No, I'm fully aware of what they do, but what they do isn't protect a territory - it's protect a single room from very specific types of attack that are infrequent and ineffectual. They don't even serve to protect players in that location very effectively, just the mobs sitting in that room, which is of very limited use. We mostly keep large clumps of guards on our nexii for midbies to influence, not because we're scared of someone coming and killing Miakoda (or standing at our Ethereal nexus for some reason).
In other IRE games where raiding was more frequent, one of the things I enjoyed was figuring out effective guard layouts. I even setup scripts for it so that I could switch it up on the fly and shift holes in the defense.
So I'm not a fan of discretionary powers. I would prefer defense mechanisms that require more strategic and tactical thought. In fact, I would prefer more defensive possibilities than supermobs that get ever stronger.
Imagine being able to move there via orgbix and... instantly summon a giant clump of guards! Guards could stand to be a whole lot more interesting, and generally better at defending (home) territories from basic intrusion. Anyways, this is not particularly on topic.
We can try to guerrilla through it, but at some point, we will be subject to absolve, and it is absolve or be absolved.Especially true if the other side wants to go out of their way to ensure you have absolutely nothing, and cares about this more than having more of everything else for themselves.
The last few days, pretty much all my time's gone into domoths when I am logged in, and it is pretty draining. And we've only been trying to keep two! Imaging constant and perpetual conflict over all the domoths just feels ridiculous and utterly exhausting. This only gets worse as the pbase get themselves better jobs and have less time for the game.
I know I'm that loser kid that's part of that vanishingly small group of casual PKers, and I know
this is going to sound like a derailment, but I feel like this is
something of a big thing. Because this is really how it feels sometimes.
Like, "how dare you lift a finger to oppose us, northerners, let us
crush you with extreme prejudice" and then later get "man, you guys need
to work on your morale. Keep giving it your best shot."
Similarly, Magnagora and Glomdoring have built-in RP mechanics for merciless subjugation. I get that. But as player characters, I think there's a line where you should step back and be "well, hey, they're pretty beat up, maybe we won't insta-absolve them when we get the chance". Because it's difficult for us northerners to find optimal times to do these kinds of things (due to low population, especially low combatant population) while the southerners have the run of things with their superior numbers. It's a maturity thing for the "play to win" types, in my opinion. Lusternia's not going to look all that fun if you squelch out the conflict, and when it starts getting some life breathed into it, tightening your hold.
Am I asking for mercy? No. Am I asking for a little OOC foresight? I suppose. My opinion doesn't matter in the scheme of things, because I have very little impact on the combat sphere. I have heard telling of how New Celest was even worse about stomping Magnagora into the ground not too long ago; I wasn't around for it, but it seems rather lame that southerners would dish it back instead of learning from the mistake.
Main takeaway from this: Lusternia's population is thin, and it's only going to get thinner if you keep stomping out the competition with your superior numbers. Hope I didn't sound like a total ignoramus.
To be fair, this currently ongoing absolve is going on because we actually want Knowledge for this weekend, chances are we want Life too.
When you've got a giant FFA PK event ongoing, being able to control the +health and + int racial bonuses is unquestionably useful.
Other than that, the absolves are almost never targetted at the person holding them, but more a "You scratch my back, I scratch yours" mechanic. I absolve this so Mag or Gaudi can grab it, they'll do an absolve for me in return in the future. It's really about teamwork and mutual benefit more than anything else, if we need a specific blessing for a certain reason on a race/guild we help each other out, and it's more free power (this game really does have a shit ton of that if you stay on top of things, I agree with Daevos there)
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
We can try to guerrilla through it, but at some point, we will be subject to absolve, and it is absolve or be absolved.Especially true if the other side wants to go out of their way to ensure you have absolutely nothing, and cares about this more than having more of everything else for themselves.
The last few days, pretty much all my time's gone into domoths when I am logged in, and it is pretty draining. And we've only been trying to keep two! Imaging constant and perpetual conflict over all the domoths just feels ridiculous and utterly exhausting. This only gets worse as the pbase get themselves better jobs and have less time for the game.
I know I'm that loser kid that's part of that vanishingly small group of casual PKers, and I know this is going to sound like a derailment, but I feel like this is something of a big thing. Because this is really how it feels sometimes. Like, "how dare you lift a finger to oppose us, northerners, let us crush you with extreme prejudice" and then later get "man, you guys need to work on your morale. Keep giving it your best shot."
Similarly, Magnagora and Glomdoring have built-in RP mechanics for merciless subjugation. I get that. But as player characters, I think there's a line where you should step back and be "well, hey, they're pretty beat up, maybe we won't insta-absolve them when we get the chance". Because it's difficult for us northerners to find optimal times to do these kinds of things (due to low population, especially low combatant population) while the southerners have the run of things with their superior numbers. It's a maturity thing for the "play to win" types, in my opinion. Lusternia's not going to look all that fun if you squelch out the conflict, and when it starts getting some life breathed into it, tightening your hold.
Am I asking for mercy? No. Am I asking for a little OOC foresight? I suppose. My opinion doesn't matter in the scheme of things, because I have very little impact on the combat sphere. I have heard telling of how New Celest was even worse about stomping Magnagora into the ground not too long ago; I wasn't around for it, but it seems rather lame that southerners would dish it back instead of learning from the mistake.
Main takeaway from this: Lusternia's population is thin, and it's only going to get thinner if you keep stomping out the competition with your superior numbers. Hope I didn't sound like a total ignoramus.
This perspective demonstrates a lot about how drastically changed PK in Lusternia is, and through no fault of your own @Maligorn. You just don't know any different because the game you grew up in is a very different game than the one I grew up in. To say that players don't show restraint or OOC foresight shows a notable lack of knowledge (again, not your fault) about how the game was at one point. Conflict, or as some call it-griefing, is a shadow of what it once was. Anyone who knew PK when PK was thriving and robust with a large number of combatants would not say, and this is one of the few times I will speak on behalf of a lot of people, will not say players are not currently restrained and considerate. Or at least more so than they once were by a huuuuuge margin.
The irony is that these players never squelched out the conflict. It was actually booming. It was occuring all the time until a group of players who were once on top started to lose, and then complained to such an extreme degree that the mechanics of conflict began to shift dramatically. The mechanics then drove players away and we are where we are now.
Knowing what's best for the conflict environment also means knowing what the history of conflict is in this game. For as much as people complain about how "terrible" things used to be with the endless raiding, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Because that same terrible time was also when the population was higher, the pk was abundant, and the game was active. These are all things are now being complained about. Somehow, I don't think it's a coincedence.
That's not to say some changes weren't without merit and that everything about the PK glory days was good. Lord knows it wasn't, but we can't cry about low population and pk inactivity as a result of conflict pushing people out of the game when history tells us this is just factually not the case.
Comparing the current scenario to the situation from a year and a bit ago where raids on godrealms were daily and multiple, as well as prime raids on NPCs, guards and players who would grief newbies not necessarily to kill them, but hinder them with afflictions beyond their means and capacity to cure, is chalk and cheese. No one is close to griefing the way Celest was griefing Mag back then.
As Shuyin said, there's a sense of vengeance in being on top, but there's also a strong desire to never have yourself in that situation again. It's less about crushing them so they don't exist (and as Celina said, there's no data to support it) and more about making sure we don't get complacent and suddenly find ourselves on the wrong foot. Momentum in this game can shift very quickly and very easily, there are things ready to have a knock on effect if poked and prodded, its all about finding the key domino to knock over to set it all in motion.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Man, I'm showing my age. A year ago? Pffffffffffffft. I'm talking like 4-6 years ago when I was learning to PK. No one is griefing anyone anywhere near to how things are now. I'm talking not being able to step outside of your org without Narsrim and Talkan showing up to tag team you within 60 seconds, or empressing you into a locked kill room in the hives. Where Thoros and the rest of Mag raises a Fain shrine in the hidden room beneath the Celestia Pool of Stars, then melded the pool, and used pollute and invasion mobs to gank anyone who transversed before they got equilibrium back. Or Viynain and shuyin beast web+pinleg+ibululu-OP spiritsinger ganking people over and over. Or the roving gangs of Mag and Celest Axelords and Bonecrushers perma stunning urrrbody. Or when I used to meld all of Celestia s a BT and solo the population of Celest all day long.
Comparing the current scenario to the situation from a year and a bit ago where raids on godrealms were daily and multiple, as well as prime raids on NPCs, guards and players who would grief newbies not necessarily to kill them, but hinder them with afflictions beyond their means and capacity to cure, is chalk and cheese. No one is close to griefing the way Celest was griefing Mag back then.
As Shuyin said, there's a sense of vengeance in being on top, but there's also a strong desire to never have yourself in that situation again. It's less about crushing them so they don't exist (and as Celina said, there's no data to support it) and more about making sure we don't get complacent and suddenly find ourselves on the wrong foot. Momentum in this game can shift very quickly and very easily, there are things ready to have a knock on effect if poked and prodded, its all about finding the key domino to knock over to set it all in motion.
You guys are definitely right about me not having the history to compare to, except for a few inklings. But let me ask you this, has there ever been such a disparity in the history of Lusternia PK between active (or should I say, consistent) combatants between the two alliances, whatever they may have been?
EDIT: Because if there hasn't, that would explain the non-correlating data -- it's never happened before.
I understand that what we have now is only a shadow of what griefing and conflict used to be, and that what we have is by comparison rainbows and sunshine.
However, we are all looking at conflict in Lusternia at the moment as being broken. We don't have the population of old. We don't have the spread over orgs of old. We don't have most of the players of old, pkers and rpers alike.
We can talk about the good old days and how it was awesome and even want to bring it back, but without the same people for starters, we never will. Roleplay within the orgs has changed, people have changed. What we need to do is look at who and what we have NOW, and say 'how can we improve things with what we have to work with.'
Maligorn brings up a very very valid point. I honestly think if players were more oocly responsible and learned to restrain themselves once in a while, we might have room to grow healthier again. There is nothing fun about being crushed repeatedly. There is nothing fun about continuously losing. There's nothing fun about having inferior numbers, especially when you are watching your numbers slowly flow from your org to elsewhere too. It's demoralising, both IC and OOC. This is a game we play to enjoy. Who logs into a game just to inevitably lose until you can pick up some more numbers? Who wants to keep slogging at a game where the winners have the better mechanical benefits (like the absolves mentioned) that ensures they keep on winning?
I like to think we have issues with roleplay too, not just mechanical conflict. I know Magnagora for one has become so wishy-washy and hand-holdy I sometimes have to wonder if we're really tainted or actually been taken over by the Seren.
So we have problems in the game, as a whole. So what can we, as responsible PLAYERS who want to see this game we love succeed and grow, do to help it? How do we help the less populated orgs retain players and keep them from flocking elsewhere? Because let's face it, if we can't find a way to help it, all the mechanics in the world will mean nothing, because there will be no opposition to fight against in the first place.
It was a year and a half ago that all the Demon Lords were killed, Nil and Mag's Gods Temple were raided 24/7 (without an 8 hour respawn), that Celestians raided prime Magnagora to kill Tunika and Seritul, or the Captain to get to Old Celest to gather Spectres (which is only used by newbies, shows you the griefing attitude that they had).
You don't think the South has learned? The spheres have never been touched. No constant raids on your planes. No griefing you out of your Epic as often as possible (a couple times the rare sea battle that we won, Celest went ahead and raised the ship of the dead so we couldn't get the power). No magnagoran has been breaking into your city to remove all your statues. If you have a bash squad on Astral, does someone come in and Divinefire/Trueheal and overlink your sphere? (Mag hasnt done it, outside of maybe Munsia but no one can control that beast)
Yes, griefing was far more prevelant back in the day (guilty as charged) and far easier, but you don't fight fire with fire. A lot of the game seemed to have been setup to be one gigantic grieffest (dilute? Crow quest before Glom? Demesne summon into a statue?), and to a lot of players the environment seemed to suggest an endgame result.
Nor do I want to single out only the Celestians as being the griefers (they were the most recent), it does take allies to ensure that they were enabled the freedom of their griefing, and it does take a certain ally to sit there and not say anything about the over the top griefing , especially when multiple posts over these forums and the old forums were created about basically this exact same topic.
And yes, there has always been a disparity between the two alliances (outside of a 3 month period here and there), and this topic has been discussed for both sides consistently when one has been up and one has been down. Just look through some of the old posts.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
I'm not entirely sure where you're going with that Lavinya, there is significantly less griefing going on because players are taking that step-back mentality.
Unless you're suggesting OOCly that the south give the north free wins to artificially boost morale, maybe it's the way it was worded but that's how I read it, and my only reply there is no. I'm not willing to create a false illusion OOCly nor is it right ICly to go "Let's not win this one guys, they've had a rough year."
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
So what CAN the people in the more populated orgs do to support the game on the whole. I'm not sure why people seem to be an org IRL as well as oocly. I can hate Celest with a passion ICly, I can think some players are douchebags oocly, but can also reasonably consider the state of the game as a whole, and realise it loses something without the flavour of the city of Light being a prominent presence in the basin.
Celest is just an example.
I'm trying to provoke some thought. We know there are problems, no one is asking you to twiddle your thumbs and give pity wins, or stop trying. Instead of the attitude of 'nope, I like winning, not going to stop winning, they should just start trying to win more' which seems pretty prevalent, why can't we as players try and find ways to encourage conflict and competition, at least oocly? I'm actually looking for ideas here. We all love this game. Ignore whatever org you are in, what can we do to try and fix things overall?
Removing domoth absolve would certainly help moral at least. Beyond that, the other side just needs a flow of players (that are willing to participate).
Edit: and I don't think there's griefing going on, but also considering the original post before Vivet came from the other side of the alliance, it's pretty clearly not in a good or interesting state either.
I was chatting with a couple of people about this in the last week, it goes back to the discussion on mechanics and lack of knowledge and lack of people to teach newer players.
Quite frankly OOCly I'm not in an org mentality, and can be approached by anyone with questions or looking for pointers. Someone in Serenwilde helped me a lot when I was first really getting into combat, on the basis they wanted people to fight too, it's all about paying it forward in that regard.
The south has a lot of experienced fighters, a good number moreso than me, and most of us are pretty much chill to talk to when looking for pointers. The issue I've found is finding people willing to listen and learn.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
So what CAN the people in the more populated orgs do to support the game on the whole. I'm not sure why people seem to be an org IRL as well as oocly. I can hate Celest with a passion ICly, I can think some players are douchebags oocly, but can also reasonably consider the state of the game as a whole, and realise it loses something without the flavour of the city of Light being a prominent presence in the basin.
Celest is just an example.
I'm trying to provoke some thought. We know there are problems, no one is asking you to twiddle your thumbs and give pity wins, or stop trying. Instead of the attitude of 'nope, I like winning, not going to stop winning, they should just start trying to win more' which seems pretty prevalent, why can't we as players try and find ways to encourage conflict and competition, at least oocly? I'm actually looking for ideas here. We all love this game. Ignore whatever org you are in, what can we do to try and fix things overall?
Usually at this point, my understanding is, the IG Divine step in and stir up controversy for the orgs.
For example, if we magically had, say, a Nocht + Maylea push for doing the hai'Gloh (or a Hoaracle + Viravain push...), I can nearly guarantee this would shake things up and make things a bit different in the conflict landscape. Or, perhaps, if we had Terentia or Valtreth telling Celest to embrace the two cities that have escaped time, or to embrace both forests so that the fae can be brought to Raziela or some other such thing.
We have the Ascension events going on, and we have a combat overhaul in process. The result is a lot of divine not being extremely active in the view of their players, save Isune, Mysrai, and Nocht... I've heard Valtreth is relatively active as well, but have not seen it if they are. (Really, though, Viravain, I know you're an active Divine, please come out of hiding and tell your Order they're good little web weavers and then vanish again...)
I guess what I'm saying is, the solution isn't players on one side giving pity wins to the other (agreeing with @Morkarion here), and yes, @Lavinya, we do need some change.
We need player-driven events that aren't going to be shot down immediately. We may very well need, unfortunately, some OOC collaboration in order to have things shaken up. As much as people go "boo hiss OOC collaboration", if you want the political landscape to change, it needs to happen.
Which raises the question, can the players of the characters stop whatever dislike they may have for each other on an OOC level to allow their orgs as a whole to have some interesting RP shift. There's clearly a want for it. I know IG there are Mags who would rather ally with Hallifax than Glom or Gaudi, and that there are Gloms and Serens who want the communes to work together to purge the cities. I also know somewhere within Hallifax, like hard-coded in, I think a generator or something, there is something stating that forests cannot/should not be trusted at all. The lore is there for some of these things to happen. We need players who are willing to take that dive.
I apologize for any incoherency in what I've written above and would be extremely grateful for anyone willing to decode it.
I'd rather the political shifts happen ICly, I also question if the Divine should get involved in that regard. Gods and mortal politics rarely ever cross, I was always hoping that the Shikari/Isune stuff would lead to a Glom/Hallifax interaction as the two orders mingled (and I still have hope) but most Divine don't push for their orgs to head in a certain political direction.
There may be events unrelating to the Divine characters that cause contention, I always thought that the Anas'im'aeklas event was going to push us closer to Serenwilde but no luck. That could well have lead to a new shift, Magnagora taking their expertise to assist Hallifax (though I struggle to see a Mag/Celest juncture any time soon for IC and OOC reasons) while Glomdoring sides with Serenwilde, and Gaudiguch strengthens their NAP, thus giving Serenwilde experience to learn from.
But again, those orgs need the players willing to learn and want to improve, otherwise it's just artificially lumping people with dead weight and saying "You there, carry this." Sure it's a game for people to have fun, don't forget that those of us winning also would like to have fun, and being told to carry people who simply cannot be arsed is not fun. What happens there is the players rebel, cut ties and form stronger unions...
Which is how we got to where we are now in the first place.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Which most people in turn would be alright with, if it was made less of a pointlessly long slog for anyone but an ascendant to do.
Stage 3 needs to go, just saying. There really isn't that much point to it in the first place... or it needs to be shortened to a reasonable duration. If you survived stage one and two, chances are stage three will be a breeze because all the critters spawn at a much slower pace.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Personally phase 3 is a horrible thing and needs totally reworking to be something far more fun.
I always thought it should be a head to head between you and the opposing domoth holder. First to x points, killing a domoth mob subtracts 1 from their score and adds one to yours, instead of the current "enter the domoth room and afkautobash to victory." Of course if they're on crown, they're spawning 3 mobs at a time, if you're on base level, you're scoring one. So there's still the reason to keep yours upgraded as often as possible.
Of course to make it fair and balanced, that holder's org is still locked out, so the "bigger side" doesn't have the advantage of swarming numbers, unlike in current absolves. But you still have the concept of opposing domoths and rival challenges. Ultimately you're trying to protect your guy and stop their guy at the same time, so there's actually two different battlefields ongoing at once (which also stops mass swarming of numbers in one location)
If they win stage 3, you actually go down a tier (or lose it entirely) if you win, you go up a tier. If there's a time out, it goes into a dormancy for no gain/no loss.
Personally I'd like to see stage 2 be shorter, or also changed entirely. It's another game of have and have nots, you need people with bubblixes or travelships and often domoth victories aren't just about who has more people, but who has more means to get back up there quickly. Personally I'd fling the damn thing somewhere off prime on non org territory. Astral, the catacombs, (not Faethorn because :in before meld advantage arguments: heck, even Muud. Muud would be awesome.
But yeah, I'd gladly lose absolves, I've done three in the last week? They're almost as boring as stage 3.
Also, 15 minutes more is a slog? Honestly, you're up there for 45 minutes on a non TA in their own Domoth run, and an hour for a non seal Demigod, the whole Demiclaim thing is more a pain in the arse because by the time you've claimed/upgraded it and it's come out of dormancy, you'll have to upgrade it in the next 2 days or it falls back down again.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
The problem with absolves is the same as the problem with upgrading -- the domoth holder chooses when that happens. For some unfathomable reason, because all fighters love nothing more than the chance for a really good fight, these things almost never happen when the opposing team has any real chance of matching numbers.
Sarcastic Protip: If you find absolves boring, try starting them when the odds aren't 4:1 in your favor.
In general, when the teams are more even overall and when we're not in the middle of ascension, domoth absolves happen much less frequently. Upgrading is a chore, and people are more willing to live and let live when it means less work for them on the whole.
Making stage 2 even shorter is not the answer. This would narrow the window of opportunity for turnover even more than letting the incumbent choose the time of challenge does. I disagree that the issue of transportation is one of any consequence. Aethercraft is not just for flares and dragonhunts.
I think my biggest beef with domoths is that they're a game strictly for ascendants. I'd like see the ascendant bonuses removed in stage 2, and see basic-demi retention times raised to 100, or even the same 125 days. We've got over 200 demigods at this point. Wouldn't it be nice if some of them could participate too? The ascendant bonuses are so good right now that demis only get to claim when there's no other option, and then their domoths are handed off as quickly as possible. Wouldn't it also be nice if ascendants didn't have to be the only domoth slaves? Just imagine how much more time they'd all have to bash offerings for Isune.
I think the reason stage 3 is boring for Morkarion is that he is an ascendant warrior with nightkiss. Particularly at crown level, it can be pretty challenging for softer classes. It used to be pretty common to see repeated death for people the first time they did stage three at orb/crown. You don't see it so much anymore, cause it's only the same 10 guys who ever claim anymore, and they're pretty well practiced by now. They've all done it scores if not hundreds of times.
In my experiences here in Lusternia, as a 'winner' and a 'loser,' I've learned that there are some individuals who go above and beyond with their griefing and will always cause strife. There are some in any organization, some organizations have more than the other. Whenever one side is predominantly winning, the other side will feel slighted, griefed and moody about anything that ends up going against them, and will especially single out certain individuals they perceive as being griefers.
However, this has led me to conclude that the system does far more griefing of organizations than any player base is capable of. The current state of conflict has been the tamest it's ever been (and stale) and that there is a significant decrease in the griefing that is done, but the losing side is still feeling griefed/harrassed by losing all the time. I am probably the biggest griefer the South has, and I'm severely mild compared to what was done a year and a half ago.
Fix the system, you can fix conflict (without even needing an Overhaul). But, like has been said before, this topic has been brought up so many times before.. and ignored.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Comments
Bard guard, yo.
Also: villages, nexii, important mobs, etc. When's the last time someone killed your nexus guardian? Guess they are working!
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
So I'm not a fan of discretionary powers. I would prefer defense mechanisms that require more strategic and tactical thought. In fact, I would prefer more defensive possibilities than supermobs that get ever stronger.
Similarly, Magnagora and Glomdoring have built-in RP mechanics for merciless subjugation. I get that. But as player characters, I think there's a line where you should step back and be "well, hey, they're pretty beat up, maybe we won't insta-absolve them when we get the chance". Because it's difficult for us northerners to find optimal times to do these kinds of things (due to low population, especially low combatant population) while the southerners have the run of things with their superior numbers. It's a maturity thing for the "play to win" types, in my opinion. Lusternia's not going to look all that fun if you squelch out the conflict, and when it starts getting some life breathed into it, tightening your hold.
Am I asking for mercy? No. Am I asking for a little OOC foresight? I suppose. My opinion doesn't matter in the scheme of things, because I have very little impact on the combat sphere. I have heard telling of how New Celest was even worse about stomping Magnagora into the ground not too long ago; I wasn't around for it, but it seems rather lame that southerners would dish it back instead of learning from the mistake.
Main takeaway from this: Lusternia's population is thin, and it's only going to get thinner if you keep stomping out the competition with your superior numbers. Hope I didn't sound like a total ignoramus.
When you've got a giant FFA PK event ongoing, being able to control the +health and + int racial bonuses is unquestionably useful.
Other than that, the absolves are almost never targetted at the person holding them, but more a "You scratch my back, I scratch yours" mechanic. I absolve this so Mag or Gaudi can grab it, they'll do an absolve for me in return in the future. It's really about teamwork and mutual benefit more than anything else, if we need a specific blessing for a certain reason on a race/guild we help each other out, and it's more free power (this game really does have a shit ton of that if you stay on top of things, I agree with Daevos there)
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
I suppose it does come down to attitude but I don't think that such motivations are totally bad.
This perspective demonstrates a lot about how drastically changed PK in Lusternia is, and through no fault of your own @Maligorn. You just don't know any different because the game you grew up in is a very different game than the one I grew up in. To say that players don't show restraint or OOC foresight shows a notable lack of knowledge (again, not your fault) about how the game was at one point. Conflict, or as some call it-griefing, is a shadow of what it once was. Anyone who knew PK when PK was thriving and robust with a large number of combatants would not say, and this is one of the few times I will speak on behalf of a lot of people, will not say players are not currently restrained and considerate. Or at least more so than they once were by a huuuuuge margin.
The irony is that these players never squelched out the conflict. It was actually booming. It was occuring all the time until a group of players who were once on top started to lose, and then complained to such an extreme degree that the mechanics of conflict began to shift dramatically. The mechanics then drove players away and we are where we are now.
Knowing what's best for the conflict environment also means knowing what the history of conflict is in this game. For as much as people complain about how "terrible" things used to be with the endless raiding, you can't have your cake and eat it too. Because that same terrible time was also when the population was higher, the pk was abundant, and the game was active. These are all things are now being complained about. Somehow, I don't think it's a coincedence.
That's not to say some changes weren't without merit and that everything about the PK glory days was good. Lord knows it wasn't, but we can't cry about low population and pk inactivity as a result of conflict pushing people out of the game when history tells us this is just factually not the case.
As Shuyin said, there's a sense of vengeance in being on top, but there's also a strong desire to never have yourself in that situation again. It's less about crushing them so they don't exist (and as Celina said, there's no data to support it) and more about making sure we don't get complacent and suddenly find ourselves on the wrong foot. Momentum in this game can shift very quickly and very easily, there are things ready to have a knock on effect if poked and prodded, its all about finding the key domino to knock over to set it all in motion.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Man, I'm showing my age. A year ago? Pffffffffffffft. I'm talking like 4-6 years ago when I was learning to PK. No one is griefing anyone anywhere near to how things are now. I'm talking not being able to step outside of your org without Narsrim and Talkan showing up to tag team you within 60 seconds, or empressing you into a locked kill room in the hives. Where Thoros and the rest of Mag raises a Fain shrine in the hidden room beneath the Celestia Pool of Stars, then melded the pool, and used pollute and invasion mobs to gank anyone who transversed before they got equilibrium back. Or Viynain and shuyin beast web+pinleg+ibululu-OP spiritsinger ganking people over and over. Or the roving gangs of Mag and Celest Axelords and Bonecrushers perma stunning urrrbody. Or when I used to meld all of Celestia s a BT and solo the population of Celest all day long.
OOOOH memories.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
EDIT: Because if there hasn't, that would explain the non-correlating data -- it's never happened before.
However, we are all looking at conflict in Lusternia at the moment as being broken. We don't have the population of old. We don't have the spread over orgs of old. We don't have most of the players of old, pkers and rpers alike.
We can talk about the good old days and how it was awesome and even want to bring it back, but without the same people for starters, we never will. Roleplay within the orgs has changed, people have changed. What we need to do is look at who and what we have NOW, and say 'how can we improve things with what we have to work with.'
Maligorn brings up a very very valid point. I honestly think if players were more oocly responsible and learned to restrain themselves once in a while, we might have room to grow healthier again. There is nothing fun about being crushed repeatedly. There is nothing fun about continuously losing. There's nothing fun about having inferior numbers, especially when you are watching your numbers slowly flow from your org to elsewhere too. It's demoralising, both IC and OOC. This is a game we play to enjoy. Who logs into a game just to inevitably lose until you can pick up some more numbers? Who wants to keep slogging at a game where the winners have the better mechanical benefits (like the absolves mentioned) that ensures they keep on winning?
I like to think we have issues with roleplay too, not just mechanical conflict. I know Magnagora for one has become so wishy-washy and hand-holdy I sometimes have to wonder if we're really tainted or actually been taken over by the Seren.
So we have problems in the game, as a whole. So what can we, as responsible PLAYERS who want to see this game we love succeed and grow, do to help it? How do we help the less populated orgs retain players and keep them from flocking elsewhere? Because let's face it, if we can't find a way to help it, all the mechanics in the world will mean nothing, because there will be no opposition to fight against in the first place.
It was a year and a half ago that all the Demon Lords were killed, Nil and Mag's Gods Temple were raided 24/7 (without an 8 hour respawn), that Celestians raided prime Magnagora to kill Tunika and Seritul, or the Captain to get to Old Celest to gather Spectres (which is only used by newbies, shows you the griefing attitude that they had).
You don't think the South has learned? The spheres have never been touched. No constant raids on your planes. No griefing you out of your Epic as often as possible (a couple times the rare sea battle that we won, Celest went ahead and raised the ship of the dead so we couldn't get the power). No magnagoran has been breaking into your city to remove all your statues. If you have a bash squad on Astral, does someone come in and Divinefire/Trueheal and overlink your sphere? (Mag hasnt done it, outside of maybe Munsia but no one can control that beast)
Yes, griefing was far more prevelant back in the day (guilty as charged) and far easier, but you don't fight fire with fire. A lot of the game seemed to have been setup to be one gigantic grieffest (dilute? Crow quest before Glom? Demesne summon into a statue?), and to a lot of players the environment seemed to suggest an endgame result.
Nor do I want to single out only the Celestians as being the griefers (they were the most recent), it does take allies to ensure that they were enabled the freedom of their griefing, and it does take a certain ally to sit there and not say anything about the over the top griefing , especially when multiple posts over these forums and the old forums were created about basically this exact same topic.
And yes, there has always been a disparity between the two alliances (outside of a 3 month period here and there), and this topic has been discussed for both sides consistently when one has been up and one has been down. Just look through some of the old posts.
Unless you're suggesting OOCly that the south give the north free wins to artificially boost morale, maybe it's the way it was worded but that's how I read it, and my only reply there is no. I'm not willing to create a false illusion OOCly nor is it right ICly to go "Let's not win this one guys, they've had a rough year."
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Celest is just an example.
I'm trying to provoke some thought. We know there are problems, no one is asking you to twiddle your thumbs and give pity wins, or stop trying. Instead of the attitude of 'nope, I like winning, not going to stop winning, they should just start trying to win more' which seems pretty prevalent, why can't we as players try and find ways to encourage conflict and competition, at least oocly? I'm actually looking for ideas here. We all love this game. Ignore whatever org you are in, what can we do to try and fix things overall?
Edit: and I don't think there's griefing going on, but also considering the original post before Vivet came from the other side of the alliance, it's pretty clearly not in a good or interesting state either.
Quite frankly OOCly I'm not in an org mentality, and can be approached by anyone with questions or looking for pointers. Someone in Serenwilde helped me a lot when I was first really getting into combat, on the basis they wanted people to fight too, it's all about paying it forward in that regard.
The south has a lot of experienced fighters, a good number moreso than me, and most of us are pretty much chill to talk to when looking for pointers. The issue I've found is finding people willing to listen and learn.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
There may be events unrelating to the Divine characters that cause contention, I always thought that the Anas'im'aeklas event was going to push us closer to Serenwilde but no luck. That could well have lead to a new shift, Magnagora taking their expertise to assist Hallifax (though I struggle to see a Mag/Celest juncture any time soon for IC and OOC reasons) while Glomdoring sides with Serenwilde, and Gaudiguch strengthens their NAP, thus giving Serenwilde experience to learn from.
But again, those orgs need the players willing to learn and want to improve, otherwise it's just artificially lumping people with dead weight and saying "You there, carry this." Sure it's a game for people to have fun, don't forget that those of us winning also would like to have fun, and being told to carry people who simply cannot be arsed is not fun. What happens there is the players rebel, cut ties and form stronger unions...
Which is how we got to where we are now in the first place.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
RE absolve - am fine with removing absolve if we make it more possible to steal or make it less possible to ninja upgrade
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I always thought it should be a head to head between you and the opposing domoth holder. First to x points, killing a domoth mob subtracts 1 from their score and adds one to yours, instead of the current "enter the domoth room and afkautobash to victory." Of course if they're on crown, they're spawning 3 mobs at a time, if you're on base level, you're scoring one. So there's still the reason to keep yours upgraded as often as possible.
Of course to make it fair and balanced, that holder's org is still locked out, so the "bigger side" doesn't have the advantage of swarming numbers, unlike in current absolves. But you still have the concept of opposing domoths and rival challenges. Ultimately you're trying to protect your guy and stop their guy at the same time, so there's actually two different battlefields ongoing at once (which also stops mass swarming of numbers in one location)
If they win stage 3, you actually go down a tier (or lose it entirely) if you win, you go up a tier. If there's a time out, it goes into a dormancy for no gain/no loss.
Personally I'd like to see stage 2 be shorter, or also changed entirely. It's another game of have and have nots, you need people with bubblixes or travelships and often domoth victories aren't just about who has more people, but who has more means to get back up there quickly. Personally I'd fling the damn thing somewhere off prime on non org territory. Astral, the catacombs, (not Faethorn because :in before meld advantage arguments: heck, even Muud. Muud would be awesome.
But yeah, I'd gladly lose absolves, I've done three in the last week? They're almost as boring as stage 3.
Also, 15 minutes more is a slog? Honestly, you're up there for 45 minutes on a non TA in their own Domoth run, and an hour for a non seal Demigod, the whole Demiclaim thing is more a pain in the arse because by the time you've claimed/upgraded it and it's come out of dormancy, you'll have to upgrade it in the next 2 days or it falls back down again.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Sarcastic Protip: If you find absolves boring, try starting them when the odds aren't 4:1 in your favor.
In general, when the teams are more even overall and when we're not in the middle of ascension, domoth absolves happen much less frequently. Upgrading is a chore, and people are more willing to live and let live when it means less work for them on the whole.
Making stage 2 even shorter is not the answer. This would narrow the window of opportunity for turnover even more than letting the incumbent choose the time of challenge does. I disagree that the issue of transportation is one of any consequence. Aethercraft is not just for flares and dragonhunts.
I think my biggest beef with domoths is that they're a game strictly for ascendants. I'd like see the ascendant bonuses removed in stage 2, and see basic-demi retention times raised to 100, or even the same 125 days. We've got over 200 demigods at this point. Wouldn't it be nice if some of them could participate too? The ascendant bonuses are so good right now that demis only get to claim when there's no other option, and then their domoths are handed off as quickly as possible. Wouldn't it also be nice if ascendants didn't have to be the only domoth slaves? Just imagine how much more time they'd all have to bash offerings for Isune.
I think the reason stage 3 is boring for Morkarion is that he is an ascendant warrior with nightkiss. Particularly at crown level, it can be pretty challenging for softer classes. It used to be pretty common to see repeated death for people the first time they did stage three at orb/crown. You don't see it so much anymore, cause it's only the same 10 guys who ever claim anymore, and they're pretty well practiced by now. They've all done it scores if not hundreds of times.
Vive l'apostrophe!