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Shedrin · May 2013

I have wondered repeatedly whether aslarans should be nerfed. They have very little downsides for all that they offer on most guilds.

Thoughts?

Synkarin · May 2013

Llandros said:

You have a sub optimal spec race and perfectly viable alternatives?

Welcome to the club.

That faelings, the smallest and weakest of races, do not make top tier facerolling warriors that rule the basin is clearly an injustice. Clearly.

Curse you cruel gods! Curse you!

Heh, the problem is we had that str point and it was taken away, along with reducing the balance bonus, despite not really being all that much better than aslaran to begin with and of course, we're still bitter about it.

(I was also wondering how long it would be before someone popped in with a 'plight of the viscanti' complaint).

As far as aslarans go, I don't really see why they need nerfed, they're pretty solid all around, I don't think they're over the top or anything. Maybe a bit more explanation as to why people think this would change my mind, but I haven't really thought about it a whole lot

Cyndarin · May 2013

You can't nerf aslaran without demonstrating how aslaran warriors are too good. A nerf just to make other races more appealing is not a good idea.

Nihta · May 2013

Llandros said:

You have a sub optimal spec race and perfectly viable alternatives?

Welcome to the club.

That faelings, the smallest and weakest of races, do not make top tier facerolling warriors that rule the basin is clearly an injustice. Clearly.

Curse you cruel gods! Curse you!

The trouble is, I am not sure whether one could say that a faeling is a top tier caster race either. They have less intelligence and constitution than any other city/commune caster spec race, except for viscanti, the balance bonus doesn't do all that much, and I agree with Sidd that I don't really notice a difference with the bigger sips: You get bigger sips from having more con anyway.

We do however get 15 dex... what does dex do for a caster again?

Everiine · May 2013

Anyone else notice that the people who were nerfed because they were too good are now asking someone else to be nerfed because they are too good? Doesn't make the argument invalid, just interesting.

Shaddus · May 2013

Dear random person who seems to make alts primarily to flirt and be annoying;

Please quit being all snuggly with other random "newbies" and distracting them. I'm trying to adopt the person you keep trying to get into the sack, and they don't need the distractions.

Caerulo · May 2013

My email account is now entirely filled with [Lusternia's Forums] X has answered your question: Blah.

I can set up a spam filter for it, but I'd really like an option to turn off email notifications for answers...

Iasmos · May 2013

Xenthos · May 2013

Everiine said:
Anyone else notice that the people who were nerfed because they were too good are now asking someone else to be nerfed because they are too good? Doesn't make the argument invalid, just interesting.

Shadowlords were never "too good," though. They were mathematically competitive with Elfen Lords when they had 18 str and a 15% balance bonus. During the last comprehensive racial overhaul it was decided that mugwumps should be faster, so balance / eq buffs were raised from 5% per to 7% per. This would have drastically sped up faeling warriors, so faelings were dropped to level 2 (14%).

That was the player end of the discussion. Once it went on to the test server Shadowlords had mysteriously lost a point of strength as well. Roark's response to me when I queried him about the matter was that he didn't think that point was a big deal, but alas, it is.

Edit: I also am not asking for any other race to get nerfed, here.

Synkarin · May 2013

Everiine said:

Anyone else notice that the people who were nerfed because they were too good are now asking someone else to be nerfed because they are too good? Doesn't make the argument invalid, just interesting.

I'm confused by how you see this. The only people who mentioned nerfs to aslaran are Rivius and Shedrin. I actually replied that I felt aslaran were solid and didn't need a nerf. I just want that +1 str point back, I don't think Faeling were too good before, I think they were right on the money and then they took that str hit. Anyway, I'm a bit confused by your statement.

Shedrin · May 2013

No opinion on Shadowlord Faelings.

Just gathering opinions on aslarans. Needn't become some factional argument.

Everiine · May 2013

Synkarin said:

Everiine said:

Anyone else notice that the people who were nerfed because they were too good are now asking someone else to be nerfed because they are too good? Doesn't make the argument invalid, just interesting.

I'm confused by how you see this. The only people who mentioned nerfs to aslaran are Rivius and Shedrin. I actually replied that I felt aslaran were solid and didn't need a nerf. I just want that +1 str point back, I don't think Faeling were too good before, I think they were right on the money and then they took that str hit. Anyway, I'm a bit confused by your statement.

Ah, my mistake. I lose track of who's talking and everything sort of merges together.

Iasmos · May 2013

Rivius · May 2013

Everiine's not that big, Iasmos.

Vivet · May 2013

See also: Imperial Merian, from before damage scaling to max INT was noticeably shifted, and the aftermath of said change.

I think a spec race with a speed bonus is always going to be judged with more scrutiny, if only because other guilds will look at their spec races and the limited speed alternatives they have comparatively. To them, what you judge as being an unfair change could be just as well viewed as a shift to parity, especially if that speed bonus is viewed as a "must have".

Iasmos · May 2013

Llandros · May 2013

Nihta said:

Llandros said:

You have a sub optimal spec race and perfectly viable alternatives?

Welcome to the club.

That faelings, the smallest and weakest of races, do not make top tier facerolling warriors that rule the basin is clearly an injustice. Clearly.

Curse you cruel gods! Curse you!

The trouble is, I am not sure whether one could say that a faeling is a top tier caster race either. They have less intelligence and constitution than any other city/commune caster spec race, except for viscanti, the balance bonus doesn't do all that much, and I agree with Sidd that I don't really notice a difference with the bigger sips: You get bigger sips from having more con anyway.

We do however get 15 dex... what does dex do for a caster again?

Dex help you survive against people building wounds on you. Some combination of boosting stance or parry or something like that.

Cyndarin · May 2013

Vivet said:
See also: Imperial Merian, from before damage scaling to max INT was noticeably shifted, and the aftermath of said change.

I think a spec race with a speed bonus is always going to be judged with more scrutiny, if only because other guilds will look at their spec races and the limited speed alternatives they have comparatively. To them, what you judge as being an unfair change could be just as well viewed as a shift to parity, especially if that speed bonus is viewed as a "must have".

I am not sure "ours sucks, so should yours," is a great springboard to jump from.

Xenthos · May 2013

Vivet said:
See also: Imperial Merian, from before damage scaling to max INT was noticeably shifted, and the aftermath of said change.

I think a spec race with a speed bonus is always going to be judged with more scrutiny, if only because other guilds will look at their spec races and the limited speed alternatives they have comparatively. To them, what you judge as being an unfair change could be just as well viewed as a shift to parity, especially if that speed bonus is viewed as a "must have".

Question: What are "limited speed alternatives" in this case where there is a non-spec-race available to all warriors with the same speed bonus and superior stats? While also having access to their specialized non-speed-races (most of which are quite superior to the other available non-spec options), of course. I would say that they have more decent options, not limited ones.

I think you're missing the part where it's being compared to a non-spec-race with the exact same speed bonus, and coming up short.

Vivet · May 2013

I am not sure "ours sucks, so should yours," is a great springboard to jump from.

I agree, but I think it contributes to the explanation for "why did this happen again?" and needs to be considered as a blunt reality that would likely need to be faced in order to establish change.

... I think you're missing the part where it's being compared to a non-spec-race with the exact same speed bonus, and coming up short.

Yes, to a generally available race that is considered the best choice for that archetype by many, which forces people to pick it over their spec race due largely to a bonus that isn't available on any spec races. Except for one.

Lothringen · May 2013

I don't think racial statistics are a meaningful roleplay device (being an orclach with 8 charisma doesn't mean you can't play a charismatic character) and racial bonuses/weakness should be scrapped entirely in favour of class-specific statpacks. Put everyone on equal footing. The game has enough opportunities to buff yourself out the wazoo without pidgeonholing you into a certain optimized race. I understand the dingbats hats were an attempt to mitigate that feeling, but eh.

Unlikely, but also the only way to end the racial disagreements once and for all!

Xenthos · May 2013

Vivet said:

I am not sure "ours sucks, so should yours," is a great springboard to jump from.
I agree, but I think it contributes to the explanation for "why did this happen again?" and needs to be considered as a blunt reality that would likely need to be faced in order to establish change.
... I think you're missing the part where it's being compared to a non-spec-race with the exact same speed bonus, and coming up short.
Yes, to a generally available race that is considered the best choice for that archetype by many, which forces people to pick it over their spec race due largely to a bonus that isn't available on any spec races. Except for one.

Uh, others have the choice to pick the speed bonus or the very nice stat packs that they get with their special. Is it the best? Perhaps, perhaps not, arguments can be made about that; I personally think it's a pretty decent balance as-is.

Regardless of that... I don't get your argument at all. Is your argument that "because this non-spec-race exists, you should select it instead of your spec race that has the same bonus but is otherwise worse"? While one can actually make arguments as to why spec races are / are not better than Aslarans by how much you value the speed bonus, such cannot be done with the "except for one" you are referring to. It can directly be laid side-by-side with the Aslaran race and its deficiencies can thus be observed in clear detail. There is no good debate to be had as to which one is better right now. One is significantly better (and it's not the spec race).

Vivet · May 2013

Xenthos said:

Uh, others have the choice to pick the speed bonus or the very nice stat packs that they get with their special. Is it the best? Perhaps, perhaps not, arguments can be made about that; I personally think it's a pretty decent balance as-is.

Regardless of that... I don't get your argument at all.

Well, that's your problem. I'm not making an argument. I'm providing an explanation for why I think something happened. No where am I defending it, or saying that it is fair, or that it had to happen that way. Just that what I said is the probable cause and motive.

If you don't think that was it, then what reason can you come up with for why that point of STR was removed?

Xenthos · May 2013

Vivet said:

Xenthos said:

Uh, others have the choice to pick the speed bonus or the very nice stat packs that they get with their special. Is it the best? Perhaps, perhaps not, arguments can be made about that; I personally think it's a pretty decent balance as-is.

Regardless of that... I don't get your argument at all.

Well, that's your problem. I'm not making an argument. I'm providing an explanation for why I think something happened. No where am I defending it, or saying that it is fair, or that it had to happen that way. Just that what I said is the probable cause and motive.

If you don't think that was it, then what reason can you come up with for why that point of STR was removed?

I've already posted what his response to the query was... that he didn't think it mattered much. I don't think that there was a huge amount of reasoning to it. Which is, in fact, why it bothers me so much!

Turnus · May 2013

Xenthos said:

Vivet said:

Xenthos said:

Uh, others have the choice to pick the speed bonus or the very nice stat packs that they get with their special. Is it the best? Perhaps, perhaps not, arguments can be made about that; I personally think it's a pretty decent balance as-is.

Regardless of that... I don't get your argument at all.

Well, that's your problem. I'm not making an argument. I'm providing an explanation for why I think something happened. No where am I defending it, or saying that it is fair, or that it had to happen that way. Just that what I said is the probable cause and motive.

If you don't think that was it, then what reason can you come up with for why that point of STR was removed?

I've already posted what his response to the query was... that he didn't think it mattered much. I don't think that there was a huge amount of reasoning to it. Which is, in fact, why it bothers me so much!

Maybe that's the reason, the Admin are trolling are you.

PS: I have nothing constructive to add, and no opinion worth posting.

Cyndarin · May 2013

Well I suspect the discussion beforehand on forums and envoys had a lot to do with it, whether he explicitley said so or not.

Or it was a coincidence. Who knows.

Iasmos · May 2013

Kio · May 2013

Interesting tweets that spur thought-laden discussion are interesting. I always learn something from them.

Alary · May 2013

The balance difference on Aslaran isn't great enough to set it apart from other races. Having played an Aslaran mage myself, and dying a lot, well, it's a good race but it isn't super special. Just my opinion, having played the race. And granted, I wasn't a warrior.

Ciaran · May 2013

Psionics mage isn't going to see the benefits of faster balance really.

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