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Kailanna said:

- I would strongly disagree with any push to ban the contemptible races from the city because it would be a hard deviation away from the entire Magnagoran philosophy. Like Malayn said above, Magnagora will never turn down a useful tool just because its a distasteful one. Additionally, if the Magnagoran goal is to dominate the Basin, that means all the contemptibles (along with everyone else) will eventually be Magnagoran. Finally, Mag is strongly based around a rigid hierarchy, and hierarchies need people at the bottom just as much as the ones at the top. 

Just to add to these reasons, also while a ban might lessen the number of people pursuing the route it wouldn't really stop it.

Serenwilde, for example, still gets people here and there wanting to play illithoid but the ban means either they just can't join, have to race change, or get booted. So we also get a bunch of the same arguments about it being unfair.

Any chance run_function can be updated (or has been) to return values? It can be worked around but it'd just be really nice

Loralai said:

I'm not a newbie, and I remember those warnings. It should be brought back, but I also think Mag should ban the races.

Magnagora would not ban something that can be beneficial, that is why contemptible status exists. You can serve without being a more ideal form, so long as you work for the Engine, and acknowledge that your status is naturally lower. A ban would be denying a tool the city could make use of. There is reason we do not implement complete bans, while more zealous organizations do.

Short of being forced to change an incredibly long standing rule or an exceptional amount of RP, I do not believe we would just up and change that.

Much like Uzriel, I just don't engage with contemptibles because I want to upkeep the viscanti noble rp/age old stance on merian/kephera/elfen, but also because me the player doesn't really enjoy rping stomping all over someone. I reached out to Sutekh oocly at one point to explain this and they were thankful and respectful for me letting them know (and they stopped reaching out looking for a reaction/fight). The hating those races is linked to our first patron, but also in established lore from the time after project cosmic hope, there's tidbits to be found in the Presidio. This is not just our current players liking an excuse to be dicks to certain people and hanging onto it for lolz.

Ignorance is one thing, on rolling that race in Magnagora, and I think most any of us would go out of our way to explain the stance to a character and offer them the chance to reincarnate (everyone gets a free one, not to mention they're all free until you hit level 31). If you make a choice to play that race after newbie-hood, then it's a deliberate choice to take on the laws and the IC stigma to go with it. Some people enjoy playing that, good for them. If you don't, however, then you should absolutely change the race, NOT expect the lore and characters to suddenly about face and welcome you.

Player feelings matter, and despite what people outside the org might assume or say, we actually are a largely drama free org. We tend to get along IC and OOC, we like to help each other out, there are so many very generous people who kit out newbies and oldbies alike with everything they need, we help each other level, I don't think I've seen anyone actively try to ruffle feathers outside of, sadly, contemptibles looking to be treated like they're not a contemptible.

I'd be fine with banning the races entirely. I think it's ok for orgs to have racial identities and the old race stats linked to classes (where it mattered way more) used to help cement that by actively giving benefits for being one of the org's linked races. Now they matter less mechanically, and waaaay more people have cameos and racehats are amazing - they mean you can have your mechanics and still present as whatever race you want for RP. There is frankly no need for someone to be a contemptible in Magnagora unless they want the RP. And if they want the RP, why are we being hated on for giving it?
 
Serenwilde don't let undead characters hang about the forest. It hurts my feelings that even though our alliance says I can harvest there freely, I'm asked to leave - shouldn't Seren consider MY feelings before their laws and RP? Celest ban illithoid and viscanti I believe? Shouldn't they consider the feelings of the player who wants to be there as one and let them stay and change their laws and views? Most of the game has a reason to hate/fear the taint, but as a player of a tainted race (viscanti) it hurts my feelings and I feel discriminated against, shouldn't the whole game stop and just ignore the hating taint and Magnagora part? 

I'm sorry you feel isolated, Loralai. People can and have played those races and seemed to enjoy it, but it's done with the full knowledge of being an eternal serf with no rights - but still a cog in the engine, just one we hide in the back and don't really like, but we'll use it. But as you said you are not a newbie so it's hard to feel a lot of sympathy for the situation you've landed yourself in through your choices. And there are rp options besides slapping on a hat - you can RP a redemption arc and a ritual and fully embracing the taint and transforming your race with it (makes sense to evolve into a viscanti for example). Others have come from different orgs as reviled races and done similar things. What sticks in my craw is, should players embrace the org they choose to play in and work within it, or should it be expected that orgs adapt to whatever the player wants to get out of it? 

Change may happen - I'm not saying it can't or never will, but it's something that shifts over time and with rp. The fact that anyone speaks to your character is a sign of that, old Mag it would have been unheard of, except to insult, order about or abuse. The fact that your GM is working on a plan despite the general feeling of the city, to make a path for contemptibles to progress and have tasks says a lot also, the fact that people allow you to join them hunting or fighting or dump power on you or whatever else speaks of the change that has happened over many years. Nothing is stopping the characters from going around individuals, garnering support, slipping in how archaic the laws are, look how good a cog I am maybe contemptibles can be reformed and accepted, and working on changing the laws, have people really consider their stance, etc. I just think it's unfair to expect us to suddenly go 'ok sorry being contemptible is unfun, let's just scrap it and love all the races'. How about, if its not your kind of fun rping as a contemptible, you change that status, either by changing your race (easy option) or trying to rp and bring about change (uphill battle but not impossible). Sutekh tried to force our hands and contest for GM. If he hadn't, and had kept chipping away for rights, things may well look different. He is the reason contemptibles can work on the epic, for example, and why they can have a lich seed in certain situations.

Fain even years after his departure certainly lives up to his teachings of conflict, hatred, and greed. He and his history are quite obviously the genesis of the policy.

I don't think bringing the Sutekh topic into this conversation does you any favors. There's a lot to unpack that I won't get into, but doubling down on being contemptible race publicly is not a good example for your argument. Mag is not going to just forget its RP because a person thinks their desires weigh more heavily than centuries of Mag RP and their Elder's wishes. They, like you by your own words, are not newbies. So it appears you enter into that race and RP with knowledge of how they are treated. It strikes me as odd to walk into a punch and then question to the punch you knew was coming.

I really don't want to interact with most people in Mag, because of the feeling that I'm just going to be pissing them off by doing so. 
I don't feel that way, for what it's worth. Interacting is more than welcome. I'd offer we just don't want a contemptible race flexing on their contemptible race and waving it around as if we should care. Maggots belong in the dirt, not riding on a tainted gas cloud with champagne.

If Magnagorans, generally, feel that there is no way that anyone could play a merian, kephera, or elfen in an interesting way and be of some benefit to the city... then just ban those races.
I don't feel that way. Many can and have played those races with interesting RP and also have contributed. Those that do have to accept that they will not get advancement opportunities in the city. Until Sutekh went off the deep end and tried to flex their racial RP to contest/advance in cityrank, they would have been a great example of such.

NPCs generally now respect race hats. Generally players respect race hats. There are a couple methods to check true race, but no one cares to in my experience. If your aim is to solve a problem rather than causing a stir: If you're absolutely set on being one of those races and choose not to change, buy a race hat, don't "flex" contemptible RP, and live your best life would be my advice. (Any number of Mags would just buy it for you, if that's an issue.) If you don't think this is possible... I'm merian most of the time for hunting bonuses (THE HORROR!)... If Fain came back tomorrow, I'd point at my race hat (and let's be real, the 50 other mask-like artifacts covering the face) and say, "Surely the mighty Red Masque, whose Masque is not really as such, would not begrudge me a myriad of secrets as well, right Lord?"

To address Loralai specifically, I'd say that I agree that Magnagora should just ban the races rather than dangle contemptible RP as an "option". I'd wager a guess and say that the non-contemptible players in Magnagora might find some passing interest in pretending-hating you, but at the end of the day I'm sure it's extremely exhausting to go against the grain of your own sensibility to do the contemptible song and dance. To say nothing of the ultra-depressing experience of being the contemptible player.

Double post but I think it’s worth saying that most Magnagorans are not being jerks to other Magnagorans (maybe old Magnagora was like that but it’s really not like that today). So saying we are being play mean discriminating is far from the mark.