I will say that this request for parity, though, sounds like "they have it, so we should have it too". If there's one single thing that's impressed through report history or envoy 'training', it's that that kind of reasoning is a cardinal sin. I'm not accusing you of committing it, and I don't even support that rule -- because look how you just explained how appropriate it is for balance. What are your thoughts on that?
(ie, I want a stun because lots of other melds have a stun)
You can't make the same argument between Pyro's and Aero's because they both have melds with varying effects.
...okay, tell me a report number that has both of these points of interest in mind. Stop being obtuse.
I don't understand what you want here? You asked a question about the fire/vines in reference to something completely different. I explained why Lerad's use here was ok envoy-wise and examples of when it's not valid reasoning. You can feel free to trawl through the reports yourself, there are plenty of examples to choose from, as you pointed out.
Problem: The Pyromancers are the only mage group to not have a demesne action that would hold someone in place....
That's all I'm going to say on this subject.
Lol ok - Here's the thing. This was argued as a weakness, and in a way that pyro melds were not equal strength to other melds. They didn't say 'Hey, you have stun, I want stun, so give me stun'
If you can't see the difference between those two arguments, then it's good you are no longer an envoy.
I think only offering one solution would have been more likely to result in a rejection. Of course, that might be me being jaded and jumping to conclusions before they have been made - and if you tell me that I was being overly pessimistic with my attitude by not having the confidence to only offer the single solution that I feel so strongly about, I'll accept that.
Perhaps from the admin's point of view, that is the same as well. Maybe they feel that they were not given enough indicators from the players or myself that this is a problem beforehand. I have reached out to them before in private, but due to tree-chopping rather than fire starting. I felt the nexus discretionaries were added due to them responding to my requests to investigate an individual for harassment, though, so I assumed that they know fire starting has been a problem.
@Estarra, if you feel that I was not giving you and your team enough indicators before "pouncing" on this situation now, I apologize.
That said, I don't think I was in the wrong to come up with as many solutions as I can which I believe will resolve one or more of the stated problems in the problem statement when writing my report. Even if you argue that creating a report which seems more moderate and less inflammatory than what I privately feel about the issue is my failing in this matter (to convey to the admin how I truly felt), I see very little wrongdoing for providing a report in measured tones and with solutions based on the problem statement.
It may not have been "un-compromising" enough, but I don't see being "compromising", especially when my compromising target is the admin, as something wrong.
I also continue to believe in the capacity solution to resolve the problem. It is my hope that the game shows Estarra proof to justify a more drastic change, but if that hope fails, at the very least, diplomatic threats of retaliation will now carry weight in the game. It is as Yarith says. Evening the field in this sense may increase the amount of people frustrated, but I also believe it creates an avenue that was not available in the past for people to curb it as a societal simulation game.
--
P.S. On the topic of the "when is equal access good or bad" argument, I will say that yes, the Thunderclouds report was one of what I was referring to when I say I've made similar arguments against parity before. I do feel I did my best to illustrate why I felt that is the case in that report, however.
Have room destruction mechanics been discussed? I can't remember, but it seems like it could be an alternative that would still maintain a "burn down the forest" ability without necessarily spreading.
Either way, an even playing field is nicer than what we had.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm gonna say that with the implemented salting mechanic in place, working just like dousing, I've no longer any frustration. What bugged me was that vines were totally worse in every way to fires. Fires were passive damage with a No-Balance fix. Insta-sploosh it away in your area. Vines break bones -and- do damage, and required balance to remove. (Which needed zero broken bones to do so.) It was a pretty garbage scenario. I'd cure out after logging in to vines, chop, get afflicted again as vines spread back into the room and broke a limb, cure, then chop it away. Move to the next room after 10 seconds and do it agai... oh wait it's already spread back to the first room. Not a fair comparison. Can do an auto-walk dousing of an entire locale in under a minute, as several people have indicated.
Now that we've got salting on the books (Until we run outta salt, at which time I'll refill here at the forums) I'm far less bothered by it all. Which is to say, I'm not bothered at all and look forward to the looming Meteor-Storm.
(Magnagora): Thax says, "My truest favour to the soldier that brings me the weave of Neos."
Now that we've got salting on the books (Until we run outta salt, at which time I'll refill here at the forums) I'm far less bothered by it all. Which is to say, I'm not bothered at all and look forward to the looming Meteor-Storm.
What? I never called kick and run raiding anything. I just returned, I don't know most people who are in Mag now, I don't know who is doing what. All I do is sit in the city soaking in the steampunk atmosphere and designing, and suddenly I can't have my fun because I'm being attacked by vines. I really don't know why you guys all hate each other so much.
I stopped playing Qistrel because griefers sucked all the fun out of playing her, and Nikka is quickly going the same way. And when I run out of things again, I'm not going to make a new character, I'm gonna go find another game.
Well this was fun to wake up to, something to read on the bus!
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
A more strongly worded slant to solution 1 may have made them take it up, or it may have not. I don't expect the admin to read my mind to find out how strongly I feel about this, but I believe my report, especially the comments, illustrated to the admin fully where the majority consensus lies (to the extent that a report with the premise of keeping fire spreading was moved to include fire spreading removal at the behest of multiple envoys), and that is far more convincing than if I had just caps-locked "SOLUTION 1/3 IS THE ONLY ACCEPTABLE SOLUTION." in my problem statement.
But if you want to say I could have done that as well, and that is a failing of the report, then yes, I certainly could have made myself sound a lot more uncompromising on the report on which solution I was leaning to, and why. Both my original solutions, and the ideal third solution, however, remain valid in my opinion.
That's still not what I mean though, at risk of dragging this point of contest any longer ><
I mean you should've had what you --actually wanted to happen-- (deletion of fire starting/spreading or close enough) as solution 1 in your report, and leave solution 2 and 3 blank.
That would work, if we were living in an ideal world where we expected Solution 1 to be accepted. If, instead, we're living in a world where we are unsure that Solution 1 is going to be accepted (which, in this case, I just expected the report in its entirety to be either rejected-- including sol2-- or sol4'd), it is incumbent upon us to try to present other (less desirable to us personally) solutions that might move towards better game balance as well. I'm not sure what's so complicated about that concept? Lerad has a strong personal preference, but falling short of that he was fine with presenting a solution that aimed to provided parity, and included it. That's the one that was accepted.
When I write a report where I have a strong preference for solution 1 but feel that it's even a tossup whether or not the admin will accept it, I absolutely try to provide other solutions that are different / potentially palatable in different ways. If you just do one solution and it gets rejected, you've completely wasted your report. If you do multiple solutions, they can get a better idea of where you're coming from (the solutions should flow from the problem) and even if they don't accept your ideas, there's a greater chance that they will decide to make up their own solution that they think will address the problem because they see that you were willing to be flexible and not committed to "this is the only thing that I want".
What? I never called kick and run raiding anything. I just returned, I don't know most people who are in Mag now, I don't know who is doing what. All I do is sit in the city soaking in the steampunk atmosphere and designing, and suddenly I can't have my fun because I'm being attacked by vines. I really don't know why you guys all hate each other so much.
I stopped playing Qistrel because griefers sucked all the fun out of playing her, and Nikka is quickly going the same way. And when I run out of things again, I'm not going to make a new character, I'm gonna go find another game.
This is, I think, the major problem with fire spreading (and tree chopping) as a conflict mechanic. It simply adds nothing tangible to the game. In that way, it is similar to kick-and-run raiding, as Yarith compared. One of the major differences, however, is that the latter is at least nominally opt-in, where you can choose to disable loyaltells and just ignore the kick-and-runner. Of course, that is a weak argument, because take that line of thought far enough, and you'll quickly reach the point where you can just "log out" to "opt out" of anything and everything entirely.
As it is, however, fire spreading (and tree-chopping) isn't even nominally an opt-in conflict, because there is no way to ignore the damage and affliction(s) beyond actually disengaging with the game entirely (manse or logout). It is obnoxious and in-your-face, which is possibly (I don't know for sure, but possibly) why the admin have expressed their keenness to keep it in the past - because players can't ignore it like they can sometimes ignore large portions of the game which they don't like. I get that a game made up entirely of modular, opt-in mechanics is not really a persistent world game and becomes more of a MUSH, but I think it is important to recognise that it can be dangerous to create circumstances that oblige players to respond. Fire spreading and tree chopping is a prime example of that kind of RP-enforced engagement taken too far.
A nice way to even the playing field might have been to delete player-started fires (which is only able to be done by very few abilities anyway, that don't need it). Which is what I asked for. But I guess this works instead.
And thus far I am not seeing "the people" revel in it, just certain individuals. Yes, some people are indeed happy to have new toys but that doesn't mean everyone is. I hope you keep that in mind as you have your fun and do what you want!
The envoys asked for this resolution and the people will revel in it. The system works.
We'll remember this when you're complaining that the south org skills are too op.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
I'm just sad I can't spread them as a druid. Oh well.
I know, right? City Guardian's are better at spreading nature than we are.
Avurekhos says, "Dylara's a PvP menace in my eyes, totes rekting face."
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable. Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
Comments
That's all I'm going to say on this subject.
If you can't see the difference between those two arguments, then it's good you are no longer an envoy.
Either way, an even playing field is nicer than what we had.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
Now that we've got salting on the books (Until we run outta salt, at which time I'll refill here at the forums) I'm far less bothered by it all. Which is to say, I'm not bothered at all and look forward to the looming Meteor-Storm.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
I stopped playing Qistrel because griefers sucked all the fun out of playing her, and Nikka is quickly going the same way. And when I run out of things again, I'm not going to make a new character, I'm gonna go find another game.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.
When I write a report where I have a strong preference for solution 1 but feel that it's even a tossup whether or not the admin will accept it, I absolutely try to provide other solutions that are different / potentially palatable in different ways. If you just do one solution and it gets rejected, you've completely wasted your report. If you do multiple solutions, they can get a better idea of where you're coming from (the solutions should flow from the problem) and even if they don't accept your ideas, there's a greater chance that they will decide to make up their own solution that they think will address the problem because they see that you were willing to be flexible and not committed to "this is the only thing that I want".
As it is, however, fire spreading (and tree-chopping) isn't even nominally an opt-in conflict, because there is no way to ignore the damage and affliction(s) beyond actually disengaging with the game entirely (manse or logout). It is obnoxious and in-your-face, which is possibly (I don't know for sure, but possibly) why the admin have expressed their keenness to keep it in the past - because players can't ignore it like they can sometimes ignore large portions of the game which they don't like. I get that a game made up entirely of modular, opt-in mechanics is not really a persistent world game and becomes more of a MUSH, but I think it is important to recognise that it can be dangerous to create circumstances that oblige players to respond. Fire spreading and tree chopping is a prime example of that kind of RP-enforced engagement taken too far.
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
== Professional Girl Gamer ==
Yes I play games
Yes I'm a girl
get over it
And thus far I am not seeing "the people" revel in it, just certain individuals. Yes, some people are indeed happy to have new toys but that doesn't mean everyone is. I hope you keep that in mind as you have your fun and do what you want!
But well its the system we have to work in I guess.
They come from meteors. Meteors are from space. Conclusion: They're space slugs.
They spread rapidly upon the ground and are hostile to everyone. Conclusion:
We'll remember this when you're complaining that the south org skills are too op.
The eye of Dylara materialises in your hands and flings itself around your neck, tightening incomprehensibly until it is irremovable.
Perfectly clean, this eyeball has been wrenched from the socket of Dylara. It has been animated by some unusual force, constantly looking around itself as if in shock or fear. It is bathed in a light covering of white flames that roll endlessly over its surface. A single chain of empyreal metal pierces either side of the eye, allowing it to be worn around the neck.