I saw that; what I am saying is that that is not a fair tradeoff, since it gives up the greatest benefit and keeps all the other comparative negatives. It widens the balance gap between the two. If you are going to remove the power generation, don't half-arse it. Just go the whole way and make them mirrors.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
MODERATORS PLEASE. Unless he's listing Shuyin's failures as an envoy, targeting players is unacceptable. Selective off topic flagging war commence!
Sarcasm aside, as has been thoroughly discussed here and elsewhere, the context of the entire statue vs totem discussion is extensive. Even if statues and totems are made to be perfect copies of one another, that still leaves Communes at a defensive disadvantage to Cities for several reasons. Guard choke points, specifically, exist in cities where they do not exist in Communes. Just making them not choppable and not generate power just makes them crappy statues. Shafting commune power generation to address a specific issue is not the correct direction. Communes, generally speaking, are willing to give up the power generation and miror cities in that regard if their ability to defend also mirrors city. If not, then it's a no from me.
If chopping is meant to be a "conflict" mechanic, as opposed to a "griefing" one, wouldn't the org get an announce at the first chop/attack, rather than when the tree falls? A la Fae "HALP HALP SOMEBODY'S KICKING ME".
For "conflict", it would need a long enough chopping time that any relevant defenders would have time to get there to defend the tree from being chopped at all.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
I find it amusing that these big elder trees take only two or three chops (am I right about this?) to fell them. I'd get it if it were an Axelord, but not a mage with a little teensy axe. Realistically, it takes a -lot- to chop into a living tree.
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EveriineWise Old Swordsbird / BrontaurIndianapolis, IN, USA
Just ask Jay and Manny. That Christmas tree broke an axe, froze a saw, and foiled a pickup truck.
Everiine is a man, and is very manly. This MAN before you is so manly you might as well just gender bend right now, cause he's the manliest man that you ever did see. His manly shape has spurned many women and girlyer men to boughs of fainting. He stands before you in a manly manerific typical man-like outfit which is covered in his manly motto: "I am a man!"
Daraius said: You gotta risk it for the biscuit.
Pony power all the way, yo. The more Brontaurs the better.
I find it amusing that these big elder trees take only two or three chops (am I right about this?) to fell them. I'd get it if it were an Axelord, but not a mage with a little teensy axe. Realistically, it takes a -lot- to chop into a living tree.
Don't tell me you want realism now.......... cause I think Lusternia is so far past that line.
I just want to focus on the contents of the report because the further down the rabbit hole people want to go on comparisons the messier it gets. Things like flow or beam stand out as major advantages to defending a location, but if we just make trees unchoppable and (since I think I follow Xenthos now) make them like statues in carving time and runing, then we can make trees purely RP and no longer a matter of conflict/power.
@Xenthos: Hopefully I followed what you meant here. You wanted to cover the aspects of the toteming/carving process for ease of use to go along with it all? Is that the sameness you were looking for?
@Celina: That was in another thread.... and related to the actual topic of the thread. There is no real value in bickering with you or anyone else. Everyone here definitely has their own feelings on the topic, but the fact people are here means they are also interested in handling it. I am simply trying to focus our pseudo topic discussions away from each other and onto the subject itself. I imagine you are here for the same reasons?
@Xenthos: Hopefully I followed what you meant here. You wanted to cover the aspects of the toteming/carving process for ease of use to go along with it all? Is that the sameness you were looking for?
No. If you are removing the power aspect from totems, then they need to be made exactly the same as statues. In all respects. No more need for bonding, can be put up in a few seconds, need to be empowered, no more reversions, require a channeled action to remove, and so on and so forth. The power generation is their biggest advantage. If you are going to take it away, then you also need to remove the comparative disadvantages as well. Otherwise, you are making for an enormous disparity between one and the other, where totems have a tremendous number of weaknesses but no longer have their large benefit to counteract them.
Or you can let them be different and unique things, make cutting them either more difficult (channeled action) or just flat out impossible (once again, when nobody was chopping trees the game did not end), and leave their other differences in place (listed above) in exchange for the power generation. Totems have a great deal of other flaws inherent in their usage that the power generation addresses, after all, and you can't just pretend they do not exist when discussing removal of that power generation.
@Xenthos: Hopefully I followed what you meant here. You wanted to cover the aspects of the toteming/carving process for ease of use to go along with it all? Is that the sameness you were looking for?
No. If you are removing the power aspect from totems, then they need to be made exactly the same as statues. In all respects. No more need for bonding, can be put up in a few seconds, need to be empowered, no more reversions, require a channeled action to remove, and so on and so forth. The power generation is their biggest advantage. If you are going to take it away, then you also need to remove the comparative disadvantages as well. Otherwise, you are making for an enormous disparity between one and the other, where totems have a tremendous number of weaknesses but no longer have their large benefit to counteract them.
Or you can let them be different and unique things, make cutting them either more difficult (channeled action) or just flat out impossible (once again, when nobody was chopping trees the game did not end), and leave their other differences in place (listed above) in exchange for the power generation. Totems have a great deal of other flaws inherent in their usage that the power generation addresses, after all, and you can't just pretend they do not exist when discussing removal of that power generation.
I think there can be -some- differences, so long as the differences are equal and don't have major effects on the overall balance. For instance, I see the 'takes time and passive effort to grow, can't be destroyed while carved, requires regular upkeep' as fairly equal to 'takes time and active effort to empower, can be destroyed at anytime, requires very infrequent upkeep' - totems are harder to take down but harder to put back up.
Of course, I also wouldn't be arguing if it was just made completely equal. I'm just saying, if flavour is something that's still sought after, some give and take is fine by me. It just has to be balanced, and most importantly it has to put player enjoyment and engagement first. Nobody wants to spend hours empowering statues. Nobody wants to spend hours putting out forest fires. When you have mechanics that literally cause players to go 'I don't want to deal with this, I'm going to log out', you have a major design problem.
I want to reiterate this, especially if admin are actually watching this thread. It's a question that was posed to me before, even if I didn't have an answer it at the time.
Yes, things like tree chopping (or quest-griefing, though that will probably seem random to most) can be called "conflict". But it is not meaningful, and it is definitely not interesting. Tree chopping really only wastes time (on both sides, I really do not understand what tree-choppers are getting out of the deal). It's busy work, as has been mentioned already in this thread.
"Conflict," in the sense that I understand most people using it here, is people striving against each other. What strife is there when the kick and runner just kicks and runs away (trees, demons, quest mobs, or whatever)?
In its current implementation, and even with this change, people are only even aware of it after the damage is done. Give them a chance to prevent the damage, and it will be inherently more interesting, rather than "F, let's spend RL days fixing this crap". Give the "raiders" an actual chance to die in the process before achieving their "harm", and it becomes actual conflict, not just people doing mean shit to each other when backs are turned away.
Mayor Steingrim, the Grand Schema says to you, "Well, as I recall you kinda leave a mark whereever you go."
Gloves of mastery only halve the power used, they don't cut the time. 7 minutes is about right from what I remember. Instant to make the statue, about 7 minutes to enchant (channeled), a few more balances to tune and rune and you're set for 125+months. Upkeep is one balance and 3 marble.
I would make a comment here about liars and credibility, but I think enough is enough. I've wasted enough of my time.
What is that ii. It looks like it is lacking some information there. Pretty sure you have more than 3 items in your entire inventory, unless you really are running around only wearing a watch (indecent..).
However, if gloves for some strange reason are -not- influencing enchanting a statue, then I think that would need tweaking.
At this point it feels like the only "conflict" generated by totems is arguing about them on the forums.
Pity that Chopper over there doesn't run away from the thread when someone shows up, though.
Also, for those who haven't checked HELP ARTIFACTS TRADE in a while: Gloves of Mastery: 400 credits - Halves the drain from energy reserves for enchanters and alchemists. - Must be worn.
Okay then.
The purpose of writing is to inflate weak ideas, obscure pure reasoning, and inhibit clarity. With a little practice, writing can be an intimidating and impenetrable fog!
They never have. Gloves of mastery halve the power used, for enchantment and so forth. They don't do anything else.
Oh, and don't forget that to destroy a statue is a 5 minute channeled action. Unlike a what, 12 second tree chop?
Make chopping trees a lengthy channeled action. If someone wants to destroy them, they face the same risk of discovery as someone trying to destroy a statue, sitting with their system paused like a sitting duck.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
(PS: You're thinking of the Chisel, which does halve the time to both enchant and destroy a statue, but very few even know about much less buy-- primarily because it was an auction artifact to begin with, and then slipped into the game quietly relatively recently)
Edit: Apparently the chisel doesn't actually speed up enchanting statues according to the help file (though I'm pretty sure it actually does do so?) If not, then there's nothing that actually speeds up enchant time.
(PS: You're thinking of the Chisel, which does halve the time to both enchant and destroy a statue, but very few even know about much less buy-- edit: Primarily because it was an auction artifact to begin with, and then slipped into the game quietly relatively recently)
Ah that's it. I'll be sure to smack my enchanter.
Seriously to stop the tears, just make them into statues. At this point it'd be a relief for everyone. I understand the concept of "city and commune different mechanics", and in the end the idea of a 'totem' is different from a 'statue'. That...or could make enchanters only able to bond 1 statue. I wouldnt mind .
They never have. Gloves of mastery halve the power used, for enchantment and so forth. They don't do anything else.
Oh, and don't forget that to destroy a statue is a 5 minute channeled action. Unlike a what, 12 second tree chop?
You're still forgetting that an elder tree is -not- a totem, it is simply a prerequisite for it. Totems are by all accounts untouchable, which is perhaps why elders were made so fragile. Currently totems in the long run are less of a defensive item and more of a utility one, that of supplying power. If they were changed into the same defensive structure that a statue is, then they'd also have to become destructable like them.
As someone who's been watching the topic without having an intricate grasp on the mechanics, could someone maybe indulge me and answer me a few simple questions about it?
- How many power generating trees / totems are usually in one commune? - How often / how many of those are regularly destroyed by offenders? - How long does it take a trees to become elder trees? I've read that you have to change the amount of trees around a few times. - Are offenders regularly spotted cutting down the trees?
I personally would not like to see that a mechanic is squished and replaced by one that's already had by others (trees vs statues). I find it appealing to have communes functioning differently then cities. But am only an outside watcher, ultimately it must function for those who have to work with those mechanics regularly.
- How many power generating trees / totems are usually in one commune?
About 300 or so. A bit more for Serenwilde, a bit less (I think) for Glomdoring.
- How often / how many of those are regularly destroyed by offenders?
It depends on if someone (read: any singular person) has a bug up their ass about it. A long time can go by with no totems chopped, then you can have someone come and chop ten every week or more. Recently (Within the past few months) it's been at least ten or so a month, I think.
- How long does it take a trees to become elder trees? I've read that you have to change the amount of trees around a few times.
It takes about three real life days. How it works is that each org's prime power quest (Gathering pixies or shadows) generates a Sacred Tree nut from the nexus, every 10 gathered (there are generally greater than 10 but less than 20 to gather in an hour). These are then planted to grow new trees. You need to plant 5 nuts, which turn immediately into saplings. On the Full or New moon, for Moonharts and Ravenwoods respectively, the trees instantly upgrade to the next stage. Before the appropriate moon phase comes around, someone needs to prune away trees to the correct number so that they grow again. The growing stages are: Sapling (immediate), mature (cut to three), enormous (cut to 1) and, elder (carve). At Elder, the tree is done growing and needs to be carved. So, if someone chops right after the moon cycle, it's 20 hours wait to mature, 20 hours wait to enormous, 20 hours wait until elder. I often say 'three to four days', because if multiple trees are cut, it can be hard to generate enough nuts to plant them all before the next moon cycle - so you have to wait another one or even two. Growing trees are vulnerable to being chopped down as well, without additional input. Of course, guards can be used, but they can be circumvented and (frankly) cost more power than the trees lose. -woods can protect up to ten growing Sacred Trees per IG month, making them invulnerable until they next grow.
- Are offenders regularly spotted cutting down the trees?
Absolutely not. Sometimes you can get a lucky scent right after the 'tree falling' message goes through, assuming anyone is online and in the area. It's been mentioned a few times that forests have other defensive disadvantages that frankly make it not make any difference. To prove this point, I (years ago) walked into Glomdoring with an axe and chopped down five elder ravenwoods in a row, with opposition present (two or three folks chasing me?), and walked out with the lumber in hand. If you cannot 100% hinder someone from taking actions or moving away, you cannot stop chopping totems. Shortly afterwards, both communes signed an agreement to not chop each other's totems henceforth, explicitly because of how easy it is.
I think that most of the people posting and commenting about this would also prefer an interesting difference between city and forest mechanics. The current system and all its derivatives (including this ironbark thing) isn't that mechanic. Basically turning off the power generation and griefing aspects opens up massive vistas of new mechanics unchained by the old imbalances and problems of the old system.
@Enyalida Thank you for taking the time on bringing me up to speed with the mechanics ! :-)
When I first was reading the announcement, I thought 'Oh, that doesn't sound half bad'. Then I read the power cost and thought 'well, for a few trees, that sounds manageable'. But for 300? Sounds like a tough task.
Wouldn't it make more sense, instead of protecting the trees themselves (like with ironbark) to use this amount of power to give those empowered trees the ability to sense damage done to their brethren up to a certain range? Kind of like a 'sentinel' type of tree that reports directly to a specific druid / a group of druids ? I have too little grasp of mechanical details yet where something like that would tie in. So, strategical turning of trees into sentinels instead of totems would allow the commune to notice when trees are under attack, allow them faster response, but the sentinel would be as vulnerable as a normal tree (likely 16 seconds isn't a good timespan for cutting down, I think you'd need at least 2 minutes or so after the begin of the chop to actively react and still have a chance to save the tree). Also thinking that things like chopping down trees / destroying statues need to be interrupted if you are hit. Sorry, but even the most focused mind can't force their body to work with a large axe stuck in their intestines.
edit: paragraph removed, my power calculations were wrong (misundestood, thought the 150 were per tree)... doh.
As for a new system, I suppose that would take a lot of people quite an amount of work to get that done, maybe we can the current system work? I don't know, these are all just thoughts of someone who's not been in close connection with the mechanics.
What? The discretionary is org-wide, so it costs 150 per hour to 'protect' all of the trees at once. The math still doesn't work out though, and it's a fundamentally problematic bandaid to the problem.
The sentinel idea is interesting, something similar was suggested in report 1091, seeking to combat part of this problem by increasing the number of people who could carve (slightly). The problem there, and with the idea of 'just protecting' trees with the existing system is that's it's still prime conflict - I have never in my years of playing known anyone to chop totems when there is a chance of real resistance.
Just to add a few things to Enyalidas answers above...
First, I think moon cycles are 32 days, not 20. That means that there's at least 64 hours of wait between them being cut and being brought back to totems... assuming they're cut right before the moon cycle (which is unlikely) and you somehow have five nuts ready to be planted (which is impossible, since only one nut exists at a time). So at absolute best, it's probably closer to 67 hours, assuming everything lines up perfectly, which it very rarely does.
Second, ten a month is perhaps what Serenwilde gets felled. Just today we lost eight elder trees, which means we have to get 40 nuts, which means we have to gather 400 shadows... which will take roughly 30-40 hours. Assuming it's worked on constantly.
@Xenthos: Hopefully I followed what you meant here. You wanted to cover the aspects of the toteming/carving process for ease of use to go along with it all? Is that the sameness you were looking for?
No. If you are removing the power aspect from totems, then they need to be made exactly the same as statues. In all respects. No more need for bonding, can be put up in a few seconds, need to be empowered, no more reversions, require a channeled action to remove, and so on and so forth. The power generation is their biggest advantage. If you are going to take it away, then you also need to remove the comparative disadvantages as well. Otherwise, you are making for an enormous disparity between one and the other, where totems have a tremendous number of weaknesses but no longer have their large benefit to counteract them.
Or you can let them be different and unique things, make cutting them either more difficult (channeled action) or just flat out impossible (once again, when nobody was chopping trees the game did not end), and leave their other differences in place (listed above) in exchange for the power generation. Totems have a great deal of other flaws inherent in their usage that the power generation addresses, after all, and you can't just pretend they do not exist when discussing removal of that power generation.
Ah my apologies.
I am in favor of making them not a "conflict" mechanic and just making them home grown statues. Reversions and such can go away. Just make it a crow skill or something to tune (since you don't really have enchanting) and let one user get all the totems!
Comments
No. If you are removing the power aspect from totems, then they need to be made exactly the same as statues. In all respects. No more need for bonding, can be put up in a few seconds, need to be empowered, no more reversions, require a channeled action to remove, and so on and so forth. The power generation is their biggest advantage. If you are going to take it away, then you also need to remove the comparative disadvantages as well. Otherwise, you are making for an enormous disparity between one and the other, where totems have a tremendous number of weaknesses but no longer have their large benefit to counteract them.
Or you can let them be different and unique things, make cutting them either more difficult (channeled action) or just flat out impossible (once again, when nobody was chopping trees the game did not end), and leave their other differences in place (listed above) in exchange for the power generation. Totems have a great deal of other flaws inherent in their usage that the power generation addresses, after all, and you can't just pretend they do not exist when discussing removal of that power generation.
Whoops.jpg
I would make a comment here about liars and credibility, but I think enough is enough. I've wasted enough of my time.
What is that ii. It looks like it is lacking some information there. Pretty sure you have more than 3 items in your entire inventory, unless you really are running around only wearing a watch (indecent..).
However, if gloves for some strange reason are -not- influencing enchanting a statue, then I think that would need tweaking.
Pity that Chopper over there doesn't run away from the thread when someone shows up, though.
Also, for those who haven't checked HELP ARTIFACTS TRADE in a while:
Gloves of Mastery: 400 credits
- Halves the drain from energy reserves for enchanters and alchemists.
- Must be worn.
Okay then.
Oh, and don't forget that to destroy a statue is a 5 minute channeled action. Unlike a what, 12 second tree chop?
Make chopping trees a lengthy channeled action. If someone wants to destroy them, they face the same risk of discovery as someone trying to destroy a statue, sitting with their system paused like a sitting duck.
(PS: You're thinking of the Chisel, which does halve the time to both enchant and destroy a statue, but very few even know about much less buy-- primarily because it was an auction artifact to begin with, and then slipped into the game quietly relatively recently)
Edit: Apparently the chisel doesn't actually speed up enchanting statues according to the help file (though I'm pretty sure it actually does do so?) If not, then there's nothing that actually speeds up enchant time.
Ah that's it. I'll be sure to smack my enchanter.
Seriously to stop the tears, just make them into statues. At this point it'd be a relief for everyone. I understand the concept of "city and commune different mechanics", and in the end the idea of a 'totem' is different from a 'statue'. That...or could make enchanters only able to bond 1 statue. I wouldnt mind
You're still forgetting that an elder tree is -not- a totem, it is simply a prerequisite for it. Totems are by all accounts untouchable, which is perhaps why elders were made so fragile. Currently totems in the long run are less of a defensive item and more of a utility one, that of supplying power. If they were changed into the same defensive structure that a statue is, then they'd also have to become destructable like them.
- How many power generating trees / totems are usually in one commune?
- How often / how many of those are regularly destroyed by offenders?
- How long does it take a trees to become elder trees? I've read that you have to change the amount of trees around a few times.
- Are offenders regularly spotted cutting down the trees?
I personally would not like to see that a mechanic is squished and replaced by one that's already had by others (trees vs statues). I find it appealing to have communes functioning differently then cities. But am only an outside watcher, ultimately it must function for those who have to work with those mechanics regularly.
When I first was reading the announcement, I thought 'Oh, that doesn't sound half bad'. Then I read the power cost and thought 'well, for a few trees, that sounds manageable'. But for 300? Sounds like a tough task.
Wouldn't it make more sense, instead of protecting the trees themselves (like with ironbark) to use this amount of power to give those empowered trees the ability to sense damage done to their brethren up to a certain range? Kind of like a 'sentinel' type of tree that reports directly to a specific druid / a group of druids ? I have too little grasp of mechanical details yet where something like that would tie in. So, strategical turning of trees into sentinels instead of totems would allow the commune to notice when trees are under attack, allow them faster response, but the sentinel would be as vulnerable as a normal tree (likely 16 seconds isn't a good timespan for cutting down, I think you'd need at least 2 minutes or so after the begin of the chop to actively react and still have a chance to save the tree). Also thinking that things like chopping down trees / destroying statues need to be interrupted if you are hit. Sorry, but even the most focused mind can't force their body to work with a large axe stuck in their intestines.
edit: paragraph removed, my power calculations were wrong (misundestood, thought the 150 were per tree)... doh.
As for a new system, I suppose that would take a lot of people quite an amount of work to get that done, maybe we can the current system work? I don't know, these are all just thoughts of someone who's not been in close connection with the mechanics.
The sentinel idea is interesting, something similar was suggested in report 1091, seeking to combat part of this problem by increasing the number of people who could carve (slightly). The problem there, and with the idea of 'just protecting' trees with the existing system is that's it's still prime conflict - I have never in my years of playing known anyone to chop totems when there is a chance of real resistance.
First, I think moon cycles are 32 days, not 20. That means that there's at least 64 hours of wait between them being cut and being brought back to totems... assuming they're cut right before the moon cycle (which is unlikely) and you somehow have five nuts ready to be planted (which is impossible, since only one nut exists at a time). So at absolute best, it's probably closer to 67 hours, assuming everything lines up perfectly, which it very rarely does.
Second, ten a month is perhaps what Serenwilde gets felled. Just today we lost eight elder trees, which means we have to get 40 nuts, which means we have to gather 400 shadows... which will take roughly 30-40 hours. Assuming it's worked on constantly.
/eyeroll