Gear Overhaul

Estarra · November 2015

If you remove a rune from a weapon, it will clear the abilities out of the extra slots. Attaching it to another weapon, you'd need a forger to fill them in for you. (It's not really a huge expense to fill in the slots.) Forgers will also have the ability to clear a slot to make way for a new enhancement if you find you don't like what you initially chose.

Estarra · November 2015

Xenthos said:

So let's say that I have a master weapon (3 slots) and the 3 slot rune. I can put 2x of 3 different effects that I like on my two-handed weapon? Or can I only double up on one, and all the others must be disparate?

2-handed weapons have the same number of slots, though the effect an enhancement has may be different than a 1-handed. (Not sure if I'm answering your question.)

Lothringen · November 2015

Any idea of what the new artifacts will cost?

Qistrel · November 2015

What is happening to coats and cloaks? Will they have a slot on them, or become just pretty accessories?

What will happen to the Elemental Cloak artifact?

Saran · November 2015

Seconding the request to keep leathers in the game as a robe equivalent. I'd really like the option to exist.

Lerad · November 2015

With the resistances being on a capped tier system, the cloak artifact can probably remain as it is, so an extra layer of elemental protections on top of possible armour protections (just like it can layer on top of tattoo resistances).

Or at least, I hope that's the case.

If the new protections are replacing proofing, I think it'll be okay if coat/cloak proofings themselves are removed.

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I still think it's regrettable that we're not giving all warrior specs just one artifact to affect all of their specs at once, and making it so they have to buy a slot artifact for each spec (weapontype) they go with. Or a plier to move the artifact around each time they skillflex.

It would certainly require a lot more coding thought and perhaps even an overhaul of the weapons system... and if that's too much work, well, I guess that's really too bad.

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Speed boosts are usually almost always a better choice, than a damage or a bleeding choice, unless the damage or bleeding choice provide so huge a bonus that it entirely eclipses the speed bonus (in which case they'd overshadow every other possibility, which would also kill diversity of choice just as much anyway). As I mentioned, if it's outside the 10-tier balance/eq boost system, it'd be worse, because then it'd become a wildcard for report writing and balance concerns.So if you're going to keep it in, at the very least make sure they're in the balance/eq tier system. A 1/5 or something reasonable.

I'm at work now, but when I get home, I can throw out some possible additional effects to consider adding to the pool of effects, for more diversity (and hopefully add enough choices that we can remove the speed option too).

Estarra · November 2015

Lerad said:

I'm at work now, but when I get home, I can throw out some possible additional effects to consider adding to the pool of effects, for more diversity (and hopefully add enough choices that we can remove the speed option too).

We'd be very interested in new effect ideas!

Daganev · November 2015

I'm a bit confused by the comment about "doubling up" effects for the first 6 ( only 6 where listed).

Some suggestions for warrior weapon slots:

Gilded: Bonus to influencing.
Heirloom: Bonus to Family honour

Sacred: Bonus to Esteem / offering

I'd also like to suggest that the weapon name/description changes based on how its oiled.

Moi · November 2015

I'm going to be a dissenting voice here and say that the Speed Enhancement can easily be balanced with the rest. Let's say we already have the following:

Specialization Bonus: 2/4
Speed Enhancement 2/4
Lightning Stance: 2/3
Racial Bonus: 2/2

Balance bonuses would cap out at 4 for warriors, and a Speed Enhancement would be entirely optional - you could get the same benefit by being a member of a race which receives a bonus to that weapon type or just use Lightning Stance instead. The key is having weapon enhancements exist within the same Overhaul framework everything else uses. And I've seen no indication from Estarra or Ieptix that this wouldn't be the case.

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As far as weapon enhancement ideas go, how about:

Pointed - Turns any attack vs a shielded opponent (circle, pentagram, salt, etc. not faeleaf) that would normally be blocked by the shield into a raze attempt (inflicts no damage as usual, but removes shield).
Cautious - When attacking a denizen, you must append the DEADLY modifier on your STRIKE command, or your attacks will stop short of lethal damage. Useful for those influencers with twitchy sword arms and anyone who wants to (non-fatally) beat a denizen for misbehavior.

Saran · November 2015

Daganev said:

I'm a bit confused by the comment about "doubling up" effects for the first 6 ( only 6 where listed).

Some suggestions for warrior weapon slots:

Gilded: Bonus to influencing.
Heirloom: Bonus to Family honour
Sacred: Bonus to Esteem / offering

I'd also like to suggest that the weapon name/description changes based on how its oiled.

Part of wishes there would be a line like

"This is an heirloom of the Starleaf family" but like nicer.

Rivius · November 2015

Eh, I'd rather these slots be filled in with forging runes or some other forging commodity instead. Not sure why we'd need to now rely on alchemists to customize our weapons... Also, will the current mallet of forging then be retired or what? Are we going to have two mallets now?

Daganev · November 2015

Rivius said:

Eh, I'd rather these slots be filled in with forging runes or some other forging commodity instead. Not sure why we'd need to now rely on alchemists to customize our weapons... Also, will the current mallet of forging then be retired or what? Are we going to have two mallets now?

Hmm good point. Is coal going to be removed because of the forging process, or can we fill the slots with coal runes like we do now?

Tridemon · November 2015

Coal is also used in cooking and arts. Coal isn't going anywhere.

Lerad · November 2015

Iytha said:

I'm going to be a dissenting voice here and say that the Speed Enhancement can easily be balanced with the rest. Let's say we already have the following:

Specialization Bonus: 2/4
Speed Enhancement 2/4
Lightning Stance: 2/3
Racial Bonus: 2/2

Balance bonuses would cap out at 4 for warriors, and a Speed Enhancement would be entirely optional - you could get the same benefit by being a member of a race which receives a bonus to that weapon type or just use Lightning Stance instead. The key is having weapon enhancements exist within the same Overhaul framework everything else uses. And I've seen no indication from Estarra or Ieptix that this wouldn't be the case.

Your argument doesn't actually give a good reason to keep speed bonuses on weapons. First of all, ignoring the theoretical numbers, what you're basically saying is that if we provide enough speed bonuses from other places (or cap the weapon version at a low enough level that it can be met by other sources) then the weapon version will become not so essential. But you realize, then, that implicit in that argument is the premise where reaching whatever cap the weapon version of the speed bonus will be capped is the norm. Whether the cap is at 2, or 4, or 6, or 8, as long as there are other ways of reaching that cap, sure, we can give up the weapon speed bonus, and go for others. That shows, very simply, how important the speed bonus is - as long as the weapon offers a speed bonus (cap) that can't be achieved without it otherwise, it will be grabbed with both arms and all three legs.

That's not diversity, that's "can I hit the speed the weaponslot bonus gives?" Whatever cap the speed bonus is capped at - that becomes the requirement. You're right about one thing: it can be "balanced". The admin can look at a (theoretical) over-performing set up and deliberately tweak its power output by lowering (or raising) the speed cap available to that set-up, through a variety of ways. That doesn't change the fact that the weaponslot bonus will need to either capped so low that it is literally useless (ie. have no effect even if you took it), or it becomes a must-have.

On that note, I want to add a little more caution to a secondary implication in your numbers (which are also theoretical, I know) wherein I see the word "race". Please do not make the racial weapon bonuses a speed modifier. The entire (okay, not entire, but a big part of it) point of the racial overhaul has been to, at the very least, remove (or at least heavily dilute) the aslaran-master-race phenomenon - and let any class/archetype play as (ideally) any race, at least without feeling like they are purposely cutting off an arm. The pros of rebalancing all the races on the premise of removing the overwhelming influence of speed bonuses (and the maluses that had to be tied to them to balance them) were what outweighed the cons of losing the stats reflecting racial lore. Racial bonuses that affect speed will take that and throw it down the chute - every pureblade will now turn to being a <whatever-race> pureblade so that they can forgo the speed upgrade on their forging slot for a damage slot etc etc.

I will note that I was against the 10-tiered speed system in the first place, but I have come to accept Estarra's argument back then that it would at least help spice things up and not make everything so cookie-cutter boring; and indeed, it does add some variation - but only precisely because races were left out of it. Okay, fine, maybe I am still a little bitter about it (I'm still kicking the dead horse here, after all) but regardless of my obsession and vendetta, I assure you that tying races to inherent speed bonuses for certain classes and archetypes is a sure way to waste a lot of coding effort - we might as well have skipped the racial overhaul entirely.

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Some ideas for weaponslot bonuses (note that I'm thinking mostly from a pvp perspective, not a rp or pve perspective):

Iytha's auto-raze is pretty cool idea, I have a variation of that I had an inspiration (ie. stolen) from elsewhere:

Finesse - A weapon with this property will not rebound when hitting a rebound aura, but also will not strip or penetrate it. Basically acts as though you swung normally, but without any effect.

Fineese (version 2) - A weapon with this property will not incur a backlash when hitting a shielded target (no eq-loss, basically same as above)

Vorpal - A weapon with this property has a 20% chance to ignore 33% of the target's total armour (rounded down).

Vorpal (version 2) - A weapon with this property will ignore more armour the more damaged the bodypart that was hit is.

(Ignores 15% at heavy, 30% at critical (rounded down))

Sparkling - A weapon with this property has a chance to distract the target by giving amnesia when it hits their "core" bodyparts (head, chest, gut) depending on how damaged the bodypart is.

(15% at heavy, 30% at critical)

Barbed - A weapon with this property has a chance to incur an involuntary spasm in the target by throwing the attacked limb (arms and legs only) off balance for 1s (doesn't stack with any existing off-bal) depending on how damaged the bodypart is.

(15% at heavy, 30% at critical)

Twisted - A weapon with this property will deal an extra 250 (adjust as needed) bleed when it is used to impale a target. Will also force the target to yell AAARRRGHGHHH!".

Brutal - A weapon with this property will cause the target to take heavier falls when they are proned, dealing an extra 50 bruise when an attack with the weapon prones a target.

Slightly-more-curved-than-usual [Slashing weapons only] - A weapon with this property can be used to do a special maneuver upon mangling a bodypart. Deals 33% of current bleed dealt as immediate damage when the weapon pushes a bodypart from heavy to critical wounds. 15s cooldown per weapon.

Slightly-more spiked than usual [Blunt weapons only] - A weapon with this property can be used to do a special maneuver upon mangling a bodypart. Deals 33% of current bruise dealt as immediate damage when the weapon pushes a bodypart from heavy to critical wounds. 15s cooldown per weapon.

The numbers above can (and should) be tweaked as needed, of course. Also, I avoided doing any wound bonuses (so I did mostly damage bonuses) but once we have a better grasp of how the wounding rate balance is, we can have a better idea of how, and if, to add any wounding bonuses etc. (could convert some of the damage bonuses above to wound bonuses. Extra wounds on impale, etc)

Enyalida · November 2015

Wasn't the relative difference of a speed weapon's maxed speed and a non-speed weapon's max speed very small with the old system?

Lerad · November 2015

There was no difference in max stats for all of the old weapons, but instead, there were different minimums. "Speed" weapons basically had the lowest minimums for damage/prec - allowing them to, if they choose, pump everything into speed, and then choose which of the other two (damage for bashing, prec for pvp) they wanted to buff up to an acceptable level.

A non speed weapon could therefore have exactly the same speed as a speed weapon - but they will have to give up either damage stats or prec stats for the other. The only variations in speed came from compensating for (or having extra points from) racial speed. An aslaran could put less points in their weapon's speed to get the same speed as a neutral balance race, but a tae'dae would have to put in extra points to get the same speed - the damage/precision rises and drops accordingly.

Speed is king - every weapon stat setup in Lusternia currently (and probably in the future) is centered around speed. The quintessential question for all warriors looking to min-max beyond the quick and easy "standard stat weapons" sold in shops is this: "How many points do I need to put into speed to reach my sweet spot?" (accounting for personal fighting style and/or lag and/or race) Literally nothing else matters - whatever points is left over gets put into damage or precision as needed, both are otherwise dump stats.

Daganev · November 2015

Wait, rebounding isn't getting removed?

Lerad · November 2015

Is it? I'm actually not sure. If it is, just go with version 2, I guess!

Daganev · November 2015

@Lerad are your suggestions supposed to be instead of the original 6 or only in addition to? Some of them sound like htey would make some of the original 6 obsolete.

Lerad · November 2015

In addition to, was the way I envisioned it. If the numbers are too high on my suggestions, tweaking the rewards down to be comparable or tweaking the conditions to be more difficult (higher wounds, not based off prone, etc) could help.

They are also thrown out as a brainstorming exercise, having all of them available might result in combinations creating unforseen overpoweredness etc, so I leave it to whoever is making the decisions to cherry pick or mangle and pull apart and put back my suggestions. I don't really expect them to stay as I described them.

Synkarin · November 2015

I guess that does bring into question how racial specialization bonuses would work on new weapons.

Like would Orclach just hit faster and do more damage with Pureblade? How exactly would that work?

-- weirdly, I signed off as if I was writing an email - awkward

Ushaara · November 2015

If the damage type weapon runes are also being retired, a slot that lets you partially alter the damage type is another option, if that hasn't been thrown out already.

Though really I'd prefer if this could be done with poison blend coatings.

- Pyrotoxin + Senso blend makes an oil which turns weapon into a flaming weapon for X amount of time.
- Saxitin + Mactans blend makes an oil which makes weapons ice-cold, etc.

Qistrel · November 2015

The damage altering (33%) is a benefit of the new forging artifact, Mallet of Enchantment. Though I would prefer it as a slot myself.

Out of interest, do you need to set that when the weapon is forged, or can it be changed afterwards by the mallet? I like my current chain...

Estarra · November 2015

Thanks, Lerad! I listed your effect suggestions in our design document (no promises). I have to say I like the word "vorpal"!

Ideas from anyone else? Also will consider suggestions for armour effects!

Ieptix · November 2015

Ayisdra said:

@Estarra (or @Ieptix ) - So, with greatrobes (and splendors), they no longer will have an armor number, but just have 'enchanted' and 'not enchanted' if I'm understanding this right?

Would knots be a stacking thing (if I had 5 magic knots, would I have a 5/6 resistance)?

While I know it is probably a long shot - but what would be the chances of an artifact of an one knot for influencing and damage resist (one knot that gives the buff for all five influencing, one knot that gives all 10 damage resists)?

Robes will have an inherent armour protection, listed in the OP, and then enchanters will be able to fill their slots with the different armour effects. Knots of the same type cannot stack, but you can have knots of different types on the armour.

Leolamins said:

What is the intent for the dwarven forging runes?

AFAIK the plan is to remove them, and basically move their effects into this new system. As such, the speed enhancement isn't really a new effect, it's just being moved from the forging rune to the new system.

Lerad said:

If it is incorporated into the balance/eq tier system, it's at least slightly more palatable (we can examine the tier system and tweak that to reduce the gap between those with 0 and those with 10 if/when needed) but still, the point about the enchantment being pretty much permanently "required" will still stand.

Gear overhaul is great, but I do urge the admin to keep monks in the forefront after this gear overhaul, and convert monks fully into the new physical afflictions system.

The speed buff system is specifically for buffs to all balance/eq uses; there isn't a way to have buffs only work for a specific attack, and so it is necessary that this work separately from the buff system. Again, however, this is basically replacing the speed dwarven rune, and no "new" speed is being added here.

Monks will be using the new physical afflictions, I just haven't figured out how I'm going to slot them in yet.

Xenthos said:

So let's say that I have a master weapon (3 slots) and the 3 slot rune. I can put 2x of 3 different effects that I like on my two-handed weapon? Or can I only double up on one, and all the others must be disparate?

Second question:
How do I make "secondary" weapons permanent under the new paradigm? Is it even necessary any more to have multiple sets of weapons? It kind of seems like it might not be.

In that case, pliers have just become even less valuable than they were-- what happens if I unattach the slot rune from one weapon to move it to another? Do the things on those slots go with the rune? Do the effects just vanish? Are pliers now meaningless for warriors?

For the slots/rune/stacking, we haven't actually decided if we're going to allow that; the bit that specifically allows it was a holdover from our discussion/design doc, you'll note that in the artifact section it specifies that we may or may not allow that. Either way, if we do go for it, you'll be able to double-up on a number of different effects equal to the rune number; a level 1 rune would let you use one effect twice, a level 3 rune would allow you to choose three effects to double up on, if so chosen.

Removing a slot rune will wipe all the slots on the weapon; slots are tied to the weapon, not to the rune, so they won't transfer between weapons that way.

Synkarin said:

I guess that does bring into question how racial specialization bonuses would work on new weapons.

Like would Orclach just hit faster and do more damage with Pureblade? How exactly would that work?

-- weirdly, I signed off as if I was writing an email - awkward

Race bonuses give a (quite small) buff to both damage and speed.

Qistrel said:

The damage altering (33%) is a benefit of the new forging artifact, Mallet of Enchantment. Though I would prefer it as a slot myself.

Out of interest, do you need to set that when the weapon is forged, or can it be changed afterwards by the mallet? I like my current chain...

Damage type adjustments are slot enhancements that require the forgee have the new mallet to apply.

Qistrel · November 2015

Ieptix said:

Qistrel said:

The damage altering (33%) is a benefit of the new forging artifact, Mallet of Enchantment. Though I would prefer it as a slot myself.

Out of interest, do you need to set that when the weapon is forged, or can it be changed afterwards by the mallet? I like my current chain...

Damage type adjustments are slot enhancements that require the forgee have the new mallet to apply.

Cool, that makes more sense to me now.

Tarkenton · November 2015

Is the existing mallet going to be completely replaced by the new one? If it isn't, then what is the point of the mallet of forging if the weapon/armor stats are going away?

Edit: monk weapons, same setup?

Estarra · November 2015

Mallet of Forging would be retired.

Lerad · November 2015

Ieptix said:

The speed buff system is specifically for buffs to all balance/eq uses; there isn't a way to have buffs only work for a specific attack, and so it is necessary that this work separately from the buff system. Again, however, this is basically replacing the speed dwarven rune, and no "new" speed is being added here.

The old speed bonuses for weapons were tied intricately to weapon stats. The racial weapon bonus, the dwarven coal runes etc all added speed statpoints that allowed the warrior to re-allocate points to damage/prec. They tied into that meta of feeling your way around for optimal speed stat and dumping everything else into damage or prec depending on your needs. They existed in the past as part of the system, not outside of it.

Since we're removing weapon stats now, keeping speed bonuses on racial weapon bonuses and (the equivalent of) coal rune bonuses will then become "new" speed from this perspective. Yes, I'm quibbling and splitting hairs a little, but I really do feel its better to do away with it.

Weapon effect customisations based off a slot mechanic is great - giving warriors a way to customise or buff their fighting styles (not the ability, but their metagame, strategical/tactical fighting style) should be the way to go with those offensive buffs instead of just going into speed. It's universally useful, yes, and that's actually why we should avoid it. Tie the new customisations to specific, situational effects. So people can choose that buff if their fighting strategies tend toward that certain situation, or go for something else for whatever fits them. For example, make the orcs PB bonus give them a bonus when they hit a bleeding threshold on their target, bloodlust or whatever, that gives them a limited time, minor effect they can use to capitalize on both the bleeding PB style. Fits in thematically as well, but it becomes only situationally useful for those who like to go the bleeding route. Those who don't can easily choose another race, and change up their weapon buffs to provide situational support to those other strategies.

Of course, this implementation premises that all of the specs have at least two, or maybe more, viable and comparable strategies. Don't have to be unique between all specs (with the bleeding effect on page 1, we could maybe see bleeding bonecrushers!) but definitely more than one so that players have meaningful choices to make. But isn't that what we're aiming for? A vibrant strategy meta where warriors (and other classes) can customise their styles, have fun with whatever they choose? Go for situational effects that proc off specific conditions, and give them a whole slew to choose from that caters to different strategical niches. That lets players think and strategize and play with their set ups beyond telling themselves, "Okay, first, spend everything I can afford on as much speed as I can get... once I have that baseline..."

Tarkenton · November 2015

For me, it's always been about 240 speed (approx 3s balance time iirc, maybe 3.5?) Then dumpo into precision. In this new system, it'll be stack as much speed as possible, then whatever gets my to my kill condition the fastest. Seeing some concrete numbers on how knighthood stances, weapon runes, Artifacts and the like would balance out would be nice.

Something to sic Baelor on during his FO4 breaks?

Gear Overhaul

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