State of Conflict

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  • KarlachKarlach God of Kittens.
    Maligorn said:
    I feel like domoth upgrades and domoth absolutions are extremely poor vehicles of PvP nowadays. It's a matter of waiting until there's no one on one side to safely secure a powerful buff for your org.
    To be fair, last night was done with a large group of people around/online. The problem with absolves is that one side knows they're coming way before the other side, and takes the time to entrench themselves and prepare. The other side is walking into an armed fortress of melds, blocks, beckons and a group that knows your composition and already has picked out primary, secondary and tertiary targets.

    Also for what it's worth, it wasn't a case of "high investment flocks together" for me. I learned a lot when I first joined Glomdoring under people who took the time to teach, help fix my code, share things and it made me want to invest further. Some of said people have been "up north" and tried to teach too, and found that experience unpleasant, unfun and difficult.

    Ultimately the fear of loss is a mentality to get past, it took me a while till I realised Domoths flux, flares and revolts cycle. It's the long term or permanent stuff that really matters, last Ascension Life felt like a kick in the teeth, despite everything else going well, that really sucked. The year before Death set me on an 11 month obsession to make sure I didn't lose again. To say we don't fear or hate losing as a blanket statement is inaccurate, but it's got to the point where we realise not every revolt/flare/domoth can be won. Hell, look at Glom right now, 1 domoth, 1 bubble, 1 village, and getting frequently raided when people aren't around so we should be looking like this: image right?


    I've had my tenure as power minister in Glom result in a 200k net loss on the conquest pool, think I'm happy about that? I consider that a failure on my part, but I'm not going to beat myself up over it, nor is anyone else giving me crap for it. We realise it's not a great situation and one we don't want to be in, so we look to make changes in game, looking at key personnel and identifying and supporting the right people who are pushing to get results. We certainly haven't taken to the forums or facebook to complain, why would we? We had worse than this last summer.

    The underlying point is, don't feel you need to org hop to enjoy the game and win, if you're absolutely sick and tired of where you are and feel you have no option and it's not fun anymore then sure, go where you think you'll enjoy the game. But move there for the people, the feel of the place, or some personal goal you have set for yourself, not just "They're winning, looks good, I can relax there."

    Roll an alt maybe. See how things are done from the other side and take notes and bring your experiences and inspirations back and take charge. If you are willing to come up with a plan, call targets and rally people with clear lines of communication, and taking the time to go over logs afterwards and help people with things such as "ok, that was a scissor which split us up, highlight that so you know you've been moved and squint/scent/scry to find us again afterwards." (Some people don't even have certain clans highlighted so they lose stuff in the combat spam.) Then people will follow you, when you lose it's "ok that didn't work, here's what we can take for next time. Thanks for coming out, we'll get them!" instead of "Oh, that sucked, waste of time, off guys, gg."

    Taking the time to go over this stuff not just with yourself, but with each other is a big + The amount of stuff Sidd and Vadi use to highlight and point out to me has been invaluable since. You guys are now teachers, the ones you wish you had when you first started when you had to figure stuff out, and have the opportunity to make sure the ladies and gents coming up now have that good base to start from, and then you'll find you have a lot more people in future fights.

    When Sidd buggered off North, Celina stopped playing and Viy/Shu/Vadi all got jobs and Mag went on their annual vacation last summer during that really awesome period for the north and absolute crap for the south I ended up being thrust into the spotlight with almost a "K, you're leading, good luck." feel to it. Not because anyone told me I was but because there was a giant pair of shoes that needed filling, and other people didn't look to be stepping into them any time soon, which scared the living shit out of me. I didn't think people would follow but I soon learned that people don't care if you're the 6 year veteran or the fresh out the portal new guy. I took a fair share of losses and deaths, but I took my wins as and when they came, focused on what I was good at as a source of positive reinforcement and tried harder at the stuff I sucked at. Sure we had no villages but did you see how many bubbles we had? Win some, lose some. Sure it's not like the days of Equinox where Celest/Gaudi/Glom held everything, or the early post shift days where white blue and green got wiped off all forms of politics, if that's what you feel is necessary to be "winning" then you're looking at the game wrong in my estimation.


    TL,DR: It doesn't matter where you play, losses happen.

    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."

    You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!


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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Maligorn said:
    Literally, I hear on our combat clan "we need to burst down Karlach". What? Excuse me?

    I think we should be targeting the people holding the group together -- Synkarin and Silvanus and possibly even Thoros. That's just my opinion, though.

    EDIT: Yes, Munsia is a high priority target. No doubt. Her pollute is unbelievable. We need that meld down. So, we need someone to break it. Elanorwen usually runs off and starts doing that on the periphery..........while we charge into the meld. Why in the flying fuck are we not following Elanorwen/Avurekhos as she breaks the meld and sets up her own.
    This is a really good thing to be thinking about.  You are also absolutely right, in that situation Morkarion is not the primary target.  You want to focus on people who will die more rapidly.  If you have an available mana kill with a number of people who can drain you could take Morkarion out pretty quickly... but you'd still be better off focusing on someone who has an impact on a group scale, as you already assessed.  Nihilists and Bards are a good pick.  Warriors tend not to die easily to non-mana kills, so while you are bashing on them, your whole group dies to everyone else you are ignoring and you are left wondering what went wrong.  And even if you do take the warrior out, you've just killed one individual, who doesn't really have a group impact.

    In the end though, target priority is an art, and one that takes practice.  If you hear people saying something like that, it's a good reason to reassess if they should be calling targets.  Perhaps someone who has put a little more thought into the whole thing should be doing so.
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  • Celina said:
    Just keep swimming! I learned to just not participate in the things that are mechanically stacked against me to the point of not being fun. Cheeseball geomancer that just face rolls their damage key while hiding 8 rooms deep in a demense? Over it. 8v2 in faethorn? Pass. Domoth death fortress? Whatevs. The point is to have fun, and you shouldn't feel obligated to do things that aren't. Sometimes being the underdog is fun, sometimes it's just suicide. If suicide dives into enemies gets you down, don't do it! Go do something more enjoyable. My other suggestion would be not to care so much about losing. It's just Internet time. Just breathe and let it go. There will be another round.
    To be honest, this is how I like to think I handle things most of the time. It's not so much caring about the losses to much (I don't think), it's more about a frustrating lack of any kind of progress towards winning at least some without resorting to cheese like raiding only when there's nobody else around to oppose. The whole domoth system feels more and more like this to me, these days.
    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "The Challenge of Life has ended!"
    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Aerys stands as the Champion of Life!"
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    edited April 2014
    1. Lock down the primary target (melder) first, then lock down the...playmaker. This is usually the guy who calls targets, or saves everyone, or kills everyone. Killing that guy will help a lot. The problem is that he's usually really good, so ymmv.

    2. I don't think wealth congregates so much as friends congregate. If those friends aren't complete hobos, then they happen to accumulate credits over time due to events, buying them, etc, which makes them more powerful over time.

    3. I said it before, situational awareness really is the big key to pk success. That sort of thing develops as you keep fighting. What's interesting to me is that situational awareness is not dependent on wins/losses. This skill improves regardless. This is what will save you when you when you fight against rough odds.

    4. Yeah, alliances won't change things. Even after another alliance shakeup, there will be winners and there will be losers. And those losers will be salty.

    5. I thought we already went over this, but you're right, your skills suck but everyone else's is pretty overpowered. I mean come on. Everyone has pretty amazing skills on both sides, it's all on application. Example: Staticfield is great, people on crux complain because it splits us up very effectively, but we just shrug and deal with it understanding that we need to conquer it to win.

    6. Losing happens. If you're not having fun, then go something else. That's what I do. I'm personally in a bit of a slump with Lusternia, so I just play other things until I feel the urge again. 
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  • TurnusTurnus The Big Bad Wolf
    Our side suffers pretty badly from a case if tending to want to rush melds instead of slowly breaking in. It seems like a lesson that's never learned and keeps getting repeated. Maybe someday though! That's part if the whole situational awareness training that's needed.

    Unfortunately I'm hardly the best combatant, but would be open to actual specific suggestions on how to help improve/train the serenwilde. Which suffers huge motivation issues (not just combat but in general it's the same handful of people)

    Also absolve as a mechanic sucks.

    PS. I also hate the names north alliance/south alliance and refuse to use them.

    ~--------------**--------------~

    The original picture of Turnus is still viewable here, again by Feyrll.
  • RiviusRivius Your resident wolf puppy
    edited April 2014
    Honestly, a big part of it is practice. The more group fights you become a part of, the more you learn and the more easily what you need to do becomes intuitive. I think we have a lot more newer people than we did before since many older players are going on to bigger stuff™, so that's one of the biggest limiting factors.

    One of the most important aspects of group combat, oddly enough, isn't even leading so much. You need to train to be a good follower, which is way more crucial. You need to stick to the plan but also know how to handle yourself when things start to fall apart. For instance, sometimes when I'm leading, I'll name a target order, and within five seconds of entering the room, one person in our group will start calling an entirely different target order when the agreed-upon targets are still there and vulnerable. This creates confusion and suddenly you see different people hitting different guys and you end up killing people a lot slower and losing traction in the group fight because of it. People should train themselves to listen and stick to a plan, but also be able to look at the group they're facing and know intuitively who is the most important to kill at that moment.

    Knowing your own skills is pretty darn important, but you need to know your friend's skills too. Learning how you can form synergy in group combat is essential. For instance, a mage might notice that the main killing force on his team are aeon casters and mana killers, so he might alteraura quicksilver away and throatlock. A warrior might see he has a tahtetso in tow, and want to smash that knockdown alias to maximize their friend's damage output or increase the speed of a heart strike kill. And for goodness sake, we may not have many bards, but the ones we do almost never seem to scissorkick! Overall, the key to group combat is to think as a TEAM PLAYER. It takes practice and a bit of sitting down and figuring things out with your group, but it pays off. If you're in a group fight and you have absolutely no idea what kill method you're chasing or what exactly you're contributing to the group, sit down and think it through for next time.

    Conversely, think of the enemy as the group they are, not only of the individuals it comprises. Think of how group mentality works and how by splitting or confusing a group, your own group gains an advantage against them.

    Very often we complain about investment, skills and numbers and while it is true that these things may be skewed on one side or the other for whatever reason, you need to make sure before complaining about it that you are indeed doing the best you can do. Until you are, you are not allowed to complain about anything else.



    Also, in regards to the alting solution people brought up...
    I totally agree with trying something different/new if the game is frustrating you. You totally do need to enjoy the game and it should never ever become a chore. I will though pose, that if too many people do this, the problem is only exacerbated, and you're throwing more weight on those who remain, who will then go on to suffer burnout faster. So while it does make things better for you, it doesn't really solve the problem. The health of combat (and lusternia) relies on the health of BOTH sides of the game. Think about that, because I think many people have forgotten.
  • edited April 2014
    Aerys said:
    To be honest, this is how I like to think I handle things most of the time. It's not so much caring about the losses to much (I don't think), it's more about a frustrating lack of any kind of progress towards winning at least some without resorting to cheese like raiding only when there's nobody else around to oppose. The whole domoth system feels more and more like this to me, these days.
    Honestly, I would like to see domoths re-evaluated and perhaps removed.

    Oh, here's a gift for all: https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?v=628477057225847
  • edited April 2014
    Shuyin said:
    I thought we already went over this, but you're right, your skills suck but everyone else's is pretty overpowered.
    This is not what I was trying to say, and I don't really appreciate words being put into my mouth.

    Yes, our side does have their own powerful skills, and I will admit that a lot of them aren't being put to use. But that doesn't change the fact that there is disparity in some of the skill sets. I'd thought about putting some examples up, here, but then I remembered that you've been an envoy for quite a while and know a great deal more than me, so you're probably well aware of them regardless. It's already been argued back and forth into the ground, and it's not likely to change until the overhaul comes anyway, so whatever.

    Edited for hypocritical snark. Apologies.
    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "The Challenge of Life has ended!"
    The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Aerys stands as the Champion of Life!"
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    I mean, if it will make you all feel better, we can rehash why hekoskeri/reality/ectoplasm/crucify/shadowtwist/destruction etc etc is overpowered, and I'm more than willing to derail the thread over it, but until the overhaul, there is literally nothing anyone can do about it (or even if the skills t will still do the same things).

    Fact is, disparate skills aren't a bad thing. It's what makes them unique. Can some of them be a bit too great in a specific circumstance? Sure. (I call this the Brumetower Effect). But I honestly don't think there's any specific combination or class that is impossible to beat.

    All I'm saying is that attributing a side's failings to the "disparate skills" of the other side is rather shortsighted.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited April 2014

    Shuyin said:
    I mean, if it will make you all feel better, we can rehash why hekoskeri/reality/ectoplasm/crucify/shadowtwist/destruction etc etc is overpowered, and I'm more than willing to derail the thread over it, but until the overhaul, there is literally nothing anyone can do about it (or even if the skills t will still do the same things).

    Fact is, disparate skills aren't a bad thing. It's what makes them unique. Can some of them be a bit too great in a specific circumstance? Sure. (I call this the Brumetower Effect). But I honestly don't think there's any specific combination or class that is impossible to beat.

    All I'm saying is that attributing a side's failings to the "disparate skills" of the other side is rather shortsighted.
    I disagree. If we complain enough to the admins, they can reopen limited envoying, like Silvanus suggested. It's not just Transmology/Paradigmatics/Necromancy, I don't even care for the argument of OP. It's little ridiculous things on our side like Shofangi being the redheaded stepchild of monks. Ninjas and Tahtetso can do crushed windpipe w/o power, and Nekotai have a powerless slitthroat. But for some unfathomable reason, someone stuck a 3p cost on Shofangi slitthroat.

    EDIT: What I'm saying by mentioning that isn't meant to be a cry of UP northerners, it's more like -- this is the kind of thing that would be immediately envoyed, but we can't because overhaul.

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  • MunsiaMunsia The Supreme Goddess
    Forgot to add Inquisition into that.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    edited April 2014
    Maligorn said:

    Shuyin said:
    I mean, if it will make you all feel better, we can rehash why hekoskeri/reality/ectoplasm/crucify/shadowtwist/destruction etc etc is overpowered, and I'm more than willing to derail the thread over it, but until the overhaul, there is literally nothing anyone can do about it (or even if the skills t will still do the same things).

    Fact is, disparate skills aren't a bad thing. It's what makes them unique. Can some of them be a bit too great in a specific circumstance? Sure. (I call this the Brumetower Effect). But I honestly don't think there's any specific combination or class that is impossible to beat.

    All I'm saying is that attributing a side's failings to the "disparate skills" of the other side is rather shortsighted.
    I disagree. If we complain enough to the admins, they can reopen limited envoying, like Silvanus suggested. It's not just Transmology/Paradigmatics/Necromancy, I don't even care for the argument of OP. It's little ridiculous things on our side like Shofangi being the redheaded stepchild of monks. Ninjas and Tahtetso can do crushed windpipe w/o power, and Nekotai have a powerless slitthroat. But for some unfathomable reason, someone stuck a 3p cost on Shofangi slitthroat.

    EDIT: What I'm saying by mentioning that isn't meant to be a cry of UP northerners, it's more like -- this is the kind of thing that would be immediately envoyed, but we can't because overhaul.

    3p slitthroat was put on because shofangi were set up where they could just repeat a greenlock combo, twice in a row, do the +2mo move, and repeat endlessly with literally no cost besides losing 1mo. No power, no nothing to get a greenlock, the same kind of greenlock that costs a nekotai minimum of 5p (they require boost to make it work). It's not an unfathomable reason, the Shofangi envoy at the time (Wobou I believe) is the one that did it. 

    Edit: Anyone that thinks Shofangi are the redheaded stepchild, they should probably talk to Hiriako, he was a monster shofangi, doing damage combos of 2-3k easy (though I think the way multipliers work has been nerfed since, not 100% though)

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord
    Maligorn said:

    I disagree. If we complain enough to the admins, they can reopen limited envoying, like Silvanus suggested. It's not just Transmology/Paradigmatics/Necromancy, I don't even care for the argument of OP. It's little ridiculous things on our side like Shofangi being the redheaded stepchild of monks. Ninjas and Tahtetso can do crushed windpipe w/o power, and Nekotai have a powerless slitthroat. But for some unfathomable reason, someone stuck a 3p cost on Shofangi slitthroat.

    EDIT: What I'm saying by mentioning that isn't meant to be a cry of UP northerners, it's more like -- this is the kind of thing that would be immediately envoyed, but we can't because overhaul.
    REPORT 460.
    REPORT 915.

    I don't know what you're talking about, but Shofangi envoys requested a power cost on it in the first report.  That wasn't the solution picked at the time, but the admin tweaked it to have a power cost in the Monk overhaul.  It was envoyed to reduce the power cost to the original request (2 instead of 3), but the admin rejected it.

    It was put on because, as I recall, the Nekotai version is not easily spammable into a repeated lock, the Tahtetso version has alternate cures (windpipe can be cured multiple ways), and the Shofangi one was just being cheesed-to-win (use it over and over until the person is out of power to cure the lock).

    Your example has nothing to do with being a 'red-headed stepchild' and everything to do with 'many, many months of Envoy discussion and debate leaving it where it is now'.  I really doubt that it would be 'immediately envoyed' if they were opened, simply because it has already been explored in tremendous depth already.

    If you want to look at weak skillsets, I can present you with Crow.  Poor, poor Crow.
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  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    edited April 2014
    Probably should've done my research before jumping into that. :P

    Still experimenting with Shofangi as is. I don't really think it's the redheaded stepchild. I really do see a lot of (unblockable via steelgrip) bleeding potential.

    EDIT: I still think a limited envoy system should be set up though.

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  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Synkarin said:

    3p slitthroat was put on because shofangi were set up where they could just repeat a greenlock combo, twice in a row, do the +2mo move, and repeat endlessly with literally no cost besides losing 1mo. No power, no nothing to get a greenlock, the same kind of greenlock that costs a nekotai minimum of 5p (they require boost to make it work). It's not an unfathomable reason, the Shofangi envoy at the time (Wobou I believe) is the one that did it. 

    Edit: Anyone that thinks Shofangi are the redheaded stepchild, they should probably talk to Hiriako, he was a monster shofangi, doing damage combos of 2-3k easy (though I think the way multipliers work has been nerfed since, not 100% though)
    And now he does 4.5k+ combos as a neko. Feel free to ask him when we tested the thing together.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    edited April 2014
    I don't doubt it, it likely works the same way Shofangi moves worked

    edit: though the circumstances would be nice to know, a lot of things are achievable testing that aren't readily achievable in reality

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Synkarin said:
    I don't doubt it, it likely works the same way Shofangi moves worked

    edit: though the circumstances would be nice to know, a lot of things are achievable testing that aren't readily achievable in reality
    Actually, the ibululu didn't go through on that hit and wounds were pretty low.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Vague comments don't really explain things

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    Synkarin said:
    Vague comments don't really explain things
    We tested it because in a real live combat situation, he achieved a fair amount more in a single kata. So yes, it is achievable, and it is actually worse in a live situation. The combo landed at medium wounds with an ibululu spit that got shrugged before it and dealt 4.5-something thousand damage. I don't see how it's vague.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • ShuyinShuyin The pug life chose me.
    Called it. Thread derailed.
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    This thread got monk'd.
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  • SynkarinSynkarin Nothing to see here
    Elanorwen said:
    Synkarin said:
    Vague comments don't really explain things
    We tested it because in a real live combat situation, he achieved a fair amount more in a single kata. So yes, it is achievable, and it is actually worse in a live situation. The combo landed at medium wounds with an ibululu spit that got shrugged before it and dealt 4.5-something thousand damage. I don't see how it's vague.

    What was the combo? What were the wounds? Were you sensitive from earlier perhaps? How would it be worse in a live situation? Was your curing optimized to handle it properly? What kind of dmp buffs does he have vs dmp resists do you have? Saying 'oh I was at medium wounds and shrugged iblulu doesn't really say anything  as to how he achieved that kind of damage.

    Everiine said:
    "'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in."
    -Synkarin's Lament.
  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    edited April 2014
    Logs, elanorwen. WATER, HELEN. WAAATER
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  • CyndarinCyndarin used Flamethrower! It was super effective.
    Stupid phone grammar
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  • SiamSiam Whispered Voice
    edited April 2014
    Did False Memory become a Hallifax thing?
    Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"

    #bringShikariback 


  • ElanorwenElanorwen The White Falconess
    edited April 2014
    EDIT: Actually, never mind. Not going to bother.
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    Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
  • I like to suicide rush. It amuses me. I don't even know why. I'm just like, "I suck at combat, I'll just annoy them and see how fast they whack me down!" *jumps in*

    But honestly, if there is someone who is really really awesome with bard skills (Other than Talan, who is MIA due to health reasons), I would greatly appreciate the time and practice, no matter the city/commune said person is in. Then, at least, I could pass some of the knowledge on to the noobs in the Symphonium.
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  • Shofangi is not the red-headed stepchild of monk combat, not by a far shot. They bleeding output is second to only the Ninjakari, and even that is debatable. They start their bleeding forms from as low as... 0mo. They are the only monk class with a no power, no momentum arm-action prone. All others require at least a grapple or power/momentum cost. They have the highest salve-stacking and salve-locking potential of all monks, above even the Ninjakari. The Tahtetso could rival them because of the sheer overbearing threat of chestpain, but in terms of actual affliction number and salve balance pushing, they have the Tahtetso beat. They have the highest potential out of all the monk classes to maintain a true prone-lock due to that as well. While the Nekotai slit-throat doesn't cost power, it costs momentum. The Shofangi slit-throat costs power, but can be used in a slit-lock form without needing to boost. The Nekotai slit-lock form requires boost on top of the momentum cost.

    The Shofangi instakill is flat out useless. I'm not even sure if Crunch is still an instakill. But don't worry, the Nekotai insta is almost as bad. Slightly better, I'll admit that. But not by much.

    The damage that Hiriako can do with Nekotai is 100% achievable with Shofangi abilities. All Nekotai arm and leg actions deal exactly the same amount of damage and wounds as a normal, basic nekai or kata kick. Yes, this means my slit-throat deals the same damage as a nekai slash. Yes, this means my herb-aff kick gives as much damage as a kata kick. We get nothing out of our spec moves except the afflictions and effects. Of course, those effects are very good, and they do all play a significant part in contributing to the Nekotai kill strategies.

    The only damage modifier that Nekotai have which the Shofangi do not is a poison-damage boost modifier. This gives any action the Nekotai performs a damage boost if it also successfully transfers a poison. Yes, it boosts the base damage of our attacks... the dismal base damage which is the same as a basic nekai slash or kata kick. The Shofangi, incidentally, also have a kick-damage booster as a modifier.

    There is no special, magical mix in the Nekotai skillset that allows us to do damage that other Monk guilds cannot do. There is no inherent disparity in the damage output of a Nekotai to any other monk guild. On the other hand, Ninjakari and Shofangi bleeding far outstrips Nekotai bleeding in every aspect. They start their bleeding earlier (which means a lot, because bleeding is a time-based strategy - it stacks with itself exponentially as it goes on) and they do more bleeding at every equivalent stage.

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