Well, not really. This thread is almost entirely talking about the problems involved with requiring tremendous amounts of grinding to compete or as a tax on failure. Obviating the need to grind mindlessly wouldn't necessarily remove the possibility of grinding for those who are so inclined.
@Enyalida I never considered Lusternia too ``grindy'', let alone
requiring tremendous amounts of the stuff. The levels just flew past
when I finally buckled-down and got to it. I never even lost sight of
reaching demigod since a noticeable advance towards could be made in
just a few hours (which is great, because I can usually only play for
just 2-3 hours). I guess losing demigod status might be considered a
major step-back, but a reserve of essence is like Lusternian Express:
Don't leave home without it. I just can't see how someone is going to
lose Demi and be surprised at the same time, so I really don't see a
major ``death-penalty'' (since there's no permadeath, it's more of
``wuss-slapping-penalty'').
Losses through misfortune do happen,
true. I can't count the number of times Delphas was slain by one mob or
another, but even at the higher levels (90+) I never lost more than a
few minutes of work. Heck! I'm more peeved about any essence I was
carrying or if a mob ran off with one of my possessions than I'm mad
about the Xp loss. Delphas even fell backwards from 83 to 79 on purpose once (necessary for a pilgrimage of his own conception), and let me tell you that actually took effort!
It takes long time to lose that much Xp. It wasn't the sort of thing
that can happen because the phone rang, or the bacon was burning, or the
laundry needed sorting; a person really has to work to lose that much Xp. The punishment? I think I gained it all back in almost no time, and I'm a part-time player.
I
can understand that many would prefer to simply skip the first few
levels (say, 80 or 90 of them). If I'm playing an alt then I'm probably
already familiar with the system and trying to bring that character up
to speed would no doubt seem damn boring. Frankly if someone knows what
they're doing I don't think they really need
to raise their alt to demigod (and in a hurry please, because we want
to raid Ethereal Serenwilde on Saturday morning while everyone is
sleeping) because once someone hits about level 50 (which really doesn't
take much time or dedication) and has the credits to trans their guild
skills they'll be fairly damn effective. I bet @Silvanus could roll a 0
Level Peasant (my favourite class of all time) and he would still kick
my butt using nothing but NOSEPICK and WHINE. No matter how many times a
character of that calibre dies, the player never loses a single bit of Xp.
Ok,
so maybe we're not talking about the elite PvP squad trying to raise
some alts. Maybe we're talking about a player who is big into RP and
wants to explore different aspects of the world and people (different
guilds, different settlements, different community values, etc.). I
guess that's fair enough, but I just fail to see how levels play into
that. Sure, someone could really want to play a veteran warrior, but by
rolling an alt they automatically agreed to play a raw recruit for the
time being and they knew it. I guess I wouldn't want to have my vision
for that character put on the back-burner, so maybe grinding my way to
the top would seem tedious, but I just don't think that's really an
issue here either. Maybe I'm wrong, but most guilds determine rank by
prescribed, tangible actions within the guild (books, orations, etc.)
and not for racking up the XP ranks. It doesn't take long to level up
above 70, which seems fairly ``veteran'' to me. This does beg the
question, though, how can someone be a ``grizzled, salty, old veteran''
and aged 29 years? That seems more like a wunderkind to me, which pretty
much fits the bill because, again, a character can rise up quite
swiftly if the player knows what they are doing.
I rather like
the pace of Lusternia. After a hard day of long-term, project-based
work, it feels nice to sweep up some commodities for a village or two,
or to see how quickly I can buff the demons on Nil. Can I beat my
personal best in time? After spending the day in my cube, I rather like
getting the chance to chat it up with some novices or the juniors of my
guild. At the office I have to train my interns on the technologies and
techniques we use, which is scheduled and structured and also hurried
because, well, shit man! I have work to do!
In Lusternia I can spend all day in a more free-form mode, answering
questions as they come up, and reacting to the reactions of the student,
and tailoring the messages to their capabilities or experiences. I
don't schedule 3 hours in the conference and put up a Ppt demonstration,
and walk them through actual projects. Instead we go for a walk about
Nil, and explore cultural values. If they need to leave, then we can
reconvene when they return. If something distracts them from the realms
then so be it; I won't have some asshole knocking on the door and
complaining that they have the room scheduled at 1430 and we need to
book it. I wouldn't need to be even one level higher than 50 for all of
this either.
I wouldn't even need to be above 31 to do a great
deal of exploring either. In fact, what held Delphas back from gaining
levels was not some ``terribly slow and required grind'', but it was
just so much fun to go walk about and explore! So many villages with so
many quests! So many other settlements (Presidio, Asylum, Nature
Preserve, etc, etc) also with so many quests! The markets of the cities
and communes! The aethershops! The highway way stations, the other
people milling about. The list just goes on without end. Nope, I
wouldn't need to be more than 31 to explore most all of the Basin, and
just exploring only enough to have merely dipped one's toe into those
waters can still take a long time. What if someone slays my character?
It's not like Xp is hard to find in Newton; it seems to grow on a
15-minute reset tree for those of 29th or 30th level.
I'm
really not trying to be obtuse. I honestly just don't
understand the problem statement. I don't see anything wrong with
things as they are, nor understand the difficulties presented. I guess
should apologize for contributing above (not everyone plays the way I
play, which is fine since not everyone plays your way either) if it is
considered off-topic, but for some of us the ``grind'' is actually a
pleasant experience because it presents an opportunity to make tangible
changes to the game (power put into a nexus stays in that nexus, for
example) which is within their capability. 99% of it is actually
beneficial to one's nation as well (Spire or Throne, anyone?). If
someone thinks both there is a grind, and it is far too grindy, I would
just suggest they do something useful with their time. Hunting out
the Toronada flats may be cute and all, but couldn't one get the same
or more experience from influencing Villagers (yes, I understand this is
presently a contentious point) or gathering some essence? If it serves a
purpose greater than ``to level'' (has become a verb in spanish!
Levalar, no joke), then it's hardly grinding.
No, I understand that. There is a substantial sentiment among the population that it's too easy to gain demigod these days. In fact, I would say that the majority of complaints about grinding have little to do with leveling up at all - especially not the low levels (1-80), which are rather easy to blow through. I don't necessarily think you're talking about the same thing.
Thanks for clearing that up, @Enyalida. Yes, we were on two different pages.
I don't think slowing things down would negatively impact my play, but I play Delphas with a different purpose. He thinks any action which doesn't advance Magnagora is a wasted action. Other people might have a big problem with that (maybe they'd like to demi as quickly as possible to join the Elder Game w/o having to play any other part), so your mileage may vary.
My take on the problem: Combat shouldn't revolve around grind-taxes and the economy is borked.
Without getting into much detail or opinion about how to better manage PvP in Lusternia, the first point is easiest to explain: Basically, if I've reached XP equilibrium and finished my xp grinding career, I will feel compelled to return to that set point if anything dips me below it. As you've pointed out, the only person who loses Demigod is the person who isn't paying attention. This is because players will take their essence value, divide it into a number of 'death units', and stop fighting when they run too low on units. Your essence basically comes a currency by which you valuate risky (often fun) behaviors.
Like RL monetary standards, the value of this currency is derived from the time it takes to generate them, basically the rarity. This means that when I die in enemy territory, I'm burning up 2 hours (let's say) of very boring time sitting on an aethership just being not-AFK while I focus on something else, all together boring time. If this time were more boring and tedious, the risk evaluation would change, and the currency would go up in value, it would take more of an effort per unit. If this task were more interesting and intrinsically valuable, the valuation would decrease.
So, basically - whether or not Foo-yn Bar-lach the Demiscendant returns to the battle field after being killed probably has something to do with the statement "I'm going to have to bash up all this essence, so I have a buffer, ugh.", or some derivative. The wages of fun are paid in grind, which is arguably a bad thing, I think it could be handled in ways that value active behaviors (like fighting/defending/raiding/taking risk) against other interesting active behaviors, and tackle the problem of discouraging wanton risk taking more directly and therefore more equivalently across tiers of player.
Second, more persuasive, and more relevant: the economy is borked. First, I want to re-establish that when people talk about the grind to compete, I don't think they are generally talking about leveling. Usually what they mean is transing more skills than you get from the climb to demigod+, and amassing the other bonuses associated with wealth, like artifacts and consistent access to consumables of all varieties, as well as quest bonuses that may become easier as a result of wealth bonuses.
In that respect, part of the game's appeal is that you are technically unbounded on the achievements you can reach without putting in any cash, if you work hard enough. With a very few exceptions, anything you can pay money for to get in the game, you could also work the the economy, win contests, or participate in some kind of grinding to purchase via the credit market and other conversion schemes. And indeed, players do make it this way: As @Portius revealed, if you have a particular set of skills and are lucky enough to land in a position that rewards them (or clever enough to manipulate things to reward your activities), you can bypass I got a lot of my skills sorted out by participating and placing in Great Hunts, and in sticking around through decades of IC salaries and reward systems. I kept playing Lusternia because my first Lusternian character entered the bardics on the first week of play and won, setting them up with a nice chunk of starter credits to play with!
However, gold at the highest tier swamps out the credit market (and economy in general) for everyone else, and is walled off behind a difficulty level that only those who already have wealth bonuses can tend to reach, It would take a very long length of time to grind out the credits required to purchase the lower tier of class-appropriate artifacts, and probably even longer to grind out the gold using a trade skill, even the traditionally 'lucrative ones, once you factor in the costs required to make those profits. It can still be very disheartening to look at the credit market and realize that you're looking at 1-2 credits for very long arduous stints grinding, if you're lucky.
Indeed, credit prices and the economy in general mean that it would take an inordinate amount of time for trade skills to pay for themselves (or any other skillset) in revenues. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation has a herbalist needing to sell something on the order of fourteen million herbs for the credit market to recoup the lesson cost of transing one skillset. If each one takes ~3 seconds to harvest, that's thousands of hours*! In this context, grinding to reach your goals just isn't a realistic option.
Heck, in her original post @Riluna mentions "People who played before me". I can guarantee you I didn't pay anything like what I'd have to pay now to get my +15 offensive dmp curio. Though only tangentially related to the discussion on grinding by the cost association, there are some things that have just gotten way more expensive (predictably) by their very nature. This is why I wince when even relativly mildly combat-related curios come out. Once the trading rush for that particular curio set is over, getting pieces for your set is relying on random chance drawing from an ever expanding pool of things you don't want.
Really, that's the problem statement: It just takes way too long doing uninteresting things to fully unlock some of the selling points of the game, which can throw off new players and bore old ones. Making the risk factor for doing interesting things be the threat of boredom isn't a good starting point for a game.
P.S.: As an aside, I'm not sure how tangible of a change any kind of grinding makes to the game world, or to an org on a personal scale. Even a really dedicated grinder is going to pale in comparison to the power contribution represented by holding a few aetherbubbles, domoths, and villages. I'd always upsell the results of the effort and praise it in a newbie (Reservedly), but once they flourish into useful power aides and notice the relatively meager contributions, I don't tend to sugar coat things. We could shut off all power revenues and coast for a long time indeed before anything bad happened, and I bet most of the other orgs could do the same.
*I'm assuming one of the lower-end herbs, clearly not the sort you can charge 30gp for because of the dangers involved. Those probably don't tend to be the bulk of sales though, and the point stands anyways. Lop a zero off 14 million and it's still 1 million.
I never confuse ``what players do'' with ``what players like to do'', so I see a lot of your points. Bear in mind some people actually enjoy doing ``grindy'' things, and yes, for others it's quite a chore. To build up an essence buffer just so I can participate in prolonged Domoth battles does take some effort, and that effort might be construed as ``teh grind''. Other people just love to mindlessly bash for hours and hours... like the professor in that Terra Nova post.
The root cause being the economy may be right on the mark, but even if not it may still be close enough to ring true. There are several things I'd like to see changed, but I'm also aware that designing and implementing an economy which avoids both runaway deflation and runaway inflation is incredibly difficult even w/o duplication bugs or hoarding. Lusternia seems to have gotten the primary ingredient correct (there are no Npc merchants for gold-only end-use items), the secondary ingredient correct (items decay), and the third ingredient correct (there are only so many tangibly useful things before we veer into intangible frufru), but the money and commodity supplies might need some tweaking (good luck doing that w/o causing a hatestorm on the fora). EVE seems to have managed it, but EVE seems to have broken all the rules too (not RP-enforced, plenty of safe-zones, root factions are Npc-controlled, no FoD, etc, etc). Since you seem numerate I'd love to hear more of your ideas, but I think that might be a different topic.
Thanks again for bringing me into the conversation, rather than leaving me as some raving nut on the fringe.
Please stay and contribute, if you would. My personal interest is more closely on the IG grind for credits, that is to say, any and all actions that replace your personal, physical currency you actually spend on this game. I do welcome anyone offering an opinion of the grind a meaningful way. It still indirectly helps.
I'm not truly of the opinion (yet) that anything about the grind does, in fact, need to change right now. That said, I do believe that with everything I see right now in Lusternia's current environment, it potentially could need to, and in a very big way. Everything about Lusternia's (indeed IRE's) business model suggests that this is a free to play game, specifically that anything you can possibly buy is achievable through IG action alone (the Grind). In theory, this is certainly true, and this game indeed has a lot of options available for us to gain the exact same credits we buy with our cold, hard cash.
My more ultimate question is right now, in the current conditions, are those options in fact enough by themselves to get everything you want out of Lusternia, in a realistic and meaningful way? This is naturally a very nebulous concept, and it's definitely proving difficult to pin down in an answerable way.
Because if the answer is no, we are losing a lot of people before they ever really set foot in the game, as the advertising can then easily seen as deceitful. I kind of feel that way about it, sometimes. The more this happens (and the bigger the grind or the cost to skip it becomes perceived as "necessary") the more Lusternia is depending its entire existence on those who already have their trinkets. That is not an inexhaustible supply, and that alone cannot support the company forever. It's enough to give me serious pause when thinking about my next credit purchase. Eventually no company, eventually no game, and I'm thus eventually getting absolutely nothing for that money (and Lusty asks for a lot, IMHO).
Now, that's not necessarily the case, and if the answer is that people can, in fact, choose not to pay to enjoy whatever portion of the game they desire, they're not being forced to pay to play (or perceive it that way) and there is absolutely no problem. So I would like to find out, but for that, we need real, concrete stuff I just don't have. All I've got so far is ideas.
Now that we've got a little more information, maybe it can be approached another way. Portius says that with options not universally available, it's possible to get something like an average rate of 10 credits an hour with focused effort, and the potential for regular, and often considerable windfalls.
If Portius is indeed on the high end of this spectrum, is it safe to assume most people can average four or five credits per hour of whatever their chosen grind may be? I'd like to measure a few things with this figure, so if you think it should be altered, please feel free to do so.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Fourish credits per hour would be a reasonable estimate for a person writing in the ideal situation of an Institute member writing 1000 word scholarly books. This ignores prestige and bardics. It also assumes they're capable of writing about arbitrary topics to keep up their productivity. This is a skill like any other in writing, but I'm not sure how common it is in Lusternia's playerbase.
@Ayisdra might be able to comment on the situation for Aeromancers for comparison, and @Kalnid might be able to give an example from a strong library other than Hallifax. I don't know what Mag's rewards are like at this point.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
For the Aeromancers, things you write can be given a point score.
Every five points gets you a guildfavour and credits equal to 5+GR. This
system is a bit of a double edge sword. At one end, it seems to favour
small books as those can quickly build points. But those who are writing for the rewards are probably not going to write sub 1000 words often, as it does stack with the city rewards. And if they do, because there is a bit of subjectiveness to the score, writing sub 1000 word pieces all the time is not going to work out in your favour if you are trying to get tons of credits/favours.
On other things:
It took me 7 RL years to get demigod (Ayisdra is my only character). In those 7 years, I have probably spend about 2000 dollars on the game. Part of the reason it took me so long is I was afraid of dying and losing xp of what I had just built up. This fear of dying is also something that keeps me from combat really (and also the fact I use mushclient and there isn't a good system for it. However, this is probably a minor point with the overhaul coming). Being in Hallifax now, I can get credits much easier with their rewards systems than I did in Glomdoring (although this has changed now.). If I can spend about two hours writing 1K words and getting 5 credits, I'm more likely to do that. If writing gave xp, I would love it. But it doesn't, so I have to hunt. I do very minor hunting as it is. The most I do is when astralhunts are done and perhaps clearly out Air. Part of the problem I have is two things. First is I don't know where the good, solo, hunting places are at. Second, and more important, is I don't know how to hunt effectively. I don't know how to stack the tons of buffs for h/m/e and dmp that makes hunting easier (as an lucidian aeromancer).
I was thinking that introducing starter artifact packages, perhaps with a limit of one per person, would give new players a chance to make a small monetary commitment and get something to take the initial edge of. I personally really feel that small early commitments not only should generate a nice bit of income for IRE because they will be easily considered, but they also could lead to more novice retention. Considering the overhaul, I'd think a single artifact pipe, a vial rune (or maybe a single goop vial?) would be a nice start. Not sure what else could go with that. Maybe a pair of lips?
I know, this won't do any good to the non-paying players, but again I don't think we should hold to any illusions of that ever being a feasible route.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order. Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
One of the games I work on relies on a thousand players who play for free, to make it an enticing game to get the 100 players who pay to stay. That requires the game being viable for the thousand of free players, even while we give perks as bonuses to those who pay.
I think Lusternia could easily do that, if they make sure that not only do things stop stacking at a certain point (like they plan on doing) but that artifacts are included in that max buff. Meaning if I buy a health rune, and that counts as 3 stacks, then I can only get 2 more stacking health bonuses from grind/skill/resources based bonuses.
I think Lusternia could easily do that, if they make sure that not only do things stop stacking at a certain point (like they plan on doing) but that artifacts are included in that max buff. Meaning if I buy a health rune, and that counts as 3 stacks, then I can only get 2 more stacking health bonuses from grind/skill/resources based bonuses.
From past answers on the forums, I believe balancing is always done around maximized scenarios. Meaning that someone with all buffs plus all artifacts will find themselves at the cap. It will just remain to be seen how high that ceiling is placed. Put it too high and people will feel it is required to have certain artifacts. But put it too low and artifacts may be deemed not worth it because you can get there with buffs alone. It's tricky indeed.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order. Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
This feels relevant to this discussion. Not only is the grind a barrier to the fun stuff, the complexity is a barrier to the fun stuff, particularly since finding in-game files describing what stuff even does is hard. Case in point, if anyone can point me to a help file detailing what watches actually do, I'd love to see it.
This feels relevant to this discussion. Not only is the grind a barrier to the fun stuff, the complexity is a barrier to the fun stuff, particularly since finding in-game files describing what stuff even does is hard. Case in point, if anyone can point me to a help file detailing what watches actually do, I'd love to see it.
AB ARTISAN TIMEPIECES
Much like many crafted items, the details are in the skill file. And to know what it's enchantable with, ask your local tinker!
This feels relevant to this discussion. Not only is the grind a barrier to the fun stuff, the complexity is a barrier to the fun stuff, particularly since finding in-game files describing what stuff even does is hard. Case in point, if anyone can point me to a help file detailing what watches actually do, I'd love to see it.
AB ARTISAN TIMEPIECES
Much like many crafted items, the details are in the skill file. And to know what it's enchantable with, ask your local tinker!
This feels relevant to this discussion. Not only is the grind a barrier to the fun stuff, the complexity is a barrier to the fun stuff, particularly since finding in-game files describing what stuff even does is hard. Case in point, if anyone can point me to a help file detailing what watches actually do, I'd love to see it.
AB ARTISAN TIMEPIECES
Much like many crafted items, the details are in the skill file. And to know what it's enchantable with, ask your local tinker!
Here's the point though: can't see AB ARTISAN cause not an artisan, and asking a tinker requires that you even know that's what tinkers do. I feel like you might be missing my point. There is a list of all the cures you need. Why isn't there a similar list of all the enchantments, misc buffs, and other things that people use on a regular basis and make life/combat/bashing a little easier?
I don't think it's necessarily a bad thing for people to discover some things through IC interaction, though help files are awesome. I presume the wiki was begun for this reason though, if only it hadn't fallen by the wayside. But then the argument exists that we shouldn't need an external site to host game info, which I agree with. I'm not arguing for or against, just saying it's not one of those things that has no explanation anywhere. EXALT AURA and EXALT WRATH have no IC explanation anywhere explaining what they actually do that I can find, just the syntaxes. I find that worse than having to ask a tradesperson what they do.
I've run into a couple of obstacles for the numbers I'm trying to crunch.
The big one is curios. First are the curios that you can quest for even purchasable with credits? If not, I can ignore those. Secondly, I honestly have no experience with curios at all, as my personal interest in them is zero, so I would like some input about how many crates you even need to buy on average to get an individual curio you want. I do realize it's widely random, and can thus vary significantly, so a rough, ballpark figure would be totally fine.
Next, I'm trying to figure out a middling gold rate, as in one that's attainable by more than just the top-tier bashers or influencers. For me, if I'm lucky enough to hit areas that have been left alone for a while, and as demi with all my buffs, I can sometimes do 100k/hour with focused effort. There is no way I can maintain that amount though. 60k-70k is more typical for me on a good day (and I do consider myself a "middle-tier" basher). Does anyone think that should be a higher or lower figure?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
I've run into a couple of obstacles for the numbers I'm trying to crunch.
The big one is curios. First are the curios that you can quest for even purchasable with credits? If not, I can ignore those. Secondly, I honestly have no experience with curios at all, as my personal interest in them is zero, so I would like some input about how many crates you even need to buy on average to get an individual curio you want. I do realize it's widely random, and can thus vary significantly, so a rough, ballpark figure would be totally fine.
Next, I'm trying to figure out a middling gold rate, as in one that's attainable by more than just the top-tier bashers or influencers. For me, if I'm lucky enough to hit areas that have been left alone for a while, and as demi with all my buffs, I can sometimes do 100k/hour with focused effort. There is no way I can maintain that amount though. 60k-70k is more typical for me on a good day (and I do consider myself a "middle-tier" basher). Does anyone think that should be a higher or lower figure?
It takes 10 curio pieces to build a curio. There are tons of curios. If you buy a crate of 100 curios you are unlikley to get any full set, though you might get close to finishing a set. You then have to trade for what you want. The point is the trading, so you need enough curios to have what other people might want. Not something I think you can calculate, but I think its fair to say that 1 100 curio crate, will likely get you 3 curios if you are persistant, and 10 curios if you are really lucky and an expert tradesperson.
I play casually, I get happy if I make 30K gold in a 2 hour session. I only do influencing.
I've run into a couple of obstacles for the numbers I'm trying to crunch.
The big one is curios. First are the curios that you can quest for even purchasable with credits? If not, I can ignore those. Secondly, I honestly have no experience with curios at all, as my personal interest in them is zero, so I would like some input about how many crates you even need to buy on average to get an individual curio you want. I do realize it's widely random, and can thus vary significantly, so a rough, ballpark figure would be totally fine.
Next, I'm trying to figure out a middling gold rate, as in one that's attainable by more than just the top-tier bashers or influencers. For me, if I'm lucky enough to hit areas that have been left alone for a while, and as demi with all my buffs, I can sometimes do 100k/hour with focused effort. There is no way I can maintain that amount though. 60k-70k is more typical for me on a good day (and I do consider myself a "middle-tier" basher). Does anyone think that should be a higher or lower figure?
It takes 10 curio pieces to build a curio. There are tons of curios. If you buy a crate of 100 curios you are unlikley to get any full set, though you might get close to finishing a set. You then have to trade for what you want. The point is the trading, so you need enough curios to have what other people might want. Not something I think you can calculate, but I think its fair to say that 1 100 curio crate, will likely get you 3 curios if you are persistant, and 10 curios if you are really lucky and an expert tradesperson.
I play casually, I get happy if I make 30K gold in a 2 hour session. I only do influencing.
If you're talking about czigny curios I think your numbers are overly optimistic even if you give a many month time frame.
Part of the problem is too many curios (meaning ridiculous odds of puling any single czigny).
Curio trading is a huge pain in the ass.
Many curios traders are overly selfish. The other day after trading several curio bits with someone, they then refused to trade a single non-special curio bit for one of equal value since it wasn't on their list.
Too many people just rub curios, lowering the total number of curios in the game.
@Steingrim If those numbers are optimistic, would you say you're consistently able to assemble even one full curio from a 100 piece crate? Or not even that?
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
It depends on how many other people are trading that particular set. If you are depending mostly on your own purchases (as you will probably be, for some of the older sets), 100 is not close to enough to complete a curio.
Most of the people who want a damage enhancement curio will already be done trading for them, and are unlikely to have many, if any, pieces remaining from those sets. When they came out, every other person had a glut of pieces, and those who had some they no longer wanted could simple transfer them to you for free. People were by and large trading freely for equivalent pieces, secure in the knowledge that the ones they actually needed were in plentiful supply. Now, there might be a small handful of people actively trading those pieces, making it harder to get the ones you need. This is a predictable outcome of the stable player base becoming saturated with the things, newer players (or players new to the curio game) arrived late for the party.
Curios make it easier for certain niche set ups. Genies are just generally good for the health buffs, whereas if you're something like a shadowdancer, getting curios to buff your cold/poison dmp might be easier than getting tattoos - or you could get both, though there are diminishing returns. That said, getting curios now is more of a logistical impossibility than a grindfest. It would be nice if you could buy curio packs of specific collections, make all curio packages generic, and when you unwrap them, you have to specify a collection or set or something, and then it generates curios from what you specified only. That would be better than the ~1/1000 chance you have of getting what you want with our current curio count.
In theory, you could grind out a lot of quest curios and rub them for the chance of getting pieces of the set you want (or for trading with someone who has them), but it is indeed a prohibitvly difficult way to get curios.
Even with diminishing returns, +15dmp to a single-typed attack still represents a bonus on par with a 400 credit artifact. You're looking at a 10% permanent (no upkeep) damage increase for someone regularly outfitted with kirigami and possessing a damage tattoo to the same type. It's only ~8% on someone who regularly upkeeps the war blessing, which would probably float something like a 300 credit value. The real complaint about curios isn't necessarily how strong the buffs are, but that they are buffs that were very easy to get if you were around when they debuted (I didn't pay anything like 300 credits for mine, perhaps even when totaling them all up), and far more expensive/difficult to complete now.
Ugh. I think I might mark down the curio grind as "eternal". That really does sound exceedingly grindy even if you are paying for them. If you want to do it entirely IG.... it sounds like you'll be at it forever. And hey, if you truly don't need that one anyway, I'll drop it.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
I agree they are definitely a bonus that helps out, and without them, you may have issues damaging out tankier people/classes but in order to really excel?
I'm not talking top tier, I'm talking hold your own in middle tier. Do you need curios to participate at a decent level in combat? I don't know that you do.
The curio sets sold in the artifact shop should still be completable with trading and patience (I'd plan for a few months, starting from a 100 pack).
Rubbing is improved in that pieces have a bigger chance of staying in the same type than they used to.
I only rub duplicates so have some pieces to trade. Check adverts and yell on market once you're down to needing a few.
The more popular ones like the 10 fire dmp will be harder. Genie bottles will be incredibly hard as they were pretty much cash only so limited supply and most people rubbed in the hope of completing their sets.
Comments
http://terranova.blogs.com/terra_nova/2006/08/in_praise_of_th.html
Losses through misfortune do happen, true. I can't count the number of times Delphas was slain by one mob or another, but even at the higher levels (90+) I never lost more than a few minutes of work. Heck! I'm more peeved about any essence I was carrying or if a mob ran off with one of my possessions than I'm mad about the Xp loss. Delphas even fell backwards from 83 to 79 on purpose once (necessary for a pilgrimage of his own conception), and let me tell you that actually took effort! It takes long time to lose that much Xp. It wasn't the sort of thing that can happen because the phone rang, or the bacon was burning, or the laundry needed sorting; a person really has to work to lose that much Xp. The punishment? I think I gained it all back in almost no time, and I'm a part-time player.
I can understand that many would prefer to simply skip the first few levels (say, 80 or 90 of them). If I'm playing an alt then I'm probably already familiar with the system and trying to bring that character up to speed would no doubt seem damn boring. Frankly if someone knows what they're doing I don't think they really need to raise their alt to demigod (and in a hurry please, because we want to raid Ethereal Serenwilde on Saturday morning while everyone is sleeping) because once someone hits about level 50 (which really doesn't take much time or dedication) and has the credits to trans their guild skills they'll be fairly damn effective. I bet @Silvanus could roll a 0 Level Peasant (my favourite class of all time) and he would still kick my butt using nothing but NOSEPICK and WHINE. No matter how many times a character of that calibre dies, the player never loses a single bit of Xp.
Ok, so maybe we're not talking about the elite PvP squad trying to raise some alts. Maybe we're talking about a player who is big into RP and wants to explore different aspects of the world and people (different guilds, different settlements, different community values, etc.). I guess that's fair enough, but I just fail to see how levels play into that. Sure, someone could really want to play a veteran warrior, but by rolling an alt they automatically agreed to play a raw recruit for the time being and they knew it. I guess I wouldn't want to have my vision for that character put on the back-burner, so maybe grinding my way to the top would seem tedious, but I just don't think that's really an issue here either. Maybe I'm wrong, but most guilds determine rank by prescribed, tangible actions within the guild (books, orations, etc.) and not for racking up the XP ranks. It doesn't take long to level up above 70, which seems fairly ``veteran'' to me. This does beg the question, though, how can someone be a ``grizzled, salty, old veteran'' and aged 29 years? That seems more like a wunderkind to me, which pretty much fits the bill because, again, a character can rise up quite swiftly if the player knows what they are doing.
I rather like the pace of Lusternia. After a hard day of long-term, project-based work, it feels nice to sweep up some commodities for a village or two, or to see how quickly I can buff the demons on Nil. Can I beat my personal best in time? After spending the day in my cube, I rather like getting the chance to chat it up with some novices or the juniors of my guild. At the office I have to train my interns on the technologies and techniques we use, which is scheduled and structured and also hurried because, well, shit man! I have work to do! In Lusternia I can spend all day in a more free-form mode, answering questions as they come up, and reacting to the reactions of the student, and tailoring the messages to their capabilities or experiences. I don't schedule 3 hours in the conference and put up a Ppt demonstration, and walk them through actual projects. Instead we go for a walk about Nil, and explore cultural values. If they need to leave, then we can reconvene when they return. If something distracts them from the realms then so be it; I won't have some asshole knocking on the door and complaining that they have the room scheduled at 1430 and we need to book it. I wouldn't need to be even one level higher than 50 for all of this either.
I wouldn't even need to be above 31 to do a great deal of exploring either. In fact, what held Delphas back from gaining levels was not some ``terribly slow and required grind'', but it was just so much fun to go walk about and explore! So many villages with so many quests! So many other settlements (Presidio, Asylum, Nature Preserve, etc, etc) also with so many quests! The markets of the cities and communes! The aethershops! The highway way stations, the other people milling about. The list just goes on without end. Nope, I wouldn't need to be more than 31 to explore most all of the Basin, and just exploring only enough to have merely dipped one's toe into those waters can still take a long time. What if someone slays my character? It's not like Xp is hard to find in Newton; it seems to grow on a 15-minute reset tree for those of 29th or 30th level.
I'm really not trying to be obtuse. I honestly just don't understand the problem statement. I don't see anything wrong with things as they are, nor understand the difficulties presented. I guess should apologize for contributing above (not everyone plays the way I play, which is fine since not everyone plays your way either) if it is considered off-topic, but for some of us the ``grind'' is actually a pleasant experience because it presents an opportunity to make tangible changes to the game (power put into a nexus stays in that nexus, for example) which is within their capability. 99% of it is actually beneficial to one's nation as well (Spire or Throne, anyone?). If someone thinks both there is a grind, and it is far too grindy, I would just suggest they do something useful with their time. Hunting out the Toronada flats may be cute and all, but couldn't one get the same or more experience from influencing Villagers (yes, I understand this is presently a contentious point) or gathering some essence? If it serves a purpose greater than ``to level'' (has become a verb in spanish! Levalar, no joke), then it's hardly grinding.
I don't think slowing things down would negatively impact my play, but I play Delphas with a different purpose. He thinks any action which doesn't advance Magnagora is a wasted action. Other people might have a big problem with that (maybe they'd like to demi as quickly as possible to join the Elder Game w/o having to play any other part), so your mileage may vary.
Without getting into much detail or opinion about how to better manage PvP in Lusternia, the first point is easiest to explain: Basically, if I've reached XP equilibrium and finished my xp grinding career, I will feel compelled to return to that set point if anything dips me below it. As you've pointed out, the only person who loses Demigod is the person who isn't paying attention. This is because players will take their essence value, divide it into a number of 'death units', and stop fighting when they run too low on units. Your essence basically comes a currency by which you valuate risky (often fun) behaviors.
Second, more persuasive, and more relevant: the economy is borked. First, I want to re-establish that when people talk about the grind to compete, I don't think they are generally talking about leveling. Usually what they mean is transing more skills than you get from the climb to demigod+, and amassing the other bonuses associated with wealth, like artifacts and consistent access to consumables of all varieties, as well as quest bonuses that may become easier as a result of wealth bonuses.
Indeed, credit prices and the economy in general mean that it would take an inordinate amount of time for trade skills to pay for themselves (or any other skillset) in revenues. A quick back-of-the-envelope calculation has a herbalist needing to sell something on the order of fourteen million herbs for the credit market to recoup the lesson cost of transing one skillset. If each one takes ~3 seconds to harvest, that's thousands of hours*! In this context, grinding to reach your goals just isn't a realistic option.
Heck, in her original post @Riluna mentions "People who played before me". I can guarantee you I didn't pay anything like what I'd have to pay now to get my +15 offensive dmp curio. Though only tangentially related to the discussion on grinding by the cost association, there are some things that have just gotten way more expensive (predictably) by their very nature. This is why I wince when even relativly mildly combat-related curios come out. Once the trading rush for that particular curio set is over, getting pieces for your set is relying on random chance drawing from an ever expanding pool of things you don't want.
Really, that's the problem statement: It just takes way too long doing uninteresting things to fully unlock some of the selling points of the game, which can throw off new players and bore old ones. Making the risk factor for doing interesting things be the threat of boredom isn't a good starting point for a game.
P.S.:
As an aside, I'm not sure how tangible of a change any kind of grinding makes to the game world, or to an org on a personal scale. Even a really dedicated grinder is going to pale in comparison to the power contribution represented by holding a few aetherbubbles, domoths, and villages. I'd always upsell the results of the effort and praise it in a newbie (Reservedly), but once they flourish into useful power aides and notice the relatively meager contributions, I don't tend to sugar coat things. We could shut off all power revenues and coast for a long time indeed before anything bad happened, and I bet most of the other orgs could do the same.
The root cause being the economy may be right on the mark, but even if not it may still be close enough to ring true. There are several things I'd like to see changed, but I'm also aware that designing and implementing an economy which avoids both runaway deflation and runaway inflation is incredibly difficult even w/o duplication bugs or hoarding. Lusternia seems to have gotten the primary ingredient correct (there are no Npc merchants for gold-only end-use items), the secondary ingredient correct (items decay), and the third ingredient correct (there are only so many tangibly useful things before we veer into intangible frufru), but the money and commodity supplies might need some tweaking (good luck doing that w/o causing a hatestorm on the fora). EVE seems to have managed it, but EVE seems to have broken all the rules too (not RP-enforced, plenty of safe-zones, root factions are Npc-controlled, no FoD, etc, etc). Since you seem numerate I'd love to hear more of your ideas, but I think that might be a different topic.
Thanks again for bringing me into the conversation, rather than leaving me as some raving nut on the fringe.
@Ayisdra might be able to comment on the situation for Aeromancers for comparison, and @Kalnid might be able to give an example from a strong library other than Hallifax. I don't know what Mag's rewards are like at this point.
For the Aeromancers, things you write can be given a point score. Every five points gets you a guildfavour and credits equal to 5+GR. This system is a bit of a double edge sword. At one end, it seems to favour small books as those can quickly build points. But those who are writing for the rewards are probably not going to write sub 1000 words often, as it does stack with the city rewards. And if they do, because there is a bit of subjectiveness to the score, writing sub 1000 word pieces all the time is not going to work out in your favour if you are trying to get tons of credits/favours.
On other things:
It took me 7 RL years to get demigod (Ayisdra is my only character). In those 7 years, I have probably spend about 2000 dollars on the game. Part of the reason it took me so long is I was afraid of dying and losing xp of what I had just built up. This fear of dying is also something that keeps me from combat really (and also the fact I use mushclient and there isn't a good system for it. However, this is probably a minor point with the overhaul coming). Being in Hallifax now, I can get credits much easier with their rewards systems than I did in Glomdoring (although this has changed now.). If I can spend about two hours writing 1K words and getting 5 credits, I'm more likely to do that. If writing gave xp, I would love it. But it doesn't, so I have to hunt. I do very minor hunting as it is. The most I do is when astralhunts are done and perhaps clearly out Air. Part of the problem I have is two things. First is I don't know where the good, solo, hunting places are at. Second, and more important, is I don't know how to hunt effectively. I don't know how to stack the tons of buffs for h/m/e and dmp that makes hunting easier (as an lucidian aeromancer).
I know, this won't do any good to the non-paying players, but again I don't think we should hold to any illusions of that ever being a feasible route.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order.
Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
That requires the game being viable for the thousand of free players, even while we give perks as bonuses to those who pay.
You have received a new honour! Congratulations! On this day, you have shown your willingness to ensure a bug-free Lusternia for everyone to enjoy. The face of Iosai the Anomaly unfolds before you, and within you grows the knowledge that you have earned the elusive and rare honour of membership in Her Order.
Curio Exchange - A website to help with the trading of curio pieces in Lusternia.
AB ARTISAN TIMEPIECES
Much like many crafted items, the details are in the skill file. And to know what it's enchantable with, ask your local tinker!
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Part of the problem is too many curios (meaning ridiculous odds of puling any single czigny).
Curio trading is a huge pain in the ass.
Many curios traders are overly selfish. The other day after trading several curio bits with someone, they then refused to trade a single non-special curio bit for one of equal value since it wasn't on their list.
Too many people just rub curios, lowering the total number of curios in the game.
Rubbing is improved in that pieces have a bigger chance of staying in the same type than they used to.
I only rub duplicates so have some pieces to trade. Check adverts and yell on market once you're down to needing a few.
The more popular ones like the 10 fire dmp will be harder. Genie bottles will be incredibly hard as they were pretty much cash only so limited supply and most people rubbed in the hope of completing their sets.