What can I do against this

Silvanus · June 2016

Right, most classes have had group oriented skills nerfed - I thought we established this.

The only objection has been what you would do in group combat, and I'll tell you what you do.

You go back to Balestone spamming, since apparently Damage was complained about in defense of Aeon.

Yarith · June 2016

I also raised the issue where timewarps can't be built without either hindering curing via aeon or applying spiritual afflictions rapidly, the only one of which researchers can inflict is aeon or pacifism with tarot.

Most classes also have kill methods which synergise with groups such as manakills or conditional instakills, or they contribute a lot of single target damage. Illuminati are in the same boat as researchers, excepting that they output more mental afflictions than researchers will ever output aeon once an immunity has been put in place.

Edit: We should just remove warps/insanity or change their mechanics.

Silvanus · June 2016

Yes, that sounds like something that Hallifax will have to Envoy, the Moondancers have already started to move on their own way with the Metawake pact.

You are asking for the meta to not be changed to suit your needs instead of changing your needs to fit the new meta.

Yes, you have tried to make the counter-argument that this is a partisan issue and one sided, and you may be right, however, in the new theme of Overhaul, most of these group changes for combat have come in the past 5 years. Crucifix wasn't changed until 2011, same with NSB and choke, blackout and stun immunity is pretty recent, and just 2 years ago we had 24 STR Warriors shieldstunning to keep you perma-stunned (and then -Woods doing the same thing).

It's also not like Nihilists, Cacophony and Illuminati make excellent use of Aeon as well, and I can't think of a single kill scenario for a Nihilist that does not involve Aeon. You will not be worse off then the Nihilists, who, if losing aeon is as bad as you claim, will lose their last offensive move outside of dominating someone to get drunk (and dominating sleeplock, the best sleeplock in the game in my opinion, better than MD, but they'll lose that too).

It's called an Overhaul for a reason, things will be broken.

Dylara · June 2016

Hey, as a compromise for a downgrade in aeon there exists the possibility of including better hinderin affliction within reason.

Synkarin · June 2016

Shatterplex will bring someone instantly to massive timewarp. One move, no power. You don't need to 'build' timewarp, you need to 'build' rubies. Don't need aeon to build rubies.

a 3 second immunity will have zero impact on your ability to build timewarp. You need to stick aeon long enough to pull off shatter/timequake. You don't need to stick aeon long enough to build timewarp. Lets stop playing this game and try to actually try to put together an argument that actually makes sense rather than just continuing to dig where there's no dirt.

Yarith · June 2016

Not at all. If you read the previous pages I already admitted that I was a fan of removing aeon so please do not put words in my mouth.

The difference is that nihilists, cacophony, and illuminati opt into aeon. Their kits do not revolve around aeon and have the potential to achieve their ends completely without it. If you can find a viable method for a researcher to achieve a kill without applying aeon, be my guest.

Not only is this change being pushed but there's also the introduction of a serverside aeonqueue curing, no? If you can make a decent argument to combat the building of timewarps, the ability to pull off shatterplex solo, or how researchers will be just as relevant, by my guest.

Ciaran · June 2016

edit: Ack, in response to Lerad...

Eh, I'm not offended, nor should you be.

It's just frustrating seeing someone who has good aeon curing leveraging how most people totally suck at curing aeon to rally public support for nerfing it.

Look at how this thread started!?? It's someone not curing aeon even though they could have for the WHOLE log. I don't think she EVER had asthma.

And now we have this thread full of people beating the drum, even though they can't even cure it right, and that's on them. Yes this will hurt Hallifax more than any org because aeon is the backbone of our collective offense. Yes it was proposed by the org that fights against Hallifax.

You raise valid points, proving that aeon is a strong skill. I don't see any proof why it needs to be nerfed. If the problem with aeon is locking you out of attacking, forcing you just to cure aeon, this solution does nothing to solve that problem.

If that's not the problem, then what is the problem with aeon?

Yarith · June 2016

Tell me how you're going to pull off timequake with shatterplex solo when someone can send a queue to the server to eat dust then smoke steam.

Silvanus · June 2016

Yarith said:

Not at all. If you read the previous pages I already admitted that I was a fan of removing aeon so please do not put words in my mouth.

The difference is that nihilists, cacophony, and illuminati opt into aeon. Their kits do not revolve around aeon and have the potential to achieve their ends completely without it. If you can find a viable method for a researcher to achieve a kill without applying aeon, be my guest.

Not only is this change being pushed but there's also the introduction of a serverside aeonqueue curing, no? If you can make a decent argument to combat the building of timewarps, the ability to pull off shatterplex solo, or how researchers will be just as relevant, by my guest.

Nihilists do not have a way to kill without Aeon. I'm not even sure they really have a way to kill with Aeon, to be honest.

Cacophony are somewhat in the same boat, but fare a bit better now that plague afflictions are mostly on the same balance. The only way I ever killed as a Caco was through Aeon or Hunger, both ways will no longer exist in the new Overhaul. I never got to play with Plague affs on the same balance.

A 3 second aeon immunity does not impact an Institute ability to kill 1v1 at all, because there is in no way you should be getting eq/bal back before 3 seconds if you just applied Aeon, for any skill. If it works that way, it should be nerfed. From aeon to cure takes 2 seconds, you do not need to apply it 1 second after, you could've just beast breathe amnesia to keep aeon stuck for you to recover balance, that is what I was forced to do sometimes as a Cacophony.

The problem with Aeon is as Lerad said. Give any class aeon, and you can make the entire class aeon-centric.

Synkarin · June 2016

Tell me how an aeon immunity is even relevant to that problem? Because it pretty clearly has been stated several times why it's not.

(Ciaran already laid out options earlier, beast amnesia. Silvanus suggested spitting dulak. You can also spit chansu extending times. I also fail to see how serverside vs client side really makes that much of a difference? We're talking ms of difference here)

Synkarin · June 2016

@Ciaran - the immunity does solve the problem. It prevents you from being instantly put back into aeon after curing out, giving you time to catch up on curing. You know, the same way stun immunity works.

Silvanus · June 2016

This report is basically the exact same as the Stun report, back when -Woods and Veyrzhul were shieldstunning people into nearly perma-stun.

Yarith · June 2016

Sure, w/e. Give aeon a 3 sec immunity.

You're right, researchers have absolutely 0 reliance on aeon. My mistake.
Edit: Same with moonies. They don't rely on aeon.

Ciaran · June 2016

Aeon spam is demonstrably worse than old shieldstun spam though...

First: You can send commands through (including TUMBLE) for example.

Second: You can't just spam aeon, otherwise you'll waste balances, they'll cure out of aeon, and as soon as they do, they can get another round of curing in (including TUMBLE)

Third: It takes more than one person to coordinate locking someone. It requires tracking afflictions and curing, stacking affs only available to certain classes, etc. etc. etc.

It's far more complicated, it's quite different, and not broken like constant stun.

Silvanus · June 2016

Since you want to argue about not being able to kill as an Institute, I hope you take up the same cause and attitude for any -Woods class, they haven't been able to kill since the Stun report (and then the Double Haegl report and the nerf to Chade).

While you are at it, you can take a swing by the Nihilist, Symph and Moondancer camps to see them after they may lose their Aeon and Sleeplocks in one month.

So go ahead, keep saying woe is me, for some classes, it falls on deaf ears (ha, that's a pun. Earwort and gust and I'll beat any Bard). Figure out an envoy to change it, someone suggesting finding a way to give bard aurics to Institute, that would work well.

Look I am not saying it is harder to coordinate and keep someone perma-aeoned then it was perma-stunned, that's not the problem. The problem is that it is possible to keep someone perma'd anything.

Yarith · June 2016

I suppose hearing will be gaining an immunity window next after earache ends then?

Synkarin · June 2016

Aeon immunity ~= no aeon.

It's on you to explain your position Yarith, if you can't sufficiently explain it without people being able to clearly refute how the immunity doesn't affect what you are saying, that's on you, not us. You're a science guy, you need to look at the evidence. If someone is curing aeon and you are spending balance re-applying it, they're going to just cure out again before you get balance back. I don't know how you can dispute that. If they are staying under aeon to cure out affter 10 seconds so passive aeonfield fires again, well, if you're keeping someone aeon locked for 7-10 secs and not killing them, that's on you again (you only need about 4 secs of aeon to pull off shatterplex-timequake (which oh, you can right now use stratagems to pull this off and that's apparently a huge deal).

Silvanus · June 2016

That was already done.

It's called Earache.

Xenthos · June 2016

Yarith said:

I suppose hearing will be gaining an immunity window next after earache ends then?

I don't understand. Does being able to hear a bard's songs stop you from doing anything except eating earwort (to be unable to hear the bard's songs)? You can't do anything else until you've eaten earwort?

I am 99% sure that is not the case, and if a bard blanknotes me I can still hit him/her in the face & cure at the same time. I'm not suddenly locked into the defensive with exactly one avenue to pursue.

Dylara · June 2016

Ciaran said:

Look at how this thread started!?? It's someone not curing aeon even though they could have for the WHOLE log. I don't think she EVER had asthma.

And now we have this thread full of people beating the drum, even though they can't even cure it right, and that's on them. Yes this will hurt Hallifax more than any org because aeon is the backbone of our collective offense. Yes it was proposed by the org that fights against Hallifax.

This thread started because I got stuck and did not know how to cure better and did not know/understand what my system was doing during the raid. Yes. I can and should cure better, I can't do it when I don't know how, don't know how to adjust my system to be better. The aeon was so stuck on me and my system was spaamming me enough with stuff it shouldn't have been that I had trouble.

Which is why I started this thread. For help. I didn't ask for any nerfs. You, and everyone else, hijacked my thread asking for -combat help- to beat your own drums for and against aeon.

I don't even know why I bothered asking, I should have just asked Synkarin privately for help and sent him the log. I guess I know for the future, if I post logs showing I'm stuck against the North's attacks, I should prepare myself for a six page thread about the skills used against me.

Synkarin · June 2016

(to be fair, I did help her)

Silvanus · June 2016

To be fair to Dylara, the report for Aeon was put up long before this post. The report for Aeon (Report 1489, all of you can finally look at it now) has been up for nearly a month.

Yarith · June 2016

Fine. You're right guys, aeonics will retain its full value after the addition of an aeon immunity. Researchers are in a perfect state to pull off timequake from shatterplex.

You're also correct in saying that researchers can achieve everything they need to without using aeon at all. Timequake is fine without applying aeon and you can definitely pull it off without using aeon because aeon is not central to the Researcher class.

Very productive thread.

Dylara · June 2016

Synkarin said:

(to be fair, I did help her)

Yes you did, which is why I noted next time I wont bother posting a log here and just ask you privately.

Silvanus · June 2016

Yarith said:

Fine. You're right guys, aeonics will retain it's full value after the addition of an aeon immunity. Researchers are in a perfect state to pull off timequake from shatterplex.

You're also correct in saying that researchers can achieve everything they need to without using aeon at all. Timequake is fine without applying aeon and you can definitely pull it off without using aeon because aeon is not central to the Researcher class.

Very productive thread.

Go through all your skills that give aeon, and test their eq/bal recovery.

If that number is:

A.) x < 3 ---> This will have an impact on the skill, and the skill should be nerfed to 3 second recovery

B.) x => 3 ---> Will have no impact on your ability to apply aeon. Continue on as normal.

Synkarin · June 2016

I don't know what else to say if you're going to continue going off on a tangent that's not even close to what's happening. Aeon isn't being removed. This isn't 'aeon control' where any kind of aeon legislation means we're taking away you're aeon.

Twytch · June 2016

Wait, we have people who are saying Researchers can get buffs to compensate the aeon loss, and people who are saying Researchers won't because the class will still be fine. Mixed messages.

In any case, arguing that Researchers will still have a lot to contribute to group combat due to other skills in the kit is somewhat incorrect. Balestone damage scales down and is negligible past 3 people, not to mention it costs power. Harmonics gems drain a negligible amount of h/m/e (they can be completely negated by mercy, perfection, beauty enchantments, plus some left over). They were at this level back when they affected all personal enemies in the room; they were changed to 1 target only but remained at sub-enchantment regen rates. MendingStone is arguably a very nice heal, but it doesn't contribute to the kill.

I won't lie, Researchers get some nice survivability (it's not as much as people seem to think it is, but it's not nothing). These, however, are worthless when Researchers are unable to bring any considerable firepower to a fight (considering aeon will be getting immunity). I suppose Tarot Hangman will be the next spammed ability?

Silvanus · June 2016

But if they were spamming aeon, this would have no impact on their ability to spam it.

Lerad · June 2016

Okay, I will admit that I played a big role in derailing this thread into talking about aeon rather than just about the aeon curing. While I usually feel that a forums is a place that such "derails" are not really that critical (because what is a forums if not a place to explore all the different tangents that arise through the course of discussion?) I recognise I have a personal agenda, and it's not helpful to Dylara's original intent when she opened the thread.

That said, I think there is a disconnect in the parsing of the posts that have been in this thread. I have, from my very first post in this thread, laid out the fact that my comments and posts on this topic grapple with the argument(s) of whether or not aeon should exist as a mechanic, and the pros and cons of aeon as a combat affliction. In fact, I clarified later on that my stance is "Unlike Sidd and Celina" (verbatim) - where they may be advocating immunity as the first step and a look-and-see from there on, I have always been arguing for aeon's removal outright.

My first comment on the aeon immunity report was to state that I do not feel the report goes far enough.

In this thread, my arguments have revolved around aeon as a mechanic and its impact, and how I feel that it has no place in the meta. Sidd and Celina are more willing to compromise, and to weaken it in relation to how the changing environment has increased both its impact over time (become more potent) and how it has become more prevalent over time (through both adding of more classes who use it, and of more combatants actually using it more often). Celina's report is one that doesn't give a compensation in return, because its premise is that aeon has been buffed over due to the Overhaul changes, and that it therefore needs to be brought down back in line.

My argument is one that pushes for the complete removal of aeon (not a nerf, but the complete deletion) and which suggests that replacements or reworking of the core mechanics are instated in return.

If you're mixing the arguments together, or cherry-picking between them to build us as a partisan group, you're going to get the disconnect of mixed messages. My arguments may agree in principle and direction with what Celina and Sidd are arguing for, but they are rooted from, and I have repeatedly stated this, a personal perspective. By that very fact alone, I am not "leveraging how most people totally suck at curing aeon to rally public support for nerfing it". In fact, in amongst the first few posts I wrote in this thread, I stated that my argument of aeon being too strong is based off the assumption that the target's curing is pingless and 100% perfect. It might not have been Dylara making this thread at all, and my argument would not have changed.

Incidentally, that is why:

Ciaran said:

...
If the problem with aeon is locking you out of attacking, forcing you just to cure aeon, this solution does nothing to solve that problem...

the "this solution" you're talking about doesn't address my concerns that aeon is locking victims out of attacking. Because the "this solution" - ie. aeon immunity, is not my solution. My "solution" is the replacement of aeon as a mechanic.

On the topic of aeon immunity compared to the 24 str shieldstun issue that Silvanus brought up:

Ciaran said:

Aeon spam is demonstrably worse than old shieldstun spam though...

First: You can send commands through (including TUMBLE) for example.

Second: You can't just spam aeon, otherwise you'll waste balances, they'll cure out of aeon, and as soon as they do, they can get another round of curing in (including TUMBLE)

Third: It takes more than one person to coordinate locking someone. It requires tracking afflictions and curing, stacking affs only available to certain classes, etc. etc. etc.

It's far more complicated, it's quite different, and not broken like constant stun.

The second and third points is true with stun as well, actually. It's not an aeon-only disadvantage that differentiates it from stun and makes stun better. You can't just spam stun and hope for a win - it was expressly nerfed to be unable to do so. In fact, the third point is one of the reasons that led to stun immunity - that stun was able to be chained (coordination needed too) made it broken. It just wasn't apparent until the -woods shieldstun spam incident because stun was, and is, so rare. To quote myself:

This prevalence of aeon that was given to Hallifax has showed us (or at least, me) how aeon itself is a problem.

Stun without immunity was always a problem - it wasn't picked up until someone abused it. Aeon, by contrast, appears often that it is far easier for people to experience it, examine its conditions, rationalize, and subsequently realize that it is a problem. A comparison between stun and aeon is not entirely fair - stun remains the best affliction in the game, tying with unconsciousness. However, I have listed the ways in wihch they are relatable as well:

Lerad said:
...
Stun is, compared to aeon, much more powerful in many respects. It blocks all commands not indirectly, but directly. It is a mechanical inability to do anything to interact with the game. It cannot, however, be stacked on itself or extended in any way. This give-and-take, and the absolute lack of stun when compared to the prevalence of aeon, makes it far more balanced as a finisher, or as a disrupter affliction. The very small windows with which it can be used effectively, and the way it punishes the thoughtless user by reseting their offense is exactly what is described in the last page or so of this thread, and really is a perfectly acceptable drawback to such a powerful disable.

Aeon, in comparison, is an indirect command denial by the way it disrupts curing priority. If you want to choose to emote while aeoned, you can. But you won't, because it's more efficient to cure out of aeon, and then cure everything else that can be cured simultaneously AND emote at the same time. I have repeatedly said that aeon is "effectively" a stun, simply because the only logical response to aeon is to do nothing (other than curing aeon) until it is cured.
...

Yarith · June 2016

Thing is I'm pretty sure the suggested change won't even address what it's trying to address.

Removing aeon is a much better alternative.

What can I do against this

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