It needs to be capped off earlier than /10 because otherwise you've taken a walk in the park amount of essence in shrine powers and given yourself UNLIMITED POWER [/palpatine]
Or, the room to grow there at least. Now you have your hardcap, all you have to do is fill it in with all the easy-to-find buffs around, from quests to guildskills to universals. That doesn't seem right to me.
What I'm saying is, the /10 cap should be there. But it shouldn't be found in shrine powers, not even big ones like Armour.
I'm not following what you're trying to say, and it's striking me that you don't understand how the system is working.
If general, easy to find, universals (kirigami, beers etc) can only boost you to 5, then no matter how many you stack, you'll only ever get to tier 5.
It doesn't matter if you have a def that will boost you up to 10 IF you don't have defs that will boost you up to 9. Each def has a max it can boost.
For example Fire resist (the exact numbers are generalizations, not 100% accurate):
if I use kirigami (1/5), amberbeer(1/5) as general buffs, they'll get me to 2. I add tattoo(1/6)/curio(1/6) fireproofing(1/5), I'm at 5. Fireforte(1/8), I'm at 6. I add shrine armour (2/10), I'm now at 8, but if I try to add say Attune (1/7), I'm still going to be at 8, not 9.
The cap isn't your hardcap, it's the skills hardcap, the skills can only boost that high. Everyone always has a hardcap of 10.
Synkarin: Stuff doesn't have to be at a cap of 10 in order to be always useful. If you put guild skills at the cap of 10, and don't give enough guild skills to take you to 10 all on their own, then general buffs still stack with guild buffs without overwhelming them.
To use the current setup as an example, your def list before guild skills might look like: Construct 1/3 Universal Kirigami 1/5 Universal Amber Beer 1/5 Universal Attunement 2/6 Universal
for a total of 5 Universal
Let's say you're a TK Pyromancer doing their buff routine. Add to that: Stoneskin 1/10 Cutting/Blunt Elementshield 1/10 Fire/Cold/Electric Fireproof 2/10 Fire PhantomArmour 1/10 Psychic Mindbar 1/10 Psychic
Which brings you up to 6 Cutting/Blunt/Cold/Electric 7 Psychic 8 Fire 5 Everything Else
due to the way stacking works. But then let's add:
Truefavour: 2/8 Universal
No effect, right? You already had Fire 8, so it does nothing? Wrong! Due to the way buffs stack, Truefavour applies before the guild skills. The order is:
All of your defenses are the same number? Why? Because your guild skills don't stack with anything due to caps. Only Atunement and Truefavours matter once you've gotten something to 5. If you were a bookbinder, literally all of your defenses would be 8 and it wouldn't matter one bit what your guild skills were. That's incredibly lame. But take note: In both cases, the Truefavour is still giving you +2 to everything. At no point in either setup is a truefavour worthless, or even getting diminished gains for a resistance.
Ok, I misread and misunderstood what you were saying.
I never said we should make guildskills 1/5, I said they should be around the 1/8 with specific skills varying depending on the the actual skill (a point you obviously have blown off). In fact, my very first observation with the proposed system made the same concerns you are making currently. I said universal buffs should be at 1/5, general guild skills at 1/8 (those giving around 10dmp) and shrines/TF/demipowers should be at 1/10 so they are always useful. You're just switching around my numbers and my main point against having guild skills have a cap of 10 is that you should have to go beyond your guild to get you up to 10.
Case and point, turn your guild skills to cap at 8 and TF cap at 10 and you get the same exact numbers.
@Iytha's numbers appear to be correct. Buffs are* calculated with the highest maxed skills applied last, always. As far as I can tell, the problem they describe was the fundamental issue with the 5-level-system rehashed at large.
It would help to just consider buffs to a single type, for clarity.
*According to Ieptix, who shared with us the code string that supposedly handles that, if you can make sense of it.
It needs to be capped off earlier than /10 because otherwise you've taken a walk in the park amount of essence in shrine powers and given yourself UNLIMITED POWER [/palpatine]
Or, the room to grow there at least. Now you have your hardcap, all you have to do is fill it in with all the easy-to-find buffs around, from quests to guildskills to universals. That doesn't seem right to me.
What I'm saying is, the /10 cap should be there. But it shouldn't be found in shrine powers, not even big ones like Armour.
I'm not following what you're trying to say, and it's striking me that you don't understand how the system is working.
If general, easy to find, universals (kirigami, beers etc) can only boost you to 5, then no matter how many you stack, you'll only ever get to tier 5.
It doesn't matter if you have a def that will boost you up to 10 IF you don't have defs that will boost you up to 9. Each def has a max it can boost.
For example Fire resist (the exact numbers are generalizations, not 100% accurate):
if I use kirigami (1/5), amberbeer(1/5) as general buffs, they'll get me to 2. I add tattoo(1/6)/curio(1/6) fireproofing(1/5), I'm at 5. Fireforte(1/8), I'm at 6. I add shrine armour (2/10), I'm now at 8, but if I try to add say Attune (1/7), I'm still going to be at 8, not 9.
The cap isn't your hardcap, it's the skills hardcap, the skills can only boost that high. Everyone always has a hardcap of 10.
Actually, you would get 9/10. You've got three 1/5 which brings it to 3/5. Add in the two 1/6 and you get to 5/6. Then you've got 1/7 and 1/8 which brings it to 7/8. Add in 2/10 and you're at 9/10.
It seems that uncapping all (or most) unique abilities and capping all (or most) general abilities produces a system that has the most level variance due to skillchoice, right?
Well, that took a bit more reading to grasp, but @Ssaliss and his equation detailed it out clear enough for me to grasp (-ish), assuming this equation applies to both resistances and buffs.
In short, the sum total of current defenses is not enough to determine actual resistances or buffs. Skill caps limit low-level skill buffs to prevent them from stacking to high-level skill buff effectiveness without actually having a high level skill to bring you up.
Yep, that's pretty much exactly how it works. It doesn't matter how many 1/5 defenses you have, for instance, you'll never get above 5/5. They'll mostly (I assume) be used as stepping stones towards the bigger buffs.
The way that made me understand it is this: Buffs are always applied in order from lowest cap to highest cap. No buff can increase something above its own cap, but later buffs with higher caps can.
Here's a general idea of what I'm considering for guild skills.
Universal
Moon DrawDown
1
4
Moon
2/10
Universal
SpiritFoal Construct
1
3
Serenwilde
1/7
Magical
Resistance
1
3
Athletics
1/8
Magical
Moon Aura
1
3
Moon
1/8
Fire
Fitness
1
3
Athletics
1/8
Cold
Stag Hide
1
3
Stag
3/10
Poison
Snake Totem
1
3
Totems
2/8
Asphyxiation
Blue Chakra
1
3
Low Magic
1/6
You can see the general idea. Basic guild skills (at or less than 20 dmp) will usually give 1/8. Permanent defenses which provided 30 dmp were made 3/10 (a symbol that this guild is supposed to be very resistant to this type of damage). Skills giving 20+ dmp will be 2/10 instead (you're going to need to stack other things with them to get to the full 10 weight, they won't get you there on their own).
The organizational construct is the one that I'm a bit iffy on. I want it to remain useful, and 1/7 is extraordinarily useful in this as it provides a buff that bridges the gap between 6 and 8 (allowing the Moon Serenguard to also max out Fire and Poison with basic defenses, whereas without the 1/7 they'd only be able to max out Magic).
It could also be changed to, as others have suggested, just provide a benefit to a certain type of damages instead of being universal.
Personally, I'm mixed on the construct. As it is now, it's a very weak effect, so if the intent is preserving the same paradigm, lowering the resist is reasonable. It might be interesting (but hard to do) to have it be non-universal, but automatically applied to the lowest two defenses only.
The organizational construct is the one that I'm a bit iffy on. I want it to remain useful, and 1/7 is extraordinarily useful in this as it provides a buff that bridges the gap between 6 and 8 (allowing the Moon Serenguard to also max out Fire and Poison with basic defenses, whereas without the 1/7 they'd only be able to max out Magic).
I don't think it is a big deal. Consider there's some tiny benefit to not having to throw up a defense. You just died and you have that 2.5% or you have an extra def or two so you don't put up a def. Not the end of the world and arguably not even undesirable.
The construct bonus is constant while the construct is up, I believe. You have to pony up some power to start it when the construct is first built, though.
Well, given a lack of any further commentary on the Serenguard, I've filled out the rest of Serenwilde using the same logic as mentioned in that post. The only thing I changed outside of those parameters were Wildecall Fireflies (which I made 1/10 instead of 1/8, given it's an RNG part of a Transcendant skill). I'm willing to keep an open mind on this one, as per comments. As for the rest, please discuss based on the overall parameters instead of skill-by-skill as much as possible.
I think Roark and I are going to have to chat about how Wildecall/fireflies is going to work. The badger effect was omitted somehow, and would coincide with any reasonable reading of fireflies, without damage sourcing being considered. I think he sent an email to Estarra about it for more instructions, and I've been too busy over the weekend to really catch up on it. I'll look over the other stuff in the next day or two.
EDIT: Off the top of my head: be sure to account for shamanism trance buffs needing an 'enhanced version', for when that trance is held in the past tense. As it stands now, the benefit of doing so is to double the dmp provided.
Serenguard and Moondancers need less universal resistances. If they combine:
1/5 Kirigami 1/5 Amber Beer 2/6 Attunement 1/7 Construct Any Two of 1/7 Life Domoth, Ascendant Affinity, DevoutShield, MagicTome or Gnewpie King; Or Just Shrine Protection or Shrine Armour 1/10 Truefavour 2/10 Drawdown
Then they get max resistance in absolutely everything.
I think Roark and I are going to have to chat about how Wildecall/fireflies is going to work. The badger effect was omitted somehow, and would coincide with any reasonable reading of fireflies, without damage sourcing being considered. I think he sent an email to Estarra about it for more instructions, and I've been too busy over the weekend to really catch up on it. I'll look over the other stuff in the next day or two.
EDIT: Off the top of my head: be sure to account for shamanism trance buffs needing an 'enhanced version', for when that trance is held in the past tense. As it stands now, the benefit of doing so is to double the dmp provided.
I will. I've also been thinking about Charms; I think I undervalued them a bit in here, so I'm going to tweak that some more too.
Iytha: I think that's absolutely fine, since right now they would get way more than 30% combining less than that (Drawdown / Nightkiss by themselves, nothing else, are 22%!). This is why I pushed for the cap to be 30% instead of 15%, so that it is closer to what these guilds can currently achieve (while still being a pull-back). Bringing them lower than that would be against the entire point of why I pushed for 30%.
With the way that charms work (2/X where x is the number of appropriate comms used divided by five and times by two), it seems like the most useful spread to the HS would potentially be one of everything except cold because it looks like you can get the benefit from all of them without going above the minimum for each (No cold because it looks like cold could be 10 for WW and 9 for Druidry)
Assuming that racial buffs and maluses are a straight Y/Y or -Y/-Y where Y is the level of the buff/malus, I think my defenses would be as followed
Druidry Total
Estimate
WW Total
Estimate
Blunt
7
21
7
21
Cutting
7
21
4
12
Magical
7
21
6
18
Fire
8
24
5
15
Cold
9
27
10
30
Poison
7
21
8
24
Asphyx
6
18
4
12
Electricity
6
18
6
18
Psychic
5
15
5
15
Excoro
3
9
3
9
Divinus
3
9
3
9
This is with, Kirigami, Attunement, Barkskin, Torc, Staghide, Snake, Blue, Proofs, Frost, Fire, Galvanism, and Nimbus as shared stuff (between ww and druidry)
Twirl Cudgel for Druidry, Fireflies and Evergreen for WW.
And an Ecology charm with 5 for everything bar cold and a fox.
Adding Divinus, Cutting, Excoro resist tattoos with a Magictome (per the current layout) I think it goes to...
Druidry Total
Estimate
WW Total
Estimate
Blunt
8
24
7
21
Cutting
8
24
6
18
Magical
8
24
7
21
Fire
8
24
6
18
Cold
9
27
10
30
Poison
8
24
9
27
Asphyx
6
18
5
15
Electricity
6
18
6
18
Psychic
6
18
6
18
Excoro
5
15
5
15
Divinus
5
15
5
15
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I think Roark and I are going to have to chat about how Wildecall/fireflies is going to work. The badger effect was omitted somehow, and would coincide with any reasonable reading of fireflies, without damage sourcing being considered. I think he sent an email to Estarra about it for more instructions, and I've been too busy over the weekend to really catch up on it. I'll look over the other stuff in the next day or two.
EDIT: Off the top of my head: be sure to account for shamanism trance buffs needing an 'enhanced version', for when that trance is held in the past tense. As it stands now, the benefit of doing so is to double the dmp provided.
I will. I've also been thinking about Charms; I think I undervalued them a bit in here, so I'm going to tweak that some more too.
Iytha: I think that's absolutely fine, since right now they would get way more than 30% combining less than that (Drawdown / Nightkiss by themselves, nothing else, are 22%!). This is why I pushed for the cap to be 30% instead of 15%, so that it is closer to what these guilds can currently achieve (while still being a pull-back). Bringing them lower than that would be against the entire point of why I pushed for 30%.
I had over 40% to most things, and over 50% to fire, physical and magic. I'm cool with the changes.
Wiccans, like everyone else, will need envoy help to counterbalance what we lost but I think it's good!
Now to add some damage resistances to Monks, because monks have next to nothing at present
Wiccans had all the DMP before, was so jealous.
(Still dislike any divine based resistances that effect PvP, PvE is fine)
Is amber and dark beer being changed not to have scaling effects? Is being tipsy the same as suicidal? I think it should probably scale to an extent.
How much is a level planned to be? I had thought 7ish was the max with 5% a level. Are we making defenses up to 50% resistances or is each level being lowered in value?
BTW, Saesh may not know this, but we've adjusted the percent increases per level based on envoys being decimated in the arena by mobs (i.e., the defense stats were too low). They currently are:
Note Levels 6 and 7 are reserved for artifacts. I'm not sure I follow the debate about curios. They give a bonus above what you would normally see in skills. Not sure what's wrong with that! I believe we are going to stay with the system as-is and not rework the code from the ground up at every whim. I believe this definitely addresses creep and outliers. I really don't understand arguments that it doesn't address these issues.
With us moving to a 10-tier system (before artifacts), basically double the level numbers. So tier 2 would be 10% and tier 10 would be 30%.
I will say I was a bit taken aback by "now add some DMP to monks," I was sitting there doing the chart and thinking to myself "Wow, psymet provides so much defense."
Note that tattoos a Monk transcendant in Tattoos will probably provide some extra benefit, but that wasn't on the list of dmp-stuff provided by Roark, which is why you don't see it listed there yet (I'm working off of the list they provided for conversion).
Comments
To use the current setup as an example, your def list before guild skills might look like:
Construct 1/3 Universal
Kirigami 1/5 Universal
Amber Beer 1/5 Universal
Attunement 2/6 Universal
for a total of 5 Universal
Let's say you're a TK Pyromancer doing their buff routine. Add to that:
Stoneskin 1/10 Cutting/Blunt
Elementshield 1/10 Fire/Cold/Electric
Fireproof 2/10 Fire
PhantomArmour 1/10 Psychic
Mindbar 1/10 Psychic
Which brings you up to
6 Cutting/Blunt/Cold/Electric
7 Psychic
8 Fire
5 Everything Else
due to the way stacking works. But then let's add:
Truefavour: 2/8 Universal
No effect, right? You already had Fire 8, so it does nothing? Wrong! Due to the way buffs stack, Truefavour applies before the guild skills. The order is:
Construct 1/3 Universal
Kirigami 1/5 Universal
Amber Beer 1/5 Universal
Attunement 2/6 Universal
Truefavour: 2/8 Universal
Stoneskin 1/10 Cutting/Blunt
Elementshield 1/10 Fire/Cold/Electric
Fireproof 2/10 Fire
PhantomArmour 1/10 Psychic
Mindbar 1/10 Psychic
Bringing you up to
8 Cutting/Blunt/Cold/Electric
9 Psychic
10 Fire
7 Everything Else
Which seems like about where we'd want a pyromancer to be.
Now compare the situation if we make guild skills all be 1/5 and divine favours 2/10:
Construct 1/3 Universal
Kirigami 1/5 Universal
Amber Beer 1/5 Universal
Stoneskin 1/5 Cutting/Blunt
Elementshield 1/5 Fire/Cold/Electric
Fireproof 2/5 Fire
PhantomArmour 1/5 Psychic
Mindbar 1/5 Psychic
Attunement 2/6 Universal
Truefavour: 2/10 Universal
8 Cutting/Blunt/Cold/Electric/Fire/Psychic
7 Everything Else
All of your defenses are the same number? Why? Because your guild skills don't stack with anything due to caps. Only Atunement and Truefavours matter once you've gotten something to 5. If you were a bookbinder, literally all of your defenses would be 8 and it wouldn't matter one bit what your guild skills were. That's incredibly lame. But take note: In both cases, the Truefavour is still giving you +2 to everything. At no point in either setup is a truefavour worthless, or even getting diminished gains for a resistance.
In short, the sum total of current defenses is not enough to determine actual resistances or buffs. Skill caps limit low-level skill buffs to prevent them from stacking to high-level skill buff effectiveness without actually having a high level skill to bring you up.
...pretty sure that's how it works.
Buffs are always applied in order from lowest cap to highest cap.
No buff can increase something above its own cap, but later buffs with higher caps can.
The organizational construct is the one that I'm a bit iffy on. I want it to remain useful, and 1/7 is extraordinarily useful in this as it provides a buff that bridges the gap between 6 and 8 (allowing the Moon Serenguard to also max out Fire and Poison with basic defenses, whereas without the 1/7 they'd only be able to max out Magic).
It could also be changed to, as others have suggested, just provide a benefit to a certain type of damages instead of being universal.
Here's the link again:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1fyo9RnFbKd_zRVicwRu0r5Px_j5a32eFyZv0ubdW2f0/edit?usp=sharing
1/5 Kirigami
1/5 Amber Beer
2/6 Attunement
1/7 Construct
Any Two of 1/7 Life Domoth, Ascendant Affinity, DevoutShield, MagicTome or Gnewpie King; Or Just Shrine Protection or Shrine Armour
1/10 Truefavour
2/10 Drawdown
Then they get max resistance in absolutely everything.
Iytha: I think that's absolutely fine, since right now they would get way more than 30% combining less than that (Drawdown / Nightkiss by themselves, nothing else, are 22%!). This is why I pushed for the cap to be 30% instead of 15%, so that it is closer to what these guilds can currently achieve (while still being a pull-back). Bringing them lower than that would be against the entire point of why I pushed for 30%.
I had over 40% to most things, and over 50% to fire, physical and magic. I'm cool with the changes.
Wiccans, like everyone else, will need envoy help to counterbalance what we lost but I think it's good!
Note that tattoos a Monk transcendant in Tattoos will probably provide some extra benefit, but that wasn't on the list of dmp-stuff provided by Roark, which is why you don't see it listed there yet (I'm working off of the list they provided for conversion).