Bringing a population argument into this just points out the flaws in the 'ban TA' argument even more
Yes, winning a seal has it's rewards which you can then just roll into winning a seal again, but that extends to more than just TA's. Multiple people have won multiple seals (including me) so arguing that only the ones that win TA should be banned from War while saying it's okay for the rest to continue winning is a flaky argument at best. Especially considering that the suggestion was made that TA's should be able to compete in everything but War.
@Kelly has won 2 seals (Death/Chaos), @Malarious has won 3 (Chaos x2 and Justice), @Ixion has won War/Harmony, @Kiradawea has won Knowledge twice now, @Usharra has won Nature/Knowledge, @Morbo won Justice twice, @Vadi has won Life/War. None of these people are TA's, yet they completely support that the 'rich get richer ' and the 'fun' should be spread around. Most other TA's (minus Xenthos and myself) have only one 1 seal (iirc), so the issue extends much farther than 'just ban TA's'
That's why I think any argument about TA's being banned is the 'fair thing' to do so others have a chance is crap, especially considering we can't win the seal itself. @Vadi isn't being carried, he's actively contributed to our wins each time, and he actively contributed to the win earlier today. Any argument otherwise is just plain false.
You can't know that unless you let him go and be on his own. Perhaps with Feyda and a third. Everyone knows Vadi is a capable and strong melder,
but you're not allowing him to prove it every time you step into War with him. You want the highest chance of him winning.
Sounds like you're just desperately clinging to your winner's circle at this point, if you want to throw down personal things like "bitter and salty" and "complete crap". It's not a flaky argument because, despite Kelly and all the others winning multiple seals, they are not TAs themselves yet. They haven't pulled past the bloat and/or backed others during Ascension. I'm so terribly sorry for you for winning TA, because that's what you're making it sound like -- that you're missing out on all the fun because you won TA and I'm taking the only thing left to you. Because apparently the only time you have fun is during War Challenge, yeah?
Garbage is what that is.
I want to say it's understandable, but I'd be dipping into Tetra rhetoric. We'll see how tomorrow plays out!
Remember, I'm talking War here. The other Seals have their own problems. I don't consider Knowledge, Nature, or Justice to be as game-able as War. Death and Harmony are what they are -- who has the most live bodies to hinder and kill and shatter the competition (used to be Chaos too). Chaos was changed this year and it was actually a big improvement. Life is something you train and plan for with your citymates, and it's a challenge I don't have a problem with.
Wow I think it's pretty insulting to Vadi to insinuate he only wins because of Shuyin and Sidd, TAs or not. (They weren't always, and people have always been upset at the strength of their team!)
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm not insinuating it. I'm just saying we're never gonna know for sure as far as War Challenge goes!
You realize how absurd you are sounding here, don't you? You are demanding that a person who wants to win War deliberately cripple his team and his chances by choosing to fight alongside people with whom he has far less experience, and thus less ability to work with to the best extent he can.
War is a team event. It is entirely, 100% about practicing with your team, knowing each other well, knowing what to do under specific circumstances to get back together and where, and having everything all plotted out ahead of time. The team that gets surprised, loses.
Yes, artifacts help. They do not win it, however. What wins it is the collaboration between the contestants, and reading your posts, I see nothing except "I think someone other than Vadi should win, so he should have a team that he doesn't have the practice or experience with so that it will be 'fair'."
Rofl what does tomorrow have to do with anything. If we win, then it just means that we're better than anyone else.
Actually, even if we win, it never counts / we still lose because we cheesed/TA/OP/Illuminati/Destruction. No one ever says they lost because they got outplayed.
It is also definitely insulting that you guys keep saying that Vadi gets carried by us. Why is it that when we help others, we carry them, but when Saoirse/etc/etc helps Kelly via being an intervention target / empress / trueheal etc. it's suddenly excellent teamwork and no one bats an eye? That's pretty dumb.
No, I'm saying if he's all that worthy of winning War seal, he should be able to coordinate with people that aren't True Ascendants, who have already proven that they are master tacticians. I'm not copping an insult train on Vadi here, no matter how much you guys want to think I am.
You keep talking like Vadi has deliberately set himself up with TAs so he can win. It's actually happenstance more than anything, because they have been a team for years and years, and almost always done well. But fair would be him putting aside all the work they have done as a team and joining up with someone else? That doesn't sound all that fair.
Your argument is that it's not fair for TA's to compete in War because they are already TA's. It's time for them to let someone else win.
So how about Kelly letting someone else win, or Malarious letting someone else win.
Look at this years winners so far, everyone one of them has previously won a Seal. not a single new person has won one. Here's the catch, not a single TA will win a Seal, War or otherwise.
But somehow, some way, in your mind, that's 'fair' and us competing in War, is not. How should I not take this anti-TA crusade as anything other than 'salty bitterness' when you are championing previous seal-winners continuing to win, but a TA who won once should be DQ'd from a tournament he can't get a seal in anyway?
That's a garbage argument that strictly just streams from a 'it's totally unfair because because you won TA!' Nothing else you present is factual or even backed up. There are plenty of people with more artifacts, experience, coding expertise etc than Shuyin or me, or really any other TA. If it was @Xenthos competing, would you be saying the same thing? (No offense @Xenthos) Somehow, I don't think so.
BTW, winning the War seal two times running, is proving that Vadi is capable of fighting and winning in the War seal, he has one. Otherwise, if you manage to ever get on a team that wins, I'll just say that you were carried by your two teammates, because that's essentially what this is boiling down too. No way Vadi can possibly contribute to our win because we're TA's and he's not. amirite?
Garbage is what your entire premise and argument is.
You guys think I'm bitter, but you just don't understand the scope of my concern here. I literally cannot be bitter about something I decided I did not want to participate in. That is one of the most ludicrous things I've ever heard. If I were any good, I might've been solicited, but I'm perfectly ok with being a low to mid tier combatant/perpetual whiner/pessimist if that's what people want to think.
Literally no one has addressed my concerns about Lusternia's imbalance and are focusing instead on name-calling and "lol he's so salty and bitter what a noob". Give me a fucking break. Actually read what I have to say. Then disagree or agree without putting nasty barbs in your replies.
You're not focused on any kind of perceived imbalance, you're focused on denying a certain subset of players the right to participate in a competition because they previously won TA (not even War, just TA)
It's fair because no matter how many Seals they've won, they have not proven that they are the master tactician and won TA themselves. So yes, they should receive more chances to win the ultimate prize. They still have a horse in the race, so to speak. Your horse has been sucked beyond the seals and is chilling with Kethuru for all eternity.
The distinction is slight, but it most certainly is there and it does have problematic consequences. It's not one huge thing, but a lot of little things coming together that are contributing to the wane of this game.
it's unfair because those TAs have already proven that they are formidable opponents and shouldn't be allowed to actively affect the competition in that way. We get it, you're strong and coordinated. Now let's see what you can do when you are forced to play with others. That, I think, is perfectly fair. Because VadiShuSynk -- we get it. You guys work really well together and have for literal years. A. not everyone has that benefit and B. you guys do deserve to be separated for the fairness of the game and C. there is already a precedent of TAs not allowed to participate in challenges. Frankly, I'd say what Elanorwen said and allow for no TA interference whatsoever beyond teaching and training their hopefuls. I just watered down my argument so it would be more palatable.
It's like junior high gym class when the two most athletic boys are chosen as team captains and pitted against each other. You don't want them both on the same team because they'll just dominate the rest of the poor little kids.
EDIT: inb4 comments that Elanorwen has gotten to me or I'm just like Elanorwen.
Master Tactician...I think a lot of the achievement of TA comes down to the support and not -just- the winner themselves. They had a team backing to win a seal (for most events), and they have a team, actually possibly a whole alliance to win that final challenge. If the final challenge excluded everyone but the seal winners that statement would mean more. Why do you think orgs have gotten so upset in the past over TAs that changed org after being raised? Because of the team effort to get them there. I guarantee all of the TAs will attribute their win to more than their masterful tactics and a whole lot on the support of everyone who backed them as their 'champ'.
That's true also. But you can't deny that they are also leading forces -wherever- they go. A zerg of people is nothing without someone keeping up and telling them what to do.
. There are plenty of people with more artifacts, experience, coding expertise etc than Shuyin or me, or really any other TA. If it was @Xenthos competing, would you be saying the same thing? (No offense @Xenthos) Somehow, I don't think so.
And for the love of Christ, stop trying to replicate my thought process. If I say no TAs, I mean literally no TAs. If Ilyarin suddenly came back and was ready for some fucking action I'd still say no.
You guys can't seriously think I'm this petty. Seriously.
Your perception that @Vadi hasn't essentially proven himself in a War team time and time again simply because @Shuyin and @Synkarin are there attempts to downplay his own substantial contributions to his team, and I have to call shenanigans on that and most every other point you've tried to put across.
I have literally no doubt that Vadi makes substantial contributions to the team. I've said that several times. I know he's good, I know he's a fucking good melder, literally think he's a Blacktalon god or something (since I haven't seen him Pyro) but I still think that he should be separated from Shuyin and Synkarin to figure out something with a different team. If other teams had a longstanding TA in them, I'd say the same exact thing.
it's unfair because those TAs have already proven that they are formidable opponents and shouldn't be allowed to actively affect the competition in that way.
The TL;DR of this is that Maligorn thinks certain people should be banned from War because they're good at war.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
it's unfair because those TAs have already proven that they are formidable opponents and shouldn't be allowed to actively affect the competition in that way.
The TL;DR of this is that Maligorn thinks certain people should be banned from War because they're good at war.
I don't know what to say to this. You yourself admitted it was a facetious comment and it riled me up because "certain people" sounds like "Maligorn wantz 2 ban all the good people" instead of "all True Ascendants". Sorry for calling you a know-it-all.
it's unfair because those TAs have already proven that they are formidable opponents and shouldn't be allowed to actively affect the competition in that way.
The TL;DR of this is that Maligorn thinks certain people should be banned from War because they're good at war.
I don't know what to say to this. You yourself admitted it was a facetious comment and it riled me up because "certain people" sounds like "Maligorn wantz 2 ban all the good people" instead of "all True Ascendants". Sorry for calling you a know-it-all.
My facetious comment was calling for a banning of Irillia and the rest because they're good at designing. Minor hyperbole, but I found it amusing.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
All I can say now is read what I have to say and imagine I'm not biased -- because I literally don't have a stake in War (not that I won't root for Kelly-sempai) -- just the possibility of backing Ushaara's (or maybe even Kiradawea's) Ascension (at this point). It's seriously, 100% how I feel. I'm pouring out my thoughts and, excuse the fucking ham, heart into what I'm typing here.
I'm not just sitting around in my boxers thinking of "how can I piss off everyone today". Really, seriously.
Last time I checked, we're fighting a soulless god who wants to devour us and everything we know. I'm pretty sure the War competition is meant to find the strongest people, and Avechna isn't quite as worried about balanced teams as he is making sure we get a war champion. Just saying
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
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but you're not allowing him to prove it every time you step into War with him. You want the highest chance of him winning.
Sounds like you're just desperately clinging to your winner's circle at this point, if you want to throw down personal things like "bitter and salty" and "complete crap". It's not a flaky argument because, despite Kelly and all the others winning multiple seals, they are not TAs themselves yet. They haven't pulled past the bloat and/or backed others during Ascension. I'm so terribly sorry for you for winning TA, because that's what you're making it sound like -- that you're missing out on all the fun because you won TA and I'm taking the only thing left to you. Because apparently the only time you have fun is during War Challenge, yeah?
Garbage is what that is.
I want to say it's understandable, but I'd be dipping into Tetra rhetoric. We'll see how tomorrow plays out!
Remember, I'm talking War here. The other Seals have their own problems. I don't consider Knowledge, Nature, or Justice to be as game-able as War. Death and Harmony are what they are -- who has the most live bodies to hinder and kill and shatter the competition (used to be Chaos too). Chaos was changed this year and it was actually a big improvement. Life is something you train and plan for with your citymates, and it's a challenge I don't have a problem with.
You realize how absurd you are sounding here, don't you? You are demanding that a person who wants to win War deliberately cripple his team and his chances by choosing to fight alongside people with whom he has far less experience, and thus less ability to work with to the best extent he can.
War is a team event. It is entirely, 100% about practicing with your team, knowing each other well, knowing what to do under specific circumstances to get back together and where, and having everything all plotted out ahead of time. The team that gets surprised, loses.
Yes, artifacts help. They do not win it, however. What wins it is the collaboration between the contestants, and reading your posts, I see nothing except "I think someone other than Vadi should win, so he should have a team that he doesn't have the practice or experience with so that it will be 'fair'."
To me, that's not fair at all.
Literally no one has addressed my concerns about Lusternia's imbalance and are focusing instead on name-calling and "lol he's so salty and bitter what a noob". Give me a fucking break. Actually read what I have to say. Then disagree or agree without putting nasty barbs in your replies.
The distinction is slight, but it most certainly is there and it does have problematic consequences. It's not one huge thing, but a lot of little things coming together that are contributing to the wane of this game.
it's unfair because those TAs have already proven that they are formidable opponents and shouldn't be allowed to actively affect the competition in that way. We get it, you're strong and coordinated. Now let's see what you can do when you are forced to play with others. That, I think, is perfectly fair. Because VadiShuSynk -- we get it. You guys work really well together and have for literal years. A. not everyone has that benefit and B. you guys do deserve to be separated for the fairness of the game and C. there is already a precedent of TAs not allowed to participate in challenges. Frankly, I'd say what Elanorwen said and allow for no TA interference whatsoever beyond teaching and training their hopefuls. I just watered down my argument so it would be more palatable.
It's like junior high gym class when the two most athletic boys are chosen as team captains and pitted against each other. You don't want them both on the same team because they'll just dominate the rest of the poor little kids.
EDIT: inb4 comments that Elanorwen has gotten to me or I'm just like Elanorwen.
You guys can't seriously think I'm this petty. Seriously.
I'm not just sitting around in my boxers thinking of "how can I piss off everyone today". Really, seriously.
Just think about what I've said is all I ask.
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