Alliances

Cyndarin · October 2015

All organizations are out for themselves, no org is pro friendship4ever, and to say Glomdoring is somehow unique in this is more telling of your own personal bias than anything to do with Glomdoring.

Anyways, my point has never been to blame the RPers who made this decision for being the ones to make this decision, Everinne is correct in that PKers can be just as stifling in their actions. My points is that at this point, those who made the choice should now review the consequences of that choice, recognize it has only benefitted them and their own, private goals at the cost of a lot of other people. This game cannot survive as an RP chatroom, and Glomdoring certainly isn't going to flourish as it has in the past (and as I wish to see it do again) if this continues.

Kethaera · October 2015

Celina said:

All organizations are out for themselves, no org is pro friendship4ever, and to say Glomdoring is somehow unique in this is more telling of your own personal bias than anything to do with Glomdoring.

Anyways, my point has never been to blame the RPers who made this decision for being the ones to make this decision, Everinne is correct in that PKers can be just as stifling in their actions. My points is that at this point, those who made the choice should now review the consequences of that choice, recognize it has only benefitted them and their own, private goals at the cost of a lot of other people. This game cannot survive as an RP chatroom, and Glomdoring certainly isn't going to flourish as it has in the past (and as I wish to see it do again) if this continues.

You keep talking like I don't want things to change either- BS, @Celina. What I have a problem with is that no one asked HOW we wanted things to change. No one seemed to care about how things were going until a few days ago. Then suddenly, they had a problem with everything and everything needed to change to "this way" and screw anyone who thinks differently. No, I don't want to play the game in an RP chatroom either, but as I see it, you're still ignoring some pretty fundamental problems with communication and everyone's ability and desire to work with everyone else- and I don't believe switching alliances is going to magically change that.

Kethaera · October 2015

Celina said:

I'm sorry, @Kethaera, but you're a little full of shit and it sounds like IC grudges are spilling over OOCly. I never said you can't oppose the alliance, or that you weren't entitled to your position as a character or a player, and I'm not here to dictate to you what valid or good RP is. I'm just spelling out the reality of the situation and how it affects the health of your organization and the game as a whole, and that being hard to stomach means almost nothing to me. Your position does, matter of factly, drive away the PKing community (or do I need to explain why I left again), regardless of any imagined unfairness because my character opposed a treaty or whatever nonsense that post was about. Whether you feel that it is unfair that it does is a pointless discussion.

...If I can't oppose the alliance, then why did you start this argument over my simple joke on raves about strong opinions not normally leading to mechanical benefits? I don't even know what this is really about anymore, but no, I don't believe that my position is what's causing the biggest problems in Glom right now- but would it help if I left, and there would be a significantly less active push for the current position? Maybe... but there's still going to be the same problems that I see happening now. The unfairness I'm talking about is that you accuse me of doing the same damn things you've done yourself- but it's killing the game and ruining everything when I do it. Also... what IC grudges? With who? Seriously, I have no idea what you're talking about. Whatever the pk-faction is in Glom, they don't seem to say anything to me about anything, and I don't talk to people OOCLY outside of the forums.

This "I play this game too, deal with it" meaningless sassy word vomit has nothing to do anything. Yes, you are entitled to play the game however you wish through words and actions. That does not release you from the consequences of those choices. This is not an argument about the right of choice, but the willful (or just plain) ignorance of consequences.

Ok. So your claim IS that I'm the one killing the game and ruining all the fun. That's pretty impressive, I have to admit.

I mean, you said "IDGAF what the PKers want," and that being hard to digest for you now doesn't make it go away. Last I checked, the PKers you're addressing just wanted an active and healthy Glom population and players to have fun, and not just the pocket of people who want to RP with Hallifax in a manse over tea. Sorry that's so offensive to you.

I said "I know what my solution is and..." And if I wanted to explain the context behind that, I would, because lolforumrp is fun. But seriously, what is this crap about drinking tea in manses with Hallifax? I don't even believe you're talking about me with that comment, because most of what I do is not 'sitting around roleplaying' unless something specific comes up- I do quests. Or bash. Or any of that other conflict-related stuff that leads to getting hunted and you arguing with me on the forums about it. Which is it, Celina: am I sitting around in manses all day or am I causing trouble with Gaudi/Mag?

Cyndarin · October 2015

Well, considering your posts have been "I don't care what you want, I'm doing it my way," you'll have to forgive for me drawing the conclusion that your proposed solution is "I want things to change by keeping things the way they are." If you're asking me do I believe you want things to actually change, the answer is no I do not. I believe you want to results to change without any changes to what you are inputting. When pressed, your responses have literally been "IDGAF" and "We decided on the alliance and you should just raid Gaudiguch. Deal with it. It's my right." When confronted by the disparity of fairness on that position, you ignore it and just try to flip the script.

People have cared and had issues with this outcome since it was proposed, it is not new. Complaints and concerns, especially ones that are validated by how events play out, do not cease to exist because you haven't heard anything about them for a week or two. We're not playing Alzheimer's: Age of Ascension. You've been hearing about them for months. There is nothing "sudden" about it.

See, here's the fundamental problem: switching alliances does actually fix everything and there is no magic about it. It's somple logic and numbers. Instead of a 4v2, it's a 3v3. Instead of convoluted criss crossing of alliances and wars with Seren/Celest/Hallifax, it's all pretty straight forward. Is it ideal or what everyone wants? No, obviously not. That doesn't dismiss the logic behind it though.

edit: It doesn't even have to be Glom, in theory, but it's thoroughly established at this point that Celest is not going to give up Seren, and Hallifax is not going to give up Celest. That leaves Glom either sitting on the fence as they are now and hemorrhaging their dedicated PK community or following the information already gathered to its most logical conclusion. The issue, as I see it, is that there are still members of Glom who see some miracle resolution to the Celest/Seren/Halli refusal to break up that hasn't been explored in the past RL year, but have yet to say what that was. I can only assume, at this point, they are putting personal goals before realistic or rational ones.

edit2: I'm not really interested in responding to self victimization. We're talking more than one person. If you want to make "a pocket of people" all about you, more power to you, but I'm just going to roll my eyes. Are you invovled? Sure. Is some of it applicable to you? Sure. Is some of it not? Sure. Has this ever been a list of "The Reasons Kethera Specifically Ruined the Game?" No.

Kethaera · October 2015

Celina said:

Well, considering your posts have been "I don't care what you want, I'm doing it my way," you'll have to forgive for me drawing the conclusion that your proposed solution is "I want things to change by keeping things the way they are." If you're asking me do I believe you want things to actually change, the answer is no I do not. I believe you want to results to change without any changes to what you are inputting. When pressed, your responses have literally been "IDGAF" and "We decided on the alliance and you should just raid Gaudiguch. Deal with it. It's my right." When confronted by the disparity of fairness on that position, you ignore it and just try to flip the script.

It's as fair as your position that I should do things your way instead. That's how differences of opinion work, @Celina. And you can believe whatever you want, it doesn't obligate me to change my mind or my actions. Really, if those in Glom you mention have a problem with it, there are things they could do to get rid of me. I'm not going to apologize for being better at getting my way than some people- that doesn't mean I'm not trying to change anything or do what I feel is in everyone's best interest. But arguing about it on the forums is the least productive way to resolve anything.

People have cared and had issues with this outcome since it was proposed, it is not new. Complaints and concerns, especially ones that are validated by how events play out, do not cease to exist because you haven't heard anything about them for a week or two. We're not playing Alzheimer's: Age of Ascension. You've been hearing about them for months. There is nothing "sudden" about it.

Read the words I said: There has been nothing said about the alliance for weeks. Yes, I am aware there were problems people had with it. I had problems with it, too, but again, no one bothered to ask what we wanted to do about it. Comm-u-ni-ca-tion. It's a thing.

See, here's the fundamental problem: switching alliances does actually fix everything and there is no magic about it. It's somple logic and numbers. Instead of a 4v2, it's a 3v3. Instead of convoluted criss crossing of alliances and wars with Seren/Celest/Hallifax, it's all pretty straight forward. Is it ideal or what everyone wants? No, obviously not. That doesn't dismiss the logic behind it though.

edit: It doesn't even have to be Glom, in theory, but it's thoroughly established at this point that Celest is not going to give up Seren, and Hallifax is not going to give up Celest. That leaves Glom either sitting on the fence as they are now and hemorrhaging their dedicated PK community or following the information already gathered to its most logical conclusion.

And I don't agree that that's the only solution, nor what will magically fix the problem. We could do this forever. Or, you know, not.

Arcanis · October 2015

Did Eodh just try to portray Glom as the victim in every scenario...

Kethaera · October 2015

Arcanis said:

Did Eodh just try to portray Glom as the victim in every scenario...

Sounds like perfect Glom propaganda to me. I don't know why he ever left.

Cyndarin · October 2015

You know, one of the perks of moving away from all this mess is I don't have to deal with people who can, in all seriousness, be unapologetic and almost proud, about their refusal to do anything that is not their way while faulting others for not being particularly good at communication. It's a thing. If people are not coming to you with questions or discussions, maybe it's time to consider it's not them, it's you.

You've all but said "I'm not changing shit, but you should have asked anyway." YEAH OK PASS.

You do you girl, I made my peace and decided to play elsewhere.

Kethaera · October 2015

Whatever, Celina. Not like I want to play either if I'm just ruining everything.

Xenthos · October 2015

If you decided to play elsewhere, maybe you should be consistent instead of continuing to try to force people to see things your way. Nobody agrees on everything, and few people like feeling "forced" into doing something either.

You gave up the ability to push for it in-game. That was your choice. Kethaera did not make it for you. So you're having fun where you are, good for you. Enjoy having your fun instead of demanding that everyone conform to your expectations and desires.

Maligorn · October 2015

^^^^^^^^

Eodh · October 2015

Shedrin said:
I don't think it's possible to simplify it that much without losing a lot of accuracy.

Arcanis said:

Did Eodh just try to portray Glom as the victim in every scenario...

My point was that unequivocally saying Glom was in the wrong is wrong

The breakups happened for a lot of reasons (and all of them were for the good of the game -- constant changes ensure that no one org perpetually wins/loses).

Also, I think @Celina still feels so strongly with this is because she has literally invested real-life years into Glomdoring, and the Shadowdancers in particular.

I don't think anyone really disputes the fact that the game has to polarize to 3v3. It's just a matter of which 3 will fight which other 3, and how long the orgs are willing to twiddle around before ripping to bandaid off.

Cyndarin · October 2015

Xenthos said:

If you decided to play elsewhere, maybe you should be consistent instead of continuing to try to force people to see things your way. Nobody agrees on everything, and few people like feeling "forced" into doing something either. You gave up the ability to push for it in-game. That was your choice. Kethaera did not make it for you. So you're having fun where you are, good for you. Enjoy having your fun instead of demanding that everyone conform to your expectations and desires.

Oh I see. When I voice a disagreement I'm "forcing" you. What do you call it when you disagree with me as you are now? It's bullshit, I'm not interested.

Leaving is, in fact, not demanding everyone conform to my expectations or desires. I was given a choice, conform with those that agreed with you and Ketheara, or leave. I chose to leave. This is a discussion, one where I have presented you contextual information to the situation, and it is beyond my ability, regardless of my location, to force you to do anything with it. If you can't separate an explanation or disagreement from a demand, that is your problem, certainly not mine. I expect a person so well versed in expressing their disagreements to be open to those who disagree with them.

I'll say again for those in the back: this bullshit is part of why I left. The opposition is inflexible and unwilling to look at perspectives that are not their own. Disagree with them, you're just a bully. They disagree with you, well that's another story, and it absolutely cannot be both ways. I can say I was flexible, I even caved to the anti-Magnagora crowd, and ultimately the treaties. It was absolutely my choice to leave. That being said, there is no comparison between us.

edit: Both sides have opinions, and both sides have expressed them strongly here and elsewhere. If you aren't able to accept the same disagreements that you have yourself given without mischaracterizing the opposition as trying to "force" you to "conform," then we know the root of the problem. At the very least, I'm not the one telling people I don't give a fuck about them, or that they aren't allowed to continue to disagree with me.

Kethaera · October 2015

Celina said:

Xenthos said:

If you decided to play elsewhere, maybe you should be consistent instead of continuing to try to force people to see things your way. Nobody agrees on everything, and few people like feeling "forced" into doing something either. You gave up the ability to push for it in-game. That was your choice. Kethaera did not make it for you. So you're having fun where you are, good for you. Enjoy having your fun instead of demanding that everyone conform to your expectations and desires.

Oh I see. When I voice a disagreement I'm "forcing" you. What do you call it when you disagree with me as you are now? It's bullshit, I'm not interested.

Leaving is, in fact, not demanding everyone conform to my expectations or desires. I was given a choice, conform with those that agreed with you and Ketheara, or leave. I chose to leave. This is a discussion, one where I have presented you contextual information to the situation, and it is beyond my ability, regardless of my location, to force you to do anything with it. If you can't separate an explanation or disagreement from a demand, that is your problem, certainly not mine. I expect a person so well versed in expressing their disagreements to be open to those who disagree with them.

I'll say again for those in the back: this bullshit is part of why I left. The opposition is inflexible and unwilling to look at perspectives that are not their own. Disagree with them, you're just a bully. They disagree with you, well that's another story, and it absolutely cannot be both ways. I can say I was flexible, I even caved to the anti-Magnagora crowd, and ultimately the treaties. It was absolutely my choice to leave. That being said, there is no comparison between us.

edit: Both sides have opinions, and both sides have expressed them strongly here and elsewhere. If you aren't able to accept the same disagreements that you have yourself given without mischaracterizing the opposition as trying to "force" you to "conform," then we know the root of the problem. At the very least, I'm not the one telling people I don't give a fuck about them, or that they aren't allowed to continue to disagree with me.

You seem to confuse looking at other perspectives with changing one's own position. I understand why you and other people have a problem with the way things are currently- I don't agree with your solution, as I've said. And sometimes, no matter how reasonable or logical you think your solution is, the other person is not going to agree with it. Matter of fact, that's the exact same way I feel about you.

And Celina, I have no ability to control thoughts. I fail to see how you're no longer allowed to disagree. You can even continue to write your thoughts down, and I will almost certainly continue to not agree with them.

Xenthos · October 2015

Leaving is not forcing anyone to do anything. Going on lengthy diatribes, including attacking entire sections of Glomdoring because they disagreed with you, is indeed a continue attempt to force people to do what you want. That is pretty much the definition of bullying. A healthy discussion is one thing, but things like:
"you're a little full of shit" and "meaningless sassy word vomit" and "not just the pocket of people who want to RP with Hallifax in a manse over tea. Sorry that's so offensive to you." are unproductive, add nothing to the conversation, and are nothing more than an attempt to be dismissive / putting down / stifling those who don't think the way you do.

I didn't even respond to this thread until you went off the deep end, and you're accusing me (as part of "the opposition" apparently) as being inflexible and unwilling to let you disagree. I let you go for pages with your disagreement until you Celina'd it, so...

Enyalida · October 2015

I'm going to go back a page and address some... interesting things that were said on that page.

Delsea said:
Eodh said:
The problem with Glomdoring trying to cozy up to Celest and Hallifax is that Serenwilde is trying to do that, too, but they (the two communes) don't want to cozy up with each other. It won't work well. One of you has to go, or else be stuck in diplomatic limbo (as is already happening).

You're certainly free to support an alliance with Celest and Hallifax, @Kethaera, but you have to take this into account, that not only do you have to choose to be with Celest and Hallifax, you also have to make them choose you over Serenwilde.

This is sounding more and more like relationship advice. What in the world.

Frankly I'm surprised Serenwilde isn't angrier about it. Our ALLIES are protecting and assisting their enemies. And we're letting them do it. Serenwilde is the current basin doormat. I'd be thrilled to see some old fierceness rise up and demand things change or we'll go elsewhere....but then apparently the commune is torn anyway. Some want to be friends with Glom. Some are happy as it is. Some want to break off with our allies and pursue Mag/Gaudi. In the mean time we do nothing and get left behind. What the hell politics. You're drunk. Go home.

I get where this perception of Serenwilde lying down and taking it comes from, but it's not correct. You might not realize it, but there IS and was a lot of anger, and a big firestorm, it just wasn't a public firestorm, because that's tacky. I (and to a greater degree my character) was/is totally furious about the way things have been turning out, partially because -Like @Celina- I've been warning people that this was coming for a long long time and have been ignored.

I have never understood what the actual alternative scenario to 'Lying down and taking it' is, honestly? Standing up and shouting at people? "Screw the alliances, we're just gonna fight Glomdoring all on our own because they ~~disrespected us~~, let the raids begin"? Like, what is it that people want here?

Thing is, like in the Glom leadership evidently, there are people who want to engage the alliance/politics problem and come out with solutions and those who... don't. There are votes and discussions after which there is a consensus, but rogue elements who decide that their will overrides consensus and so on. I am a little torn on what the best solutions are. because while I understand the need to have an enemy you can engage in active war with, I hate being dragged into stupid fighting for the sake of fighting.

Which brings me to the second quote:

Arcanis said:

And hey, we gave Seren the option to come to our side numerous times, but as is common with Serenwilde: Shit dont get done.

This is... hilarious. No, Serenwilde isn't allied with Magnagora because 'Shit don't get done'. It's because no one wants to be allied with Magnagora, because of people like you. More specifically: You, the non-general, I-mean-that-one-person-called-Arcanis you (and others like you in Magnagora). There were some great times back during IronHart, and I (and others) respect some Magnagoran players IC as a result. Some of those players come back in every once and a while. Ditching Hallifax and Celest for Magnagora and Gaudiguch is just a bad move for a variety of reasons.

Cyndarin · October 2015

Xenthos said:

Leaving is not forcing anyone to do anything. Going on lengthy diatribes, including attacking entire sections of Glomdoring because they disagreed with you, is indeed a continue attempt to force people to do what you want. That is pretty much the definition of bullying. A healthy discussion is one thing, but things like:
"you're a little full of shit" and "meaningless sassy word vomit" and "not just the pocket of people who want to RP with Hallifax in a manse over tea. Sorry that's so offensive to you." are unproductive, add nothing to the conversation, and are nothing more than an attempt to be dismissive / putting down / stifling those who don't think the way you do.

I didn't even respond to this thread until you went off the deep end, and you're accusing me (as part of "the opposition" apparently) as being inflexible and unwilling to let you disagree. I let you go for pages with your disagreement until you Celina'd it, so...

Well you're certainly selective with whose sassy comments you take offense to, and it seems since I'm not Kethaera telling you I "don't give a fuck," or her repeated mischaracterizations and I just had to "deal with it," I'm not going to reap the benefits of your support. I will opt out of the discussion rather than get frustrated with two people who are going to team up on me for responding with the same tone that was directed at me.

I really don't care to engage with either of you any further. Sorry if my tone was offensive.

Shuyin · October 2015

So who wants to team up eh.

I don't even care who, just get off my back so we can smash celest and halli.

Silvanus · October 2015

Hi. I like killing people. Glomdoring still clearly hasn't figured it out yet and lost its will to hunt. Will be a mercenary for you.

Shuyin · October 2015

Well you got 5 choices here:
1. Join OP but empty gaudi
2. Join mag again and ignore the stuff that drove you crazy
3. Become relevant enough in glom to make them decide to either force celest/halli to drop seren or join up with the dirty DGAF PKers in gaudi/mag
4. Same as 3, only you join celest then turn traitor and say it was for fain all along.
5. Become a level 101 forum warrior.

Zvoltz · October 2015

This is obviously a topic many of us are very passionate about and it is very interesting seeing everyone's perspective. Please tone down all the cursing, though. I try to be lenient about it but I think we've hit our quota for this thread.

Kaalak · October 2015

This has been pretty civil for an ooc discussion. Based on forum posts in this thread I don't detect any real virulent animosity between players on opposing sides. This is a good example of why a ooc subfora like "Tweets" can be useful to the community. People can write out their differences in opinion with out the confusion of "is this opinion real from the player or part of their RP."

Cyndarin · October 2015

But I like curse words.

Xenthos · October 2015

For me at least, cursing is a distraction; especially when used in excess, it just weakens / distorts whatever point was trying to be made.

There is a reason I do not like to swear much. It is not so much that I never do (I have and will again!). For the people who know me, though, the fact that I avoid it unnecessarily brings emphasis to what I am trying to convey when I do actually feel the need to use them.

Cyndarin · October 2015

Sometimes curse words are needed to make a point, because "Oh Sassafrass fiddlesticks," just doesn't cut it.

Xenthos · October 2015

But if every point you make (or even a significant portion of them) has a curse, then it's no longer making a point. It's just same old, same old. Expected. Unnecessary.

Cyndarin · October 2015

Good thing no one is doing that, I guess. ^#(^

Tridemon · October 2015

If you want to dissolve the alliances, you need to get people who feel the same way you do into positions of power in those orgs, which means getting elected- you need to convince a majority of people in the org (And in each guild, though that can be less important) that your way of doing things is the right way. You can't just yell at people and grump and wave your swords at them. You need to build a solid following, and the most effective way of doing that is to engage them. At which point you are engaging in RP in order to counter the RP of those who support alliances.

Kethaera · October 2015

Tridemon said:

If you want to dissolve the alliances, you need to get people who feel the same way you do into positions of power in those orgs, which means getting elected- you need to convince a majority of people in the org (And in each guild, though that can be less important) that your way of doing things is the right way. You can't just yell at people and grump and wave your swords at them. You need to build a solid following, and the most effective way of doing that is to engage them. At which point you are engaging in RP in order to counter the RP of those who support alliances.

This... exactly. If an actual case were being made for why the alliances should be dissolved- and it was presented, in character, without bullying tactics against people (not me) that are just trying to take a (rare) interest in politics... I'd be far more willing to "be reasonable" about it. As it is, that's not what's happened.

Stratas · October 2015

Silvanus said:

Hi. I like killing people. Glomdoring still clearly hasn't figured it out yet and lost its will to hunt. Will be a mercenary for you.

The Harbingers want you to start bardkilling for us. Just... let me figure out who the enemies are again.

On the topic of swearing, I've always liked this quote: "Profanity and obscenity entitle people who don't want unpleasant information to close their ears and eyes to you." ~Kurt Vonnegut, Hocus Pocus,

On alliances... 2v2v2 seems like it would be ideal, really. Why does that not happen? It seems like it always gravitates towards 3v3... or whatever the hell is happening now. Does 2v2v2 just not work, with the low playerbase or whatever? But as always, I'm (OOCly) for whatever drama keeps the game rolling. I'm sad that Halliguch didn't work out. It sounded intriguing.

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