That's everyone's hope, but dramaturgy doesn't produce actual illusions.
They're like better illusions (no chance to see through them) that also deal affs, but must contain the target's name. That means that if you're using code that can recognize a player's class automatically (or just allows you to manually set it), you can make it so that the scene is ignored, and it just checks for predictable affs like anorexia/lust. Basically, it's a system tax - if your system doesn't know how, you're screwed. If you take the time to jigger in the proper checks - they don't really work.
edit: Rules and code could be made to not allow them to -not- work that way.
Exactly as predicted, there was a phase during which they were hilarious because they could illusion trick you into doing things like rubbing cleanse erroneously while giving hidden confusion. Now, advanced systems are starting to be able to catch on with a high degree of success (through color triggering, affmessages, and class databases) and avoid a big part of what arguably 'balanced' the tert for the non-aeon users, while less advanced systems/system users are screwed.
While I won't side with either side here, because I think it's a valid discussion, you are working off of a few faulty premises.
1) Bards are not a "support class." Every class is designed and intended to function entirely on their own when necessary.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1 and win. It's been seen many, many times in the past. I have a lot of difficulty looking at scenarios where 1 person beat 2 people and assuming that the 1 person simply has a mechanical advantage. I would note that Raeri is a very experienced combatant, as is Kelly.
3) Comparing everything to choke is less of a rational argument and more using "choke" as a buzz word to illicit a particular response. I will tell you that choke was not a problematic mechanic in my perspecitve so far as balance was concerned, though I understand and support its change because it was driven by the players. So referencing it repeatedly may not illicit the response you are desiring. Your time would be better served explaining how this is a "instant shut-down," which, from my perspective, if your biggest hurtle before initiating some type of change here.
in response.
1) Bards have several support capabilities and several of their songs are actually made to enhance their allies (Citysong? Angel/Demon/Fae song? Increased balance song? Undead song?). Additionally, reason why I say support is because Bards have never been (nor do I feel were meant to be) hard hitting soul wracking fiends, frankly that falls more towards Mage (which is built around offensiveness) and Guardians.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1, and usually anyone watching can see their skill. Tell me, where in the previous log is there at all any skill in walking in, blanknoting, princessfarewelling, and shooting starchords? This is the definition of skilled fighting? I wonder what people like Ixion and Fillin can be considered now. Additionally, since you brought up Kelly, let us take a peek into her backlog, as a Knight, she was actually one of the best currently around, having utilized all her abilities to the best and getting those beheads. Now let's look in Cantor form....a princessfarewell, dramaturgy hidden afflict and starchords. We are comparing the two? One actually took initiative and drive to pull off, the other took a few aliases? Raeri is not in definition a 'skilled' fighter, no offense to him, but he cannot compare to such people like Ixion, Akyaevin, Karlach and so forth. If you consider what he does as skilled then I have lost all hope in lusternian combat balance.
3) Reason I bring up Choke so often is because it was the definition of a bad combat mechanic that hindered the game far more than advanced it, simply because it made payers feel helpless. Yes I know Glom had defended it tooth and nail and then some, even till now we see defenses for it, but that doesnt change the fact that so much of the playerbase was outcrying at this ability, a playerbase that more than likely has experienced their fair share of combat balances and mechanics in the other IRE and obviously see a problem, a playerbase that had several up and quit from such abilities to finally get some recognition to get rid of such toxic mechanics, then yes I will quite strongly stick to the point that this ability is similar in its makeup (player-wise) to choke.
Additionally, I find the passive dismissiveness somewhat disheartening. I am posting these not because I am attempting some shady concept of getting a skill nerfed because "Just cant handle it", I am stating a point of view of an ability mechanic that if left unchecked in its current state will have the same negative ramificatoins I have seen in the past. Right now I admit I would love if Arix was still around to way in on the negative side-effects such mechanics have had on the game.
Just to be clear, what am I supposed to be weighing in on?
While I won't side with either side here, because I think it's a valid discussion, you are working off of a few faulty premises.
1) Bards are not a "support class." Every class is designed and intended to function entirely on their own when necessary.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1 and win. It's been seen many, many times in the past. I have a lot of difficulty looking at scenarios where 1 person beat 2 people and assuming that the 1 person simply has a mechanical advantage. I would note that Raeri is a very experienced combatant, as is Kelly.
3) Comparing everything to choke is less of a rational argument and more using "choke" as a buzz word to illicit a particular response. I will tell you that choke was not a problematic mechanic in my perspecitve so far as balance was concerned, though I understand and support its change because it was driven by the players. So referencing it repeatedly may not illicit the response you are desiring. Your time would be better served explaining how this is a "instant shut-down," which, from my perspective, if your biggest hurtle before initiating some type of change here.
in response.
1) Bards have several support capabilities and several of their songs are actually made to enhance their allies (Citysong? Angel/Demon/Fae song? Increased balance song? Undead song?). Additionally, reason why I say support is because Bards have never been (nor do I feel were meant to be) hard hitting soul wracking fiends, frankly that falls more towards Mage (which is built around offensiveness) and Guardians.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1, and usually anyone watching can see their skill. Tell me, where in the previous log is there at all any skill in walking in, blanknoting, princessfarewelling, and shooting starchords? This is the definition of skilled fighting? I wonder what people like Ixion and Fillin can be considered now. Additionally, since you brought up Kelly, let us take a peek into her backlog, as a Knight, she was actually one of the best currently around, having utilized all her abilities to the best and getting those beheads. Now let's look in Cantor form....a princessfarewell, dramaturgy hidden afflict and starchords. We are comparing the two? One actually took initiative and drive to pull off, the other took a few aliases? Raeri is not in definition a 'skilled' fighter, no offense to him, but he cannot compare to such people like Ixion, Akyaevin, Karlach and so forth. If you consider what he does as skilled then I have lost all hope in lusternian combat balance.
3) Reason I bring up Choke so often is because it was the definition of a bad combat mechanic that hindered the game far more than advanced it, simply because it made payers feel helpless. Yes I know Glom had defended it tooth and nail and then some, even till now we see defenses for it, but that doesnt change the fact that so much of the playerbase was outcrying at this ability, a playerbase that more than likely has experienced their fair share of combat balances and mechanics in the other IRE and obviously see a problem, a playerbase that had several up and quit from such abilities to finally get some recognition to get rid of such toxic mechanics, then yes I will quite strongly stick to the point that this ability is similar in its makeup (player-wise) to choke.
Additionally, I find the passive dismissiveness somewhat disheartening. I am posting these not because I am attempting some shady concept of getting a skill nerfed because "Just cant handle it", I am stating a point of view of an ability mechanic that if left unchecked in its current state will have the same negative ramificatoins I have seen in the past. Right now I admit I would love if Arix was still around to way in on the negative side-effects such mechanics have had on the game.
Just to be clear, what am I supposed to be weighing in on?
Hmm, at the time I think it was discussions of the negative impact a mechanic like Choke had on the game and how, in some opinions, it drove off players seeking more balanced and fair mechanics.
Also I recall some debating on whether it was ever even balanced, as some argued it was, with my input that it gave too much control overall combat as a mechanic.
Also, bards are all kinds of a support class. Sure they can stand on their own sometimes, but they really shine in a group
I think you're equivocating his meaning. I believe he's trying to say, that in Lusternia no class is meant to be just support. As in, needs a group to do anything. That's different than saying, that they don't have a support role. Arguably, mages and druids have a strong group support role, that doesn't mean they're not hell one wheels 1v1.
I dunno. I was summoned to the forums, so I felt I should at least say something about something. Also, regarding choke, I never really cared much about it either way, since I don't fight. I acknowledge it was a pain in the ass, but I mostly got involved in those arguments because that was the thing to do while waiting on Mafia results
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Hmm, at the time I think it was discussions of the negative impact a mechanic like Choke had on the game and how, in some opinions, it drove off players seeking more balanced and fair mechanics.
Also I recall some debating on whether it was ever even balanced, as some argued it was, with my input that it gave too much control overall combat as a mechanic.