No, I get it: The assumption of vitals makes sense, as does doing it at a moderate instead of a "I have zero of everything" level. Why have your prompt mislead YOU though?
When you're posting a log, there's a box at the bottom that asks for tags. Enter something like "Lusternia combat Shuyin Raeri Pfairwell Gank".
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I will wholly admit that I don't know what it's like being under PrincessFarewell. But I have been under greywhispers. AKA
WARNING
I AM BIASED
WARNING
Keeping the above in mind, I think greywhispers could stand to have a cure other than "nothing." Either making the time it lasts for shorter or making it that you must be out of the room of the caster for 3 seconds or something before you can cure it, it needs to be curable. It can keep all the lovely afflictions it causes, but please for the love of all things holy and unholy can it have a cure.
And to use Kelly's argument earlier in the thread, the only two Illuminati that fight on a regular basis are both Vernal Ascendents. I think Shuyin was using a Vernal beast power that can give up to 4 afflictions at once.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
Scrambledwave seems to have suffered numberwise in the overhaul, although the affs are stronger (they're all lucidity cure though). I rarely give more than one and haven't seen more than two from clumsiness, stupidity, paranoia, amnesia. Can't remember what old afflictions were - I think amnesia, stupidity, hypochondria, dementia ... can't remember the fifth. But there was a fifth, which probably got folded in to one of the others as part of the overhaul.
I just bashed him under aeon, nothing particularly novel. Doable with any guardian/wiccan class.
If anything, destruction is the real star of this show.
Just like all guardian classes, all the power is thrown in preparation before the battle, leaving your power pool virtually untouched in the thick of it as your archangel/demon does nice double attacks 5evr and you enjoy strong, power buffs that stay until logout/death (I think this is kind of problematic but w/e).
The only issue I have here for Illuminati is destro obviously and the fact that you can cast badluck and greywhispers for 0 power via homunculus. That's 6 power worth of strong Paradigmatics skills for free because you summoned a 10p Transmology homunculus in a safe spot where your power has time to regenerate easily.
Eh, the lack of power on greywhispers and badluck is less of a problem than homunculus taking no balance to cast it. I don't get the complaints about wiccan/guardian power. Their kit is designed to deal consistent, passive afflictions, and they are conceived and balanced at a certain ouput. Greywhispers and badluck being on the target is part of their repertoire. If greywhispers and badluck are dealing too much afflictions for the "balanced" state, then what should be nerfed is the output itself, not the power.
Power is a moderating resource for bursts, not for consistent pressure abilities. Certain abilities are given power costs mostly to restrict the ability to spam them over and over in a short period of time. Greywhispers and badluck both last very long, long enough that even with the power cost, it hardly makes a difference in limiting its use. Burst orientated classes are naturally more power heavy, because... well, they deal bursts, and need to be moderated via power. Those with less bursts, or less powerful busts, naturally won't need as much power costs.
The problem with the homuculus spellcasting is that it gives the Illuminati a free balance to use. They can reapply greywhispers (or badluck) without needing to break their offensive momentum. There is no opportunity cost, and also a smaller window for the opponent for a breather. It removes the advantage someone with good curing should be able to get - after surviving long enough, the passive pressure should (theoretically) have eased up a bit as the spells wear off. But since they can be reapplied without balance cost, the pressure never does.
Now, is this overpowered? That requires a more in-depth look at the affliction output and the nature of the afflictions. If it is too much, then the output should be scaled down, make greywhisper ticks longer inbetween, remove an affliction that is too powerful etc etc. Adding a power cost does not help to tone down anything, and it is definitely a misplaced complaint.
Greywhispers is comparable to Harmonics Ruby in terms of eating up your cures and spamminess, and Aeonics Oracle in terms of afflicting. (just 3p so far, and it'd probably be better to get a Researcher in to confirm).
Badluck...Xiel's site doesn't really say what it does, but from what I can see from report 912, it just sort of exacerbates temp ins from all other sources like Revelations, Eyesnare etc.
I really do think the power cost is the issue, -as well as- the free balance. Having less than 5 power, even for an instant in the middle of combat means that they have to choose a little better when it comes to offense and defense.
The problem with Illuminati has never been their killing potential, you're absolutely right that Illuminates are almost impossible to pull off and prohibitively costly in terms of power. They're just such hinder monsters that nobody can compare. How hard is it to run away from a Researcher/Celestine/Nihilist/wiccan versus how difficult is it to run away from an Illuminatus. I'm talking your regular casual PKer with Vadi's system. I know Kelly can kill you, Shuyin, but what about the rest of us? Why does everyone that wants to PvP have to sink in ungodly amounts of credits (whether earned by money or time IG bashing) to be effective and survive? I know this argument is tired and beaten to death, and that the Overhaul is working to fix it...but the pay2win aspect is really, to me, very prevalent in this game.
EDIT: I also believe the removal of cleanse cures will really balance out Illuminati. Then we can work on changing destro's damage typing and power and everything will be gucci.
Badluck was nerfed pretty hard - all it does now is increase tempinsanity based on mental affs and unless you're fighting a hexen, mental affs probably aren't too bad. Definitely not something to worry about.
Greywhispers is similiarly not a big deal, one affliction and some temp insanity every so often for a 2 minutes isn't really overly strong.
Yes, Illuminati pressure balances really well, but they can be kept up with. @Silvanus mentioned karma blessings, there are other skills/abilities that can help you cope.
Edit: I beat Feyda in an FFA the other day, caught her with her pants down, it took awhile, but good fights should take awhile if both people are on the ball. Never once did I think to myself, man, I'm spammed with affllictions, whatever will I do.
Eh, the pay2win aspect is hardly as bad here as elsewhere, and it's hardly the main point of the overhaul either.
Pay2participate is the problem with Lusternian combat (green) that the overhaul aims to help alleviate a little, or to be more specific, learn4threemonths2participate... and then still not understand what's going on. Shuyin wins because of his experience, not really because of his kit. He was better as a warrior, imo. He's squishier nowadays then back when he would go in as ebonguard and tank everything while we just slowly took the opponents down one by one.
Edit: To clarify, if you think dumping 2000 dollars into this game will help you compete against Shuyin, you better rethink that purchase or you'll be down with a very painful case of buyer's remorse.
Ehhh. Some classes are definitely further along the pay2win bracket than others, though what that says about those classes is complex. There is no artifact that functionally buffs Druid offense, for instance - the only artifact that directly affects a Druid's ability to compete is the demesne rune, which doesn't do anything to make the druid more deadly. On the other hand, you look at the gap between an unartied warrior and a fully artifacted warrior, it's pretty huge (for a big pricetag). That's more of a problem for warriors than anyone facing the warrior, though. Those artifacts and the damage boosting artifacts are the worst for pushing pay2win in Lusternia, hopefully physical class and damag changes will cut down on their frankly overwhelming strength.
Pretending that Illuminati isn't in the top five powerful classes is lunacy though, especially for the current combat environment. Sure, there are some classes with ways to deal with Illuminati 1v1, and gambits that can be taken to mitigate their relatively high affliction output, hindering, and cure hindering in those situations... But that's not where the majority of combat occurs, and using a 1v1 log against a new, unleveled champion falls apart. Illuminati are good, if not the best at consistent hindering with high affliction output, great hindering abilities, high ability to prevent enemy movement (which is HUGE) with little to no prep, good damage and damage type choices, high priority affs (rip ecto) on command, and strong defensive abilities (not on par with Sacraments, but that's another story). Illuminate might be really hard work, but when was the last time you saw someone crunched or thornrended in group combat? Who cares that you might not get the kill credit, you can totally bork an enemy combatant quickly (with no prep) and consistently.
Can we get a log of you versus Feyda? I always hear this "Illuminati aren't so bad, look at me I can do just fine" - True Ascendant Synkarin.
Or maybe some of your time as a Symphonist versus Gaudiguchian guilds.
But I never see logs. Nobody even had anything to say about my log versus Shuyin during Anniversary Battlechess other than "chaos karma blessing" and "don't cure mucous" (the latter being really quite risky in group combat). Personally, I should've fused an emerald into my violin for extra passive curing. But...not much else.
1v1 logs are besides the point. I can handle most Illuminati (ones who fall prey to Hadrudin easily) 1v1 because I have skills that work better in 1v1 than they tend to do in groups, where I'm getting dogpiled. Illuminati don't really shine in 1v1.
They're excellent in group combat, where dealing with the Illuminatus attacking you occupies most of your time, and they can punish you for not dealing with them first (while their entire group is wailing on you).
IIRC, the group versions work differently, they're not literally attacks that apply instances of the affs to everyone.
But yes, you could greywhispers and badluck an entire enemy team without using power or balance loss, eventually. The homunculus does have its own balance that's semi-long ( iirc?) and the homunculus versions don't last as long. The real power of homunculus casting is that your opening move can be greywhispers/badluck AND hangedman (or lust tarot or whatever).
So can you instantly apply greywhispers/badluck to an entire enemy group with no balance loss? That does seem like a little much.
The group versions are not castable via homunculus, I think, though I could be wrong.
Well, I'm saying more that if you can individually apply it an infinite number of times without loss, then you could apply it to everyone in the room freely (unless there's some other limiting factor?).
I'll also say, particularly having fought as a Paladin against
Illuminati, that it does seem a bit impossible to get anywhere with
non-burst strategies like wounding while dealing with the passive
hindering. And then even dabbling as a Cantor, I need to stick
disloyalty, or I'm going to get owned under an aeon+destro/soulless
trap. Again, I can't think of any other class where "kill the ent" has
been the response to dealing with passive effects, or where having to use disloyalty has been an absolute must.
Well, Nihilists had some of that, which is why I'd place them up there in the top classes too. Wiccans have gone through phases of that issue too, especially in Choke days - but that's almost always in 1v1 combat because of sleeplocking.
EDIT: I find fighting Illums tolerable in 1v1 because I can easily split them from their ents and most people aren't good at tracking and consistently recalling their ents, even if it's a free action. That, and keeping away until I'm ready to beast spit hadrudin/sap.
kill the pooka has always been the response to dealing with sleeplock MD's, and it's really nothing new. Disloyalty was always a must against choke SD's as well.
Warriors also will struggle the most against Illuminati, followed up by monks, it's just the nature of the class and it's a similiar struggle to other guardian classes.
Homunculus have a balance time, I don't remember the exact number off hand, but it's comparable to other ents, like 10-12 seconds ballpark.
Also @Maligorn - I sent you a whole list of Loralaria tips and suggestions based on that log via tells and mentioned some of the more important things in that thread. I don't have any logs, but the Feyda FFA was mostly us thwarting each other's soulless attempts.
It's 12s. The disadvantage of the homunculus is that when you die you usually die twice, as it resurrects you unbuffed in a group of enemies that are still targeting you.
Right, in 1v1 that's the case. It's not really in group combat, where you aren't going to be sleeplocked and we got rid of choke. It's just not practical or reasonable (or balancing) advice to "Just kill all the ents" in group combat.
Shuyin's log makes it look like homunculus balance is shorter than 10 seconds, though he doesn't have timestamps. He attacks with it during a combo, from which he gets back balance in 2.7 seconds. He attacks again right on balance returning prompt, and is off balance for another 2.7 seconds. He makes a third attack of 2.7 seconds balance time, and homunculus regains balance before he does. That puts the time between 5.4 seconds and 8.1 seconds balance time.
I don't understand. Are the illuminati overpowered because of their hinder or because of their affliction output? Wasn't that what started the entire conversation? Greywhispers and badluck? Is it their hinder that is the problem instead? Any class with hangedman is already a decent hinder class. Warriors dislike me intensely when I stack acro dodge with scorpiontail and sliced biceps/thighs. Tahtetso inspire tearing out of the hair when they double hemi into regen-prone hell. Ecto gives any physical class a migraine. A geomancer TK is the game's best matchmaker for any butt looking for a floor to be his wife. Sure, I haven't fought an illuminati as much as the rest of you, but well, let's just say classes with strong hinders isn't new.
I dunno, if there is a balance problem with Illuminati that needs changing, I don't think deleting transfix will fix a lot. It doesn't affect me though, so if it lights your fires, why not? Just get rid of that, then.
Comments
When you're posting a log, there's a box at the bottom that asks for tags. Enter something like "Lusternia combat Shuyin Raeri Pfairwell Gank".
Also, kill the spix and the homonculus.
And to use Kelly's argument earlier in the thread, the only two Illuminati that fight on a regular basis are both Vernal Ascendents. I think Shuyin was using a Vernal beast power that can give up to 4 afflictions at once.
The only issue I have here for Illuminati is destro obviously and the fact that you can cast badluck and greywhispers for 0 power via homunculus. That's 6 power worth of strong Paradigmatics skills for free because you summoned a 10p Transmology homunculus in a safe spot where your power has time to regenerate easily.
Power is a moderating resource for bursts, not for consistent pressure abilities. Certain abilities are given power costs mostly to restrict the ability to spam them over and over in a short period of time. Greywhispers and badluck both last very long, long enough that even with the power cost, it hardly makes a difference in limiting its use. Burst orientated classes are naturally more power heavy, because... well, they deal bursts, and need to be moderated via power. Those with less bursts, or less powerful busts, naturally won't need as much power costs.
The problem with the homuculus spellcasting is that it gives the Illuminati a free balance to use. They can reapply greywhispers (or badluck) without needing to break their offensive momentum. There is no opportunity cost, and also a smaller window for the opponent for a breather. It removes the advantage someone with good curing should be able to get - after surviving long enough, the passive pressure should (theoretically) have eased up a bit as the spells wear off. But since they can be reapplied without balance cost, the pressure never does.
Now, is this overpowered? That requires a more in-depth look at the affliction output and the nature of the afflictions. If it is too much, then the output should be scaled down, make greywhisper ticks longer inbetween, remove an affliction that is too powerful etc etc. Adding a power cost does not help to tone down anything, and it is definitely a misplaced complaint.
Badluck...Xiel's site doesn't really say what it does, but from what I can see from report 912, it just sort of exacerbates temp ins from all other sources like Revelations, Eyesnare etc.
I really do think the power cost is the issue, -as well as- the free balance. Having less than 5 power, even for an instant in the middle of combat means that they have to choose a little better when it comes to offense and defense.
The problem with Illuminati has never been their killing potential, you're absolutely right that Illuminates are almost impossible to pull off and prohibitively costly in terms of power. They're just such hinder monsters that nobody can compare. How hard is it to run away from a Researcher/Celestine/Nihilist/wiccan versus how difficult is it to run away from an Illuminatus. I'm talking your regular casual PKer with Vadi's system. I know Kelly can kill you, Shuyin, but what about the rest of us? Why does everyone that wants to PvP have to sink in ungodly amounts of credits (whether earned by money or time IG bashing) to be effective and survive? I know this argument is tired and beaten to death, and that the Overhaul is working to fix it...but the pay2win aspect is really, to me, very prevalent in this game.
EDIT: I also believe the removal of cleanse cures will really balance out Illuminati. Then we can work on changing destro's damage typing and power and everything will be gucci.
Pay2participate is the problem with Lusternian combat (green) that the overhaul aims to help alleviate a little, or to be more specific, learn4threemonths2participate... and then still not understand what's going on. Shuyin wins because of his experience, not really because of his kit. He was better as a warrior, imo. He's squishier nowadays then back when he would go in as ebonguard and tank everything while we just slowly took the opponents down one by one.
Edit: To clarify, if you think dumping 2000 dollars into this game will help you compete against Shuyin, you better rethink that purchase or you'll be down with a very painful case of buyer's remorse.
Or maybe some of your time as a Symphonist versus Gaudiguchian guilds.
But I never see logs. Nobody even had anything to say about my log versus Shuyin during Anniversary Battlechess other than "chaos karma blessing" and "don't cure mucous" (the latter being really quite risky in group combat). Personally, I should've fused an emerald into my violin for extra passive curing. But...not much else.
The group versions are not castable via homunculus, I think, though I could be wrong.
But yes, you could greywhispers and badluck an entire enemy team without using power or balance loss, eventually. The homunculus does have its own balance that's semi-long ( iirc?) and the homunculus versions don't last as long. The real power of homunculus casting is that your opening move can be greywhispers/badluck AND hangedman (or lust tarot or whatever).
I'll also say, particularly having fought as a Paladin against Illuminati, that it does seem a bit impossible to get anywhere with non-burst strategies like wounding while dealing with the passive hindering. And then even dabbling as a Cantor, I need to stick disloyalty, or I'm going to get owned under an aeon+destro/soulless trap. Again, I can't think of any other class where "kill the ent" has been the response to dealing with passive effects, or where having to use disloyalty has been an absolute must.
Shuyin's log makes it look like homunculus balance is shorter than 10 seconds, though he doesn't have timestamps. He attacks with it during a combo, from which he gets back balance in 2.7 seconds. He attacks again right on balance returning prompt, and is off balance for another 2.7 seconds. He makes a third attack of 2.7 seconds balance time, and homunculus regains balance before he does. That puts the time between 5.4 seconds and 8.1 seconds balance time.
I dunno, if there is a balance problem with Illuminati that needs changing, I don't think deleting transfix will fix a lot. It doesn't affect me though, so if it lights your fires, why not? Just get rid of that, then.