IIRC, prone is defaulted to priority over anorexia in slowcuring because slowcuring is the same for aeon and sap, and its placement is with sap in mind.
The above log is not only a starchord, but a CrusaderCanto(?) as well, at half strength or so.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Raeri stares at you with a burning intensity. 5154h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29887w BesSilrxkdb- Your masochistic tendencies go into remission. Raeri plays a twilight lyre, and you cry out as your deaf ears open up to the sound of a high- pitched note. Your ears open up, though you lose your true hearing. You have cured deafness. 5154h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29887w BesSilrxkb- "Perhaps it was a snowing cloud - shaped like a mammoth with wings!" sings Raeri, making a twilight lyre fairly weep with tragic notes, and he looks directly at you. Filled with a haunting sorrow and unlimited love, an excruciatingly beautiful note brings tears to your eyes and a lump to your throat. Time slows and momentarily a vision fills your eyes of a goddess floating over an ancient pool with tears streaming down her face. Suddenly your movements through the time stream are slowed. You are afflicted with aeon. ?:(a) - (m&m): Slow curing mode enabled.
(m&m): Enabled blackout curing. (-5154h, 100.0%, -6389m, 100.0%, -5808e, 105.3%) You move sluggishly into action. ?:(a) - A dazzling ringing enters your mind. ?:(a) - You are too stunned to be able to do anything. ?:(a) - You are no longer stunned. (2.162s) ?:(a) - (sip phlegmatic) You move sluggishly into action. ?:(a) - You are no longer immune from stun. ?:(a) - You find yourself unwilling to drink while this music is playing. (really?) ?:(a) -(sip phlegmatic) You move sluggishly into action. ?:(a) - Your senses return to you as the blackout ends. (4.379s) (a) 1909h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb- (m&m): Out of blackout, disabled blackout curing. (+1909h, 37.0%, +6389m, 100.0%, +5808e, 105.3%) Raeri takes a long drag off his pipe. (a) 1909h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb- Raeri takes a drink from a glowing onyx vial. (a) 1909h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb- The ache in your ear canals clears up. A violent tremor rocks the land, causing the earth to shake and the ground to buck beneath your feet. (5.944s) (a) 2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
(m&m): Geomancer demesne tic hit Raeri. (even in meld?)
(+412h, 8.0%) You take a drink of a phlegmatic purgative from a glowing bloodstone vial. You return to the normal timestream. You have cured aeon. (5.172s) 2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb- (m&m): Slow curing mode disabled. (sip health|outr earwort|eat earwort|read 79676|recharge 79676 from cube) In a swift, fluid motion, Raeri springs up from his hands to land crouched on his feet. 2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb- Raeri stares at you with a burning intensity. 2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb- Raeri plays a twilight lyre and directs the stately notes towards you. Holy fire erupts at your feet and engulfs you. You die as the holy fire hollows out both your body and soul. You have been slain by Raeri. The mortal threads of your being severed, you scream in agony as the Divine spark within you enfolds your body with scorching flames.
(was undead) -----
Oh and this was from a second incursion where he didnt bother to princessfarewell as it was a group fight.
Raeri plays a twilight lyre and directs the stately notes towards you. Holy fire erupts at your feet and engulfs you. 2754h, 6116m, 5203e, 5p, 21900en, 30383w BsSilrxkb-(read 79676|recharge 79676 from cube)(-1740h, 33.
Note I was not undead the second time nor have any racial weaknesses -and- had fire and divinus defense.
Unfortunately incomplete logs without the big picture (offensive/defensive DMP for the parties involved. Int/cha of Raeri, etc) don't tell me much other than you take a lot of damage. It's certainly a lot but a lot of things do a lot of damage.
@Saesh the fact of the matter isnt the high damage (which truth be told is its own problem) it is how after the buffs the current mechanics allow for an instant shut-down of a player while they nuke them with an ability that, I remind you, was once more than double the cost but for some reason was seen as an 'ok' to reduce down to the point it can be shot at someone 3 times.
Any combat balancer can see that cantors currently have a large advantage in comparison with other fighters. It is the age-old discussion of Choke in that it is ethical to have a combat mechanic given to a class that would neutralize a player's fighting capability? The answer was always no and still is. If a cantor, let alone a bard (which generally is seen as more of a support capability) is able to take on 2 v 1 and walk out unscathed (since basically they neutralize 1 and kill and it becomes a 1v1) then something is most definitely wrong.
I honestly dont see how the current skill could have even been considered as balanced and let out. It in no way defines free play. Hell I wish Cacophony had something this sweet, I might not have left it for more offensive classes.
Pfarewell does synergize nicely with the rest of the cantor kit. It looks like it is a nice lockdown chance with inherent sip failing.
2s stun is fairly strong for an ability with 3.5s eq. That's over half of the eq recovery of the caster that is spent stunned, and the victim comes out in aeon+blackout (that will last for another 2.5s).
Looks like starchord is dealing around 3k damage, even with undead accounted for, does it jump that high from 1.7k damage? Sensitivity, perhaps? 1.7k at neutral racial resists and "some" fire and divinus defence actually sounds normal though the max health is only 5k, so that's still 30% health damage or so. Fairly potent, especially with merian speeds, it'd interesting to see what raeri's dmp was like.
I think the high damage is more important than pfarewell. The stun might need some looking at, because it's quite long for an ability that comes with aeon, but then again, aeon+stun combos aren't uncommon, nor difficult to get out of. As it is, you got out of aeon within 5s of the ability, which costs them 3.5s eq. And that's including a failed sip. That's very decent timing for something that takes 3p to cast, and for a non-guarantee'd sip fail passive. As it is, you would have survived if your latency had been half a second faster, or Raeri had hit half a second slower, because m&m already sent the full health-cure commands the moment you got out of aeon - he just hit you before you could cure.
The problem exists in the damage, Dealing 3k (60%) at merian speeds is quite ridiculous, though, like I mentioned, that's probably thanks to sensitivity. Though I have no idea where he gave it to you, the dazzling ring line, maybe? 1.7k is more manageable, but again, merian speed makes it very dangerous.
If anything, I think we should take fast eq/bal and do away with it. Makes balancing easier without having to account for outliers like this.
And lastly, good gods, save it with the choke comparison already. Pfarewell is nothing like choke, not even in its ability to "neutralize a player's fighting capability". For one, choke allowed you to continue fighting just as perfectly as you could, because in all of its incarnations, the caster was also affected. Thereby, being on the same foot. (In groups, it is a different beast, of course, but that's a moot subject) For two, you were "neutralized" for all of 5 seconds. Inquisition stuns your for longer. Dchord can stun you just as long. Dramaturgy climax probably can as well. Way to go blowing things out of proportion. Ugh.
At the very least, starchord was dealing 2.3k damage, that's 40% health damage. That's still hefty, even with undead. With a 1.7k non undead starchord, though, sensitivity would easily push it to 2k+, and undead could explain the difference. All the little things stack up together to push it over the edge, merian speed, undead weakness to divinus, sensitivity. The last one at least is an affliction that can be cured. Damage typing and merian speed? Not so much. If we have only 1 eq/bal speed for each ability, it would be so much easier to balance abilities.
To be fair, if @Raeri is killing you guys 2v1, that's your fault. Why is your buddy not locking down Raeri? I don't see any help for you in there at all. The meld hit wasn't unsurprising, geomelds aren't super hindering if you aren't being attacked otherwise.
If you're going to post logs, as @Saesh said, post the whole log, beginning to end. Snippets don't provide anything other than he hit you for some big damage, that plenty of other people have easily achieved. I hit @Kelly for over 7k once when jealousy was awesome (w/ a DCC, but that's semantics).
Also looks like a bad ping hit, you sent sip health and before you sippped, he jumped up and killed you.
While I won't side with either side here, because I think it's a valid discussion, you are working off of a few faulty premises.
1) Bards are not a "support class." Every class is designed and intended to function entirely on their own when necessary.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1 and win. It's been seen many, many times in the past. I have a lot of difficulty looking at scenarios where 1 person beat 2 people and assuming that the 1 person simply has a mechanical advantage. I would note that Raeri is a very experienced combatant, as is Kelly.
3) Comparing everything to choke is less of a rational argument and more using "choke" as a buzz word to illicit a particular response. I will tell you that choke was not a problematic mechanic in my perspecitve so far as balance was concerned, though I understand and support its change because it was driven by the players. So referencing it repeatedly may not illicit the response you are desiring. Your time would be better served explaining how this is a "instant shut-down," which, from my perspective, if your biggest hurtle before initiating some type of change here.
I will also point out that there are logs both on Nogfx (I haven't checked to see if it is back up yet) and these forums of people handling Princessfarewell and Cantors. Not to say that these things disprove anything you are saying, but simply that there is evidence to the contrary that this is such an obvious imbalance apparent to everyone.
Even regardless of how terrible Arcanis curing or how min/maxed he is, Cantors are able to kill 1v1 without Octave, that's already better than most Bard guilds. Best chance a Caco has to kill 1v1 is to wait till you pass out from hunger. Loralaria have to go for sleeplock, and even then, any damage they do wakes you up, so they have to use Octave as well just to do enough damage.
I'm not saying PrincessFarewell needs nerfing, I know Merian eq needs nerfing and this wouldn't be that bad if racial balancing is done properly, but the other Bard classes could use their similar skills upgraded if PFarewell continues to exist in its form. QueensLament (and other Caco songs) are getting ninja-nerfed now that writhe entanglement isn't going to exist. 2 power for Blackout and web? Talk about terrible (yes, I mentioned this to the inactive Caco Envoy).
And we've been complaining about Divinus damage since it was created, it is no surprise that Cantors do that much, since they have always done that much against Undead. I doubt the damage or Divinus will ever get nerfed.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
To be fair, if @Raeri is killing you guys 2v1, that's your fault. Why is your buddy not locking down Raeri? I don't see any help for you in there at all. The meld hit wasn't unsurprising, geomelds aren't super hindering if you aren't being attacked otherwise.
If you're going to post logs, as @Saesh said, post the whole log, beginning to end. Snippets don't provide anything other than he hit you for some big damage, that plenty of other people have easily achieved. I hit @Kelly for over 7k once when jealousy was awesome (w/ a DCC, but that's semantics).
Also looks like a bad ping hit, you sent sip health and before you sippped, he jumped up and killed you.
That was the whole log >>.
I havent been posting snippets, the entire affair is basically them walking in, blanknoting, pfarewell and then going to town. Why do you think I am complaining so much about it.
While I won't side with either side here, because I think it's a valid discussion, you are working off of a few faulty premises.
1) Bards are not a "support class." Every class is designed and intended to function entirely on their own when necessary.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1 and win. It's been seen many, many times in the past. I have a lot of difficulty looking at scenarios where 1 person beat 2 people and assuming that the 1 person simply has a mechanical advantage. I would note that Raeri is a very experienced combatant, as is Kelly.
3) Comparing everything to choke is less of a rational argument and more using "choke" as a buzz word to illicit a particular response. I will tell you that choke was not a problematic mechanic in my perspecitve so far as balance was concerned, though I understand and support its change because it was driven by the players. So referencing it repeatedly may not illicit the response you are desiring. Your time would be better served explaining how this is a "instant shut-down," which, from my perspective, if your biggest hurtle before initiating some type of change here.
As an aside, Recessional doesn't remove sip balance. So if you miss a sip/herb from it, try sipping/eating again.
EDIT: You might also try upkeeping blacktea to combat blackout. It won't help much, but it's better than nothing.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
While I won't side with either side here, because I think it's a valid discussion, you are working off of a few faulty premises.
1) Bards are not a "support class." Every class is designed and intended to function entirely on their own when necessary.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1 and win. It's been seen many, many times in the past. I have a lot of difficulty looking at scenarios where 1 person beat 2 people and assuming that the 1 person simply has a mechanical advantage. I would note that Raeri is a very experienced combatant, as is Kelly.
3) Comparing everything to choke is less of a rational argument and more using "choke" as a buzz word to illicit a particular response. I will tell you that choke was not a problematic mechanic in my perspecitve so far as balance was concerned, though I understand and support its change because it was driven by the players. So referencing it repeatedly may not illicit the response you are desiring. Your time would be better served explaining how this is a "instant shut-down," which, from my perspective, if your biggest hurtle before initiating some type of change here.
in response.
1) Bards have several support capabilities and several of their songs are actually made to enhance their allies (Citysong? Angel/Demon/Fae song? Increased balance song? Undead song?). Additionally, reason why I say support is because Bards have never been (nor do I feel were meant to be) hard hitting soul wracking fiends, frankly that falls more towards Mage (which is built around offensiveness) and Guardians.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1, and usually anyone watching can see their skill. Tell me, where in the previous log is there at all any skill in walking in, blanknoting, princessfarewelling, and shooting starchords? This is the definition of skilled fighting? I wonder what people like Ixion and Fillin can be considered now. Additionally, since you brought up Kelly, let us take a peek into her backlog, as a Knight, she was actually one of the best currently around, having utilized all her abilities to the best and getting those beheads. Now let's look in Cantor form....a princessfarewell, dramaturgy hidden afflict and starchords. We are comparing the two? One actually took initiative and drive to pull off, the other took a few aliases? Raeri is not in definition a 'skilled' fighter, no offense to him, but he cannot compare to such people like Ixion, Akyaevin, Karlach and so forth. If you consider what he does as skilled then I have lost all hope in lusternian combat balance.
3) Reason I bring up Choke so often is because it was the definition of a bad combat mechanic that hindered the game far more than advanced it, simply because it made payers feel helpless. Yes I know Glom had defended it tooth and nail and then some, even till now we see defenses for it, but that doesnt change the fact that so much of the playerbase was outcrying at this ability, a playerbase that more than likely has experienced their fair share of combat balances and mechanics in the other IRE and obviously see a problem, a playerbase that had several up and quit from such abilities to finally get some recognition to get rid of such toxic mechanics, then yes I will quite strongly stick to the point that this ability is similar in its makeup (player-wise) to choke.
Additionally, I find the passive dismissiveness somewhat disheartening. I am posting these not because I am attempting some shady concept of getting a skill nerfed because "Just cant handle it", I am stating a point of view of an ability mechanic that if left unchecked in its current state will have the same negative ramificatoins I have seen in the past. Right now I admit I would love if Arix was still around to way in on the negative side-effects such mechanics have had on the game.
loled at saying Karlach is more "skilled" than Raeri
This thread is great. I'd offer up something constructive, but, I don't know where to start. Maybe here... we spend 1600 credits to get a 20% magic damage buff. That same 1600-credit investment could get you 15% more vitals as well as a good amount of learning into resilience. I'm just saying, if you want to play with the elite fighters, then you should have to put the same investment in.
Again, damage is probably broken across the board right now, especially for people with high level damage runes (like Raeri has), on top of all the various buffs from curio, kirigami, beer, song buff, war domoth, etc. That, paired with the superior damage typing is certainly the issue here. That is, if you had been facing a more vanilla Cantor, without the magic damage rune and with only a median level of non-class buffs, you would have been fine - the specific issue you bring up isn't inherent to the Cantor skills, it's a byproduct of buffing/deffing stacks/deficiencies, and the way damage calculates. Taking into account all of these potential buffs in a simple manner would leave the 'vanilla' players left majorly in the lurch, so it's hard to balance around these top-tier artifacts. Just like with warriors, and chems.
1) Bards have been damage dealers forever and a day, they have some support abilities and roles, but at the end of the day, they deal damage. As long as I've been a bard, they've been "hardhitting, soulwracking fiends."
2) You know, Ixion and Fillin would have tanked that damage, just saying, and Kelly would switch to inquisition tactics as a warrior against anyone that had decent curing because building wounds takes entirely too much time. Yes, bard is much much easier than warrior, I've been saying that for ages.
3) Choke, if anything, is the epitome of 'complain for change' attitudes that are incredibly common today, and the real true sign of good combatants in those days were the ones that dealt with choke just fine. Fillin, Narsrim, Vathael all handled choke incredibly well, Narsrim use to force people to choke him. By bringing up choke, you're really just bringing up that you can't handle an ability, not that it's too strong.
And lastly, here's the thing you need to remember and consider. Balancing must take place around the top-tier. To balance around the middle means that those in the top-tier just get crazy tanky and crazy powerful while the middle guys struggle to kill each other and them. Yes, it means that if you aren't in the top tier, you're going to have a harder time because things are balanced considering certain factors you may not have. Ideally the buff system will tone down damage, but it's also probably going to tone down health/mana/ego blessings as well, which is going to bring the top more in line with the middle and further balancing can be done.
... 3) Reason I bring up Choke so often is because it was the definition of a bad combat mechanic that hindered the game far more than advanced it, simply because it made payers feel helpless. Yes I know Glom had defended it tooth and nail and then some, even till now we see defenses for it, but that doesnt change the fact that so much of the playerbase was outcrying at this ability, a playerbase that more than likely has experienced their fair share of combat balances and mechanics in the other IRE and obviously see a problem, a playerbase that had several up and quit from such abilities to finally get some recognition to get rid of such toxic mechanics, then yes I will quite strongly stick to the point that this ability is similar in its makeup (player-wise) to choke. ...
Just because there were people "outcrying" about choke doesn't mean it was actually unbalanced. "Experience" in combat balances and mechanics does not make a good argument. A good argument makes a good argument, nothing else. You've not brought up anything about choke and pfarewell that was accurate, much less anything resembling an argument, much less anything near "good". Just because there have been people quitting from choke (first I've heard of it, wonder who they are) doesn't prove anything about any point that pfarewell "is similar in its makeup to choke". You can continue blowing that horn, I guess. For those of us who are genuinely interested in finding out if pfarewell needs toning down, however, you're just putting obstructions in the way.
Do the other bard classes need buffs? I don't know. There could be more than enough reason for it. Just because cantors have pfarewell, however, does not make a good enough reason to buff other bards - if another bard class needs a buff, there has to be a reason for it beyond "Cantors have pfarewell". Upcoming writhe changes is certainly a good place to start a justification for change. Similarly, does pfarewell need a nerf? Maybe, I've mentioned the stun time a couple of times. However, if it needs a nerf, it's not because "the other bards don't have it". It'll only need a nerf because it's too powerful, not because the other bards have something weaker.
Finally, about the 2v1 thing. The only reason you're getting wrecked 2v1 by a blanknote-pfarewell-starchord straight up is because you're not tanky enough. That or starchord damage is too high. Pfarewell has little to do with it. You're getting hit 30% going on 40% of your max health damage every 3-3.5s, and you're crying about a 3p aeon/stun/blackout that you're fully cured out off in 5s? Raeri could let you drink all the health you wanted and probably bash you to death after landing pfifth. That's why I've been saying, it's the damage (or the speed) that is the problem. We have on our hands a case that can justify removing fast eq/bal that has always screwed up balance due to its propensity to give birth to outliers, or removing the (in my opinion) idiotic excoro/divinus damage typing in PVP that is causing these niche and really un-needed (flavour? yeah, it's fun, but can we draw a line somewhere?) problems. Or even just to nerf starchord itself. But no, you want to talk about pfarewell and choke.
Pft just drop special skills and go swing clubs, cast blasts, and play minorseconds. We don't need this fancy stuff. Then imagine the "back in my day we used to be able to" stories
EDIT: Weird. When you're in recklessness, you must have the system assume you have certain vitals, but why would that make it so that those are reported on the prompt? It'd be more worthwhile (I think) to have a "YOU HAVE RECKLESSNESS, YOU TIT" prompt be more obvious than incorrect vitals with a little questionmark.
Comments
Signature!
5154h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29887w BesSilrxkdb-
Your masochistic tendencies go into remission.
Raeri plays a twilight lyre, and you cry out as your deaf ears open up to the sound of a high-
pitched note.
Your ears open up, though you lose your true hearing.
You have cured deafness.
5154h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29887w BesSilrxkb-
"Perhaps it was a snowing cloud - shaped like a mammoth with wings!" sings Raeri, making a twilight
lyre fairly weep with tragic notes, and he looks directly at you.
Filled with a haunting sorrow and unlimited love, an excruciatingly beautiful note brings tears to
your eyes and a lump to your throat. Time slows and momentarily a vision fills your eyes of a
goddess floating over an ancient pool with tears streaming down her face.
Suddenly your movements through the time stream are slowed.
You are afflicted with aeon.
?:(a) -
(m&m): Slow curing mode enabled.
(m&m): Enabled blackout curing.
(-5154h, 100.0%, -6389m, 100.0%, -5808e, 105.3%)
You move sluggishly into action.
?:(a) -
A dazzling ringing enters your mind.
?:(a) -
You are too stunned to be able to do anything.
?:(a) -
You are no longer stunned. (2.162s)
?:(a) -
(sip phlegmatic)
You move sluggishly into action.
?:(a) -
You are no longer immune from stun.
?:(a) -
You find yourself unwilling to drink while this music is playing. (really?)
?:(a) -(sip phlegmatic)
You move sluggishly into action.
?:(a) -
Your senses return to you as the blackout ends. (4.379s)
(a) 1909h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
(m&m): Out of blackout, disabled blackout curing.
(+1909h, 37.0%, +6389m, 100.0%, +5808e, 105.3%)
Raeri takes a long drag off his pipe.
(a) 1909h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
Raeri takes a drink from a glowing onyx vial.
(a) 1909h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
The ache in your ear canals clears up.
A violent tremor rocks the land, causing the earth to shake and the ground to buck beneath your feet. (5.944s)
(a) 2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
(m&m): Geomancer demesne tic hit Raeri. (even in meld?)
(+412h, 8.0%)
You take a drink of a phlegmatic purgative from a glowing bloodstone vial.
You return to the normal timestream.
You have cured aeon. (5.172s)
2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
(m&m): Slow curing mode disabled.
(sip health|outr earwort|eat earwort|read 79676|recharge 79676 from cube)
In a swift, fluid motion, Raeri springs up from his hands to land crouched on his feet.
2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
Raeri stares at you with a burning intensity.
2321h, 6389m, 5808e, 10p, 21900en, 29901w BesSilrxkb-
Raeri plays a twilight lyre and directs the stately notes towards you.
Holy fire erupts at your feet and engulfs you.
You die as the holy fire hollows out both your body and soul.
You have been slain by Raeri.
The mortal threads of your being severed, you scream in agony as the Divine spark within you enfolds
your body with scorching flames.
(was undead)
-----
Oh and this was from a second incursion where he didnt bother to princessfarewell as it was a group fight.
Raeri plays a twilight lyre and directs the stately notes towards you.
Holy fire erupts at your feet and engulfs you.
2754h, 6116m, 5203e, 5p, 21900en, 30383w BsSilrxkb-(read 79676|recharge 79676 from cube)(-1740h, 33.
Note I was not undead the second time nor have any racial weaknesses -and- had fire and divinus defense.
Any combat balancer can see that cantors currently have a large advantage in comparison with other fighters. It is the age-old discussion of Choke in that it is ethical to have a combat mechanic given to a class that would neutralize a player's fighting capability? The answer was always no and still is. If a cantor, let alone a bard (which generally is seen as more of a support capability) is able to take on 2 v 1 and walk out unscathed (since basically they neutralize 1 and kill and it becomes a 1v1) then something is most definitely wrong.
I honestly dont see how the current skill could have even been considered as balanced and let out. It in no way defines free play. Hell I wish Cacophony had something this sweet, I might not have left it for more offensive classes.
2s stun is fairly strong for an ability with 3.5s eq. That's over half of the eq recovery of the caster that is spent stunned, and the victim comes out in aeon+blackout (that will last for another 2.5s).
Looks like starchord is dealing around 3k damage, even with undead accounted for, does it jump that high from 1.7k damage? Sensitivity, perhaps? 1.7k at neutral racial resists and "some" fire and divinus defence actually sounds normal though the max health is only 5k, so that's still 30% health damage or so. Fairly potent, especially with merian speeds, it'd interesting to see what raeri's dmp was like.
The problem exists in the damage, Dealing 3k (60%) at merian speeds is quite ridiculous, though, like I mentioned, that's probably thanks to sensitivity. Though I have no idea where he gave it to you, the dazzling ring line, maybe? 1.7k is more manageable, but again, merian speed makes it very dangerous.
If anything, I think we should take fast eq/bal and do away with it. Makes balancing easier without having to account for outliers like this.
And lastly, good gods, save it with the choke comparison already. Pfarewell is nothing like choke, not even in its ability to "neutralize a player's fighting capability". For one, choke allowed you to continue fighting just as perfectly as you could, because in all of its incarnations, the caster was also affected. Thereby, being on the same foot. (In groups, it is a different beast, of course, but that's a moot subject) For two, you were "neutralized" for all of 5 seconds. Inquisition stuns your for longer. Dchord can stun you just as long. Dramaturgy climax probably can as well. Way to go blowing things out of proportion. Ugh.
While I won't side with either side here, because I think it's a valid discussion, you are working off of a few faulty premises.
1) Bards are not a "support class." Every class is designed and intended to function entirely on their own when necessary.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1 and win. It's been seen many, many times in the past. I have a lot of difficulty looking at scenarios where 1 person beat 2 people and assuming that the 1 person simply has a mechanical advantage. I would note that Raeri is a very experienced combatant, as is Kelly.
3) Comparing everything to choke is less of a rational argument and more using "choke" as a buzz word to illicit a particular response. I will tell you that choke was not a problematic mechanic in my perspecitve so far as balance was concerned, though I understand and support its change because it was driven by the players. So referencing it repeatedly may not illicit the response you are desiring. Your time would be better served explaining how this is a "instant shut-down," which, from my perspective, if your biggest hurtle before initiating some type of change here.
I'm not saying PrincessFarewell needs nerfing, I know Merian eq needs nerfing and this wouldn't be that bad if racial balancing is done properly, but the other Bard classes could use their similar skills upgraded if PFarewell continues to exist in its form. QueensLament (and other Caco songs) are getting ninja-nerfed now that writhe entanglement isn't going to exist. 2 power for Blackout and web? Talk about terrible (yes, I mentioned this to the inactive Caco Envoy).
And we've been complaining about Divinus damage since it was created, it is no surprise that Cantors do that much, since they have always done that much against Undead. I doubt the damage or Divinus will ever get nerfed.
That was the whole log >>.
I havent been posting snippets, the entire affair is basically them walking in, blanknoting, pfarewell and then going to town. Why do you think I am complaining so much about it.
EDIT: You might also try upkeeping blacktea to combat blackout. It won't help much, but it's better than nothing.
in response.
1) Bards have several support capabilities and several of their songs are actually made to enhance their allies (Citysong? Angel/Demon/Fae song? Increased balance song? Undead song?). Additionally, reason why I say support is because Bards have never been (nor do I feel were meant to be) hard hitting soul wracking fiends, frankly that falls more towards Mage (which is built around offensiveness) and Guardians.
2) Good PKers can successfully 2v1, and usually anyone watching can see their skill. Tell me, where in the previous log is there at all any skill in walking in, blanknoting, princessfarewelling, and shooting starchords? This is the definition of skilled fighting? I wonder what people like Ixion and Fillin can be considered now. Additionally, since you brought up Kelly, let us take a peek into her backlog, as a Knight, she was actually one of the best currently around, having utilized all her abilities to the best and getting those beheads. Now let's look in Cantor form....a princessfarewell, dramaturgy hidden afflict and starchords. We are comparing the two? One actually took initiative and drive to pull off, the other took a few aliases? Raeri is not in definition a 'skilled' fighter, no offense to him, but he cannot compare to such people like Ixion, Akyaevin, Karlach and so forth. If you consider what he does as skilled then I have lost all hope in lusternian combat balance.
3) Reason I bring up Choke so often is because it was the definition of a bad combat mechanic that hindered the game far more than advanced it, simply because it made payers feel helpless. Yes I know Glom had defended it tooth and nail and then some, even till now we see defenses for it, but that doesnt change the fact that so much of the playerbase was outcrying at this ability, a playerbase that more than likely has experienced their fair share of combat balances and mechanics in the other IRE and obviously see a problem, a playerbase that had several up and quit from such abilities to finally get some recognition to get rid of such toxic mechanics, then yes I will quite strongly stick to the point that this ability is similar in its makeup (player-wise) to choke.
Additionally, I find the passive dismissiveness somewhat disheartening. I am posting these not because I am attempting some shady concept of getting a skill nerfed because "Just cant handle it", I am stating a point of view of an ability mechanic that if left unchecked in its current state will have the same negative ramificatoins I have seen in the past. Right now I admit I would love if Arix was still around to way in on the negative side-effects such mechanics have had on the game.
Do the other bard classes need buffs? I don't know. There could be more than enough reason for it. Just because cantors have pfarewell, however, does not make a good enough reason to buff other bards - if another bard class needs a buff, there has to be a reason for it beyond "Cantors have pfarewell". Upcoming writhe changes is certainly a good place to start a justification for change. Similarly, does pfarewell need a nerf? Maybe, I've mentioned the stun time a couple of times. However, if it needs a nerf, it's not because "the other bards don't have it". It'll only need a nerf because it's too powerful, not because the other bards have something weaker.
Finally, about the 2v1 thing. The only reason you're getting wrecked 2v1 by a blanknote-pfarewell-starchord straight up is because you're not tanky enough. That or starchord damage is too high. Pfarewell has little to do with it. You're getting hit 30% going on 40% of your max health damage every 3-3.5s, and you're crying about a 3p aeon/stun/blackout that you're fully cured out off in 5s? Raeri could let you drink all the health you wanted and probably bash you to death after landing pfifth. That's why I've been saying, it's the damage (or the speed) that is the problem. We have on our hands a case that can justify removing fast eq/bal that has always screwed up balance due to its propensity to give birth to outliers, or removing the (in my opinion) idiotic excoro/divinus damage typing in PVP that is causing these niche and really un-needed (flavour? yeah, it's fun, but can we draw a line somewhere?) problems. Or even just to nerf starchord itself. But no, you want to talk about pfarewell and choke.
Also I don't know how to internet and tagging sounds like sorcery.