What makes lore 'good' for an organisation, guild, deity, or skill?

Selenity · January 2015

I figured this is actually worthy of a discussion instead of a question with a correct/incorrect 'answer'. What do you guys think makes the mark, or doesn't? Is it the specificity of lore, or the generalness? Examples of good lore, or of bad lore?

Portius · January 2015

Three important points now, and possibly fiddlier things later when I have more time. Examples are taken from Hallifax because that's where I spend most of my Lusterniaing. A thing to keep in mind with Hallifax is that most of the time city RP is going to be more important the guild RP to a greater extent than other orgs. That comes with the nature of Hallifax as an org.

You need thematic unity. All the little details of the guild should feed into a coherent core theme. If you have a huge set of disparate features without that unity, you end up with people, either alone or in small groups, playing with a vastly different sent of expectations for the org. When these clash, annoyance happens. This isn't the same thing as a lack of variety (see the two Hallifax model, for example) but rather a requirement to have a unifying link between all the different pieces of an org. A little unintuitively, this is really useful if you want one or two details that really clash with the theme. Based on the things people have experienced with an org, they'll have expectations for the parts that they haven't seen yet, especially if the org falls into a clear archetype. Things that clash with those expectations will be noteworthy and emphasized, simply because clashing makes them stick out. This is an important thing to keep in mind for more or less every kind of setting building and writing.

The details of the org have to be represented in game. If you can't actually do the thing your org is supposed to do, you have a big problem. I had a brief conversation with @Ushaara about the Sentinels having this problem the other day. They're supposed to be the time cops with authority over all sorts of time-based lab accidents that Institute people are prone to having. The problem is, this almost never comes up. You have very occasional events, but those have all the problems with low interactivity that scripted events always have. You can try to resolve it without mechanical support, but that's difficult and often kind of unfulfilling. Lusternia is a mechanical game, not just a chat room. Lore needs to be integrated into those mechanics. Compare the Sentinels to the Institute, who also have the time RP going on. We don't have the same problem with being able to play with that, because our thing is research. This gets mechanical support through the library, so we can really play it up if we want to (not that most of us do. The science people seem mostly to go for harmonics and biology type things.) in a way that the Sentinels simply cannot. You can't RP around fixing emergencies without emergencies to fix.

The last thing I want to hit is accessability. This is a concession to Lusternia's playability as a game. People need to be able to understand an org's lore in broad strokes easily, to help them get into it and stick around long enough to get a handle on the depth. Depth is good, of course, but it's useless if people never get to it. Take the Institute as an example. We're the communist Royal Society. Get some enlightenment style gentlemen of science RP, mix it up with a hint of Soviet super science morality, you're good to go. Favor one over the other depending on where you fall on the hard/soft Hallifax spectrum, which will tend to develop fairly organically over time. At a deeper level, you start getting a handle on other people's science and building on that, you get some idea of the historical projects and aspects of the Institute, and you naturally feed into high class Hallifaxian RP.

Aerotan · January 2015

I've always felt that good 'lore' for a guild or skill ties it back to the overall themes and ideals of the org without obscuring its original intent. A good example of this was when the Nekotai were focused on the lesser great spirits already a large part of the Glomdoring, Bat, Wasp, Spider, and Beetle and added Scorpion to that mix. As I recall, it got taken a little farther than the admin liked, but the lore and roleplay of the guild was amazing. (plus I added a minor component to their rituals accidentally once by doing KA KAIFE AIR during one at an appropriate moment >.>)

It was 'good lore' because it gave the Nekotai a sense of their own identity apart from the other guilds in Glomdoring while keeping it a part of the Glomdoring.

Ventidius · January 2015

Unnecessary details and trivia, along with long histories and lists of information. The more research done, and the more effort put into it, the more it is good lore. In the Geomancers, there is a text often spoken of in awed whispers on which everyone agrees is top quality official literature (Written by Morvior Aiakon, probably as old as beta).

The Libellus Geomancie.

It's reputation has reached even outside the guild. That is how you write good lore. One example? In the book, there is a ritual for expelling water from the body, as water is pure and vile to us, but mortals need it to survive (Involves blood). There is even a specific ritual you must do BEFORE you call your staff, acted out with emotes, and a lot of background detail.

This isn't even mentioning the stuff i managed to wring out of Geochemantics.

A good test of thumb is to find out if your guild has a 'bible', and if it doesn't, consider writing one.

Lerad · January 2015

Aerotan said:

(plus I added a minor component to their rituals accidentally once by doing KA KAIFE AIR during one at an appropriate moment >.>)

So that was you, huh?

Svana · January 2015

Needs cohesion

Needs to not conflict with established lore

Needs to 'make sense' (this is a broad thing). An example of something that wouldn't make sense on the greater scale would be Illuminati opposed to using Divine Flesh for transformations.

Aerotan · January 2015

Lerad said:

Aerotan said:

(plus I added a minor component to their rituals accidentally once by doing KA KAIFE AIR during one at an appropriate moment >.>)

So that was you, huh?

As Tyrni, yep. Also designed the spirit-themed earrings in the Ebonclaw cartel (which was originally his), plus the spider one which isn't in Ebonclaw.

Shaddus · January 2015

My number one rule: Good lore starts out simple and draws you in before it starts to get complex. If you can't sum up an org's lore in a sentence or two to outsiders, they may not be interested in joining you.

Lavinya · January 2015

I think good lore has its black and white, and also its grey areas that are open to interpretation.

Morgfyre tenets are great for it - you have the basic hunger, inspiration and change, which are simple in themselves, but then lead to consumption, chaos and destruction. There are the basic, black and white this is what the belief is, and also the deeper tenets that don't contradict with the basics but allow for theorising and debate about just what they mean and how they should be applied.

Demon Lords is another great example - they have their obvious ways/beliefs, but at the same time there is so much greater depth that you can have vastly different characters serving the same purpose but having very different reasons and methods. Each guild can relate to the DLs and be part of the greater whole that is Magnagoran culture and still be completely unique by how they view that link and what meaning they attribute to it.

If everything is black and white it is boring (in my opinion) because I enjoy the debate and theology. If everything is grey, then you have no structure or core to anchor everything else. It helps everyone when admin make clear black and white barriers ie Ashtorath is a raging rager who rages. That is not up for debate. But then there is hatred in there too, and haste. Are they things we should inherently mimic, or an example of character flaws?

I may be rambling, but it's why I love Magnagoran law - there is so much that intertwines and even after all these years there is so much that can be argued about, but there is still that solid foundation.

Riluna · January 2015

I think it's important to distinguish between "lore" and "canon". A lot of people seem to be terrified of coming up with lore, for the fear of it being cast aside by official canon someday. But just because something is lore doesn't make it correct! It just means you were teaching something not historically accurate, and that's okay too! Lots and lots of factions do this IRL and IG.

I think the important thing is starting simple, with nothing more than a thesis statement. This can be as vague or as specific as whatever guild ethos you're trying to push. When you have found a good one, the lore sort of comes to life on its own... it's not really about you shaping it anymore, but other people/followers will pick up a good idea and run with it.

Sometimes that matches IG canon, sometimes it doesn't. A couple of times, I believe a few guilds have actually changed canon (or at least altered its perceived course in the Vision).

AFAIK, our "Winter Court" stuff in Seren was one such thing. The admin always seemed ambivalent about it, at very best (outside of our wonderful ephemerals). But it was fun. It made sense for us, and we all ran with it. Now it's apparently enough of Seren lore that it's an enduring thing, even if we're all canonically wrong.

Aerotan · January 2015

Riluna said:

Sometimes that matches IG canon, sometimes it doesn't. A couple of times, I believe a few guilds have actually changed canon (or at least altered its perceived course in the Vision).

AFAIK, our "Winter Court" stuff in Seren was one such thing. The admin always seemed ambivalent about it, at very best (outside of our wonderful ephemerals). But it was fun. It made sense for us, and we all ran with it. Now it's apparently enough of Seren lore that it's an enduring thing, even if we're all canonically wrong.

I seem to recall Cacophany got one of these as well. I know in Glom, if it goes pear-shaped you can just cry FALSE MEMORY and it's no harm done either way, and Mag (from what I know of it) is very much a culture of 'Forget the past, embrace the future!'

Drocilla · January 2015

Ventidius said:

(Written by Morvior, probably as old as beta).

The Libellus Geomancie.

*coughdoublecheckcough*

To me, both kinds of lore, specific and general, are a beautiful and inspiring thing. It really depends on its purpose, too. As @Lavinya mentioned above, a lot of Magnagora is, in theory, very strictly laid out but the possibilities for interpretation and personal touches are endless. Some of the best lore I've seen started out with a vague outline and was transformed by each successive generation of players and admin into something, while resembling the original concept, much beyond anyone's initial hopes and dreams. A lot of Magnagora has gone through that too.

As for what makes the cut? Typically things that pass the logic test and fit into the big picture smoothly, enriching it in a variety of ways.

Everiine · January 2015

Echoing Shaddus and Riluna:

Start small and simple. Speaking only from my experience, when I first started playing, the Serenguard did already have the Warrior Spirits, but they were just a little side thing. You did some vision quests and that was it--there wasn't any particular lore or story attached to them, or even teachings. Gwylifar had just come up with Jaguar, Eagle, and Wolverine, and two tribal-looking rituals. Over time, that concept was expanded: we gave them epithets, and teachings, expanded the rituals, started incorporating them into other rituals; but always piece by piece. Add a little here. Add a little there. Now, the Warrior Spirits are one of the central lore points of the Serenguard.

Similarily, it seemed early on that there was a sort of "tribal" feel to the Serenguard: Great Chieftain, High Chief, etc. So, we thought, "What do tribes do, and what do they look like?" and slowly adapted things to bring that vision forward.

The Winter Court was even more ambiguous. There was a group called the Summer Court that had to do with Glomdoring, so we extrapolated and said, "Well, if Glomdoring = South = Summer, than Serenwilde = North = Winter". All we figured, with a little admin help, was that the Winter Court was the name for the Serenwilde representation in the Courts of the Fae Queen. It hasn't really grown much since then, except for an emphasis on the season of winter, but it's fun nonetheless.

Start small, start simple, build from there, and try to be coherent.

Delphas · January 2015

I'm going to address the original question, so that means I'm answering mostly on WHAT. I'll include plenty of WHY, and try to cover some of the HOW at the end.

Lore is all about community. Communities are groups of people who:
1) Share a means to communicate
2) Have some reason to communicate with each other
3) Share a common cultural context
4) Decide their own level of commitment/involvement

The first, a means of communication is pretty much automatic. Just simply connecting communicates something. Ok, maybe not anything great. IRE could very well have just left it at SHOUT, but they added YELL and CT and GT and a host of other channels. This is all very good, but that doesn't quite get us very far.

The second, a reason for communicating is getting us somewhere. If Joe Nihilist has questions about Necromancy then he can ask via GT just as Jane Paladin can ask questions about the sea battle via CT. Hrmm, nope! We're still not where we need to be, because while all of this technical question-answer is very good, it does nothing in-context. System mechanics could easily be resolved by some global channel similar to NEWBIE (and most of these would be on-topic even in existing NEWBIE). This is all well and fine, but it is nothing more than the foundations for the palace we really want. Sure I can subsist in the basement while the palace is being constructed, but I want to live in the palace.

Lore enters the stage at tier #3, so let's elaborate on that point for a moment. Cultural context implies members:
1) Have a shared history
2) Have a shared pool of knowledge
3) Have a shared jargon
4) Have a shared vision for the future
5) Have incentives for working together towards common objectives

The shared history is important too, and can equally apply to specific skills or the entire faction. When did this thing originate? Answering that is not good enough, as history is more than dates. You need to describe the political climate, or the social impetus, or the governing philosophy of the day, etc. You need to write the mythical Issue #0: the origin story. Did Prince Baalphegar just wake up immediately after the Transformation and reveal Demon Web, or did some event precipitate the need for its revelation? Trivially it's in there because IRE needed a fighting skill at (or about) that skill-rank. Don't be trivial.

The shared pool of knowledge is automatically the guild-skills, but that's trivial. We're not talking about the skills themselves, which are systems-level and therefore a mostly an out-of-context thing. What we're looking for are the in-context explanations. Is there a ritual to give thanks to Nifilhema for revealing the Dark Cosmic Secret of Torture? Could any Demon Lord other than Luciphage be responsible for the Dark Cosmic Secret of Scourge? How exactly does the kata manipulate the chi for nerve pinch to work? What is the exact mechanism behind tattoos-as-armour? From where did your guild skills come? Animal totems/spirits? Ancient orders of scholars? Did they have personalities and histories, or are they merely faceless names devoid of history and remembered only for their legacy of skills? This shared vision of the past is the very root of matters, for it is the nucleus of the bonds of Lore. It is the history behind a specific skill, or the norms and traditions of your guild, or the origins of some ritual that give these things their meaning.

This can all tie into jargon. Jargon, for those that don't know, is a specialized vocabulary of either new words, or existing words given very narrow meaning in that context. The title ``ur'Marshal'' means one and only one thing in the context of the ur'Guard, for example (and is meaningless outside that context). The title Prophet might mean any number of things, but in the Nihilists it means specifically one thing and only one thing. Jargon serves two goals goals simultaneously that are sometimes considered mutually exclusive. Jargon wrt Lore is both an inclusive and an exclusive device (if you can speak the lingo then you are one of us, and we'll teach it to you if you want to be one of us). Those included in the group have something special which sets them apart, but in order to induct new members we must teach it to them as well. I'm always happy when I hear a Nihilist use terms in their canonical form, because that means they have that buy-in stuff.

A shared vision for the future is often overlooked, but I think quite vital. The Fates and the Envoys will make sure skills change over time, and you should work with your Patron and Envoy in that process, but again I'm not talking about the mechanics; I'm talking about the social structures. Your guild will change. The real question is do you want to have any influence over that change, or do you want to be a bystander in that process? Easy test? Let your novices run amok and never once enforce your behaviour/decorum policies. Do that for a year and you'll see a BIG change, and probably one you don't like. [Easy example: the first few times you go to a gym the staff are happy to show you all the equipment and make suggestions on where to start. During the next few times, as you develop your routines, other clients are happy to offer suggestions on improving your technique and warn you if you're doing something wrong/unsafe. Everyone wants you to come, everyone wants you to be able to maximize your time there, and no one wants you to get injured. Their hope? You'll stick around and eventually encourage others with positive advice as well as warn against injury]. So a shared vision for the future is just as necessary as a shared vision for the past. At no point should the shared vision ever be Complete Remake (unless you're a gaudi, I suppose), but the usual case does not need to be status quo either. Status quo is perfectly fine, but if and only if your shared history is strong. If only 10% of your guildies know the history you're in a bad situation, because it's the majority (the other 90%) which decides the accepted Lore and cannon for your faction or skill. Me? I keep the changes to one-at-a-time and I take my time with them. In short, consider where both you and everyone else (or just the secretaries if you prefer) wants to see the Lore go in the future and you'll be fine. That shared vision of the future will be under constant evolution, by the way. It will never reach completion nor should it, because (assumedly) Lusternia will survive long after you've left your guild, and there will always be work for the others. Influence the future, but don't think you can control it.

The final part is not credits-for-x, or gold-for-y, or guildfavour-for-z. I'm getting into a jan-yew-ine community here. The kind of community where others want to contribute to its success in similar ways. What if you pick up just one skill and propose origins and explanations and rituals revolving around it? You've just strengthened your community by a considerable degree, and encouraged others to do the same thing. How did the office of the GC come to be, who was the first GC, what were their virtues or policies? Sometimes you'll be lucky and can build upon the writings of others, and I don't just mean those who came and went long before you. Your works can not only encourage, not only facilitate, but even be the motive for others to follow in the same path. Your treatise on one particular skill may be the impetus for another to reveal the origins of the entire guild, or specific relationships between the several nations, or relations between the other guilds with respect to your own. Ultimately we do this out of the sheer joy of doing so, and that's not some community of mere interest or community of vocation, but truly a community in spirit.

Ahh, now we see we've crossed back into the first list, point #4, members decide their own level of commitment. Lore, and the generation of Lore, can encourage more involvement. More involvement is exactly what we want, by the way, since it's just as frustrating when novices pop in for only a few days as it is when long-time friends simply stop connecting after years of companionship. For me the former is more bitter and painful, but your mileage may vary. I assert Lore aids retention: if Lore aids community, and community aids retention, then (via transitivity) Lore is the first place we should go after we've exhausted ``friendly chat'' (welcome!) and ``technical questions'' (how do I attack?) over the aethers. We need to help reassure the novices they are welcome in a proper community. One with a deep history and unique culture is far more compelling than any without, and the more compelling something is then the more immersive it is, and the more immersive it is the richer and more satisfying it is.

We've looked at the mechanics and theory behind it, but where to start? I would suggest you start simple. A magnum opus might not only take considerable time, but might deprive others from contributing (which defeats most of the theory here).

As @Lavinya stated, each of the factions have a handful of virtues/morals/tenets up front and in public. Your guild's novice help file probably describes those of your guild, and the Divine like to advertise the entry-level ideals for recruitment purposes. Are these documented? What if two of these virtues were co-mingled[0][1]?

Next one must not be too restrictive. Your purpose here is to inspire continued collaboration and contributions from others. You need to leave some wiggle-room for personal interpretation. This is especially important if you're a GA! Your secretaries and undersecretaries simply do not exist to parrot your ramblings, no matter how well-thought and insightful they may be. Let them do their job, so you can focus on yours. You do the broad-strokes, and let others fluff up the details.

Finally one must revisit the proposed Lore with a careful eye to ward away spurious criticism. Basically this means don't contradict any existing Lore if possible. If you are revealing the history of burst organs, for example, then make sure you affirm how it works (manipulating chi, evil spirits, whatever).

The Libellus Geomancie is in high regard because it firmly established a culture with rich traditions and values, yet left room for interpretation and even growth. His wife (Nariah) established traditions of similar strength, depth, and value within the Nihilists. This can be done on any level one desires (per-skill, per-skill-group, per-guild, per-nation, etc) as well. The test is that of adoption. If you are not describing a culture which is coherent then it will not be immersive, and if it is not immersive then it will not be compelling, and if it is not compelling then it will not be engaging. If it is not engaging then, by definition, no one will engage it.

So start small, focus on things/behaviours you want to encourage, consider the above WHAT and WHY (the bulk of this post), and eventually you'll have the best Lore of all time because the specifics come from you and your level of commitment/involvement. You should take your time (so others get a chance), but it won't take long.

[0] - Don't tread on Divine toes unless you're actually, well, you know, one of the Grand Poohbahs or High Muckitymucks. Even then, it's best to propose your interpretations and/or suggestions as questions rather than revelations; They tend to be pretty familiar with exactly what They have and have not revealed, thankyouverymuchZAP.
[1] - I have an answer, but no I'm not telling for two reasons: 1) You're not a Fainite, and 2) that notebook is in storage and I really don't want to dig it up at this time.

Lavinya · January 2015

(The libellus was written by Aiakon I am 98% sure, not Morvior.)

Delphas · January 2015

Lavinya said:

(The libellus was written by Aiakon I am 98% sure, not Morvior.)

Thank you for the correction. Like I told the Senate Committee, I am not now nor have I ever been a CommunistGeomancer.

Ileein · January 2015

I've always favored the "make shit up" method of lore creation. If there's a little detail about something you think would work-- maybe you think your guild would probably employ snappily-dressed young Trill to bring people tea in the lounge, to bring up an example that completely doesn't have any relationship to my life-- go with it, incorporate it into your emotes. If you're a writer, mention the background characters who aren't actually represented in the game but who must, perforce, exist: the "extras" of Lusternia. Just be willing to be creative. Some stuff will stick, some stuff won't, but if everyone is willing to step outside the boundaries of what they know to be true every now and then, it'll be a lot richer game. The point is, Lusternia's an exercise in creative storytelling as much as it is anything else, and everyone has a part in writing that story.

Caveat, of course: there's a difference between filling a gap in existing lore and contravening it. But that's a common sense thing.

Maligorn · January 2015

HI ILEEIN

Saran · January 2015

Lore is really frustrating to explain and what makes it good is well... really individual.

When I was looking at the lore for the Hartstone what made the most sense for them was vague and nebulous concepts, but there are other guilds where specificity actually works better. (I'm looking at Hallifax here)

It's the heart and soul of your guild, it why we do things the way we do, it's how each guild sees and interacts with the world.

Sure your lore could be something like...

But what defines that as good lore or bad lore is the context in which it exists, in say... the Shofangi it would be dismissed as silly nonsense.

In a Hallifax guild you could potentially write it up as part of a series of mandatory uniforms for some security purpose, and it could be okay.

In the order of some fashionista-type god it might be really entertaining and great.

(Gapp one of the gods in the discworld mud has the kinda cool mechanic of making it easier to use skills if you're wearing what is deemed fashionable that week).

It all really just comes down to the guild and what fits, like... in hallifax having really long words and titles and everything works, but similarly somewhere else it might really work to just something simple at someone and have them completely understand, (Think "I see you" in Na'vi from Avatar).

I could write more but like... work is over now.

Ventidius · January 2015

Lavinya said:

(The libellus was written by Aiakon I am 98% sure, not Morvior.)

Argh, how could I forget one of the greatest Geomancers of all time.

It's still a good book.

Lisaera · January 2015

The lore I've interacted with in Serenwilde is an intense combination of steadfast (and sometimes outright stubborn) determination on behalf of the players who live there and the efforts of nature Gods across time to meet them somewhere in the middle. You guys can't see the notes we have (as I mentioned in one of my blog posts, we have our own "drawing board" of sorts), but a lot of what I've seen really does boil down to a "request for change" scenario like this becoming "canonized":

"The Big Guild of Wonder wants a new goal. They like rabbits, offerings to the depths of space, and bananas, but their current 'lore' says they only like oranges. They want us to work on making the oranges part of their canonical status quo. Can we do that?"

(cue comments and criticisms and concerns from the rest of the Gods, until a consensus is reached)

"Conclusion: The Big Guild of Wonder was designed to be this way, but we think it would be OK if we gave them nectarines and, maybe, apples, because we think that will fit nicely with the depths of space theme - cores, seeds, and so on. So, now that we have direction, let's build a pocket/area/release a new denizen who can help solidify this change. Lisaera, get to work, if you can! If you can't, then we'll see if someone else can take the helm for now."

And so on and so on. A lot of the big changes that have happened in Serenwilde's physical area (the little quests, the extensions to different areas, and so on) have been inspired by ideas the players came up with.

It happens often. Some are speedier adjustments, like when an organization wants to swap out one colour for another in some of their guildhall decor. Others, like the idea above, take a lot more planning and typically a lot of behind-the-scenes programming to bring to life. We build sketch pages for all of the ideas that seem feasible, and then it's just a matter of timing.

I know this isn't that kind of thread, and I hope I didn't derail things too far from the central point (lore vs. canon vs. player-driven ideas), but I wanted to shed a little light on how we typically handle this type of situation.

As for the smaller bits, which I think most of you have alluded to, such as writing propaganda pamphlets about things you've made up, submitting books for prestige that may be complete fabrications, or forcing your entire family to believe in One Orange - KEEP DOING THIS. It's not just up to the Gods to develop these fabulous ideas, and @everiine made a pretty solid point about the Winter Court - we'll notice certain elements of player-driven content that seem, for whatever reason, to rise above the rest and help carry them forward. To me, spurring along elements of the game that have been completely designed by players is one of my favorite aspects of having the power to do that sort of work.

Ventidius · January 2015

Where guilds are concerned, I think there is an importance that they be drastically different from each other, especially if in the same city/community. Take Magnagora for example.

Geomancers want to spread the Taint.

The ur'Guard want to spread Undeath and venerate Urlach.

Nihilists worship the Demon Lords.

Cacophony just want to watch the world burn.

The Ninjakari are monks.

All -very- different from each other. Try it on your org's guilds. Figure out 3 goals each guild shares the others don't.

Delphas · January 2015

I'm going to give my advice and interpretations on a few bits which I think might enjoy amplification. I could be wrong, so try to use your own judgement and a hefty dose of common sense. Don't be afraid to work with your Patron too. From my experience, They really do want to enhance and expand Lusternia and They have a perspective (as well as access to documentation) which simply is not available to us.

A distinction between two different types of Lore should be discussed. A great deal of Lore does not require any sort of Administrative approval. Consecrating a specific ceremony/ritual to praise Queen Nifilhema for Her revelation of the Dark Cosmic Secret of Torture would be a fine example. One is affirming the documentation (AB NIHILISM TORTURE) and enhancing the culture of the Church. There also exists Lore which may very well require approval from the Divine and Staff. To stretch an analogy a bit further, it might be difficult to convince IRE for the Banana Republic to denounce bananas in favour of oranges. This stems from some excellent points made by @Lisaera which, in my experience, bear some amplification.

The greater the scope of any proposed Lore, then with the greater caution one should tread. If your idea is limited (say, a single guild-skill-item), affirms established documentation (AB file, or scholarly work winner), and serves as a social construct only (RP ritual, or RP banter), then you're probably free to do as you like. I've heard Master Veritus wake up and speak over the Church aether to agree with my interpretations. I've also heard Duke Ashtorath wake up and chastise another for their woefully mistaken ideas. Part of this comes to IRE's ``vision''. This is good because you can certainly count on feed-back if you are dedicated to fostering your guild/nation's culture.

IRE does have and maintain a coherent vision for all of Lusternia, and all her components/constituencies. Authors of serials often call this a ``bible'', since it's the canon of their ``world''. In Lusternia these documents must be encompassing and well-maintained because it must survive the churn/turn-over of Divine and Staff. In many companies employees only stick around for 5-7 years. I hear the turn-over for the volunteer Divine is usually considerably less; something on the order of 3 years. Those who have ever worked on large projects (those taking entire teams a year or more to bring to completion) tacitly understand the necessity of a coherent and common vision for the project. A lack of vision (or even deviation in interpretation) can crush a project, so project sponsors and/or project leads must be sure to maintain a clear and coherent vision, and be certain to accurately convey this vision. Heads tend to roll after $600,000 has been spent in payroll alone and there are no results to show and the project is delayed too. That doesn't mean nothing can change (your mileage may vary). I'm certain IRE gets damn giddy when a Good Idea comes down the pike, but Big Ideas require more consideration before approval, and considerably more work to ensure everything integrates into a single, coherent vision. So a great deal of work has gone into creating this ideal, which means you can be certain Staff and Divine are going to be very careful about overturning their own apple cart.

I would say the first thing one must work out is the in-context basis of the proposed Lore. To return to the above analogy, it is probably simply not enough to merely request ``The Banana Republic favours oranges now.'' What in the culture/history of Lusternia prompts this change? To put it another way, if your idea has a very large scope and/or proposes changes, then you're probably going to need to do your homework. Large scope means it must be evaluated within the present vision of IRE and the implications of the change need to be reconciled. This doesn't mean the answer is a guaranteed ``No'', but common sense will be your best guide here. I would say the chance of the Nihilists somehow turning their back on the Infernal Demon Lords and Lady is quite literally nil (pun intended), but if someone wrote a 400 page impact and feasibility study it at least might get a hearing. On the other hand, attributing Ninukhi to ancient Master Eldathl and consecrating this secret with a specific ritual and proposing a well-conceived quest to learn more about the history of this secret form of the Kata might be totally awesome. Even if you don't get the quest you still did a Good Deed. As I understand things, you can have it all but if and only if you're willing to the work.

The work is preparation (how does this fit with everything else?) and reconciliation (what happens if it is adopted?). So, to continue the previous example, you've managed to write up your interpretation and history of Ninukhi. If your goal was to make a nice ceremony for a guildrite or guild book then you've done a fine job. If you wanted something more grand then you also made a nice biography and demeanor of Master Eldathl, wrote a very nice appearance of him, and scaffolded and storyboarded a nice quest to reveal this all. Either way, I say ``Bravo!'', but ask yourself what happens if this proposal were approved? How does it reconcile with any other existing Lore? If Ninukhi was somehow perfected long before the kephera had even discovered the secret forms of the Kata, then how is it the illithoid remained imprisoned since they could have easily broken free with such skill? If the illithoid masters came to this discovery late in the arms race, why didn't the kephera simply annihilate the illithoid?

These questions are important because Lusternia is not a collection of independent systems, but an organic whole which cannot be divided; it is atomic. Hence I suggest starting small. This encourages other individuals to contribute, and that synergy creates an autocatalytic process of an ever improving and growing base of Lore. Once you have these building blocks you can, and should, expand to greater objectives. New areas+denizens+items+quests+honours are all available, but not at the drop of a hat. Any Lore which impacts the tangible environment requires some integration within the rest of the environment, and that process can be lengthy. It's not impossible, but a big helping factor is building on existing Lore, which means it is in your interest to start small. By establishing a base of tradition and interpretation you are building up evidence to support your future Lore efforts, and also providing the Divine and Staff ample opportunity to arrest and correct matters if things start to go contrary to Their vision of things. All parties win.

In my book? The best Lore is the fundamental Lore. A ritual, or a simple explanation. This leaves ample room for personal interpretation and is fertile ground for others to build upon. We need the former because no one connects to Lusternia to be a thought-slave to someone else. We call such people ``oppressed'' in the Real World. In the Real World they suffer until an (unlikely) revolution happens or they (more likely) can smuggle theirselves out of the county. In Mud's they just join a different one which isn't so domineering (Bad Thing). We want to create fertile ground for others to follow in our footsteps for a great number of reasons. Firstly, you might hop guilds! It would be a shame if your hopping culturally crippled it simply because you and you alone were the caretaker of truth. Secondly, and sadly, you might even stop playing for a while (or forever). People get married. Tough semesters start. Children are born. New jobs start. We all get assigned to one hell of a death-march of a project at work. Whatever. The fact is, at some point, we are all unavailable for an extended period of time at some points in our lives. If you lay the foundations for the self-sufficiency of your guild, then you lay the foundations for the guild to remain vibrant and viable in perpetuity.

I am reminded of the Dark wisdom of Duke Ashtorath in His revelation of His Gift of Flame: if you give a man a fire he will be warm for a night, but if you set a man on fire he will be warm for the rest of his life.

Qistrel · January 2015

I sometimes tell people that we got lightning bugs added to our skills because I'm the northern prophet of Lord Beetle, and He was pleased with me.

Saran · January 2015

Qistrel said:

I sometimes tell people that we got lightning bugs added to our skills because I'm the northern prophet of Lord Beetle, and He was pleased with me.

While an entertaining take, I still feel that the skills of the Hartstone (Lightning bugs being a more visible example) are sometimes rather distinct from their plot hooks in the guild hall.

Like, the lightning bugs didn't really exist until suddenly there was a skill for them and now they're popping up in a few different places.

In contrast there's a quite a few interconnection and temporal themes in the guild hall hooks (the stones fit both, the aspects are kinda temporal kinda not), And all forms of deeper lore that doesn't seem like it has always made it to Druidry and Stag, (Ancestral curse is an example of an exception which is actually quite like, but ironically, the terts seem to fit with the hall a little more than the primaries do)

I guess I just think that core lore should be pervasive, which to me is about the (i guess) "why"s of the organisation.

Like "why do you exist?" "why do you do things the way you do?" "why don't you like this?" "why will you fight for this?"

Which ideally should reach through the guild hall and their skills to how they are presented in events and the like.

Need to stop rambling but one weird thought that occurred was what difference it would make if ringwalk raised a circle of stones rather than the stag spirit?

Portius · January 2015

It has been suggested that I go through the process I've been using on Hallifax's vassal pack lore. This seems to have been recognized as at least semi-canonical (see Daraius' logs) and the process might be useful for people who are looking into adding something completely new to their org.

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Have to start with an explanation of the vassal packs for the people who don't follow the library. Briefly, the core concept is that there was a significant loboshigaru minority population in Hallifax prior to the Taint Wars, and that they were a discrete subculture within the city. Read the books if you want the thorough version, they are available in your org's library.

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Now, the whole process started with the need for new lore. The driving factors for this were pretty simple, and tied to Hallifax's library.

1. I needed a concept that could produce a lot of related library books to get culture points. I was operating under the principal that I (I was librarian at the time) would probably get more books from other people if they had clear topics that they could start from. So I wanted something that would leave a lot of room for other people to expand upon, but would still provide a very clear starting point for them. History was the clear way to go for that, since new discoveries could be made all the time, even ones that contradicted previous works.

2. I wanted Hallifax to have a reason to have more variety in its culture without any sort of RP clash. Something for people who don't want the upper class regency style thing mixed with a little bit of cold war style fiction we have going on. The easiest way to add in a precedent for that, lore-wise, is simply by inventing a subculture.

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Once I knew that I needed new lore, I had to work out what it would be. Loboshigaru were a really easy choice. Why?

1. Pack mentality allows immediate integration into the whole collective identity and state service thing that Hallifax has going on. This was the main reason I considered loboshigaru to start.

2. @Daraius exists, and was expected to be a useful resource. I was not disappointed, and consulted him regularly.

3. There's already lobo lore in the game for the vassal packs to instersect with, both from Tosha and the existing interest in lobo racial RP from people like Daraius.

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The next stage was working out the details of the new lore, beyond the core concept of Hallifaxian lobos. This is where I first started talking with Daraius, because I figured he'd know more or less all existing lobo lore by heart.

Everything about the packs was constructed either to accomplish specific goals, or else as a a detail resulting from the broader principals.

1. First, they had to be a discrete subculture. The easiest and most natural way to do this was by having them retain their pack structure and some tribal customs while being in Hallifax. This immediately sets them apart from everyone else, but it begs a question. Why would Hallifax tolerate that level of deviancy?

2. Because loboshigaru offer something that Hallifax really needed. They're good physical fighters, a traditional weak spot for trill and lucidian citizens. Hallifax is pragmatic, so they'd tolerate pretty much anything if the payout was high enough.

3. Those two ideas set up a lot of the details. There'd have to be tension between the packs and everyone else, both because tension is narratively useful and because it makes sense for there to be some between distinct cultural groups. At the same time, the packs had to be integrated into the rest of Hallifax to some degree if things were going to make sense. So I had to set up a way for that tension to be resolved, and to make sure there were some similarities.

4. The need to resolve tension set up a detail. The loboshigaru packs were treated as military units and had more political officers than normal, because the rest of Hallifax simply didn't trust them as much as they trusted the people in proper castes. This establishes tension without conflict.

5. The similarities were governed by a mix of what came from previously decided details and personal convenience. I decided there should be some artistic similarities, because art is important to Hallifax. I settled on epic poetry as the common point there. Part of that is the simple fact that I can churn out epic poetry at the Lusternia standard very quickly, which makes the writing easier on me. But it also makes sense for the loboshigaru, who would be descended from nomadic packs who probably had more of an oral tradition than a written one. Not only does that synch up pretty well with epic verse, but it provides a contrast between mainstream Hallifaxian epic and vassal epic. The vassal packs could be the Homer to the Hallifaxian Virgil. This is great, because it allows for similarity without being identical in any aspect.

6. I also decided that the packs would be led to some extent by their intellectuals, as analogs to the upper castes in Hallifax. This links them to the masters of the Tosha monastery, who also lead because of their intellectual/spiritual achievements. At the same time, they aren't purely Toshan, so I didn't want them to be fully led by the intellectuals. This led to the dual nature of the vassal pack's sages, where they're either sages because they're old and respected or because they're very good at a rare skill. You have some Hallifax there and something different. This is good.

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After that, it just came down to writing books. Details were added more or less as necessary as the writing continued, with Daraius checking everything for lore cohesion before publishing. I think that's an important stage. Having someone who knew what he was doing to check my stuff made a huge difference. There's two big points I want to throw in here about that, which don't fit in much of anywhere else.

1. Throwing out bad ideas is important. I initially considered adding in an element where occasional trill/lucidians went native and integrated themselves into the packs. Daraius pointed out that loboshigaru probably wouldn't take them. Instead, I went with them preferring people who worked with them over long periods of time over strangers, but still not treating them as packmates. This helped to keep them as a subculture, and was a good thing. It also help set up a narrative device from the art book where I go treat a pack-obssessed trill as an eccentric, with an obsession that let me focus on lobo stuff in his will almost exclusively without being too improbable. I didn't think of that when I established this, of course, but it shows that being coherent with details can pay dividends later.

2. Having Daraius interested helped guide the development of the pack mythos, which happened over time. There was an author auction in Hallifax a while back, and Daraius won me. To nobody's surprise, he wanted a vassal pack book. He gave a few options for topic, which helped make sure the lore developed in directions that the lobo people would probably care about, but that I wouldn't have though about because I'm really more of a Hallifax person than a loboshigaru person.

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I'm sure I've skimmed over things, but that's more or less the process. I'd be fascinated to hear about how people who weren't involved in the writing, or were Daraius and involved more in the planning than the actual composition (apart from a cool Tosha book that you should all read) have interacted with this, either whichever god (as the Oneiroi. Stay anonymous, it's cooler that way.) animated Quettle to discuss it with Daraius or any players who have read it. I haven't done a terribly good job of publicizing it, which is absolutely a thing that you have to figure out how to do if you want it to spread. That's kind of ok for a library thing, since most writers will probably read books that are mentioned in Daraius' Year in Review, but not if you ever want non-culture people to get exposed to it.

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EDIT: Because I'm neurotic about adding in forgotten things. You should always feel free to imply things that your character might not have realized when you're writing lore, especially if you're inventing primary sources to go with it, which is itself a very strong strategy that I rely on. There are two big examples of this in the vassal pack things, both relating to poetry.

1. Loboshigaru poetry in Hallifax was mostly improvised. I compared the lobos to Homer above, and that's where this comes from. This assumes that the Oral-Formulaic hypothesis for Homer is correct, of course, but it's certainly true of the loboshigaru IG. This isn't just something that Portius failed to notice in his research, either. This is something that he got terribly wrong. He assumed that loboshigaru poets memorized their verses in advance because the full epyllion he translated was shorter than Hallifaxian poems of the period. This is wrong.

Why include a deliberate mistake? It adds in a chance for more conversation and argument if people want to discuss it. You have to be careful with this sort of thing, since you have to have a mistake that people can catch and poke at. I made sure to stick in things that support the "correct" form that Portius didn't recognize, too. Things like using poetic forms that are representative of actual oral-formulaic poetry.

2. Loboshigaru performed epic poetry while wearing masks of the characters, and only got a character's mask once they first performed as that character. I insinuated this with a scholiast's comment on a poem, and just had Portius ignore it in his own commentary. This leaves it as a detail for other people to pick at later. They might interpret it differently from what I intended, and that's alright. That gives other people influence to come up with plausible things which I didn't!

There's a unifying factor here for why Portius didn't recognize these things. They're very far outside his expectation for poetry. That's a thing that you should keep in mind if you're writing primary sources and commentaries on them. The two things are, ICly, being written by different people and you can use that to your advantage. Have your interpretation be clearly skewed by modern ethics and customs. It adds more room for discussion, and anything that adds interactivity is going to be good in the long run for lore adoption.

Saran · January 2015

Oh, actually one thing that I remembered that I've both been guilty of but now find to be jarring and a pet peeve.

Incorporating RL elements (lets just group this as things outside the game) into orgs for "reasons"

There are cases where this is definitely okay, but generally speaking those are probably limited to inspirations. Taking things from cultures both real and fictitious can help in many ways. Looking into things like Animism, Wicca, Druidry, The Witches of Eilieanan, maybe even The Craft, or Pan's Labyrinth can help with generating ideas (for serenwilde).

But then we have the danger of leaning too heavily on the inspirations and adding things not because they make sense but because they are part of the inspiration.

It's hard to really define where the line is but I suppose it comes when you need to defend it for reasons that aren't related to your orgs identity.

Like... calling the quarters for Wiccan guilds I personally don't think would make as much sense. It might work for Sun or a seasonal based spirit where you're calling four aspects, but barring that it kinda feels like it's in there "because that's what wiccan's do"

Of course, if there's some really cool reason for why rituals venerating Night would have this step then that's awesome and go for it. (If the day lengths changed you could be incorporating something about periods of strength and rest etc)

Qistrel · January 2015

Actually, lightning bugs were in Serenwilde before the guild got them as a 'We need a new attack skill.' They were just called fireflies, because they are. :P

The lightning bugs popped up just as @Daxi and I were cementing Qistrel's beetle stuff. It was a really cool coincidence.

Ventidius · January 2015

Sometimes i think when people say or ask what their guild or citys lore is, they forget thT if they have to ask this, then instead of thinking ot has nothing, think of it as something you can add. Next time yu want to talk about roleplay or lore, tr to be the one who makes it. Younger guilds are usually better to do this in, as older guilds, like Paladins or Nihilists have less wiggle room. So dont think of lack of rp as a curse, but instead a boon. In the end, at least you tried, and if t doesnt explode, then hey, you can pass it to newbies still to inspire them. Less lamenting, more roleplaying (although i agree thre are lot of lore problems around).

Saran · January 2015

Qistrel said:

Actually, lightning bugs were in Serenwilde before the guild got them as a 'We need a new attack skill.' They were just called fireflies, because they are. :P

The lightning bugs popped up just as @Daxi and I were cementing Qistrel's beetle stuff. It was a really cool coincidence.

I guess I mean more that it's something that felt out of place, as opposed to perhaps taking something that was already factored into the Hartstone and weaponising that.

Unfortunately the best example I've thought of is utilizing the flame of the ancestors which would've potentially resulted in divinus and fire (and that leads to people potentially thinking it's for mechanical benefits

)

I think it also stands out because it was incorporated into the entrance and look messages for the Hartstone.

Of course, Wildewood is worse but I don't have the energy for that discussion cause I'm still annoyed about it.

Qistrel · January 2015

Oh, right, that makes sense. But...you are welcome to look at Qistrel sideways and mutter about the crazy beetle druid and her lightning bugs invading the guild. :P

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What makes lore 'good' for an organisation, guild, deity, or skill?

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