gotten your arm to heavy and your chest to heavy, so if the both of them have different "tables" of passive wounding effects, will both apply? How is it going to be tracked?

    2) MutilatedArm/Leg is classed as a cutting affliction and BrokenArm/Leg is classed as a blunt affliction. But if I'm reading Shuyin's proposal right, he's intending for MutilatedArm/Leg to be a more severe form of BrokenArm/Leg, with both not tied to one damage type, and available to both (because it is important for every warrior to get access to arm and leg hindering) and at the same time, in the final spreadsheet, both Broken and Mutilated are available to certain specs - so can we assume these, at least, are not tied to a specific damage type?

    3) Just to confirm, because I see maneuvers are no longer in the spec skillsets, the afflicting system will be what Shuyin suggested, specific commands to activate specific afflictions, right? Where you use jabs and swings (targeted at one body part, not the current swings) to build wounds (cutting or blunt, based on your spec) and then a specific command or tag added to the command to activate afflictions, right?
    a) In that case, will ice cure both wounds and an affliction? Or just one or the other? 

  • DaganevDaganev Member Posts: 755 Master
    Its hard to offer suggested replacements without understanding why there needs to be two slots filled up with the same result.

    Is the issue that there needs to be an affliction for each spot, but some afflictions are needed for strategy that it requires them taking up multiple spaces?
    Would it make more sense to move the "stronger" and needed by all warrior afflictions to effects , or to make the 10 afflictions not dependent on cutting/blunt?
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited May 2015
    Ah, Daganev's comment helped me see that there does appear to be a trend for an affliction for each body-part, and then for each damage type. I think I would also prefer Daganev's suggestion, to not force ourselves to make afflictions dependent on cutting/blunt, for, as mentioned before, the ease of converting monks as well. I don't think we really need to tie all the ten afflictions to bodyparts as well - some, like DamagedThroat, would make sense to only be available on head, but others, like the bleeding/bruising ones don't have to be.

    As for ideas to replace the timedinstas, one thing I noticed about the list of afflictions in this thread is that there is a marked lack of hinder beyond the broken/mutilated affs. And those are not available to every spec, which makes those specs without it decidedly lacking in the hinder department. Of course, not all specs need top-tier hindering, depending on what else they are given (like stun effects etc) but I think it would not hurt to convert one of the timed instas to a torso based prone that can be given to some of those specs that don't have access to mutilated legs.

    SeveredSpine in Shuyin's list of afflictions would fit that bill very well indeed. It can thematically go on chest or gut, though traditionally, and most appropriately, probably gut.

    To replace the other timed insta, a chest based cure hinder or command denial might be a good idea - with the new four-way cure blocking affs, it's now more difficult for warriors to capitalize on DamagedThroat even if they land it. Shuyin has fracturedskull in his list for that, and I don't think that's a bad idea, and Rivius mentioned an asthma-version for warriors which was shot down (but which I personally don't have a problem with either). If both of those are somehow problematic, we could use the severedphrenic effect (% chance of making a smoke fail, instead of a full block of smoking), though in the past severedphrenic was not very effective at doing what it was supposed to do. If we would prefer a different effect, I have one we can consider:

    DamagedLungs Every 5s left uncured, throws off smoking balance for 0.5s. If already off smoke balance, adds 0.5s to the recovery time.

    The idea is the same as FracturedSkull or CallpsedLung or SeveredPhrenic, by interfering with smoke curing internal afflictions, slickness may stay for longer, or some internal aff, like haemophilia, may allow a bit more bleeding to build, contributing toward forward momentum. Could be something given to the more affliction orientated spec, BMs, to help contribute to their goal. With the proper instakills in the skillsets, there really is no need for a timed instakill aff.

    Edit: Oh, I just realised internal affs are cured by purity dust, not smoking. Sorry for the mix up. Well, that makes it even harder for a warrior to capitalize on DamagedThroat, because they have no access to anything more important than slickness on the smoking list. Well, a smoking block/hinder can still work, though a purity dust block/hinder will possibly be a better choice, I think.

  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy Member Posts: 1,681 Transcendent
    edited May 2015
    I know I sound like a broken record, and am probably the only person saying this, but I really just am not 100% happy with this proposal. I understand and appreciate Shuyin put a lot of work and thought into it, but I feel like it takes away elements of warrior combat that I truly loved.

    1) I really prefer we keep a swing and strike mechanic that separates guaranteed, but less immediately deadly affs and stronger, but more chancy affs. Yes, I know we seem to want to get rid of the RNG, but the swing RNG really wasn't too horrid as is and is a decent mechanic to keep. Being able to just pick a body part and hit it for whatever your desired effect is, all the time any time, feels too linear.

    2) I really don't think sitting on 10 static affs is really the best strategy. I preferred elements of Ushaara's proposal, the last proposal and proposal I. Namely that you activate unique effects with increased wounding, and that you generally have 10 standard affs that just represent the type of wounding on that body part. In this way, the effects can be as varied as our afflictions are now. We get to keep flavour and the very different strategies across the specializations.

    Overall, I don't think completely abandoning what we have now is necessary. We have a very good system in place that could be tweaked to fit the new system. As it is right now, warriors feel unrecognizable to me.


    Whatever you guys go with, I'll go along with it too though, but I'm just stating my own, rather strong personal feelings on this so that it's at least said.


    In any case, suggestions were brought up to replace the 12 second instas. Severedspine is used in several places right now and is already a Cavalier insta-requirement. It's also a useful affliction because it can keep someone from doing anything much until it is cured, which plays some synergy into that insta.

    Collapsedlung could have an effect on smoking, or periodic blackouts, or both as it does now.

    These are already warrior staples! Don't throw away everything we got, because we got good stuff! :)
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    We can't please everyone, as you know. This will probably be the direction we go.

    As for severspine, it seemed odd to me that we'd have 2 forms of paralysis, but we could just change paralysis across the board so the only cure would be apply ice to torso.
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  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    I wouldn't mind if someone posted suggestions for 10 neutral (neither cut nor blunt) afflictions but categorize them as 2 per body part.
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  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent

    Estarra said:
    We can't please everyone, as you know. This will probably be the direction we go.

    As for severspine, it seemed odd to me that we'd have 2 forms of paralysis, but we could just change paralysis across the board so the only cure would be apply ice to torso.
    Severedspine is a delayed-cure paralysis, Estarra. There are 4 seconds between applying ice to it and the cure going through. It serves a very different purpose to normal paralysis. Please do not make normal paralysis an ice-cure. It is fine to have 2 forms of paralysis that are cured by different things, and which serve different purposes and niches - you don't have to make it so that the only cure for paralysis is ice. You need to understand that the same effect stacked on the same cure balance is very rarely a good idea, and usually makes things spiral out of control very quickly.

  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    Shuyin's proposal said "Paralysis cured by ice" so that is what I was thinking it was, not a delayed cure. I'll think about it.
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  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited May 2015
    Well, I'm not 100% sure whether Shu wanted his SeverdSpine to be delayed, though I did ask him in the previous thread and he did say he sorta wanted to keep those that had delay cures with their delay cures. It can probably work without the delay cure, but you'll want to hit him up for the specifics, if he has any.

    Either way, normal paralysis should definitely stay on dust, please.

  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,613 Transcendent
    edited May 2015
    My initial suggestion for all delayed cures to retain that mechanic, though I'd prefer we either make all ice cures delayed or none of them for simplicity.

    Ps still formulating thoughts at work, will reply later re: whole thing
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  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    I like simplicity!
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  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    edited May 2015
    Let me reiterate what I'm looking for. Either (1) 5 cut and 5 blunt afflictions, 1 per bodypart, or (2) 10 neutral afflictions, 2 per body part. If you want to list them here, we'll look over them. If we don't see any suggestions, we'll go with what does fit.

    I also like ice cures either to all be delayed cures or all be instant cures.
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  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    edited May 2015
    Here's a possible affliction list I've put together, kind of a combination of Estarra's and Shuyin's lists and a couple existing afflictions. Optionally we could scale up the effectiveness of some of the afflictions based on wound level, e.g. increased bleeding from internal bleeding with higher gut wounds, or longer blackout from collapsed lung with more chest wounds, etc. I concur with Estarra about having all ice affs either be instant or delayed cures, am largely ambivalent to which we go with (there's always the option of trying out both ways, as well).

    EDIT: These are neutral afflictions, not split via cutting/blunt (though some are obviously more thematically appropriate for one or the other).

    Head
    ----
    DamagedThroat - Blocks drinking
    DamagedSkull - Random chance to block commands (stacks with stupidity)

    Arms
    ----
    BrokenArm - Functions same as basic broken limb now
    MutilatedArm - Functions same as ampuated limb now, stops parrying, cures into BrokenArm (if we go with instant ice cure)

    Legs
    ----
    BrokenLeg - Functions same as basic broken limb now
    MutilatedLeg - Functions same as amputated limb, stops stancing, cures into BrokenLeg (if we go with instant ice cure)

    Chest
    -----
    CrushedChest - Periodic EQ loss, increased damage from bruising
    CollapsedLung - Celerity (movement) malus, periodic blackout

    Gut
    ---
    InternalBleeding - Periodic increase in bleeding level
    InternalFailure - 12s timed instakill
    Post edited by Ieptix on
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  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    I'm fine with Ieptix's suggestions! (But please anyone else can add alternate suggestion--would prefer you make a complete list rather than just saying change X to Y.)
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  • TauTau Member Posts: 106 Adept
    Estarra, I want to thank you for your patience. I hear a lot of "I don't like X," and I also see a lot of you asking for options on things you're open about, and then not a lot of suggestions put forward on whatever the problem was.
  • EnyalidaEnyalida Nasty Woman, Sockpuppeteer to the Gods Member Posts: 4,386 Transcendent
    What? There have been pages and pages of detailed suggestions, including full spreadsheets from at least three unique sources.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    edited May 2015
    Ooh, making all the ice cures delayed will have pretty interesting impacts, that I think might not be a bad idea, too. For sure, adjustments will need to be made, and I think things will likely fall on the side of too-good for a while after the changes. It does, however, make locks more viable for warriors, which, until this point, has been a big problem they face going into the new system. I think it's definitely something we can work with.

    As for the list of afflictions, all the ideas we have been throwing around in this thread have largely been in agreement with one another regarding the make up of most of the affliction list - just that I don't understand why we always move back toward timed instakills. With Estarra's newest spreadsheet, where Shuyin's ideas for instakills are pretty much all kept intact, warriors have at least one, some with two instakills in their skillsets. There is absolutely no need for a timed instakill affliction at all. Going with Ieptix's list, I suggest the following small tweaks (changes I am suggesting are in bold):

    Head
    ----
    DamagedThroat - Blocks drinking
    DamagedSkull - Random chance to block commands (stacks with stupidity)

    Arms
    ----
    WeakendArm - Clears all parrying upon affliction, prevents parrying commands from working while it is uncured
    MutilatedArm - Functions same as ampuated limb now

    Legs
    ----
    WeakenedLeg - Clears all stancing upon affliction, prevents entering stances while it is uncured
    MutilatedLeg - Functions same as amputated limb


    Chest
    -----
    CrushedChest - Periodic EQ loss, increased damage from bruising
    CollapsedLung - Celerity (movement) malus + prone and 1s stun upon hitting the "Don't be hasty" message, periodic blackout
    OR
    CollapsedLung - Minor damage upon movement (~200?), periodic blackout

    Gut
    ---
    InternalBleeding - Periodic increase in bleeding level
    SeveredSpine - Paralysis until cured (Replaces InternalFailure, the timed instakill)
    -------------------------------------------

    Reduced movement speed alone is fairly useless - if the idea behind it is something to allow the warrior to chase, then something to actually stop the opponent is needed. Alternatively, a disincentive for moving will work as well, which are both the reasonings behind my suggestions for CollapsedLung.

    Next, if all the cures are going to be delayed, then there is no need for the Broken/Mutilated limb afflictions to double up on preventing standing. The amputated/tendon/mangled effects we have can simply be rolled into MutilatedArm/Legs. In fact, it would be a very bad idea to have doubled up delayed cures for preventing standing, and also delayed standing-prevention given to poisons. These would make things pretty ridiculous indeed. If we're going with delayed cures for everything, then this will be a must-have change to the affliction list. Instead, something for the warrior to use to bypass defenses can, again, help build their forward momentum without stacking unreasonably, and changing the poisons dendroxin and calcise to give those instead of a delayed-cure standing prevention will be much more manageable.

    To make sure the afflictions are separated, removing the stance/parry blocking effects from Mutilated will further inject strategy into the warrior's gameplay, giving weakened (or broken, or whatever name you want to go with) arms/legs a clear purpose and place to be in the new warrior affliction list.

  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 560 Fabled
    Killing brokenarm/leg in its current form has some pretty big effects outside physical classes(unless you wanna do stuff like attach weakenedleg to crucify? That seems weird though). Keeping them and giving them a delayed cure gets the same issue.
  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    Ahhh. I actually didn't think about that. Good point. Well, if broken limbs are becoming a delayed cure, crucify will definitely need changes too. We COULD go with an exception just for broken arms/legs, but, well, exceptions are messy and all. Keeping it simple and not having exceptions is a good design decision, but it does shake up things quite a bit.

  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me. Member Posts: 1,613 Transcendent
    Actually with the removal of ecto I don't really see as big of a concern with crucify. Also I figured the nihilists would change it anyway.

    I get the idea though.
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  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    Note that there are quite a few non-knighthood/kata skills that give broken arm/leg currently, which was my motivation for keeping that in place alongside mutilatedarm/eg (and having mutilatedarm/eg cure into brokenarm/leg - in fact, there's a possibility we might make those afflictions mutually exclusive if we were to go with that so it works similar to existing arm/leg affs). However, if we go with the delayed cure on all ice afflictions, we'll probably run into issues with those generic afflicting abilities balance-wise anyway, so that's probably not a huge reason. I'm cool with Lerad's changes to arm/leg affs, with broken arms/legs being generally replaced with the mutilated version (possibly just calling it broken arm/leg if we're not having functionally two levels of the aff).

    For collapsed lung, I'm good with your first idea. The second one I feel is similar to Estarra's idea for bruising, so I'd like to avoid doubling up on the same effect there, so the first one is good.

    Regarding the timed instakill on gut, I'd like to move away from that to some other effect, though Estarra had some concerns about doubling up on the paralysis effect, since it's essentially the exact same affliction in two different cure groups. Damaged skull has a somewhat similar issue with stupidity, but the difference there that they can stack with each other for stronger command denial. Do you have any ideas we could use for a replacement for internalfailure that would serve to meet similar goals as severedspine, but with an effect that isn't basically copy-pasted paralysis? (Can keep with severed spine as the theme if you want, but with a different effect).


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  • IeptixIeptix Member, Moderator, Gods Posts: 819 Divine
    edited May 2015
    Ok, so following some long discussion with the envoys, I've put together a revised list of afflictions:

    Head
    ----
    DamagedThroat - Blocks drinking
    DamagedSkull - Random chance to block commands (stacks with stupidity)

    Arms
    ----
    WeakenedArm - Remove and block parrying, 1/4 universal resistance malus
    MutilatedArm - Functions same as ampuated limb now, minus the extra bleeding and limb is still targetable.

    Legs
    ----
    WeakenedLeg - Remove and block stancing, 1/4 universal resistance malus
    MutilatedLeg - Functions same as ampuated limb now, minus the extra bleeding and limb is still targetable.

    Chest
    -----
    CrushedChest - Periodic EQ loss, increased damage from bruising
    CollapsedLung - Celerity malus, stun+prone on hitting hasty message, periodic blackout

    Gut
    ---
    InternalBleeding - Periodic increase in bleeding level
    DamagedOrgans - Increased balance times for ice/dust/slush/steam (e.g. damaged kidneys/liver can't process the medicine).

    I'd still like to have a lot of the effects for the afflictions scale with wound level, so we can keep them general enough to use outside knighthood when needed but still allow knights/monks to get stronger affliction effects, but I need to pass that by Estarra still so for now the effects are static.

    EDIT: The aff that'd be given in general limb break cases outside knighthood/kata would be the weakened limb version - the DMP malus was added to make it useful in the general case, instead of it only being a stance/parry negation.
    7c95dbc25a4a9ae292cccb899a49a79b18529207e135ebccd89c0877d386ebea
    ALL HAIL THE MIGHTY GLOW CLOUD.
  • EstarraEstarra Administrator, Moderator Posts: 1,076 Creator
    Enyalida said:
    What? There have been pages and pages of detailed suggestions, including full spreadsheets from at least three unique sources.
    I'm asking for suggestions HERE that are within the parameters that I set. You know that I've seen all the previous spreadsheets and suggestions but we've moved on from that and now is the time to start consolidating and either tweaking or reiterating your suggestions. Good grief.
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  • TarkentonTarkenton Traitor Bear Member Posts: 2,555 Transcendent
    @Estarra, it'd likely help to read the post prior to the one that you're quoting.  I don't believe the response was directed at you, but rather at @Tau.
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  • LeradLerad Member Posts: 2,405 Transcendent
    I think most of us are very grateful for having so many avenues to express our opinion and engage with the admin throughout this process. I most certainly am, at least. Whichever way things get decided, at least I know my opinions were heard and considered.

    The new list that Ieptix put up seems very well-rounded, and gives plenty of options for differentiation for the warrior specs when added to the AB lists in Estarra's spreadsheet. We'll also want to keep in mind we will need to work with the Nihilists and other non physical classes affected by the broken->weakened limbs change, so that they don't get saddled with something entirely inappropriate to their kill strategies. I'm more than willing to offer one of my envoy slots with a report and also help think of suggestions to make sure they remain competitive, feel free to speak with your envoy or just send me a message or PM directly. The best thing about the proposed changes is the simplification of the wounds system and the rolling together of afflictions, I think. That will help make the learning curve of warrior combat (and those who have to fight against warriors) a less steep for newbies, probably.

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