I also have to agree with Feyda here. It says a lot that a person known for being a warrior (Kelly) has consistantly been a Cantor for some time.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
The problem there, as with the original complaint about cantor damage, probably stems from buff/def problems (as @Synkarin pointed out). Damage runes greatly amplify caster damage, and if you're using an attack that has a high percentage of a hard-to-resist damage type, plus a damage rune, PLUS a lot of buff dmp to that type, it's going to be vastly more damage than base, not just somewhat more.
If racial eq gets nerfed(and should), this won't be that big of an issue anyways.
PrincessFarewell has always been annoyingly strong, and it's all almost all Cantors have ever done. There is a reason why it has attracted some of the most annoying PKers in the game.
Also, I haven't read the thread, I'm on a phone, but just shield for Inquisition? Yeah, no, it's called warrior raze, it won't work. It's called passive afflictions, it won't work. That is a stupid argument, don't use it. The only counter to Inquisition is running, and anything that makes you run to cure/avoid death should be removed.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
'North' classes tend to have stronger defensive abilities and trend towards long-term supremacy, the eventual win. 'South' classes tend to be stronger offensively, and synergize more easily offensively. There are exceptions to this*, but that's the basic trend. In massive group combat (Which is the current and foreseeable meta), defensive abilities that do not remove you as a target** are far outstripped by offensive abilities.
That said, it is a matter of having a bulk of competent fighters, willing to get on the same page and increase their tactics.
But... it can be hard to keep potential fighters when they begin asking questions and come to understand that while they can work hard and learn tricks for getting around opposing enemy blocks and skills... at the end of the day, they're going to have to work that much harder for their kills/satisfaction than they would if they hopped to another archetype/org. We could spend all day talking about counters and counter-counters, they exist and can be pursued. However, if one side/org needs to be worrying about a large number of these gambits and the other... doesn't, you have a fundamental imbalance there that tends to put off new fighthers. Not an insurmountable one, but one that does exist, no matter how much we pretend it doesn't.
I'm hopeful that some of these problems, like the buff stacking issues, will be solved during and after the overhaul. Just not that hopeful.
*Like Inquisition. Note that, except for lolSap, none of the presented exceptions by either side are Serenwilde skills. Hmm..
**Like Trueheal, which gives you a prismatic long enough that you're unlikely to get pinned before you can totally escape. Things like hermiting/getting empressed away, using an escape skill (like a clever nature flow) also counts.
Stagstomp is a reskinned version of mage disrupt that costs more (and is slower, I believe). The limb breaks are absolutely a red herring. Wane is a slightly better version of aeon that differs in no meaningful way from other sources of aeon. Full is a defensive skill.
Dark/AncestralCurse are good enough to be on the list with Inquisition, Ectoplasm (RIP), PFairwell, Brume, Bonds, etc? They contribute to an incremental/eventual kill, but are nothing like the immediate burst offense skills and their combat impact.
Again, I'm not saying there are no good skills in the 'northern alliance' or Serenwilde, but there are definite trends that should be noticed, pointed out, and hopefully (finally) delt with.
Stagstomp is a reskinned version of mage disrupt that costs more (and is slower, I believe). The limb breaks are absolutely a red herring.
Yeah, but they sure help keep someone down when they're sapped.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Stagstomp is pretty awesome in groups, so is wane and full!
Dark/ancestralcurse aren't too shabby either if it's a prolonged room brawl.
I don't understand this part of things too much, so please explain? I'm trying to learn here, not arguing.
With three out of five, even I can be an awesome combatant then? Even throwing those things at you guys, people definitely seemed to actually pay way more attention to me when I went Hexen, and just did doublewhammies and darks the whole time. Because that seems like way more of a threat, and you can just easily ignore me if I'm trying to stay alive with our defensive stuff (as awesome as some of that defense is).
I think a lot of the issues we have with each others skills is because the (stereotyping here) good side has a lot of Defensive/Healing/Protective skills, and the bad side has the offensive side. The problem is that you don't see a lot of the defensive stuff being used; when was the last time you noticed a Stag user dropping a totem in a fight? Does anyone ever have Healers sitting off a few rooms away reflexively farcuring people?
We have had these things happen. It doesn't help that our own side routinely mocks us for it. Healers aren't real combatants, you see. Too much of that, and those people simply stop trying. I definitely agree that a lot of the common attitudes among both sides have a lot to do with it. But that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a true disparity, just that I don't think we have any way of actually knowing what it is before addressing our own attitude problems.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
We have had these things happen. It doesn't help that our own side routinely mocks us for it. Healers aren't real combatants, you see. Too much of that, and those people simply stop trying. I definitely agree that a lot of the common attitudes among both sides have a lot to do with it. But that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a true disparity, just that I don't think we have any way of actually knowing what it is before addressing our own attitude problems.
Then your side needs to be beaten with a stick. A cadre of healers off away from battle keeping the hard hitters going could really turn the tide of battle. Support is important, we can't all be Shuyin and Kelly. Some of us have to be webbers, salters, and gusters.
True story, I once kept Munsia alive for five or more minutes from about three rooms away while Malicia and 2-3 others beat the crap out of her. She only left because she got bored, and she actually recommended to my org that I get a cityfavour for it.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
everyone can be an awesome combatant if they put work and effort into it.
We don't tend to push people in Gaudi unless they really are interested in learning, then we'll offer up all sorts of advice. @Kurut has been playing around with tons of stuff lately, from hexes to astro, and coming on raids/ganks to try things out. I'll take whatever help I can get, even if it's just someone sitting off to the side healing me.
The only thing I'm going to get angry or upset about is if you start blaming me for leaving you behind or somesort when it's really your responsibility to stay on balance, and if we get separated, get back to me. I'm willing to work with you, but you got to take responsibility for yourself too.
Stagstomp is a reskinned version of mage disrupt that costs more (and is slower, I believe). The limb breaks are absolutely a red herring.
Yeah, but they sure help keep someone down when they're sapped.
Well actually, less than you'd think, and much less in a group scenario when compared to other skills. Broken limbs do not directly stop the healing of sap, and in a situation where you have an ally ready to sprawl on sap, that ally should be dealing the limb breaks anyways. Again, stagstomp is useful, absolutely. In a group context, it's not any more useful than mage disrupt skills, and is arguably less useful (still useful, not Inqusition/exception useful).
EDIT: And anyways, that entire thing is basically off-topic. There are trends, and they do have an effect on the combat meta, including an effect on 'attitudes' that tends to feed back into the problem.
And last I recall, being prone does stop rubbing cleanse.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Having broken limbs does not stop rubbing cleanse (or using any other enchant). Being prone does, yes. So right, if you have a sprawled opponent, breaking their legs does indeed help to hinder their curing sap by making it harder to stand up.
Druids can nativly cause sprawl as a shaman, on ground level only (after a delay and with a powercost), or by putting the target to sleep. Neither is really feasible in a group scenario on anything like a normal timetable for sap (putting aside all the other quite large problems with sap in groups).
So right... everything I said was accurate. The likely sources of sprawl (which is the only thing that makes the leg breaks relevant) are warriors and monks, who both have access to (and should be using) limb breaking poisons and other affliction sources. What the druid is primarily adding to the mix is the disrupt, the broken legs are incidental (again, assuming a WHOLE lot about how druids and sap work in group combat that I don't necessarily agree with).
Stagstomp is a trap option for inexperienced druids. It's decent for sap, but should be FAR from your go-to option when you recover eq/bal. In group situations, it's pretty good, disrupting stops tumbling and other similar escape/cure abilities... but mage disrupt is equally as good, and costs two less power (0).
EDIT: Heck, not only does it cost a decent chunk of power (almost the same as pfairwell), it can't be used unless the target is prone. In sap, this is basically a meaningless distinction (prone is effectively the ONLY thing that blocks using enchants, if you're in sap you're prone... or you're not in sap anymore), but it makes it even harder to use in groups.
... Druids can nativly cause sprawl as a shaman, on ground level only (after a delay and with a powercost), or by putting the target to sleep. Neither is really feasible in a group scenario on anything like a normal timetable for sap (putting aside all the other quite large problems with sap in groups). ...
Just wanted to single out this bit and say this: everything is feasible in a group scenario. Group scenarios enable everything and more. Also, most of the problems of sap in groups is faced by the person being sapped, not really the sapper.
Also, to the rest of the thread: HAHAHAHAHAHA. Poor Arcanis and his princessfarewell rant. Lost in the mess of the partisan squabbling. I guess if you guys are trying to prevent changes to pfarewell, you're doing very well shutting down that conversation, haha.
The likely sources of sprawl (which is the only thing that makes the leg breaks relevant) are warriors and monks, who both have access to (and should be using) limb breaking poisons and other affliction sources.
Basically yeah: In groups sprawl isn't that hard to come by, but it usually comes with broken legs/stand hindering anyways. That still doesn't make stagstomp's legbreaks worth two power, nor do those legbreaks suddenly become worthy of the list of 'OP' skills.
But I agree. All of these diverts into the minute specifics of individual skills mask the larger problems. It's really frustrating having something larger to say about what trends are, and what that means to play or balance and getting shut down because someone wants to quibble that there are flaming hoops you can jump through to reach 'balance', or some unrelated ability is also good, yadda yadda.
EDIT: Why do my preview and my actual post look different? These forums...
Having broken limbs does not stop rubbing cleanse (or using any other enchant). Being prone does, yes. So right, if you have a sprawled opponent, breaking their legs does indeed help to hinder their curing sap by making it harder to stand up.
Druids can nativly cause sprawl as a shaman, on ground level only (after a delay and with a powercost), or by putting the target to sleep. Neither is really feasible in a group scenario on anything like a normal timetable for sap (putting aside all the other quite large problems with sap in groups).
So right... everything I said was accurate. The likely sources of sprawl (which is the only thing that makes the leg breaks relevant) are warriors and monks, who both have access to (and should be using) limb breaking poisons and other affliction sources. What the druid is primarily adding to the mix is the disrupt, the broken legs are incidental (again, assuming a WHOLE lot about how druids and sap work in group combat that I don't necessarily agree with).
Stagstomp is a trap option for inexperienced druids. It's decent for sap, but should be FAR from your go-to option when you recover eq/bal. In group situations, it's pretty good, disrupting stops tumbling and other similar escape/cure abilities... but mage disrupt is equally as good, and costs two less power (0).
EDIT: Heck, not only does it cost a decent chunk of power (almost the same as pfairwell), it can't be used unless the target is prone. In sap, this is basically a meaningless distinction (prone is effectively the ONLY thing that blocks using enchants, if you're in sap you're prone... or you're not in sap anymore), but it makes it even harder to use in groups.
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Avurekhos uses it, and he's probably your main druid combatant. Further, I'm curious as to whether your meld's effects or infused gyfu count as prone for stagstomp.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Siiiigh, yes I know how this skill and all of my other skills work, in some detail. Is there a sign on the back of my forum avatar that says "Kick me and also assume I don't know how any of my skills work".?
Point out any place where I have denied that stagstomp can be used, and is used, please. Avurkhos uses it. I use it. Every Stag druid in the history of the game has probably used it. It's not a useless skill, it's not even our trashiest skill.
It's pretty decent in sap, if you know what you're doing.
It's okay in groups, if you know what you're doing.
It is not on par princess fairwell, sky sfortzando, crucify, trueheal, lich, choke (RIP), twist, inquisition, ecto (soon to be dead), staticfield, bonds, brume, etc. This may be a good thing, some of those skill may be at least a little bit ridiculous. Pretending it is on par with those skills is crazy. If you want a further discussion of the strengths of sap in group combat, and what sap has done to melder archetype balance in the years it haw been around, I would be more than happy to have that discussion with you. Somewhere else. The only reason stagstomp even came up is because @Shuyinproffered it as Seren's example of a standout group offense skill - in which situation it's by and large mage disrupt with some frills that don't add much substance and a higher power cost. Woo.
As for fixing some systemic problems, I don't know where to start. I would be more than happy to give up some of the outdated defenses and gimpy offensive tricks for new, more dependable, applicable, and modern skills.
EDIT: Actually, I do know where to start. A list of contentious abilities and why they are contentious would be useful. Ultimately, not every ability listed could possibly be looked at, nor should they all be. However, cases can be made for certain above-and-beyond skills that might need reworking or limits imposed.
Won't lie, whispers is pretty great in groups and if whispers is great, stagstomp is great by your own comparison. Managing to keep a target off-eq and locked down to prevent tumble/escape is fantastic and since it works with prone, not sprawl only (iirc), you're much always going to be able to use it at some point in groups. Broken limbs do slow down offenses and help keep the target prone etc, which isn't a bad deal.
pFarewell is better (insta-aeon is pretty tough to beat) but as far as general skills in group fights, it should be used if it can be used.
Come to the south, we're very offensive, just not with words.
I'm hilariousvilainouse wearing a rhinestone banana hammock and a turtleneck.
ftfy
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'll be honest, I stopped reading once the conversation devolved into partisan hackery, so I'm not entirely sure where the topic landed. That being said...
1) This is not a particularly successful way to go about changing any given mechanic.
2) Many of you are envoys, and will (I hope) put up a report at some point in time and partake in discussions over envoys and on reports for these and many other skills. I have a difficult time putting a lot of faith in any envoy that engages in skillset politics. "North vs South," is not a balancing point for mechanics. "Your org is better than mine," is not a constructive, nor particular insightful, argument to start. Just some food for thought.
I also have to agree with Feyda here. It says a lot that a person known for being a warrior (Kelly) has consistantly been a Cantor for some time.
This.
This is what I have been addressing in game. It should be something to realize that a player like Kelly whom has devoted quite their time to warrior combat (and perhaps was the only experienced warrior in the 'north alliance') has suddenly decided that it is MORE beneficial to hop onto the cantor train -and- her KDR has nearly doubled since then, with her having been a cantor for only a few weeks now. This alone shows there is something terribly wrong here.
Has anyone even been paying attention to deathsights and combat fights lately? It has basically been nothing but cantor kills, simply from pfarewell combo and that starchord spam.
I don't follow that logic. If anything, Kelly being an eternal Paladin shows she's not the type to just chase the easy spammable op cheese skills. I think you're going on a slippery tangent there.
(Please stop being a good cantor @Kelly, you're ruining everything.)
I don't follow that logic. If anything, Kelly being an eternal Paladin shows she's not the type to just chase the easy spammable op cheese skills. I think you're going on a slippery tangent there.
(Please stop being a good cantor @Kelly, you're ruining everything.)
I am attempting to point out how a lifetime (metaphorically speaking) of experience as a paladin can be shadowed by playing a few weeks as a cantor (in its current state).
That aside, Pfarewell currently costs 3 power to do: Aeon (bypass quicksilver), Blackout and Stun. Looking at other bard kits, we can attempt to compare.
Necroscream gives Queenslament which entangles and gives blackout for 2 power, which frankly isnt really used because the target is generally writhered free before the cacophony has time to capitilize on it. The only time this could be useful is if the target has been pushed off balance somehow by a plague (which truth be told I have no idea how these will be changed or removed with the coming overhaul) and if they can perhaps utilize darkmaster to force them to writhe beforehand. This entire setup is obviously far more work (with less reward) then simply directing a single hit that is Pfarewell.
Skysforzando: Requires a lust and 3 power to put someone in aeon and stun. Literally is a downsized version of Pfarewell. Is it fair it is the same cost except has a prerequiste and missing blackout? Additionally, I think aeon will first strip the quicksilver.
Not going to go through each one, but basically my idea is pfarewell is too easy to do and has no skill to it. It is reminiscent of old choke's (Instant aeon and stuck) concept. Seriously all the cantor has to do is have a pfifth down beforehand and then it is basically choke (except curable but honestly with how you get stuck, not that easy to even cure to begin with).
I prefer skills that require one to actually be practiced to pull off such concepts, not simply press a button.
The only thing too stronk about Pfarewell is how beautiful it looks in third, second and first person .
Pfarewell Pfifth is 6 Power though and three balances with a blanknote before. You totally have the few balances leading up to the Pfarewell to gust and reset, wasting the 3 power for Pfifth.
@Queenslament: If I understand correctly (and the lusternia wiki is up to date), the entangle works with their song anyway. If they writhe free they eat the low stanza bleeding and take the extra second(?How long it takes?) to writhe. While it may not work on contortionists, it's not bad. Super, bloody writhe for two power, so you can use it a lot more freely than Pfarewell.
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PrincessFarewell has always been annoyingly strong, and it's all almost all Cantors have ever done. There is a reason why it has attracted some of the most annoying PKers in the game.
Also, I haven't read the thread, I'm on a phone, but just shield for Inquisition? Yeah, no, it's called warrior raze, it won't work. It's called passive afflictions, it won't work. That is a stupid argument, don't use it. The only counter to Inquisition is running, and anything that makes you run to cure/avoid death should be removed.
I think I've been a Cantor for two weeks...
Dat warrior life, so hard, so unglorified. I'm just living the damage ho dream until I get punted back to being a pit slave.
Again, I'm not saying there are no good skills in the 'northern alliance' or Serenwilde, but there are definite trends that should be noticed, pointed out, and hopefully (finally) delt with.
True story, I once kept Munsia alive for five or more minutes from about three rooms away while Malicia and 2-3 others beat the crap out of her. She only left because she got bored, and she actually recommended to my org that I get a cityfavour for it.
Druids can nativly cause sprawl as a shaman, on ground level only (after a delay and with a powercost), or by putting the target to sleep. Neither is really feasible in a group scenario on anything like a normal timetable for sap (putting aside all the other quite large problems with sap in groups).
Stagstomp is a trap option for inexperienced druids. It's decent for sap, but should be FAR from your go-to option when you recover eq/bal. In group situations, it's pretty good, disrupting stops tumbling and other similar escape/cure abilities... but mage disrupt is equally as good, and costs two less power (0).
Just wanted to single out this bit and say this: everything is feasible in a group scenario. Group scenarios enable everything and more. Also, most of the problems of sap in groups is faced by the person being sapped, not really the sapper.
Also, to the rest of the thread: HAHAHAHAHAHA. Poor Arcanis and his princessfarewell rant. Lost in the mess of the partisan squabbling. I guess if you guys are trying to prevent changes to pfarewell, you're doing very well shutting down that conversation, haha.
Basically yeah: In groups sprawl isn't that hard to come by, but it usually comes with broken legs/stand hindering anyways. That still doesn't make stagstomp's legbreaks worth two power, nor do those legbreaks suddenly become worthy of the list of 'OP' skills.
But I agree. All of these diverts into the minute specifics of individual skills mask the larger problems. It's really frustrating having something larger to say about what trends are, and what that means to play or balance and getting shut down because someone wants to quibble that there are flaming hoops you can jump through to reach 'balance', or some unrelated ability is also good, yadda yadda.
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As for fixing some systemic problems, I don't know where to start. I would be more than happy to give up some of the outdated defenses and gimpy offensive tricks for new, more dependable, applicable, and modern skills.
EDIT: Actually, I do know where to start. A list of contentious abilities and why they are contentious would be useful. Ultimately, not every ability listed could possibly be looked at, nor should they all be. However, cases can be made for certain above-and-beyond skills that might need reworking or limits imposed.
(Anonymous): Glevich says, "Yeah, fuck all of you.. You are all worthless."
3classy5me. I guess there are some attitude problems that need weeding out.
I'm hilarious.
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This is what I have been addressing in game. It should be something to realize that a player like Kelly whom has devoted quite their time to warrior combat (and perhaps was the only experienced warrior in the 'north alliance') has suddenly decided that it is MORE beneficial to hop onto the cantor train -and- her KDR has nearly doubled since then, with her having been a cantor for only a few weeks now. This alone shows there is something terribly wrong here.
Has anyone even been paying attention to deathsights and combat fights lately? It has basically been nothing but cantor kills, simply from pfarewell combo and that starchord spam.
(Please stop being a good cantor @Kelly, you're ruining everything.)
That aside, Pfarewell currently costs 3 power to do: Aeon (bypass quicksilver), Blackout and Stun. Looking at other bard kits, we can attempt to compare.
Necroscream gives Queenslament which entangles and gives blackout for 2 power, which frankly isnt really used because the target is generally writhered free before the cacophony has time to capitilize on it. The only time this could be useful is if the target has been pushed off balance somehow by a plague (which truth be told I have no idea how these will be changed or removed with the coming overhaul) and if they can perhaps utilize darkmaster to force them to writhe beforehand. This entire setup is obviously far more work (with less reward) then simply directing a single hit that is Pfarewell.
Skysforzando: Requires a lust and 3 power to put someone in aeon and stun. Literally is a downsized version of Pfarewell. Is it fair it is the same cost except has a prerequiste and missing blackout? Additionally, I think aeon will first strip the quicksilver.
Not going to go through each one, but basically my idea is pfarewell is too easy to do and has no skill to it. It is reminiscent of old choke's (Instant aeon and stuck) concept. Seriously all the cantor has to do is have a pfifth down beforehand and then it is basically choke (except curable but honestly with how you get stuck, not that easy to even cure to begin with).
I prefer skills that require one to actually be practiced to pull off such concepts, not simply press a button.
Pfarewell Pfifth is 6 Power though and three balances with a blanknote before. You totally have the few balances leading up to the Pfarewell to gust and reset, wasting the 3 power for Pfifth.
@Queenslament:
If I understand correctly (and the lusternia wiki is up to date), the entangle works with their song anyway. If they writhe free they eat the low stanza bleeding and take the extra second(?How long it takes?) to writhe. While it may not work on contortionists, it's not bad. Super, bloody writhe for two power, so you can use it a lot more freely than Pfarewell.