Credit Market

Malayn · August 2015

Earlier today, the unthinkable happened: Credit market was empty.

Now the price (at time of posting) is 30K per credit.

I know the position of administration (and quite possibly IRE) is to not interfere in the market, but I have 0 things I can tell novices who want to get a start. We want to simplify combat, but we still have skills in every skillset you need for combat, and we just do not appear to have the economy to sustain that. Is it at all possible to have an Admin set credit level that credits are always available at? This would help normalize the market while also preventing speculation.

I am up for other ideas, and I know it is a long shot, but I do not know how often the market is looked at by the pantheon, so thought I would make a point of making it known.

Ayisdra · August 2015

As someone who's only real gold income is the credit market, seeing the market like this is a good for thing to me.

I don't think the admin should be setting anything, it will only serve to lower the cost of credits (something that is bad for people like me)

Alic · August 2015

I personally love seeing the credits get jacked up, it's nice to make quicker cash that way.

On the other hand I do feel bad for the people who don't have disposable income who need credits to learn skills.

Malayn · August 2015

Removed the comment because neither person is speculating, just not phrased that way.

EDIT: Also note, some people have historically jacked the market because they had too much gold. Spending 5 million to raise prices several thousand was in their reach and they were bored. This is not a single person, and we have seen large scale manipulation of prices because people wanted gold. This should not be a thing, as this is the first metric many players may look at in a new game... what is the cost to play (and the cost to play is now 10 times what it was when I started).

Alic · August 2015

I am not an Ayisdra alt, rude.

Ayisdra · August 2015

Malarious said:

The irony here, is you two are the exact people (more so Ayisdra), that cause these problems to begin with.

Speculating is when you buy something to resell it slightly higher. Buy a credit at 16K cause it is "cheap" mark it up to 18K. Next person does the same thing and suddenly prices skyrocket.

You are the very embodiment of why there were previous calls for making a bound version of market.

With so many ways to make gold, making it harder to get credits is the cowards way. I would like to hear from people who do not make money on the market, rather than the people who want prices ever higher to make a few sovereigns...........

I do not buy and resell. All my credits are from other ways (city, direct buying from the site, promos, etc), not buying from the market. There may be be many ways to mak gold, but as someone who doesn't know about those ways*, the credit market is my only true method of getting gold.

*The only place I know that gives somewhat decent gold is Lirangsha. I am not counting maps, which in high amounts can give decent gold, because I don't have them and can't be bothered to buy other pieces to trade for map ones

Malayn · August 2015

I misunderstood and will adjust my prior post then to reflect this.

When you have a novice and they say "Ooo I want to be able to do that" and they ask you what that takes....... I can tell them exact credits..... and then they look at market and things are downhill. I have had a number of players from other IREs ask me about combat, look at market, and say it was not worth the time trying to bash for that long to try to possibly, maybe, get into a game.

Our market is an active deterrent of new players and cross players, I am obviously going to want lower credits prices, but it does not change that the ability to bash your way up is far far harder now than it used to be, and we have a lot less people nowadays.

Ayisdra · August 2015

And you say having a high credit market is a problem, I disagree.

When I as a newbie back when credits were about 5-7K, I never used it. Nowadays there is many ways for a novice to get credits without having to use the market. Most orgs (I can only speak for Glom and Hallifax) have decent programs to get credits for doing library/stage writing. Some guilds may even add to this reward with their own. If you can't write and are just a fighter, and your org doesn't offer such rewards, talk with your leaders and see if some reward system can be made in place. Short of that, I believe most places that don't have a reward system will conduct credit sales at a much cheaper price.

I think we have a difference in understanding of what the credit market should be for. It appears that the market in part is for newbies to get credits for lessons, to you. To me, the credit market is for people to make gold off of their credits.

Edit: I do not disagree that the market is a deterrent for new players, however, you can't make everything newbie friendly.

Zeleni · August 2015

I don't buy credits here because they're too insanely priced. I bash hard to get enough gold to buy like 2. I don't even check anymore, just use my gold on other stuff.

Shaddus · August 2015

Orgs have credit sales. If they're sitting on mass credits and aren't using them for sales upon occasion to help org members, that's something that should be addressed. The market is fine as-is.

Aerotan · August 2015

I'd like to chime in as someone whose first few characters were far enough back to know the glory that was reasonable credits.

I have to agree with Malarious' assessment that for new players, seeing only a few credits at prices that should read 'First-born son' and 'Right arm' would have had me going somewhere else to have fun. Somewhere I could actually make progress without spending hundreds of dollars out-of-game for the privilege. The starter lesson packages are amazing, but everything else is incredibly incremental and slow once a character is past a certain level. And with more and more new skills and toys that only the big boys and girls can play with, the gulf between novicehood and meaningful contributions is getting wider.

For comparison, it generally took me a few hours of level-appropriate work for Torre to purchase 5 credits at market price, which is enough to actually see progress for most cases. I could reliably earn enough to build up skills with Syridean and Tyrni without purchasing OOC credits, which let me spend those OOC credits on toys and fun things like a cartel or a tradeskill. On Usa, I only got my tradeskill and Influencing transcended by ignoring one of my guild skills, and getting credits from other players, in addition to buying a 2000 lesson package from the first promotion that offered them (I had actually only made the character a day or so before). My current secret alt? I haven't bought OOC credits or lessons at all, as an experiment, and once I can get him into a copy of m&m I'll give a more detailed report on how far he can get with no outside funding, but it looks pretty grim.

Alic · August 2015

Lusternia is a doomsday, we frequently almost get eaten by Soulless, things are hard to come by!

See, everything is justified.

Enyalida · August 2015

Ayisdra said:

As someone who's only real gold income is the credit market, seeing the market like this is a good for thing to me.

I don't think the admin should be setting anything, it will only serve to lower the cost of credits (something that is bad for people like me)

What do you use gold to buy, besides credits? That's really my question, if the cost/benefit here is more credits for more people or more gold for more people... I think we should go for more available and cheap credits. Outside of the credit market, the vast majority of gold is worthless.

Ayisdra · August 2015

Enyalida said:

Ayisdra said:

As someone who's only real gold income is the credit market, seeing the market like this is a good for thing to me.

I don't think the admin should be setting anything, it will only serve to lower the cost of credits (something that is bad for people like me)

What do you use gold to buy, besides credits? That's really my question, if the cost/benefit here is more credits for more people or more gold for more people... I think we should go for more available and cheap credits. Outside of the credit market, the vast majority of gold is worthless.

Right now, the only thing I really use my gold in (which for the sake of transparency is at 2.1 million gold) is esteem. Besides that, the last big purchase I got was tattoo cartel.

At one end, I understand the need for cheaper credits. It means more lessons and people buying artifacts. But at the other, that can only last so long for those who relay on the credit market as their gold income with there being bigger ticket times (cartels, minor one-off things that cost gold such as design permits, being able to use a seal, etc) that people may want.

Enyalida · August 2015

The general problem I have with that is that gold is easy to come by and requires no out of character investment, but everything depends on having credits including getting gold or esteem. The need for credits touches everyone and almost every aspect of the game, while the need for gold (beyond a certain amount easily gotten, needed for supplies) touches only a very few people who want to engage in certain parts of the game.

Sedanas · August 2015

As a new player, I must say the high prices of market credits has definitely kept me from buying any ._. Many guilds also do not have credit sales, such as the ur'Guard (For whatever reason) so finding credits is not easy. The only way I've ever come across any was through my artwork or people's generosity, it's never really been through IG work, since I've both written books as well as participated in plays.

If anything, we should allow people who have played under a certain amount of IG time access to an infinite Bound Credit system that is forever at a fixed price. Sure they're bound, but at that process of noviceness you really need lessons far more than you need profit from credits. Just my two cents.

Enyalida · August 2015

Guilds that have lower population or a slow pace of changes/improvements tend to have fewer credit sales. Guilds get credits from purchases made by guildmembers, and guilds with few people or slow changes have little use for the gold and may only do credit sales to push credits to their members.

Ayisdra · August 2015

Enyalida said:

The general problem I have with that is that gold is easy to come by and requires no out of character investment, but everything depends on having credits including getting gold or esteem. The need for credits touches everyone and almost every aspect of the game, while the need for gold (beyond a certain amount easily gotten, needed for supplies) touches only a very few people who want to engage in certain parts of the game.

I know I am doing something wrong when, after about 8 years of playing, that any sort of hunting/influencing barely gets me about 40K gold at a time. More so when I hear about others able to get well into the 100K ish range.

Sedanas said:

As a new player, I must say the high prices of market credits has definitely kept me from buying any ._. Many guilds also do not have credit sales, such as the ur'Guard (For whatever reason) so finding credits is not easy. The only way I've ever come across any was through my artwork or people's generosity, it's never really been through IG work, since I've both written books as well as participated in plays.

Assuming you published the work in the org library/stage, and your org does have a reward system, the Librarian (or Minister of Cultural Affairs) should be the one reporting to the CL to give you credits if what you did qualified (and it has passed peer review in the case of library works).

Alic · August 2015

Sedanas said:

If anything, we should allow people who have played under a certain amount of IG time access to an infinite Bound Credit system that is forever at a fixed price.

Only if I get to buy from this for a short time, I would love this as a newbie.

Lavinya · August 2015

I don't like guild or org credit sales. I much prefer to see them handed out liberally for free for participation and contribution.

Prices naturally drop when people buy more credits. This month, I imagine that there have been more purchases of crates and fewer credits bought, meaning there are less people with excess to throw up on the market. The more people selling, the lower prices drop as people undercut each other. It's a natural fluctuation.

Greed is also natural. People want to get the most they can for their goods, so they will list them at the highest price they can that will still attract buyers.

I love this idea to sell fixed price bound credits to people under say level 50 with certain stipulations or link it to time played to prevent rampant abuse.

Rivius · August 2015

Heh. In my opinion, it all stems from the broken economy. That's probably the next thing in big need of an overhaul.

Gabriella · August 2015

I've always thought it was a combination of the two - the massive gold availability in the game (depending on who you are) and the fact that the RL economy in several areas (hi, USA!), has been kind of crappy. That's really when I noticed that prices started to skyrocket. Not to mention, I remember being a novice and thinking that 6000 for one credit was a crap ton to pay. I miss those days now. The only reason I'm ever able to buy credits over the market is because I have a very generous in game husband who gave me a few million gold that I kept in a bank for use when I need credits. The rest of the time, I shower my in game family with gold, as well as novices who need it, because I remember what it's like to not have gold, and I still have a hard time finding it myself.

It can be really hard when you're not sure where to go, what places earn the most gold, and how to get to these places, especially when you're first starting out. I've always said I had a poor sense of direction, and this is very true. I've been playing Lusternia for years, and I still haven't explored more than maybe HALF - even less than that - of the available places there are in the world.

I love the idea of the fixed credit system. Or maybe, increasing the amount of credits that you get from levelling. Or more frequent drops - instead of say, at every 5 or 10 levels where you get the massive credit load, you get it every two or three. Obviously this would need some sort of figuring in terms of how much is too much, etc, but I think it might go a long way with novices, as well as people that are trying out new guilds, that sort of thing. And having it be bound credits helps keep you from abusing the system.

Ciaran · August 2015

@Rivius

What do you think is the underlying flaw in the Lusternia economic system? What would a functional economic system look like? What prices would change?

Aeldra · August 2015

I just wanted to chime in and say that as a young character the skyrocketing of the credit system is a bit frustrating. Having to grind yourself for two hours to not even be able to afford a single credit and seeing that you'll be needing a few hundred for them to cover the bare minimum of your lessons is ... frustrating. The only way I could actually achieve some advancement lately was to some very generous family members.

I don't mind if it's charging a price around the 25k, still a lot of grind involved, but at least somewhere doable. But 65k ? That for me at least means about three hours grind per credit, depending on how much I can rely on family members :-(

Steingrim · August 2015

Aeldra said:

I don't mind if it's charging a price around the 25k, still a lot of grind involved, but at least somewhere doable. But 65k ? That for me at least means about three hours grind per credit, depending on how much I can rely on family members :-(

Aeldra, assume for now the 65k price was a short term aberration. The worse the credit market has been for any significant duration has been about 30k.

Steingrim · August 2015

This is the credit market from Achaea.

Credits currently available for purchase:
      31 credits at 6300 gold per credit.
      63 credits at 6319 gold per credit.
     283 credits at 6320 gold per credit.
      75 credits at 6350 gold per credit.
      10 credits at 6379 gold per credit.
      30 credits at 6390 gold per credit.
     371 credits at 6499 gold per credit.
      15 credits at 6500 gold per credit.
     170 credits at 6600 gold per credit.
     298 credits at 6700 gold per credit.
(7 offers with higher prices have not been shown.)
Total credits for sale: 1346 shown (1705 total) (Average sale price: 6224)
Use CREDITS BUY <number> AT <max gold per credit> to purchase.

One of the issues that comes with Lusternia having a higher credit market is it tends to discourage players from other IRE games from playing here. Not all, but some. Why join a game when clearly you're going to work harder.

High credit prices lesson the value of coin spins, curio rubs, and presents as both gold and the trade in value of goods are all worth relatively considerably much less here.

The introduction of 'additional currencies' of dingbats, curios, goop, and wondercrystals undermines the credit market by draining without adding much back to the pool of credits.

Caps aren't necessarily a bad thing. A ceiling still provides room and incentive for players to use the market. Having a potion seller in Achaea or Lusternia didn't run out concoctionists or alchemists, instead it just meant that those individuals had to either provide better service or prices.

Pejat · August 2015

=Short Version=

Skip to the solutions at the very bottom.

=Long Version=

I have a degree in physics, I have never had any education in economics whatsoever, therefore I would like to speak authoritatively on economics. Because arrogance. Consider the pool of gold in Lusternia, and look at three features of it: the input – all the gold that gets created from nothing and is added to the big Lusternia pool, the recirculation – all the gold that gets traded between lusternians, but in no way changes the amount of gold inside Lusternia, and the output – the actions that delete gold from the world of Lusternia.

Some Inputs

=========

Hunting

Begging

Questing

[Just playing the game. Players often do this.]

Map Hunting

Wheel Spins

Some Recirculation

==============

The Credit Market

Buying items from the aetherplex

Buying items from city/commune shops

Hiring a tattoo artist, etc

[Participating in the social aspect of the economy. Again, rather common.]

Some Outputs

==========

Building a manse

Building an aethership

Buying from trader bob

Upgrading your (city/commune) shop/guild hall/etc

Banks (who uses banks? Me ._.)

A player stops playing with gold in their pockets

[These actions often take group effort and thus are much rarer.]

All of the listed outputs are indirect stabilizations of the credit market. The outputs do not rise and fall with the economy, they are always fixed and they always delete the gold. Manse rooms? 150,000 gold. Longer lasting vials pre-filled with a potion? 400 gold. Want to make your tree house a dragon-slaying space ship? 250,000 gold.

Unfortunately, what we need to keep in mind is that the input has been going since the very start of Lusternia. It keeps piling up without any decay rate. The output needs to keep pace or inflation will hurt the credit market. Looking at the input vs the output, I really don't think it is keeping pace.

Player Solutions

Keep investing in the creative aspects of this game that the admin has already provided you, such as improving your guild hall with gold.

Admin Solutions

Keep creating awesome gold sinks such as aetherships. We all accept they will come with fun credit sinks like docks and wandering zombies. If you create enough enticing gold sinks, people who don't want to hunt all day for gold will buy credits any ways just to get gold, perhaps giving credits to the eager novices who will gladly hunt gold for them.

Gold auctions. Another great way to shake all that excess gold out of the players.

Syrennia · August 2015

Comparing IRE games don't really work out all that well. 6300 gold in Achaea is not equivalent to 6300 gold in Lusternia. It's equivalent to about 15-16000g in Lusternia, in terms of time/ease of obtaining gold.

All I'm gonna say on that (not saying Lusternia market is fine, just saying people need to stop comparing gold generation)

Ciaran · August 2015

Yeah, Lusternia's economy is wildly basic, so it should be quite easy to manipulate.

My suggestion would be to allow certain artifacts to be rented with gold. Excluding pliers, cameo, doctoral cord, etc. Rents allow the game to get gold out of the system, without adding any permanent wealth. On top of that, it would encourage people to purchase more artis with credits after feeling their absence. Correct pricing would be challenging, but easy to set high, and bring down until there are some consumers.

The added benefit would be for arti poor players to have a chance during big events such as Ascension. I think everyone would love that.

Xenthos · August 2015

A couple of things.

1) Yes, the alternate forms of "currency" out there definitely do limit the number of credits available. When people are buying wondercrystals, genie crates, dingbats, aethergoop, etc. they are not buying credits, and with reduced credit supply the price goes up drastically.
2) Those 65k credits are not really an "aberration," I tend to put them up when I see that the market is empty so that it at least has something on it. I've never sold one at that price, and I never expect to. I'd kind of be annoyed if I did, I do not need / want the gold, it's more of a "I don't like seeing the market barren" kind of thing, is all!

(And 65k is the maximum cap, presently)

Aeldra · August 2015

@xenthos I appreciate the thought you put into that.

I don't have enough grasp of Lusternia's economics as of yet to determine why the credit value is where it currently is. The rough estimate I have in my head to keep me motivated would be about 1 credit / hour invested. Anything above that I would say will eventually keep me from investing money into the credit market, as I'd rather spent my time otherwise then.

Maybe there's a breaking point where suddenly I will have a lot more money then I currently make, or where making money becomes natural / not feeling grindy. If any of those happens, well I would reconsider then.

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