All but regeneration. Actual healing effects, whether they're passive ticks or active consume/abilities.
And no, we won't be refunding Gnomes, Finks or Cameos.
Well then could we at least have the Gnome and Fink mushroom (that we ate) returned to us (thus resetting the option of having them) so that I could trade it in? Seriously im feeling cheated out of some pretty cool stats..
Think they fall under the Artifact Disclaimer that they are subject to change. Finks and gnomes stats changed into perks, I'm afraid.
Thing is, if the Gnome perks were at all interesting or useful as compared to others, especially when Gnome costs 500 credits to get while the others are free, then I wouldnt mind, but they are so lackluster.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Anyone who bought gnome or fink for stats was completely clueless about how stats work.
Can't argue about artifacts being refunded when they are no longer working versus when their usefulness has diminished. They still do what they're supposed to do.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I am still hoping for changes to cameo. You won't be able to swap for stats, so it lost a lot of value to me really, I can't optimize for the goal.
Lucidian demi+ perk is crazy powerful for any power intensive guild, let's go Guardians/Wiccans/Bards!
Good thing it's gated off behind a 1000 credit artifact, such that only flush players will have such incredibly powerful abilities. Wait, that's not a good thing.
I am still hoping for changes to cameo. You won't be able to swap for stats, so it lost a lot of value to me really, I can't optimize for the goal.
Lucidian demi+ perk is crazy powerful for any power intensive guild, let's go Guardians/Wiccans/Bards!
Good thing it's gated off behind a 1000 credit artifact, such that only flush players will have such incredibly powerful abilities. Wait, that's not a good thing.
This. For 1k credits, you might as well buy powerplex gems.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Breaking news: Disguising contempt/condescension as matter-of-fact is not classy. Does Lusternia really need to make this amount of money for what it offers. More at 12.
EDIT: I can play Star Wars: The Old Republic a lot more competitively for a lot less money.
EDIT 2: I want to support Lusternia, I really do. I really enjoy the game. But the cost of entry and cost of competitiveness is just too high. Reason why I haven't been in many combat situations at all lately. It's just not worth. Hopefully the Overhaul changes this.
EDIT 3: Can Lusternia or IRE really promise me that they'll relax their pricey ways if I invest my time and money into them? E.g. lesson loss for classflexing, more freedom in guild or trade skills, less money on that IRE Elite, lowered price on artifacts...etc etc etc.
I have to agree with this. At some point (one we've probably already passed) it becomes fair to ask if the 'keep up cost' (not even the invest cost), but the cost to even keep up has now passed not only a few hundred a year, but several hundred. It is easy to say, this artifact is 1000cr, but hey, most artifacts are about 100-250, it sounds quite different to say, "New artifact here. Pay $300+ US."
I don't begrudge IRE for attempting to make money, but it does seem like Estarra may be seeing credits somewhat divorced from their cost.
Don't get me wrong, maybe the demi+ artifact is priced exactly where it should be, but there's something to be said for selling 10 widgets, even if at a cheaper price than two or three.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Breaking news: Disguising contempt as matter-of-fact is not classy. Does Lusternia really need to make this amount of money for what it offers. More at 12.
EDIT: I can play Star Wars: The Old Republic a lot more competitively for a lot less money.
EDIT 2: I want to support Lusternia, I really do. I really enjoy the game. But the cost of entry and cost of competitiveness is just too high. Reason why I haven't been in many combat situations at all lately. It's just not worth. Hopefully the Overhaul changes this.
It's not contempt, unlike some people here I don't take things hyper personally nor have a strong personal opinion about internet people. You're both being whineybritches because you aren't getting your way and it's annoying, but if that's contempt to you, honey you need to grow a thicker skin.
This is a niche market, always has been. The rules that apply to WoW and Star Wars do not apply here because you are not looking at millions of monthly subscriptions. There was a really insightful post on the Achaean boards about it I'll have to dig up sometime, but the tl;dr version is you're playing in a community of hundreds, not hundreds of thousands. Lusternia cannot stay afloat with the same price per player that the mega MMOs can.
That being said, the cost of entry really isn't that bad. People just want immediate gratification, to be competitive immediately, and to not have to work at it. I've never been among the most artied people in Lusternia, I still am not all that heavily artied, and the ones I do have I've built up very slowly over nearly a decade. I bought my last 700 credit artifact entirely through in game credits, mostly from guild sales.
I learned how to Pk in a much harsher PK environment and with a lot less, and still managed to be competitive which is how I know all this "it's too hard, it's too much," is nonsense. Lusternia can stand to trim the fat in some areas, absolutely, but the largest hurdle to combat is people not wanting to try. For many years I, without a single artifact and not omnitrans, competed alongside exceedingly artifacted uber warrior gank squads. Many times unsuccessfully, and sometimes shit was OP and had to be changed and was frustrating to deal with, but ultimately I got better because of it and now I can give the big boys like Shuyin and Synkarin a run for their money, and I'm still not nearly as heavily armored in artifacts as they are. Do you know why the Gaudi goon squad would rather take me into a fight instead of you? It's not my 5 artifacts they want, it's because I know wtf I'm doing.
If you want to participate, then learn what you are doing wrong, embrace dying as a part of improving, and stop whining about it.
"Affordable artifacts make more money," is an unsubstantiated claim to fit your argument. How do you know what each artifact takes in each year? Cameos are pretty damn popular at the same pricetag. Cheap artifacts can be purchased with in game credits, thus netting no money. A 500 credit artifact can be bought entirely through guild credits that are generated for free without too much effort. You can even get the 1000 credit artifacts if you work at it long enough. It's all supply and demand, and a business is going to sell things for the price people are willing to pay. If people are willing to fork over 1000 credits, then as far as any business is concerned, it's not too expensive.
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
P.S. The current 1000 credit artifact is going for around $180 if you have a membership. Shop the sales, just like any other business kids.
edit: I'm okay with Shuyin's idea, I even prefer it. I just don't think railing against the admin for running a business, a business you chose to partake in, is particularly appropriate.
Actually, I think the goon squad liked me when I played Maladaari! But beyond that, I can agree that skill makes a huge part. My artifact list isn't that long, no. It's not just artifacts though. It's all the lessons and time invested. When you play a game, what kind of gratification are you looking for if not instant? How long until you start winning? It doesn't take that long to learn the ropes -- at least, it didn't for me. It takes a long ass time to learn to lead and code, but even that is obscured by the massive artifact bloat, and the fact that some people are more privileged in their time and money to make gold for artifacts (or lessons) or just buy credits outright with real money.
This isn't whining, you can stop dismissing arguments like that, thanks. This is concern and the peanut gallery asking "why is Lusternia so much harder to play/more difficult to succeed meaningfully than everything else that would like to label itself a game, and why isn't it as popular (as Achaea, for example)?"
EDIT: I won't lie, I coast on warbling trill and Trolloralaria/Dramaturgy to be a functional combatant. I keep my spending at a minimum that way and maximize my enjoyment. I can influence almost anything I want, and thus gather esteem, which translates into frequent truefavours, which also keeps my combat maximized. I can debate anybody with confidence, and won't shy away from trying to 1v1 someone if the situation allows. I want everyone to be able to have that kind of security in the game without having to pay so much.
EDIT 2: Is Lusternia a business or a game y'all. Any combatant is going to buy that 1000cr artie. It's a necessity to stay on top, just like a pig nose, or a map...
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
Thinly veiled threats to QQ and play Star Wars Online is absolutely whining, but if you want to spin that as a valid line of questioning, more power to you. Thanks.
People who have more time and money to invest in anything are going to be more successful at said thing 9 times out of 10, and creating any system that is not influenced by neither time nor money is going to be boring as all hell. That's literally called life. It's why people who work out 5 times a week and have personal trainers are better at everything remotely athletic than I am. They've invested both the time and the money. Or how I can drink much larger men under the table. I invested both my time and money into becoming a raging but functional alcoholic. Cheers.
Real talk: your question is not a real question. It's a complaint phrased as a question to sound more legitimate. I've played WoW and after months of daily playing I still wasn't remotely competitive to people who had started playing ages ago and had all the raid gear and epic items. I played Eve online and will literally never be at the same level as anyone who started before me because that's just how the game works. These are both enormous and successful MMOs, and EVE, for the record, is hard as balls and labels itself a game. Achaea is more popular because it's the flagship brand of IRE. It will always be more popular because it will always receive the most IRE investment and attention. There is a myriad of context you are just ignoring when asking your "question," which is what makes it kind of obnoxious to answer.
edit: I don't have a pig nose and I'm a total top. (*wink @Lothringen*)
If you can't dig up that context and present a coherent answer to me, then that implies a flawed inner working in Lusternia. Which is justified, since it's literally going through an Overhaul right now. In the end, I think it's just bad taste for you to bash people for being a little outraged at an artie that is so key to both RP and PvP, especially because it's supposed to be the herald of a whole new era of statless races. A $180 or $300 VIP section is a little shitty. Let others vent a bit, man.
Is a game really supposed to be life simulator 2.0 with all its hardships and difficulties or is it a game.
"Affordable artifacts make more money," is an unsubstantiated claim to fit your argument. How do you know what each artifact takes in each year? Cameos are pretty damn popular at the same pricetag. Cheap artifacts can be purchased with in game credits, thus netting no money. A 500 credit artifact can be bought entirely through guild credits that are generated for free without too much effort. You can even get the 1000 credit artifacts if you work at it long enough. It's all supply and demand, and a business is going to sell things for the price people are willing to pay. If people are willing to fork over 1000 credits, then as far as any business is concerned, it's not too expensive.
Just because someone is willing to fork over X amount of credits, doesn't mean its not too expensive. The artifact could be 10K credits and there would be someone who would pay it just to have the advantage that it gives. What someone is willing to pay doesn't make an item 'not too expensive'
P.S. Upon further review, I don't think 6 weight is particularly fair for an awesome power (certainly more awesome than second trade), but you get the idea. We can work with it.
By the same logic, why is it offensive for us to express our feelings about others expressions?
I'm more putoff by the 'so and so does it' comparisons than the actual complaints because they're pretty much 100% without merit due to the underlying differences in mechanics in other games. Some of which I pointed out earlier.
Another example, I've got the distinct feeling that artifacts are much more required in Achaea (though I maybe just didn't give it enough effort) than here, I can tell you that the raiding is much more intense (like happening constantly) and some how, it's still the most popular game. Maybe we should be bigger jerks and raid more often like the old days when our PK population was much more booming....
Thinly veiled threats to QQ and play Star Wars Online is absolutely whining, but if you want to spin that as a valid line of questioning, more power to you. Thanks.
People who have more time and money to invest in anything are going to be more successful at said thing 9 times out of 10, and creating any system that is not influenced by neither time nor money is going to be boring as all hell. That's literally called life. It's why people who work out 5 times a week and have personal trainers
Speaking of personal trainers, you and @Synkarin compete for toughest coaches in this freaking game.
YOU GOTTA GO 110% IN THIS TEXT GAME ELSE YOU'RE A SCRUB IF YOU'RE NOT UTILIZING EVERY E-MUSCLE I'M GONNA PUT YOU IN THE GROUND I WANT 10000 PUSHUPS NO TRIGGERS NO ALIASES PUT YOUR ARTIFACTS DOWN YOU LAZY BUTTS I WANT HIGHLIGHTS ON EVERY TIMED INSTAKILL I WANT TUMBLES ON THE DOUBLE WHY DIDN'T YOU GET OUT OF THAT ROOM FULL OF 10 PEOPLE WHERE'S YOUR FIRE RESISTANCE CURIO I WANT TATTOOS ALL OVER YOUR BODY YOU FILTHY WORM.
Yeah, I'm a pretty firm believer that you got to put the effort in to be successful. Got to learn to deal with things rather than just run and complain.
By the same logic, why is it offensive for us to express our feelings about others expressions?
Personally, a lot of the arguments seem to be about questioning or outright attacking a person instead of the arguments expressed. There's absolutely room to argue that this new artifact isn't too expensive for what it provides, but when that is responded by calling it 'whining', it is dismissive and non-productive imo. Of course, I have biases towards one side so that's gonna sway my perceptions here.
By the same logic, why is it offensive for us to express our feelings about others expressions?
Aside from the minefield of how many people on these forums express their feelings about others expression?
It's a pretty messy ground, but telling people that they should be able to pay more money is kinda crappy. (it's not necessarily what's intended but what it can feel like) And doesn't really respect that the people playing this game can come from a wide variety of life experiences.
Not everyone has money to just throw at their problems, not everyone has time to grind so they can buy credits from other players in game.
But often I guess, I feel that the "counter-expressions" don't feel... empathetic towards this.
Also kinda confused about why people think that reducing costs won't increase purchases. This is literally how other games function, even other ire's. Rather than charging a smaller group of people large sums of money for perks, you charge a large number of people a smaller sum.
The pendant right now represents potentially three (fortnightly) pays of saving for me if nothing goes wrong (i.e, I don't get sick, I don't have anything else that comes up, etc, etc). That's a lot, it's also a kinda embarrassing thing to talk about. Halving it's cost pushes that to two pays, maybe one at a stretch. This makes it immediately more likely that I would buy it.
The other issue I guess, is that it's kinda concerning that we keep getting high priced artifacts coming out, especially when they're not equivalently priced to similar artifacts in other games (not these particular ones necessarily, but others that have come up in the past year or two)
I am not opposed to the "1000 credit arty powers", I am opposed to the power itself. It is far more combat influential than many of the others. I am opposed because it will cause it's own outliers, which the overhaul was meant to deal with. You can buy max artys, I can still kill you, its an edge, not a huge edge. Getting power back noticeably faster can result in things that are otherwise prevented by the feat system. I would not mind this if done outside PvP or something, but it has considerable potential for burst classes to pull off some extra things.
Artys should cost credits, this is part of how the bills are paid, but I always liked that Lusternia was more a matter of "pay for perk" not "pay to win". Once you cross a line that breaks things, it has gone too far. My concern is to address this, not go into some huge rant against capitalism or anything.
2
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited June 2015
edit: @Saran Absolutely no one said any of that, or anything close to it and it's pretty uncool that you just took it there. Not cool at all.
For the record, just to dispel the magical illusion of Achaea's pricing:
Sash of Caymus: 2500 credits (+3 intelligence)
Logosian Ring: 2000 credits (increases health sip by 30%)
Lupine Bow 22% faster 1000 credits
Shooting Addon +500 credits
Soulpiercer 63 180 246 1600 credits (you need two of these)
I'm not really sorry, for me that's often what it is about.
It's really frustrating to hear people argue that things are fine because some people can afford them, that's just really crappy reasoning. I've dropped a lot of money into this game and did buy the cameo because it was nice and worth it when I bought it. It's now not quite as nice, It's unlikely that I'd ever really use it again unless I switch into human for an xp bonus to get to demigod and then switch back, as opposed to previously where I would switch regularly based on what I felt like doing on the day.
But the price is fine because someone will still pay for it?
For another comparison...
Multiclassing in Midkemia costs 75 lessons and takes an hour. The artifacts speed this up and remove the lesson cost, orbs cost 250/500/1000. This should also save your stats for each class from memory.
In imperian it appears to be free, just takes time learning from a tutor. no apparent artifacts to influence it.
Aetolia has long cooldowns to limit it, 10 minutes need to pass since your last aggressive action, and you can only do it once every 12 hours but you can spend thirty lessons to reset it (plus ten for each additional reset in a weave). The artifacts that seem to interact with this are a 1000 credit version of the cameo that lets you change race once a month as well as whenever you change class, and a lesser version that just lets you change your statpack when you change class.
Compare that to the diadem or even the basic classflexing functionality?
Comments
Thing is, if the Gnome perks were at all interesting or useful as compared to others, especially when Gnome costs 500 credits to get while the others are free, then I wouldnt mind, but they are so lackluster.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
That way, the artie saves the rich some essence and weight while the poor peasants are still able to take advantage.
@Shuyin's idea is a good one.
EDIT: I can play Star Wars: The Old Republic a lot more competitively for a lot less money.
EDIT 2: I want to support Lusternia, I really do. I really enjoy the game. But the cost of entry and cost of competitiveness is just too high. Reason why I haven't been in many combat situations at all lately. It's just not worth. Hopefully the Overhaul changes this.
EDIT 3: Can Lusternia or IRE really promise me that they'll relax their pricey ways if I invest my time and money into them? E.g. lesson loss for classflexing, more freedom in guild or trade skills, less money on that IRE Elite, lowered price on artifacts...etc etc etc.
I don't begrudge IRE for attempting to make money, but it does seem like Estarra may be seeing credits somewhat divorced from their cost.
Don't get me wrong, maybe the demi+ artifact is priced exactly where it should be, but there's something to be said for selling 10 widgets, even if at a cheaper price than two or three.
This isn't whining, you can stop dismissing arguments like that, thanks. This is concern and the peanut gallery asking "why is Lusternia so much harder to play/more difficult to succeed meaningfully than everything else that would like to label itself a game, and why isn't it as popular (as Achaea, for example)?"
EDIT: I won't lie, I coast on warbling trill and Trolloralaria/Dramaturgy to be a functional combatant. I keep my spending at a minimum that way and maximize my enjoyment. I can influence almost anything I want, and thus gather esteem, which translates into frequent truefavours, which also keeps my combat maximized. I can debate anybody with confidence, and won't shy away from trying to 1v1 someone if the situation allows. I want everyone to be able to have that kind of security in the game without having to pay so much.
EDIT 2: Is Lusternia a business or a game y'all. Any combatant is going to buy that 1000cr artie. It's a necessity to stay on top, just like a pig nose, or a map...
Is a game really supposed to be life simulator 2.0 with all its hardships and difficulties or is it a game.
Just because someone is willing to fork over X amount of credits, doesn't mean its not too expensive. The artifact could be 10K credits and there would be someone who would pay it just to have the advantage that it gives. What someone is willing to pay doesn't make an item 'not too expensive'
YOU GOTTA GO 110% IN THIS TEXT GAME ELSE YOU'RE A SCRUB IF YOU'RE NOT UTILIZING EVERY E-MUSCLE I'M GONNA PUT YOU IN THE GROUND I WANT 10000 PUSHUPS NO TRIGGERS NO ALIASES PUT YOUR ARTIFACTS DOWN YOU LAZY BUTTS I WANT HIGHLIGHTS ON EVERY TIMED INSTAKILL I WANT TUMBLES ON THE DOUBLE WHY DIDN'T YOU GET OUT OF THAT ROOM FULL OF 10 PEOPLE WHERE'S YOUR FIRE RESISTANCE CURIO I WANT TATTOOS ALL OVER YOUR BODY YOU FILTHY WORM.
Personally, a lot of the arguments seem to be about questioning or outright attacking a person instead of the arguments expressed. There's absolutely room to argue that this new artifact isn't too expensive for what it provides, but when that is responded by calling it 'whining', it is dismissive and non-productive imo. Of course, I have biases towards one side so that's gonna sway my perceptions here.
Aside from the minefield of how many people on these forums express their feelings about others expression?
It's a pretty messy ground, but telling people that they should be able to pay more money is kinda crappy. (it's not necessarily what's intended but what it can feel like) And doesn't really respect that the people playing this game can come from a wide variety of life experiences.
Not everyone has money to just throw at their problems, not everyone has time to grind so they can buy credits from other players in game.
But often I guess, I feel that the "counter-expressions" don't feel... empathetic towards this.
Also kinda confused about why people think that reducing costs won't increase purchases. This is literally how other games function, even other ire's. Rather than charging a smaller group of people large sums of money for perks, you charge a large number of people a smaller sum.
The pendant right now represents potentially three (fortnightly) pays of saving for me if nothing goes wrong (i.e, I don't get sick, I don't have anything else that comes up, etc, etc). That's a lot, it's also a kinda embarrassing thing to talk about. Halving it's cost pushes that to two pays, maybe one at a stretch. This makes it immediately more likely that I would buy it.
The other issue I guess, is that it's kinda concerning that we keep getting high priced artifacts coming out, especially when they're not equivalently priced to similar artifacts in other games (not these particular ones necessarily, but others that have come up in the past year or two)
It's really frustrating to hear people argue that things are fine because some people can afford them, that's just really crappy reasoning.
I've dropped a lot of money into this game and did buy the cameo because it was nice and worth it when I bought it. It's now not quite as nice, It's unlikely that I'd ever really use it again unless I switch into human for an xp bonus to get to demigod and then switch back, as opposed to previously where I would switch regularly based on what I felt like doing on the day.
But the price is fine because someone will still pay for it?
For another comparison...
Multiclassing in Midkemia costs 75 lessons and takes an hour. The artifacts speed this up and remove the lesson cost, orbs cost 250/500/1000. This should also save your stats for each class from memory.
In imperian it appears to be free, just takes time learning from a tutor. no apparent artifacts to influence it.
Aetolia has long cooldowns to limit it, 10 minutes need to pass since your last aggressive action, and you can only do it once every 12 hours but you can spend thirty lessons to reset it (plus ten for each additional reset in a weave). The artifacts that seem to interact with this are a 1000 credit version of the cameo that lets you change race once a month as well as whenever you change class, and a lesser version that just lets you change your statpack when you change class.
Compare that to the diadem or even the basic classflexing functionality?