Ascension 2015

Lavinya · January 2015

Saesh said:

I've always supported the argument that mechanics shouldn't be put in place to nullify choices made simply because those choices become temporarily inconvenient. There's a degree of wiggle room here regarding the restrictions on buffs during Justice because I understand the need to not turn everything into a min/max race, but ultimately race, organization, and guild are choices you all have made with consequences and perks of varying degrees across the board. Is playing in Mag the "short end of the stick," when it comes to Justice. The argument can certainly be made, as can the argument that Geomancers are better off than Aquamancers (not saying I believe this one way or the other), thus getting the short end of the stick in War. Arguments regarding who has the short end of any particular stick could be made on a seemingly infinite number of topics.

Ultimately, someone is going to have an advantage, be it through race, artifacts, skills, etc. There are many places you can draw the line so that the competition can be normalized, but I believe in drawing that line as conservatively as possible. The line between skills and buffs is sometimes slimmer or more blurry than we give it credit for. A general rule of thumb, for me, is that it's unfair if an unbuffed player can't realistically overcome a buffed player. If an unbuffed player can realistically beat a buffed player, accounting for skill, RNG, and whatever else, I don't see a reason to change it.

Whoah there, I actually find this statement to be quite backward in supporting the banning of certain defs and skills - if we've made choices about which org and guild we play in, we've also made choices about which skills we have access to. I'm a bard, but I'm not allowed to use bardic presence? How does the argument of 'temporarily inconvenience' fit in there?

I understand that disallowing some skills and buffs (like beasts) is an attempt to keep things on fairer footing, but you can't take them away and still wag your finger telling us 'tsk tsk, you made your choice of org and guild' since much of those things removed come from those choices! A Nihilist viscanti or mugwump starts with low charisma, but they mitigate it some by having access to laetitia, for example. That's part of the choice made.

I'm not arguing about bringing them back by the way (but I would still really love that list so I can determine just how much harder this is going to be for me), just irritated at the direction you took there, @Saesh. Yes, race, organisation and guild choices go hand in hand with skills in many cases (balancing the choice) but when the balancing factors of that decision are removed, you make it a decision that likely would have gone differently, and to pretty much say 'tough you chose this' (when we didn't just chose that) is needlessly harsh.

Kaimanahi · January 2015

Incidentally you are allowed to use bardicpresence.

Per the Ascension Rules -

Allowed:
+ Abilities from the Influence and Dramatics skillsets.
+ General healing (bromides, sparkleberry, etc).
+ Tradeskill items (including enchantment, tinkering, etc).
+ Any preparatory or permanent buffs (karma blessings, racial benefits, etc)
     acquired before your debate.
Disallowed:
+ Any activated abilities from skillsets not listed above (roulade, laetitia,
     etc).
+ Passive ego regeneration from skills outside the skillsets allowed above
     (presence, penumbra, etc).
+ Any action or skill that fully refreshes you (refresh, trueheal, etc).
+ Shrine abilities.
+ Beasts.

Lavinya · January 2015

I took presence to mean bardic presence in the disallowed list. I thought we had a more specific list on the forums last year but I can't find it for the life of me.

Elanorwen · January 2015

Lavinya said:

I took presence to mean bardic presence in the disallowed list. I thought we had a more specific list on the forums last year but I can't find it for the life of me.

Bardic presence is a static buff to cha, I thought, not an ego regen boost, so you are fine.

Saesh · January 2015

Lavinya said:

Saesh said:

I've always supported the argument that mechanics shouldn't be put in place to nullify choices made simply because those choices become temporarily inconvenient. There's a degree of wiggle room here regarding the restrictions on buffs during Justice because I understand the need to not turn everything into a min/max race, but ultimately race, organization, and guild are choices you all have made with consequences and perks of varying degrees across the board. Is playing in Mag the "short end of the stick," when it comes to Justice. The argument can certainly be made, as can the argument that Geomancers are better off than Aquamancers (not saying I believe this one way or the other), thus getting the short end of the stick in War. Arguments regarding who has the short end of any particular stick could be made on a seemingly infinite number of topics.

Ultimately, someone is going to have an advantage, be it through race, artifacts, skills, etc. There are many places you can draw the line so that the competition can be normalized, but I believe in drawing that line as conservatively as possible. The line between skills and buffs is sometimes slimmer or more blurry than we give it credit for. A general rule of thumb, for me, is that it's unfair if an unbuffed player can't realistically overcome a buffed player. If an unbuffed player can realistically beat a buffed player, accounting for skill, RNG, and whatever else, I don't see a reason to change it.

Whoah there, I actually find this statement to be quite backward in supporting the banning of certain defs and skills - if we've made choices about which org and guild we play in, we've also made choices about which skills we have access to. I'm a bard, but I'm not allowed to use bardic presence? How does the argument of 'temporarily inconvenience' fit in there?

I understand that disallowing some skills and buffs (like beasts) is an attempt to keep things on fairer footing, but you can't take them away and still wag your finger telling us 'tsk tsk, you made your choice of org and guild' since much of those things removed come from those choices! A Nihilist viscanti or mugwump starts with low charisma, but they mitigate it some by having access to laetitia, for example. That's part of the choice made.

I'm not arguing about bringing them back by the way (but I would still really love that list so I can determine just how much harder this is going to be for me), just irritated at the direction you took there, @Saesh. Yes, race, organisation and guild choices go hand in hand with skills in many cases (balancing the choice) but when the balancing factors of that decision are removed, you make it a decision that likely would have gone differently, and to pretty much say 'tough you chose this' (when we didn't just chose that) is needlessly harsh.

I believe I covered the need/desire to not have every competition turn into a buff contest which is why there are limitations on ego regen. Again, it's a somewhat fine line to walk to find the balance between forcing everyone to debate as 12 charisma humans or a no rules debate free for all. Everyone seems to acknowledge these rules are ultimately beneficial, there are just some that desire to see them taken even further. I'm not saying there isn't some validity to that argument, I'm stating the line has to be drawn somewhere, and that I believe that line is where everyone can realistically compete even if at a disadvantage. Which is where we currently are, in my opinion. Incidentally this also keeps these competitions from turning into endless turtle fights.

Why you take this as some sort of administrative scolding to players who make choices (all of you) is not something I understand. If you chose to play a race that does not perform well in debates so that you could RP a Viscanti or have quicker hexes as a Mugwump, then there are perks and consequences that come with that choice. It's how the game has played out since conception, and acknowledging or pointing that out has nothing to do with finger wagging 'tsk tsk' hooey. I'm not scolding you by telling you this is how the proverbial cookie crumbles.

edit: These rules are not new nor are they a secret, so the argument that they've eliminated or altered your "choice" to any degree is not true. You might not have known them, and that might have altered your choice but the rules themselves are have existed long enough to escape that blame. Though I don't know of anyone choosing orgs, guilds, or races based on very narrow requirements of ego regen.

Marcella · January 2015

No, but you are opening yourself up to arguments "Well, I chose to play in Glomdoring as a Shadowdancer Faeling, why the hell can't I penumbra? It is a perk and consequence of my choice."

Saesh · January 2015

Inevitably, but ego regen has been eliminated across the board for this competition for reasons noted. That is why the hell you can't Penumbra.

I believe that argument has already occurred in previous years, actually.

edit: That's the thing about balance. Someone has to make the objective decision and, by definition in this context, that means some will lose something and some will gain something. Some people don't like losing things, and that's fine, but they aren't honestly interested in balance. The decision still has to be made in the end.

Ssaliss · January 2015

It would be pretty awesome if ego regen could just be disabled for the Justice event. That way we'd still be able to use Penumbra for its charisma effect, and not having to worry about the ego regen part of it (which, frankly, I didn't even know existed before I were told it did, so it can't be a very large regen). It'd also make the rules less complex; you can have whatever defs you want, but the ego regen part of any def won't be effective.

Ieptix · January 2015

Penumbra is a level 1 ego regen, equivalent to a level 1 regen rune.

Marcella · January 2015

THe means, 'what if you just code it to set everyone's ego regens to 0 no matter what the hell they have on, as a property of the Justice room, so people can still use the secondary effects.'

Steingrim · January 2015

Marcella said:

THe means, 'what if you just code it to set everyone's ego regens to 0 no matter what the hell they have on, as a property of the Justice room, so people can still use the secondary effects.'

That's fine, though maybe not so easy to code and you realize it means no demi regen.

Tarkenton · January 2015

So, auto whatever the music box, or dropping shadows, for everyone in the room. Sounds legit.

Steingrim · January 2015

Kelly said:

Incidentally you are allowed to use bardicpresence.

Per the Ascension Rules -

Allowed:
+ Abilities from the Influence and Dramatics skillsets.
+ General healing (bromides, sparkleberry, etc).
+ Tradeskill items (including enchantment, tinkering, etc).
+ Any preparatory or permanent buffs (karma blessings, racial benefits, etc)
     acquired before your debate.
Disallowed:
+ Any activated abilities from skillsets not listed above (roulade, laetitia,
     etc).
+ Passive ego regeneration from skills outside the skillsets allowed above
     (presence, penumbra, etc).
+ Any action or skill that fully refreshes you (refresh, trueheal, etc).
+ Shrine abilities.
+ Beasts.

Activated abilities doesn't seem to have an established ingame or ooc meaning...only some understanding over how its been interpreted in the past. The way the rules are written it really reads as if bardic presence isn't allowed, though we know better.

I still have no idea, given these rules how someone would know Presence is allowed and it does begin to feel like when you show up someone is going to find some other skill that at the last minute will be announced you could have had.

At times I wish the contest was. [OOC: Log out and in. Do not redef. Wait. On my mark begin.] I get why it is not, but bending over backwards to accommodate last minute changes, delayed contest start times (some people have to plan their schedules), or even changing start times because the admin feel they turn out isn't enough (those who do show should have won by default), tend to make the experience unpleasent.

Lavinya · January 2015

So please, list? Are tinkered boxes still allowed? Bard songs? Is bardic presence ok or nok? Don't presume everyone will know the difference in what is allowed and what isn't - I don't!

Steingrim · January 2015

My suggestion to reduce lag. Make soulless cuter!

Starting with Kethuru the Almighty.

Saesh · January 2015

Steingrim said:

Kelly said:

Incidentally you are allowed to use bardicpresence.

Per the Ascension Rules -

Allowed:
+ Abilities from the Influence and Dramatics skillsets.
+ General healing (bromides, sparkleberry, etc).
+ Tradeskill items (including enchantment, tinkering, etc).
+ Any preparatory or permanent buffs (karma blessings, racial benefits, etc)
     acquired before your debate.
Disallowed:
+ Any activated abilities from skillsets not listed above (roulade, laetitia,
     etc).
+ Passive ego regeneration from skills outside the skillsets allowed above
     (presence, penumbra, etc).
+ Any action or skill that fully refreshes you (refresh, trueheal, etc).
+ Shrine abilities.
+ Beasts.

Activated abilities doesn't seem to have an established ingame or ooc meaning...only some understanding over how its been interpreted in the past. The way the rules are written it really reads as if bardic presence isn't allowed, though we know better.

I still have no idea, given these rules how someone would know Presence is allowed and it does begin to feel like when you show up someone is going to find some other skill that at the last minute will be announced you could have had.

At times I wish the contest was. [OOC: Log out and in. Do not redef. Wait. On my mark begin.] I get why it is not, but bending over backwards to accommodate last minute changes, delayed contest start times (some people have to plan their schedules), or even changing start times because the admin feel they turn out isn't enough (those who do show should have won by default), tend to make the experience unpleasent.

The rules are clear if you understand how abilities work. Roulade and Laetitia and functionally identical (aside from the amount of ego they restore) and have nothing in common with bardicpresence. Where as bardicpresence is identical to the beauty karma blessing, which is listed as allowed. If you have to 'activate' it in the middle of a debate for it to have value, it is not allowed. Like Laetitia and Roulade. If you can set it before the debate to gain a benefit (and it does not conflict with the other rules), such as beauty karma and bardicpresence, it is allowed.

You may not know how something works, which is understandable and I am more than happy to answer any questions, but I don't appreciate the implication that the admin haven't made the attempt to be transparent. Not knowing what bardicpresence does does not mean we are going to sneak in rules on you.

Lavinya said:

So please, list? Are tinkered boxes still allowed? Bard songs? Is bardic presence ok or nok? Don't presume everyone will know the difference in what is allowed and what isn't - I don't!

There is no list of every skill allowed and disallowed, as that would be redundant work one of us would have to do. That's what the rules are for! Tinkering is allowed. (+ Tradeskill items (including enchantment, tinkering, etc).) Bardic presence is allowed. ( + Any preparatory or permanent buffs (karma blessings, racial benefits, etc) acquired before your debate.)

You are certainly welcome to ask about any skills you are uncertain off, I will absolutely do my best to answer.

Akyaevin · January 2015

I assume you meant "not allowed" rather than "now allowed" for things activated mid-debate.

Kalnid · January 2015

How do astrology spheres work? Positive lion sphere seems like it'd be a preparatory buff, and negative is, I guess you'd call it a permanent debuff? Lasts like an hour usually. It's an ability that would be activated mid-debate, though. Are buff and debuff spheres counted as separate abilities, or is it just straight out?

Arcanis · January 2015

Steingrim said:

My suggestion to reduce lag. Make soulless cuter!

Starting with Kethuru the Almighty.

I do believe that is near exactly how the walrus in magnagora zoo looks like...

Saesh · January 2015

Whoops, edited!

Ssaliss · January 2015

At least positive spheres are OK. Never really thought about negative ones.

Saesh · January 2015

No aggressive actions. I guess we should add that to the rules.

If you have to declare to do it, you shouldn't do it.

Delphas · January 2015

Many thanks to @Lerad, @Lavinya, @Aerotan, and @Elanorwen for their input. I'm also especially glad @Saesh offered some insight into the matter. We understand these things can be fluid, but one simply cannot make willy-nilly changes to these rules either. If IRE has performed some simulations and is confident all things are fair then I'm feeling better. If, rather than simulations, IRE formed a committee to explore their intuitions regarding the system then we may still be on good ground here since these individuals have technical experience in the matter had.

For what it's worth, @Thoros holds the Seal of Justice. I don't know if he cameo'ed or if the rules were significantly different, but I do assume it's possible I have a shot because I doubt IRE would be running an event this long if it was patently biased. A non-obvious bias may still be a possibility but I guess I just don't have enough experience to make any claim towards that.

Sorry about the emotion in my previous post. I'm not very good at anything else of ``tangible'' value, so Debating is sort of my pet-issue.

Elanorwen · January 2015

Delphas said:

Many thanks to @Lerad, @Lavinya, @Aerotan, and @Elanorwen for their input. I'm also especially glad @Saesh offered some insight into the matter. We understand these things can be fluid, but one simply cannot make willy-nilly changes to these rules either. If IRE has performed some simulations and is confident all things are fair then I'm feeling better. If, rather than simulations, IRE formed a committee to explore their intuitions regarding the system then we may still be on good ground here since these individuals have technical experience in the matter had.

For what it's worth, @Thoros holds the Seal of Justice. I don't know if he cameo'ed or if the rules were significantly different, but I do assume it's possible I have a shot because I doubt IRE would be running an event this long if it was patently biased. A non-obvious bias may still be a possibility but I guess I just don't have enough experience to make any claim towards that.

Sorry about the emotion in my previous post. I'm not very good at anything else of ``tangible'' value, so Debating is sort of my pet-issue.

No harm, no foul, says I. I tend to get a bit emotional more often than not myself.

I'm betting that you have a good shot at it. It will be difficult, but hey... winning with a weak influencing race would be that much more of an ego boost. Good luck.

Aerotan · January 2015

Wish I'd been active enough to actually have something to submit for Beauty this year. I'm crap at the other categories. Categorically.

Elanorwen · January 2015

Aerotan said:

Wish I'd been active enough to actually have something to submit for Beauty this year. I'm crap at the other categories. Categorically.

There's still plenty of time to submit stuff for Beauty.

Delphas · January 2015

Aerotan said:

Wish I'd been active enough to actually have something to submit for Beauty this year. I'm crap at the other categories. Categorically.

There's no time like the present. Beat the rush and get it done today. Some people say ``A good start is half-finished'' but I say ``Get the lead out''. Plenty of time to screw around after the job is done.

Hrmm.. I'm not very good at pep-talks, am I?

Give it a try, @Aerotan. The worst that can happen is you'll make something very nice which everyone will envy even if you don't win.

Lavinya · January 2015

Wait, now we have a contradiction - tinkered items are ok (so goldenbox it is that disrupts enemy ego regen) but I need to activate it, though theoretically I could before the debate. This is what I mean by the rules being unclear. No where did I say admin are deliberately being sneaky and hiding, I am saying that -I- do not find it to be easily understood. I can make some guesses though that bard songs are out (in particular necroballad because it has ego regen) and I'm presuming goldenbox is also out because I'm pretty sure you'd have to declare for that....so saying tinkering items are allowed is UNCLEAR.

I'm not trying to be a pain. I thought when these new rules came out that there was a big list made and added to as it was discussed, but I can't find it. If anyone can, I would love you for it. I can't think of anything worse than presuming you are prepared and turning up to be disqualified because of one defense that had been overlooked and presumed ok. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm not complaining about the contents of the list. I just would really like it listed out so there is no confusion on either side. Is it really that big an ask? I mean, we players could even list up all our skills that affect ego regen in some form and get a clear, definitive 'this is ok, this is not'. Is that such a bad thing?

Aerotan · January 2015

'Activate' here means "is used during the debate in order to affect the outcome". Yes, skills like bardicpresence require you to type in, for instance, BARDICPRESENCE to raise them, but my understanding is that so long as it wouldn't wear off with time, it's not an activated skill. Whereas things like bardic songs, roulade, laetitia, egowhip, etc require you to either upkeep them or hit a command to make them help you.

Tinkered items are tradeskill items, not skills, so wouldn't count as 'activated skills from other skillsets'. I think/

Saesh · January 2015

Lavinya said:

Wait, now we have a contradiction - tinkered items are ok (so goldenbox it is that disrupts enemy ego regen) but I need to activate it, though theoretically I could before the debate. This is what I mean by the rules being unclear. No where did I say admin are deliberately being sneaky and hiding, I am saying that -I- do not find it to be easily understood. I can make some guesses though that bard songs are out (in particular necroballad because it has ego regen) and I'm presuming goldenbox is also out because I'm pretty sure you'd have to declare for that....so saying tinkering items are allowed is UNCLEAR.

I'm not trying to be a pain. I thought when these new rules came out that there was a big list made and added to as it was discussed, but I can't find it. If anyone can, I would love you for it. I can't think of anything worse than presuming you are prepared and turning up to be disqualified because of one defense that had been overlooked and presumed ok. I'm not attacking anyone. I'm not complaining about the contents of the list. I just would really like it listed out so there is no confusion on either side. Is it really that big an ask? I mean, we players could even list up all our skills that affect ego regen in some form and get a clear, definitive 'this is ok, this is not'. Is that such a bad thing?

"Tinkering is allowed," is about as clear as I can make it. You can crank a box without declaring, it does not require a target. I'd have to check to see if the reduction in regen affects without declare as I don't know of the top of my head (shadows don't for mana regen), but that's really here nor there. Don't declare your debate partner, it's a pretty black and white concept. If you are uncertain as to whether an action benefits from a declare or not, test beforehand. I've got to say that there is some degree of personal accountability here regarding knowing how things works if you want to participate. There are a finite number of skills and none have slipped through the cracks to disqualify a person yet.

edit: the short version of this is STOP FREAKING OUT. Justice is, historically, one of the less controversial events and to my knowledge, no one has been disqualified for not understanding the rules. I'm not going to come up with a list because, well, that's redundant work that isn't a productive use of anyone's time. Consult the rules and ask questions if you don't understand a skill and where it falls within the rules. There's a degree of personal responsibility in any event regarding the skills you chose and the events you choose to partake in, but overall we're going to be as transparent and helpful as is reasonably possible (for my part, asking me to go through each skillset to isolate every applicable skill isn't all that reasonable. I ain't getting paid for this). People say they didn't know Penumbra had ego regen, but the AB clearly states ego regeneration is part of the skill. It's not really a big deal if you don't know that off the top of your head, but when entering into an event with clearly defined rules, you need to accept that your entrance is voluntary and ignorance is not an excuse. Ask and you shall receive (an answer), but do your part at the same time.

Ascension 2015

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