manifestations

Dysolis · February 2014

I was wondering why the manifestations have a respawn rate of one month... that just seems like a major inconvenience to me.I've tried to on multiple occasions hunt down the manifestations and i've tried for three in game years or three real lie weeks and I've failed on each attempt. I think the respawn rate is way to high and should be changed to something else less inconvenient because what it's at doesn't work at all. Having all the organizations go for them at once is silly when only one or two organizations gets all four sands, maybe it would be possible to have more than two organizations to get all four sands. Just lower the spawn rate to a normal respawn rate like killing a lizard which would come back in a day its killed. I'm just throwing an idea out there and if anyone has anymore ideas or thinks its fine the way it is just post them here. I think the way it is now though would cause a lot more frustration then it is rewarding because the more orgainzations we add the less chances of a certain organization will get four sands or any sand for that matter especially if an individual wants to camp the manifestations the month before and get rid of any orgainzation the chance to get them.

Enyalida · February 2014

There are enough sands for more than just two orgs to get all four they need.

Lerad · February 2014

Camping the Manifestations the month before the sands spawn is the standard strategy for as long as I can remember, literally. In fact, you'd want to kill them, note their respawn locations, and then camp those locations for when they respawn the month before the sands spawn. It's not a one-man project, unless you have 48 hours or so to burn. It usually requires coordination with someone else, so that you can cover the respawn times without needing to stay up to ungodly hours.

Theoretically, the best way to get it done is to do it on an org level - get as many people as you can educated on what needs to be done, and how. And then have everyone remind each other when it is time to get into action. Naturally, the most organised org will likely be able to dominate all the sands or at least secure the maximum number of sands that they need. Considering the value of empowering aspects/lords, I don't see any reason to make it easier to procure sands without such effort and teamwork.

Karlach · February 2014

Even if they respawned every hour that wouldn't fix the problem.

You'd just have people camp on the 30th of the previous month and the 1st of the next. Sands don't respawn when the creature does.

Ssaliss · February 2014

So the "simple" solution is to have all manifestations and sands respawn on the change of month. That way, there'd be a race on the first to get the sands before anyone else. No need to camp out 48 hours in advance.

Karlach · February 2014

So it's first person to log on?

Nah, make it a random date during the month, so it's not entirely predictable but open during a window. Like Wildnodes.

Xenthos · February 2014

The suggestion I made a while back was to give manifestations a random respawn timer, so there is still some advantage to hunting earlier (fortune favours the prepared), but the earlier you do it the more likely you are to lose some of the corpses (and give other players a chance).

Splitting up their respawn times will also help tremendously. With a consistent respawn time comes the fact that one person can monopolize all of them for days in a row.

Dysolis · February 2014

so the strategy is to hunt them the month before and learn their respawn times? Like how early the month before?

Xenthos · February 2014

Uh, it is actually to hunt them days before and then reharvest them on their respawn. First person to do so wins.

This is why a bit more randomness in the process would be nice. Starting to gather them RL days early just won't be worthwhile any more.

Dysolis · February 2014

I like Ssaliss idea.

Steingrim · February 2014

Ssaliss said:

So the "simple" solution is to have all manifestations and sands respawn on the change of month. That way, there'd be a race on the first to get the sands before anyone else. No need to camp out 48 hours in advance.

I'm not sure this would be better. It would likely lead to the strongest group just going on a rampage. If the problem is distribution, I'm not sure your solution accomplishes that well.

There's probably a better way to spread things out. Xenthos' random respawn would do that.

Ssaliss · February 2014

Steingrim said:

Ssaliss said:

So the "simple" solution is to have all manifestations and sands respawn on the change of month. That way, there'd be a race on the first to get the sands before anyone else. No need to camp out 48 hours in advance.

I'm not sure this would be better. It would likely lead to the strongest group just going on a rampage. If the problem is distribution, I'm not sure your solution accomplishes that well.

There's probably a better way to spread things out. Xenthos' random respawn would do that.

I personally doubt any group is strong enough to instantly grab the 12 (I think?) manifestations before the others gets at least one (the one on their home plane, most likely). It does require you to have people around on the first though, but I don't think it'll be a worse situation than what we have today.

Karlach · February 2014

Sorry, but there are people who already schedule their playing around definitive timed events where you're absolutely guarenteed something will happen. Making it a random date in the month, wildnodes style, where you work with what you have online is a far better balance.

Ssaliss · February 2014

But with just randomising respawns, the deck is still stacked massively in favour for those who manage to kill them early on; they'll have the corpses, and they'll be able to see at a glance when they respawn. Even if corpses were made to vanish when killed (a'la ethereal essence critters), they'll still know when they were killed and when they can respawn.

If you're that dead-set against everything spawning on the first, how about a compromise? On the first, every manifestation vanishes, both dead and alive ones. They then get a randomly set respawn time that will make them respawn at any point during the month; they can respawn the minute after the day change, and they can respawn the very last minute of the 25th. Or, if you're worried about sands at that point, make the last respawn time the day change on the 24th/25th. That way, we will have a completely even playing field, without people gaining anything by pre-killing manifestations.

Karlach · February 2014

I had the despawn mechanic with them all being released on a random point in the month in mind myself.

So any corpses from the previous month will despawn at midnight on the first, and everyone just waits for the green light.

Xenthos · February 2014

That works too, might just be a bit more coding than a variable respawn timer. Either way, changes to how they work would be welcome. Having to "pre-prep" months in advance is somewhat silly, where the person who does it the earliest wins. It does not even take more than one individual, no org effort is actually required at present... and it feels like this is something that should be more org-based.

Pretty much any modification that shifts it away from what it is now would be appreciated.

Talan · February 2014

It's fine as-is. The people who remember to hunt them, get them.

Bashing for manifestations and bashing for power is one of the few ways in which individuals can do good in a big way for their orgs. I am opposed to any changes that make it one more instance where the prevailing zerg will win the day. There are many other methods of generating power that favor the orgs with the largest population and strongest team. I do not see why everything must work this way.

Double edit: I am surprised that you would disagree @Morkarion - did you not just tout the virtues of pre-prepping in another context in the Tweets thread? Why is it good strategy in one instance, and totally unfair in another? The people who put in the work get the 'win'. It works in ascension, and on a much smaller scale, it works here.

Xenthos · February 2014

It is not fine as-is, for this simple reason: it is not the people who remember to hunt them but instead the person. There have been many occasions where I started 2-3 days early and had every single manifestation (excluding Seren's).

An individual being able to lock down the value of all gathered essence for the entire coming year just isn't "fine" by any stretch of the imagination.

Talan · February 2014

We're talking about a recurring 12 day cycle. Failing to empower your aspects/lords/ladies in any given round is not gamebreakingly unfair.

I'm finding it difficult to not read the arguments as "I don't feel like worrying about it that far in advance, therefore change the rules so I don't have to."

Xenthos · February 2014

It is not "any given round," you know. You have been part of efforts to secure and lock down as many of the manifestations as possible yourself, so I am unsure why you are trying to dismiss it as an isolated incident. It is a regular yearly thing.

While you are trying to dismiss it out of hand, the argument you present does not address why you feel that making the situation more dynamic is worse than what we have now. If anything, adjusting it will allow an individual in an underdog / outnumbered org a greater chance to get a sand or two.

Talan · February 2014

I'm not dismissing it as an isolated incident - I'm saying that you get another chance every 12 days. I see manifestations around all the time. All I'm dismissing is the idea that 1 person has all the manifestations all the time. If you miss one game year, just jump in early at the next opportunity.

Yes, one person can potentially control them in any given round, if they are willing and able to diligently track/re-hunt them around the clock for several days. You know very well that it is also possible to interrupt this cycle by tracking (and possibly killing) aforementioned person to get your claim in. I'm pretty sure this is how we dealt with @Inagin when he was the reigning mani-hunter. We watched when he would hunt, and went up to look at the same times.

What you're actually asking for is to eliminate the possibility for many days' effort to net any benefits, and to narrow the window where effort is required to a more predictable time. This would basically make it no different than the days when people hang around expecting nodes or a revolt or flare... and turn astral/elemental into a killing field during these pre-appointed times.

Xenthos · February 2014

Not entirely. My own suggestion (a randomized respawn) would in fact still allow some benefit for early involvement (Ssaliss already pointed this out). It would, however, make it far harder to lock everyone else out.

On the other hand, some of the other suggestions provided would do as you say... and personally I feel that's fine. One idea is like the opening of Wildnodes where the quickest (not the strongest) prevail.

Nobody is asking to be able to murder aspects to take their sands and move them to your own (this would drastically favour stronger orgs and is not the intent of the system, and when it was suggested in another thread I was against it). However, I am all for making the collection system more dynamic and giving more people the chance to participate when the time comes.

Making it so one person is not able to dominate the entire process accomplishes that. There are many ways to achieve that goal, and it can be left partially as a prep-game or moved to more of a schedule based thing. I don't have a preference for which but I would like to see something adjusted here.

Karlach · February 2014

Talan said:
Double edit: I am surprised that you would disagree @Morkarion - did you not just tout the virtues of pre-prepping in another context in the Tweets thread? Why is it good strategy in one instance, and totally unfair in another? The people who put in the work get the 'win'. It works in ascension, and on a much smaller scale, it works here.

Pre-prepping, and holding a monopoly that if executed right cannot be broken, are very different things. Once you kill something you control the spawn timer, in essence, for as long as you can keep going.

Preparation for an event is one thing, having a complete lock down is another.

Talan · February 2014

Well. I did just tell you how to break into the 'monopoly.' It's not impossible, you just have to work for it. I have faith in you. If you dream it, you can be it.

Enyalida · February 2014

Theoretically, one dedicated person (or a small group, scattered across timezones) hunting the manifestations could potentially lock down sands for a large number of cycles, not just one or two. Other posters (@morkarion's last post) have gotten at this somewhat. We're not talking about isolated incidents, but a monopoly that cannot be broken for potentially limitless time periods.

It's impractical to stop other people from hunting the manifestations when the other person is the only party with knowledge of their respawns.

Steingrim · February 2014

Xenthos said:

It is not fine as-is, for this simple reason: it is not the people who remember to hunt them but instead the person. There have been many occasions where I started 2-3 days early and had every single manifestation (excluding Seren's). An individual being able to lock down the value of all gathered essence for the entire coming year just isn't "fine" by any stretch of the imagination.

You can't lock them down unless other people are going to let you or unless you hunt them every single weave. If you hunt them 2-3 days, someone can start 4 days earlier. Yes, you might lock out all most of them and then you get to decide if your allies share in your benefits of doing so. But how long are you going to maintain the pace? I'm not saying some tweak might not work, but I do tend to think I lean more along the opinion of Talan. I pay a fair bit of attention to manifestations and it is pretty rare that someone gets all 12.

That said, I wouldn't mind seeing additional ways to empower.

Enyalida · February 2014

Right... but then that person who hunts them 4 days earlier can lock them down by hunting them every single weave, indefinitly. There is close to nothing in game you can do to stop it, except hope they forget, are busy RL, or just decide to quit doing it. The reason it's pretty rare is that most people don't care that much, but every so often someone does crop up, and can grind the entire thing to a halt.

Steingrim · February 2014

Enyalida said:

Theoretically, one dedicated person (or a small group, scattered across timezones) hunting the manifestations could potentially lock down sands for a large number of cycles, not just one or two. Other posters (@morkarion's last post) have gotten at this somewhat. We're not talking about isolated incidents, but a monopoly that cannot be broken for potentially limitless time periods.

It's impractical to stop other people from hunting the manifestations when the other person is the only party with knowledge of their respawns.

Enyalida said:

Right... but then that person who hunts them 4 days earlier can lock them down by hunting them every single weave, indefinitly. There is close to nothing in game you can do to stop it, except hope they forget, are busy RL, or just decide to quit doing it. The reason it's pretty rare is that most people don't care that much, but every so often someone does crop up, and can grind the entire thing to a halt.

You can hunt them for 5, you can beat them to the punch, you can follow them around, you can set up watch on spheres. You can meld your area home area. You could even as CL not treat the people who were trying to empower your commune as if you were doing my character the favor, to the point where my character didn't feel it was even worth the effort to deal with your character and just gave to other groups..

Yes, you can post back that people will just hold them for 6 weaves. You could, but the admin have the tools to see that just isn't what is going on here. I am certainly not looking for manifestations every weave or that early and usually find enough to empower gaudi (though not always). This last year I looked and look and just happened to find four. Three or four years ago none.

Elanorwen · February 2014

Eh, I normally start fairly early... and most times, I call it a day at 8 manifestations. I empower all our lords and then split the rest between our friends. This year, I had 8 and then ended up losing 2 at the last possible moment due to something popping up just when they were about to respawn. So obviously, even with a lockdown, it is not necessarily 100% chance to get them all. Pretty sure someone else was going after them at the time I recovered the one out of the set of three I had and lost two. It happens, you live with it. I find it peculiar that orgs don't hunt down ones on their own plane at all... or so it seems.

Arimisia · February 2014

I am with @Elanorwen, timing these things is not perfect. I started last Friday tracking and I lost and gained different ones every day. Only reason I got one of them timed was because I caught Elanorwen killing it and was simply able to get there before her when it respawned. of the ones I started tracking on Friday, only one of them I ended up having by the time it was time to get sands.

Elanorwen · February 2014

Arimisia said:

I am with @Elanorwen, timing these things is not perfect. I started last Friday tracking and I lost and gained different ones every day. Only reason I got one of them timed was because I caught Elanorwen killing it and was simply able to get there before her when it respawned. of the ones I started tracking on Friday, only one of them I ended up having by the time it was time to get sands.

These things happen. I had the suspicion it was you... but eh, not going to complain about it. You win some, you lose some.

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