Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

Mboagn · July 2020

Going by Thalkros's idea, we'd finally have a Beauty TA.

Eve · July 2020

I agree with a lot of the things that have been said tonight. (I don't want to flood the page with quotes)

I have a solution. I mean, hey its not combat related so it'll probably get shot down immediately- but oh well. Here goes:

What if instead of giving out the grand prize we gave out something that hasn't -ever- nor will not ever be given out again?
Something to say hey, yes. you. You did a bang up job and we're sorry if the way the game functioning caused you to lose an event.
Why not a special honours line for the event, heck let him write the thing himself if he would so like. (pending approval of course)

Xenthos · July 2020

Can you please explain how you feel that the second suggestion makes Ixion any less of a TA? In this scenario, Ixion would be equivalent to both Yendor & me as a TA, but Choros would have gained a little extra perk that he shared with his team.

I think I missed your saying that being anything less than a full TA mechanics-wise would be a violation of your lines, but it is useful to know.

Thalkros · July 2020

Mboagn said:

Going by Thalkros's idea, we'd finally have a Beauty TA.

It's been my master plan all along All hail Lady PEEPALINE

Shango · July 2020

@Xenthos if you're really so hard up about denying Ixion over all else...offer to sacrifice your own Ascended status to block his through the course of the Event, never able to be raised again. Doesn't sound very fair or pleasing an idea though, does it? No of course not. Be aware of how you come off with this constant bickering and needling.

Though it is true, after opening up Domoth Powers to everyone (a move I do actually like, for all that I'm a Vernal myself and thus the only benefit is a bit more weight, Clairsentience, inherent Flight and being a Domoth mule)...Ascendant has lost a bit of its luster. So in THAT light, one of your own allies making the point, why are you so hard lined on this angle? Beyond denying Ixion by any means, of course. The admin aim for fair, to which you even admit yourself that the solution is just that. How are you going to turn around after admitting such yet still push for otherwise? You're saying then that fairness is not your goal here?

And while this may seem off-topic, it's the crux of why this thread has gone on and on for 5 pages now and seems to be needing addressing. Either accept the decision as has been made, or offer a CONSTRUCTIVE idea...that is still fair to all involved...and be done with this, please?

Aramel · July 2020

Because the RP significance of TA is still there, even if the mechanical significance of TA is less so.

Orael · July 2020

Xenthos said:

Can you please explain how you feel that the second suggestion makes Ixion any less of a TA? In this scenario, Ixion would be equivalent to both Yendor & me as a TA, but Choros would have gained a little extra perk that he shared with his team.
I think I missed your saying that being anything less than a full TA mechanics-wise would be a violation of your lines, but it is useful to know.

Because it means that you're getting something and they're not because they had bad luck with lag that potentially ruined their chances. It's back to the same thought process as why I don't think 2 TA's for your side is fair when only giving one to them.

Xenthos · July 2020

@Shango : You're way behind here, I accepted that he was being raised a while ago, right now I'm just trying to determine what Orael is even willing to accept as ideas, using 20-questions apparently.

Malayn · July 2020

I get that people are unhappy, but this argument is becoming cyclical.

Both sides end up with a TA. Rather than try to convince someone of something @Xenthos
why don't you give an option that is manageable and not some mechanical impact? "A perk to all of our people" is a no. "A better improvement to Choros" would somehow benefit him for having the luck of lag (as stated by Orael). Look at something that isn't just trying to one up people and you may actually get it. Otherwise, we should just acknowledge it and move on.

Xenthos seems to be the main one driving this whole thing to continue, and he had a special event to get his old name back.

Aramel · July 2020

Orael said:

Xenthos said:

Can you please explain how you feel that the second suggestion makes Ixion any less of a TA? In this scenario, Ixion would be equivalent to both Yendor & me as a TA, but Choros would have gained a little extra perk that he shared with his team.
I think I missed your saying that being anything less than a full TA mechanics-wise would be a violation of your lines, but it is useful to know.

Because it means that you're getting something and they're not because they had bad luck with lag that potentially ruined their chances. It's back to the same thought process as why I don't think 2 TA's for your side is fair when only giving one to them.

Just to be clear here- we were never taking away that Parhelion got to 3600 first.

I may be misunderstanding this, but Orael, you've stated that you didn't mean to take away the "win", or to insinuate that Shadowlight didn't "win", but I'm not seeing how that dovetails with this insistence that only IHC had bad luck with lag, or that the people who got to 3600 first shouldn't get something above and beyond in recognition of that fact.

Maligorn · July 2020

A whipped cream on top for Parhelion might be just the thing. Dunno what it would be though.

Aramel · July 2020

Chessboard for Halli for a year? I've been envying Glom's chessboard for a while!

Sapphira · July 2020

Maybe giving Parhelion a special honour line or rp perk would make sense rather than trying to take things off ixion. Give him something a little extra to honour being the first (i assume before the admin realised just HOW crippling the lag was).

Afollia · July 2020

So, reading this, instead of focusing on diminishing the other side ? Why not just hold something special to celebrate each alliance's efforts. IHC has a lovely event to ascend their TA and Glom/Celest/Hallifax get a little something with Partoleon to celebrate sealing away Kehturu or a follow up Roleplay after sealing away Kethuru?

An event that builds on the end of ascension roleplay wise and offers closure for both sides. It feels like that might be a lovely idea and mend quite a bit in the process.

There's no reasons both sides couldnt even get involved in a culmination that would celebrate everyone that fought so hard post ascension and bring people togheter.

It feels like unity as a themed event moving forward would be really important to help people be drawn togheter, beyond the themes of Wyrd, taint, light, nature & Etc.

Edit: You could even RP off the Lag as something that was caused by Kehturu ♥

Jason · July 2020

It does not matter if Seren/Magnagora/Gaudiguch deserved to lose or not, they did lose, unless you are attempting to take away the entire esport side of Lusternia as Ciaran mentioned. A sport is a competition with set parameters, there is a winner and a loser, normally with money or some other reward which in this case is an ascension. The name of Lusternia itself even mentions ascension, the predecessors have never done what is happening now in the past 13 years.

If it is felt that both sides need to have an true ascendant risen, then there should a least be "something" for the actual winning side of the contest, which had massive amounts of people fighting and competing over.

Shango · July 2020

@Afollia You have a good idea there, actually. Why NOT events for both? Who the hell says there can't be, outside of planning/coding concerns. Raising Ixion can come first since that's already under way, but can also work in or extend to a further event for the other side to celebrate. MORE RP events is almost never a bad thing.

Just no Plagues. -_-

Edit: Also yes, the lag I always felt was a direct result of Kethuru. Time being a creation just like any other concept in the formless potential of the Void, works out well. Especially with a Time Seal now able to be in the mix. Let's expound on the lore all in!

Xenthos · July 2020

Orael said:

Xenthos said:

Can you please explain how you feel that the second suggestion makes Ixion any less of a TA? In this scenario, Ixion would be equivalent to both Yendor & me as a TA, but Choros would have gained a little extra perk that he shared with his team.
I think I missed your saying that being anything less than a full TA mechanics-wise would be a violation of your lines, but it is useful to know.

Because it means that you're getting something and they're not because they had bad luck with lag that potentially ruined their chances. It's back to the same thought process as why I don't think 2 TA's for your side is fair when only giving one to them.

So you're saying that... in your mind, there was no winner. It's not fair or right that the team that did get 3600 first get anything, at all, no matter how minor?

If that's the case, I'm really not sure what we're doing in this thread. If the Official Answer is that there was not a winner in this event, I wish it had been stated outright a while ago. It would have saved everyone a lot of frustration... including you, I'm sure.

Mboagn · July 2020

Hey. HEY. Have Parhelion beat Kethuru so bad that he's essentially a non-threat from now on. It's high time to introduce a new Big Bad, no?

Shango · July 2020

Mboagn said:

Hey. HEY. Have Parhelion beat Kethuru so bad that he's essentially a non-threat from now on. It's high time to introduce a new Big Bad, no?

Could always pull Xythin back from the Void. He still exists after all, banished by Estarra forever, but not unmade. That will be interesting a show to watch...

To say nothing of the slew of potential Souless that DIDN'T head straight for First World at the start of the Elder Wars, who's to say such beings actually went as a single group instead of some or even 'most' heading off elsewhere into the void, either to search for something else entirely that wasn't there, or they weren't ever quite sure WHERE to find Lusternia, and the group that found us happened to be lucky?

Mboagn · July 2020

Xenthos said:

So you're saying that... in your mind, there was no winner. It's not fair or right that the team that did get 3600 first get anything, at all, no matter how minor?
If that's the case, I'm really not sure what we're doing in this thread. If the Official Answer is that there was not a winner in this event, I wish it had been stated outright a while ago. It would have saved everyone a lot of frustration... including you, I'm sure.

To be fair, this thread has been... revealing... in unexpected ways.

Nelras · July 2020

Please could people stop trying to conflate IC motivation with OOC toxicity? IC, Hallifax pretty much changed sides to fight against Ixion, and that is, from my understanding, part of Celest's RP as well as he is tainted. I can't comment on Glomdoring's RP as I haven't really been involved with it. There is nothing wrong with this, nor with the feeling that this is being taken away by Ixion also being ascended.

Now, I know that people are going to say that I am being toxic, and that I must hate Ixion OOC and that the whole thing with Hallifax was OOC (It wasn't. We just didn't have a reason to explain it IC to the people who were asking us about it). I wouldn't be surprised at this point if anyone who is against Ixion being ascended is automatically toxic for doing so. But no, I am against it because it means that our IC motivation for fighting is removed - Magnagora just wins even if we fight, even if we win, and therefore we lose. This is also why I don't feel that giving something additional to Parhelion, or to our alliance, would help. I am not going to try to change what is happening, it has already been decided that Ixion is going to get TA from this. All that I would ask in that regard is that, if at all possible, it is done in a way that doesn't leave our characters feeling that we were fighting for no reason. That, and that people stop declaring that anyone who is even slightly against this is toxic and detrimental to the game.

Synl · July 2020

1. You have voided IC reasons for much of Celest and Glom. Please ensure this is reflected appropriately in whatever RP measure you take.

2. Swamp water did not somehow cheat or acted in bad faith as is being implied by some. Creeping was judged to be fair by Orael to one extent or another before the event. It works well within the spirit of the rules.

3. Speaking of, is heartstopping repeatedly to bypass insanity in an event where other methods of insanity reduction are purposely unactivated within the spirit of the rules?

Mboagn · July 2020

There have been people who have explicitly (although privately) stated that their reasons for denying Ixion was due to 'griefing' and that it would be a 'terrible thing ICly and OOCly'. No, not everyone who is opposed to Ixion shares these views and are toxic, but there are people who do have these views, and their behaviour is toxic.

If you do think that 'griefing' and 'terrible IC and OOC' instances are not toxic and detrimental reasons have in opposing Ixion, I am all ears for explanations.

Nelras · July 2020

There are people who are being remarkably unpleasant about it on both sides. That is not what I was talking about. What I was talking about was the fact that people are taking this to mean that this is the motivation of everyone involved and that the only reason people would ever be against this is to grief. I do not appreciate being told that I hate someone OOC just because I am concerned about the effect this will have in game.

Furthermore, some of the OOC reasons I have heard were concerns that it devalues ascension, or that it will happen again, or that we are being told that the fight didn't count because of lag. These are not even aimed at Ixion.

Mboagn · July 2020

If I'm being unpleasant about the situation, I apologize. I just don't want the issue of OOC vendettas to be brushed aside, because they will simply fester instead of being properly addressed. It may deserve its own discussion, though, that I can concede.

Would you be more amenable if it was anyone other than Ixion who was raised to 2nd TA (provided they were still on the same "side")?

Shango · July 2020

Back on topic...Afollia's idea has quite a bit of merit to balancing a bit of both sides in this. Should perhaps consider such, and how such an event may unfold? As much as is possible before it's decided on, of course....

Nelras · July 2020

No, I wouldn't be, @Mboagn. But I also wouldn't be had it been the other way around - the questions around whether Choros would have been raised if it was reversed hold little meaning for me. I am concerned that raising a second TA would be detrimental to the RP of the side that won the fight, as well as the IC significance of ascension. Given that Orael has said that they are looking at the RP reason for raising Ixion, I am hopeful that they will try to mitigate this.

Malayn · July 2020

I like the idea from Afollia.

Events are always fun, do not need to do anything inherently major, and can open new doors (like a new big bad again).

@Xenthos it looks like you are putting words in Orael's mouth now. Straw Man fallacy.

Parhelion · July 2020

So, I've let curiosity get the better of me and scanned a few pages of this thread. I wish people would just leave it well enough alone. Here's my idea that piggybacks off some other ideas.

This Saturday, Magnagora raises Ixion as VA, which is well earned not only given his hard work in the Ascension but his time and service to the Engine. A wild backlash of power from Avechna, stemming from the "points" Ixion earned during Ascension, refunds the amount of power used to raise him in its entirety.

The admin get to roleplay it out.

IHC get an ascendant, and let's be serious, one unlikely to ever be lowered. If they do, it's a crapton of free power.

SL gets their one true ascendant.

We still lost Ciaran

Ciaran · July 2020

Since voiding the outcome was a possibility for the event, the administration needed to cancel it before it was resolved, the earlier the better. Undoing the results of a competition simply isn't done unless there is cheating by one of the involved parties. The irony is not lost on me.

If the admin's position is that it will be better for the game in the long run, and less people will quit/retire/be bitter, I get it. But please don't try to act as if it's fair. What would have been fair would have been to cancel the event, but since it couldn't be done after the fact, the next best thing was to try to compensate both sides of the competition. The problem is you forgot to compensate my former alliance. Oreal's position, as I understand it, is that ascending Choros is the compensation, but he doesn't seem to realize that Choros' ascension is only a compensation if he is nullifying the fact that Choros won the ascension event.

So by my understanding, winning the event was made impossible by active admin intervention, something completely out of the hands of anyone within our alliance. Can you see why this is not well received?

I don't even know why I'm posting here. Old habits die hard I guess. I'll try to have this be my last post.

Enjoy the aftershock ascension events. I know the admin bust their asses to make this game work, I know they're trying their honest best to make amends. There is absolutely no question that there is no malign intent or bias from Aonia, Oreal, or any of the other Godmin. I just think they've made a series of mistakes here that we as the aggrieved parties are failing to properly convey.

Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

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