Why no one plays Wiccans: a perspective

Cyndarin · March 2013

It's not my job as a customer to appear and beg. That's insane.

Cyndarin · March 2013

*appease

Cyndarin · March 2013

What enyalida said. I don't expect dates and deadlines. But gah, I don't even know what to envoy right now.

Eventru · March 2013

You've never been told to hinge anything on something you know nothing about. If it was felt a Night report was needed, there'd probably be one. Choke was removed, however it wasn't the end-all-be-all of Night - right? I mean, that was the argument for years against changes to it. And it was removed and replaced with Twist - which you've done a report or two on, and if it needs further changes, submit another report on it. It shouldn't be on the "level" of power of Choke (otherwise Choke would never have needed removing!) but it should certainly be functional and useful. Shadowdancers shouldn't be so utterly bereft that the loss of Choke warrants the review of the entire skillset. Nor does its replacement demand something like a special report - I'm skeptical half or more of the skills need tweaks for balancing (usually the purpose of a special report) in the era of Twist. Does Wicca, as an archetype, need some help? Maybe. I don't buy into the belief the removal of Choke demands a report dedicated to Night. I'm mildly curious what you envision a Night report entailing? What do you think would fix Night to make Shadowdancers appealing? Honest question - I'm genuinely curious. I mean - you know as well as I, a special report is highly unlikely to see the redesign of an entire skillset nor an archetype (IE Wicca and Night) to some drastic degree.

Reports tend to be approved because, well, the admin either agree with the envoys' points or believe they will have no great impact overall (ie aren't "OP"). Generally speaking, from memory, yours usually were decent (not huge) buffs to Night - you know, because they were agreed to as being beneficial buffs for a guild that may need that leg up. (No, I mean, we're totally agreeing to whatever you report because we want you to like us and come to our birthday parties and play piñata with us! Or something.)

And if you didn't mean to imply bias, then I apologize - that this seems to be a regular issue for you, where you make statements that some people (more than just I) read and see the implied accusation, seems to suggest it's not accidental, nor that the problem is on another's end, though. In terms of application of resource, every admin decides their own projects - Estarra is always deeply involved in the process and happy to help with design etc, and has the final say - but I still pick my projects, just as Zvoltz picks his, so on and so forth. While it's true we tend to work pretty broadly, we also have the option of simply picking projects related to our orgs. Or doing nothing at all. Estarra isn't going to say, "Eventru, you do too much for Celest, go make this kind of stuff for Magnagora now." I might say, "I want to do something!" And she might say, "Hey, what about doing abc, this archetype has gone awhile without something new." And then I might say, "Sure!" But I might also say, "No thanks. What else?" And that's just the way things are when the bulk of your resources work on a volunteer basis. (For our own enjoyment, believe it or not. Zvoltz still doesn't believe me.)

Veyrzhul · March 2013

I don't know why you even feel entitled to a new skillset, Celina. Now that you've been told that you can work on fae skills, why not just do that?
I can't help the impression that you're just a bit bored and want a new shiny toy.

Estarra · March 2013

I really rather wish we didn't say anything about any possible wicca update. It seems to cause more issues than it's worth--one reason why I don't announce upcoming plans! Several years ago I promised something to players and wasn't able to deliver (because of an IRE mandated project that hit us from left field). I felt extremely terrible that I wasn't able to deliver as promised to players and have generally made it a point not to pre-announce projects. Things happen and I've learned it's best not to raise expectations--which is only reinforced in threads like this! (BTW, there is yet another IRE mandated project that is in the course of hitting us that I am told may tie many of us up for months.)

In any event, I personally do not see wicca in dire straights and don't feel a pressing need that something has to be done immediately. I know others may disagree and I generally read your comments, but it's hard to engage in a discussion without having people take it personally when you don't agree with them--and, yes, I know I am guilty of that as well!

I will remind everyone, however, that much of Lusternia is run by volunteers, including volunteer coders. They help behind the scenes as a hobby and their love of the game. I am not the "boss" that can tell volunteers what to do and when to do it (as a general rule); rather, they ask to do a project, I help with the design, and then they do it at the pace they set for themselves. Of course, it would be nice if we had a paid staff that could work on a schedule, but that's not reality and it may surprise you how limited the paid staff are at times to devote attention to certain projects. Not that should be of any concern to players! But I bring it up to emphasize how much we rely on volunteers. In that vein, I do know that when players become hostile to admin on the forums or FB or whatever, that some volunteers lose interest in their projects. I'm not saying players have to suck up to admin or appease them or whatever to get things done but I am saying the more positive the players are, the more positive the admin (especially the volunteers) are and the more productive we become. Just something to keep in mind--tone does matter!

Cyndarin · March 2013

Veyrzhul said:
I don't know why you even feel entitled to a new skillset, Celina. Now that you've been told that you can work on fae skills, why not just do that?
I can't help the impression that you're just a bit bored and want a new shiny toy.

If I was bored, I'd switch guilds. You accused me of being a guildhopper like 3 weeks ago.

I actually have a lot to do, boredom isn't the issue. Overwhelmed with my report queue is more accurate.

As far as what I do to SDs given a special report, I'll go over when I get home. The easy answer is "all the reports of done save sanitize and whatever not directly related thus far and then some."

As a note, if I thought there was bias, I'd say it. I don't think I have the reputation of holding my tongue. So, apologies if I come off that way. I'm very much a blunt say what I mean person.

Laysus · March 2013

Estarra said:

I really rather wish we didn't say anything about any possible wicca update. It seems to cause more issues than it's worth--one reason why I don't announce upcoming plans! Several years ago I promised something to players and wasn't able to deliver (because of an IRE mandated project that hit us from left field). I felt extremely terrible that I wasn't able to deliver as promised to players and have generally made it a point not to pre-announce projects. Things happen and I've learned it's best not to raise expectations--which is only reinforced in threads like this! (BTW, there is yet another IRE mandated project that is in the course of hitting us that I am told may tie many of us up for months.)

In any event, I personally do not see wicca in dire straights and don't feel a pressing need that something has to be done immediately. I know others may disagree and I generally read your comments, but it's hard to engage in a discussion without having people take it personally when you don't agree with them--and, yes, I know I am guilty of that as well!

I will remind everyone, however, that much of Lusternia is run by volunteers, including volunteer coders. They help behind the scenes as a hobby and their love of the game. I am not the "boss" that can tell volunteers what to do and when to do it (as a general rule); rather, they ask to do a project, I help with the design, and then they do it at the pace they set for themselves. Of course, it would be nice if we had a paid staff that could work on a schedule, but that's not reality and it may surprise you how limited the paid staff are at times to devote attention to certain projects. Not that should be of any concern to players! But I bring it up to emphasize how much we rely on volunteers. In that vein, I do know that when players become hostile to admin on the forums or FB or whatever, that some volunteers lose interest in their projects. I'm not saying players have to suck up to admin or appease them or whatever to get things done but I am saying the more positive the players are, the more positive the admin (especially the volunteers) are and the more productive we become. Just something to keep in mind--tone does matter!

I feel I should say, here, that I am generally appreciative of the hard work that goes into the game, from both paid and unpaid staff, but find myself a little on the same page as Celina in terms of how I view the wiccan archetype (although I may choose to express it differently). The game itself has come on in leaps and bounds since I started playing back in open beta, it's gotten a lot more complex and in some ways more involving (my views on that are a whole different subject). However, I can't help but feel that wicca has been neglected - and not necessarily through any fault of the admin. To start off we had some very powerful abilities (such as the original willowisp), and the envoy process over the years has done more to downgrade the totems specs and wicca than it has to improve it, while the rest of the game has suffered the inevitable power creep of new content. In some cases (to cite willowisp again), this has culminated in a series of nerfs that have pushed abilities too far the other way. It has, though, in the opinion of not just myself but many people with experience using the wicca and moon or night skillsets, left the archetype behind, suffering in terms of what it can do to what else everyone can do. The reasons behind these downgrades then left it hard to compensate by making the archetype work better in other ways.

I can understand how things like this can lead to people resenting the shiny new toys that other people get, while ours are in sore need of a polish up - not something I myself hold, having worked in a design environment I know how it goes. People have projects, things are worked on when people have the time and it becomes a priority. However, it would be very nice to see the existing content polished up a bit, which would take some coding time but for the largest part could be the responsibility of the envoy collective, before giving us new things that would take the envoy time away from the things that we think need them.

And while it may be true that wicca isn't in dire straits per se, what it is is sub-par across the board, and if me and Celina focus on it exclusively it could still take us six months to try and push through everything we'd like to do, and that's not something I relish because it means neglecting other things that could do with work.

Nihta · March 2013

I would like to see a Wicca special report. I think there are lots of little things that need to be done to the skillset, and that it would make more sense to change these things in context of other changes to the skillset, rather than just slowly change it over the course of the next year.

I appreciate that an admin is working on it, and that a special report for something that is going to get changed anyway at some point in the future seems like a waste of time, but I think it would go a long way towards making wiccans a more appealing class, as well as opening up new strategies to use with it.

I am exited to hear about the possibility of future changes to Wicca in a bigger way, but until then maybe we could have the special report to tide us over.

Urfion · March 2013

Here I come, killing the buzz again, but I really have to wonder what a special report could really do for wiccans. I don't see how most of the major issues with wiccans (predictable combat, lots of weak ents, lack of unique skills) could really be addressed without permission from on high to go hog wild; something I just don't see happening.

Cyndarin · March 2013

Urfion said:

Here I come, killing the buzz again, but I really have to wonder what a special report could really do for wiccans. I don't see how most of the major issues with wiccans (predictable combat, lots of weak ents, lack of unique skills) could really be addressed without permission from on high to go hog wild; something I just don't see happening.

Well really all a special report would do is allow us to update the pile of dated stuff piling up on our desks. Honestly I feel like that's all I've been doing with reports. Just updating things and tweaking. Laysus and I will sit down at some point and look over fae and figure out ideas to envoy together, and bounce Night and Moon ideas off one another, but you are correct in saying we aren't and won't ever be in a position to overhaul or bring anything unique or interesting into the guilds unless given the opportunity.

For starters...you asked for it Eventru...

Covens need to be looked at. They've been eclipsed by vastly superior mechanics like links. Rage and Terror serve no purpose aside from once a RL month griefer squads to kill a couple of lowbies on Ethereal, assuming there are enough Night or Moon users around, which is a rare thing for Glom. Longnight needs to be adjusted to account for the radical population thinning, and that may mean a nerf or alteration to it's purpose, but 13 combatants is a very tall order. The skill has been used twice or so in a real life year (or longer). Ascension was the last attempt, and turned out to be pointless.

Lash could use a bump in its drain. Its 10%+300 or something close for a 4 second equilibrium is very low and very slow. Mana pools are reaching 7000 easy, often much larger, and the drains haven't been updated to keep pace. Changes like swapping lash and succumb due specifically to choke were never undone. We don't have quicken to rapidly drain mana.

Twist could be really reexamined to not be so linear, predictable, and live/die/try again. It's a very uninteresting mechanic. I would like to see more ways to manipulate the shadow like gouging eyes for blind/bleed, thumping on the head for a stun, doodling hexes on them then whisper in the shadow's ear to activate the hexes, tie them up with rope . I don't want to mirror vodun or puppetry, but just some ideas. I would like more than the last twist to matter.

Wiccan hindering remains poor, and significantly inferior to guardians. This could, most likely, be addressed in night and moon.

This is a big one; Alternate kill methods for Night and Moon. This would bring a lot to the guilds. It is true that most guilds have a preferred option, but we have our only option.

Several of the fae are throw away or super situational. Wiccan passives really are not competition for Illuminati and researcher passives. Nihilists and Celestines have a lot more flexibility and control to set up specific kill methods with.

Leprechauns are genuinely worthless. They offer nothing of value. And I don't say that lightly. They just steal 50 gold. They are pointless fae. I've struggled with idea on this one. I like passive entangle which even leprechauns do (I think), and think it would go a long in helping the wiccan hindering issue.

Sylphs almost always get dismissed during group fights because they screw with druids. Their only value is 1v1 when you are trying not to die in a forested room. They are hard countered by cling, and can be rendered useless for no cost. There have been a few ideas tossed around. Make it something you can command, like snoefaasia. Give it some afflicting potential. Make it able to toss people like valley smudge. Give it a tornado like ability for power.

Pigwidgeons have become too easy to countered with pogos and surfboards and the like. As these sort of artifacts become more prominent, pigwidgeons decline rapidly in value. They also tend to die more than any other fae. It would like to see it affect everything outside of tumble or something else. I'm not sure what, but for a one hit kill fae, a 25% fire rate just for walking is bad.

Willowisp ranks among the worst summon skills in game, and if fighting a city, requires the other team not paying attention, at least 1 dryad, no wall, and the target to not scamper away. The set up is way too much to be effective in 95% of fights. I would either make the summon more usable or give the willowisp an alternate effect. Like being able to toss a person out of the room even if you're prone or substantially increased summon resist while it's in your entourage.

Snoefaasia are situationally useful, but vastly inferior to carcer. You can just spam movement until it goes through as it does not knock you off balance. I would lower the chance to proc and make it knock the target off balance or give it something unique like you get lost in the blizzard and go the wrong direction.

Slaugh and Crone are both very poor afflicters, and since neither SDs or MDs have any significant afflicting power, they don't end up contributing much at all. I would reconsider the December crone report and give them dual afflictions. It's once every 12 seconds, and don't really understand why it was rejected. There are other alternatives.

I'd like to see something unique in wicca for hexes. Make wiccans stronger or more adept in hexes than other guardians because they are witches and witches hex people and RP reason here. I touched on this in the OP, with no unique terts, making terts viable for wiccans is extremely frustrating. The ability to toss a hex after an attack or infuse hexes into their athames for unique effects or something.

Lower the cost of toadcurse so wiccans have some actually flexibility to use their power. Remove the ability to cure out of it, give the kill credit and essence gain to the wiccan, and remove toad dodging. I would do all of these things. If all we get is a single kill method, it should be a complete kill method. You can't even chase a toad through a demense effects like briars and rubble. That's crazy sauce, and I've lost fights to druids and mages because of this very issue.

SD specific: Make barghests either always stun or always paralyze. 50% chance for a 1 second stun every 12 seconds is pretty bad.

Make quest fae not quest fae. Questing for temporary skills is a pretty big sore spot. I don't know why Wiccans are the only guild with skills you can only access through questing.

All that being said, Spiritsingers were allowed to bring in a whole new mechanic, as were Cantors. It's not as impossible a task as it is made out to be. It's not some crazy, unprecedented idea to let players introduce ideas that get implemented.

So there you go. I didn't overthink it, just ran through most of my current queue for envoys and things I would include in a Wiccan update. I'm sure Laysus has stuff too.

Elanorwen · March 2013

Considering how long the snoefaasia quest actually is (Easily 4+ hours), I'd say the fact that it was recently changed to where the snoefaasia flowers decay in an IG year is a bit overkill as well. Perhaps there -is- something planned that would alter them a fair bit, but until that actually happens, I don't see why it's being made even more difficult for Wiccans, never mind the other part where carcer is much more potent, doesn't involve a prolonged quest to acquire and costs no power to summon. Yes, it might have been intended to happen that way from the start, but considering the issues being portrayed in these posts, one would think that someone is purposefully trying to frustrate wiccans even further.

Nihta · March 2013

Snoefaasia was my bestest friend </3

Saran · March 2013

Celina said:

Urfion said:

Here I come, killing the buzz again, but I really have to wonder what a special report could really do for wiccans. I don't see how most of the major issues with wiccans (predictable combat, lots of weak ents, lack of unique skills) could really be addressed without permission from on high to go hog wild; something I just don't see happening.

Covens need to be looked at. They've been eclipsed by vastly superior mechanics like links. Rage and Terror serve no purpose aside from once a RL month griefer squads to kill a couple of lowbies on Ethereal, assuming there are enough Night or Moon users around, which is a rare thing for Glom. Longnight needs to be adjusted to account for the radical population thinning, and that may mean a nerf or alteration to it's purpose, but 13 combatants is a very tall order. The skill has been used twice or so in a real life year (or longer). Ascension was the last attempt, and turned out to be pointless.
---------
I kinda wish covens were a bit more of a permanent thing, like you form them as a subset of the guild with their own "High Priest/ess" etc and coven powers are longer term effects, while "circle" powers are what we have right now. Unfortunately, a major change and probably too close to mini-cults.

I'd like to see something unique in wicca for hexes. Make wiccans stronger or more adept in hexes than other guardians because they are witches and witches hex people and RP reason here. I touched on this in the OP, with no unique terts, making terts viable for wiccans is extremely frustrating. The ability to toss a hex after an attack or infuse hexes into their athames for unique effects or something.
-----
I would absolutely love to see more customisation of skills to guilds. Though I think rather than being all "We're witchy" maybe... well Night could be straight forward and Moon would maybe be invoking the Crone.

Make quest fae not quest fae. Questing for temporary skills is a pretty big sore spot. I don't know why Wiccans are the only guild with skills you can only access through questing.
-----
It is potentially just me, but I have a fondness for quest gained abilities. I'd like to see them kept and even expanded to other guilds, but strictly only as utility, anything that is going to affect combat should be included in the skill at base (maybe a once-off lowbie quest)

Not a wiccan or combatant, but there are my thoughts as it is my second choice of class.

Alacardael · March 2013

Quests abilities are fine, but not if it's a 4-hour quest that you have (have, because the ability in question has pretty notable combat impact) to do every 12ish days.

Saran · March 2013

>---------------------------[ Changelog Entry #295 ]--------------------------<

Entered by: The Oneiroi, Administrators of Fate Date: 2013-03-26 04:30:28

o Snoeefaasia orchids will wither and die a year after being planted, as

always intended.

>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<

yeah, I cringed.

Rivius · March 2013

Celina said:

Urfion said:

Here I come, killing the buzz again, but I really have to wonder what a special report could really do for wiccans. I don't see how most of the major issues with wiccans (predictable combat, lots of weak ents, lack of unique skills) could really be addressed without permission from on high to go hog wild; something I just don't see happening.

Well really all a special report would do is allow us to update the pile of dated stuff piling up on our desks. Honestly I feel like that's all I've been doing with reports. Just updating things and tweaking. Laysus and I will sit down at some point and look over fae and figure out ideas to envoy together, and bounce Night and Moon ideas off one another, but you are correct in saying we aren't and won't ever be in a position to overhaul or bring anything unique or interesting into the guilds unless given the opportunity.

For starters...you asked for it Eventru...

Covens need to be looked at. They've been eclipsed by vastly superior mechanics like links. Rage and Terror serve no purpose aside from once a RL month griefer squads to kill a couple of lowbies on Ethereal, assuming there are enough Night or Moon users around, which is a rare thing for Glom. Longnight needs to be adjusted to account for the radical population thinning, and that may mean a nerf or alteration to it's purpose, but 13 combatants is a very tall order. The skill has been used twice or so in a real life year (or longer). Ascension was the last attempt, and turned out to be pointless.

Agreed.

Lash could use a bump in its drain. Its 10%+300 or something close for a 4 second equilibrium is very low and very slow. Mana pools are reaching 7000 easy, often much larger, and the drains haven't been updated to keep pace. Changes like swapping lash and succumb due specifically to choke were never undone. We don't have quicken to rapidly drain mana.

Disagree. I've seen you fight people and your mana draining capabilities seem to be more than enough. I think you're understating how consistently you can kill people now.

Twist could be really reexamined to not be so linear, predictable, and live/die/try again. It's a very uninteresting mechanic. I would like to see more ways to manipulate the shadow like gouging eyes for blind/bleed, thumping on the head for a stun, doodling hexes on them then whisper in the shadow's ear to activate the hexes, tie them up with rope . I don't want to mirror vodun or puppetry, but just some ideas. I would like more than the last twist to matter.

Why...? Honestly, I'm not sure every twist being powerful is fair to the other guy either. Skills need to provide -some- reprieve to the opponent so an actual fight can happen. This is my biggest peeve with guardians like Nihilists, Researchers and Illuminati, who remain overpowered.

Wiccan hindering remains poor, and significantly inferior to guardians. This could, most likely, be addressed in night and moon.

It's fine. Honestly, you have web, you have shield stun, you have scourge and then you have your ents. You don't really need anything else. I'm not even sure where guardians hinder more than that except for crazy-banana-pants illuminati, nihilists or finisher-skills like crucify and inquisition.

This is a big one; Alternate kill methods for Night and Moon. This would bring a lot to the guilds. It is true that most guilds have a preferred option, but we have our only option.

Agreed. I think every guild should have more than one viable kill method.

Several of the fae are throw away or super situational. Wiccan passives really are not competition for Illuminati and researcher passives. Nihilists and Celestines have a lot more flexibility and control to set up specific kill methods with.

Illuminati are overpowered. Researcher passives are actually not that bad except for their passive healing and stupid shield they don't need. I'll agree with the point on Nihilists and Celestines though. Flexibility on that level would be good.

Leprechauns are genuinely worthless. They offer nothing of value. And I don't say that lightly. They just steal 50 gold. They are pointless fae. I've struggled with idea on this one. I like passive entangle which even leprechauns do (I think), and think it would go a long in helping the wiccan hindering issue.

Passive entangle...?

Sylphs almost always get dismissed during group fights because they screw with druids. Their only value is 1v1 when you are trying not to die in a forested room. They are hard countered by cling, and can be rendered useless for no cost. There have been a few ideas tossed around. Make it something you can command, like snoefaasia. Give it some afflicting potential. Make it able to toss people like valley smudge. Give it a tornado like ability for power.

Not everyone has cling. Making it commandable might not be a bad idea. Why not envoy that?

Pigwidgeons have become too easy to countered with pogos and surfboards and the like. As these sort of artifacts become more prominent, pigwidgeons decline rapidly in value. They also tend to die more than any other fae. It would like to see it affect everything outside of tumble or something else. I'm not sure what, but for a one hit kill fae, a 25% fire rate just for walking is bad.

They stop leap. I can confirm that. Even bugged it. So if pogos counter it, just bug it?

Willowisp ranks among the worst summon skills in game, and if fighting a city, requires the other team not paying attention, at least 1 dryad, no wall, and the target to not scamper away. The set up is way too much to be effective in 95% of fights. I would either make the summon more usable or give the willowisp an alternate effect. Like being able to toss a person out of the room even if you're prone or substantially increased summon resist while it's in your entourage.

Agreed. Communes don't have as efficient summon/pull skills as cities and I've always felt this was a huge imbalance.

Snoefaasia are situationally useful, but vastly inferior to carcer. You can just spam movement until it goes through as it does not knock you off balance. I would lower the chance to proc and make it knock the target off balance or give it something unique like you get lost in the blizzard and go the wrong direction.

But it sprawls you and has a 70% fire rate. Your suggestion isn't too bad though I suppose.

Slaugh and Crone are both very poor afflicters, and since neither SDs or MDs have any significant afflicting power, they don't end up contributing much at all. I would reconsider the December crone report and give them dual afflictions. It's once every 12 seconds, and don't really understand why it was rejected. There are other alternatives.

While I firmly hold that MDs are way behind SDs, I do think Crone is way better than slaugh, and the only buff it might have needed is a narrowing of its aff list to useful things.

I'd like to see something unique in wicca for hexes. Make wiccans stronger or more adept in hexes than other guardians because they are witches and witches hex people and RP reason here. I touched on this in the OP, with no unique terts, making terts viable for wiccans is extremely frustrating. The ability to toss a hex after an attack or infuse hexes into their athames for unique effects or something.

Lower the cost of toadcurse so wiccans have some actually flexibility to use their power. Remove the ability to cure out of it, give the kill credit and essence gain to the wiccan, and remove toad dodging. I would do all of these things. If all we get is a single kill method, it should be a complete kill method. You can't even chase a toad through a demense effects like briars and rubble. That's crazy sauce, and I've lost fights to druids and mages because of this very issue.

Toads are more than fine now. Dissolving demesnes is something I agree with, and maybe toad dodge. But after than long (unneeded) stun was added, I think toads themselves don't deserve any more changes that favour the wiccan other than the previously mentioned. The power cost argument may have merit, so long as power is still something to be considered carefully.

SD specific: Make barghests either always stun or always paralyze. 50% chance for a 1 second stun every 12 seconds is pretty bad.

Make quest fae not quest fae. Questing for temporary skills is a pretty big sore spot. I don't know why Wiccans are the only guild with skills you can only access through questing.

Agreed.

All that being said, Spiritsingers were allowed to bring in a whole new mechanic, as were Cantors. It's not as impossible a task as it is made out to be. It's not some crazy, unprecedented idea to let players introduce ideas that get implemented.

So there you go. I didn't overthink it, just ran through most of my current queue for envoys and things I would include in a Wiccan update. I'm sure Laysus has stuff too.

Laysus · March 2013

Saran said:
>---------------------------[ Changelog Entry #295 ]--------------------------<
Entered by: The Oneiroi, Administrators of Fate Date: 2013-03-26 04:30:28

o Snoeefaasia orchids will wither and die a year after being planted, as
always intended.
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------------<

yeah, I cringed.

That makes me sad. At level 87 I still had to get help with that quest, due to being unable to tank the killing bits

and my list of what needs looking at is remarkably similar to celina's, although I daresay I had different solutions in mind. I have a few other things to look at in the skillset as well. And that's just wicca

Cyndarin · March 2013

Actually I won't go through a point by point argument. Especially a debate that seems to be more about not liking illuminati than anything else.

The list was just because Eventru asked. They will make it an envoy report eventually.

Rivius · March 2013

pt.1

I really don't get what it is you actually want as far as hindering goes then, can you elaborate? Can you also give us some detailed comparisons?

pt.2

What do you mean by the lash change? Do you mean the succumb/lash switch? I never said that was a buff, I'm saying I don't think you're hurting for mana drain. You claim you have trouble with higher mana people, and I've seen evidence of you doing fine against them. I won't call you a liar, but I do remain skeptical and just want some evidence of this.

pt.3

Yeah, passive entangle is part of why fighting Nihilists feels almost impossible for some classes (Hint: mine). Because too much hindering leaves us no opening to retaliate and raise our own offense. Makes thing unbalanced.

pt.4

Goodness. Okay, I don't mind removing the kiss nor raising the chance on it for ill-effects. A toad getting away nowadays is not a common occurrence at all.

Eventru · March 2013

All existing quest fae were intended to be temporary (snoefaasia just weren't being removed properly). Versus making it the new year like the originals, it's just 'after 12 months'.

Thanks C! Now I at least understand what you think its weaknesses are.

Enyalida · March 2013

The quest fae should probably last a great deal longer than a year if they're going to be temporary, at least the Snoefaasia should. Something closer to 4-5 years seems a lot more appropriate for such a long, tedious quest in a difficult to access location.

Cyndarin · March 2013

Eventru said:

All existing quest fae were intended to be temporary (snoefaasia just weren't being removed properly). Versus making it the new year like the originals, it's just 'after 12 months'.

Thanks C! Now I at least understand what you think its weaknesses are.

My issue with quest fae is that the current state of Wiccans makes the quest fae feel like necessities to fill existing voids. At least the snoefaasia does. I suspect the admin look at the quest fae as nice perks, where as now that I've had the snoefaasia, it's something we need. It feel like we are the only guild forced to spend hours doing a long quest every couple of weeks to have all of our options. Maybe if it was a leg up on the competition..but it's not. It would equate it to making Nihilists having to quest to use shackles or carcer. It's just another layer of frustrating disparity that just seems to exist to irritate us. Which I know it's supposed to be intersting...it just isn't after the first time.

The bluebell is fine. It's a little influencing perk. Snoefaasia is something I see as a necessity for Wiccan combat.

Xenthos · March 2013

You can cut the Frosticia quest down to about three hours if you "abuse" knowledge of the quest and how it works. You can pre-kill the snoelorae for instance, then hand in their corpses later on when asked. This reduces the time it takes for them to return for influencing purposes.

The real question is: why should you have to? It's just additional tedium added into the process for no good mechanical reason.

Laysus · March 2013

On Snoefaasia: I really do like the idea of the quest-related fae. However, the difficulty of the quest and time taken to do it make it an unappealing prospect to have to do once per IC year.

On the problems with wicca:

One of the biggest problems I see is that we have, on a fairly slow tick (12s for the most part), fairly mediocre effects - such as:

0.7-1.5s balance loss (which we have little way to capitalise upon)

Theft of 50g from the inventory (which a) goes against the general "no theft" ethic that the lusternian player base has built, and b) considering the state of the IC economy, isn't exactly worth much)

For moondancers, a choice of masochism, shivering, anorexia, blindness, slickness, confusion, loneliness, vertigo, or recklessness - which does include some fairly nice afflictions, but little synergy to allow us to capitalise on them, and too much variety to allow us to do so reliably even if we had such a method.

Knocking enemies out of elevations above ground (not sure about mountains, but definitely trees and sky). In theory, quite nice - in practice, disrupts group combat and only of niche use in normal combat (especially with levitation).

There are some nicer effects, such as pixie, pooka, banshee, mother, and sprite - but even these have their problems and I don't know how much use pixie is to SDs these days.

If you throw on top of that the difficulty involved in timing one's fae to hit together (which is the only real way to get their abilities to work together), and a few other factors, this is why Wicca needs serious help. It's our primary, and it's worse than all our other class skills..

Morshoth · March 2013

Needs more candy-fae!

Nihta · March 2013

I actually like the quest requirement of the snoefaasia, but only if the snoefaasia is permanent. For me it was like a rite of passage saying "hey, I am serious about being a Shadowdancer".

I feel that the snoefaasia should be permanent, and the orchid should only die (along with your snoefaasia) an IC year after you leave the guild you joined to get it (ie you quit being a shadow/moon dancer).

Really, I think the bluebell and foxglove should be the same way as described above, but I never bothered to get one since they only lasted a year, and have not grown attached to them as I have the snoefaasia.

Thul · March 2013

I'm as big a fan of questing as anyone, but people play the game for a lot of different reasons. Some people like to quest, some people like the combat, and some people like to do both, but there are some people who fall into the love combat, hate questing category. It seems kind of rude to these people to stick one of the more potent combat abilities behind a quest like that. I'd say that even if this were something that all classes had to deal with. The snoefaasia thing hits two (or is it four? druids get it?) guilds out of the entire game.

The only other comparable speedbump I can think of is the lock on Cavalier. That quest is relatively easy, nets you an entire skillset, only has to be done once, and is there specifically because Cavalier is intended for people who have significant investments elsewhere (beastmastery.) I don't even know the full details of the snoefaasia quest, but... trip to Frosticia every year you want the ability? There's a certain lack of parity here.

Is this something we can reexamine?

(Edit: phone ate my formatting)

Elanorwen · March 2013

Thul said:

I'm as big a fan of questing as anyone, but people play the game for a lot of different reasons. Some people like to quest, some people like the combat, and some people like to do both, but there are some people who fall into the love combat, hate questing category. It seems kind of rude to these people to stick one of the more potent combat abilities behind a quest like that. I'd say that even if this were something that all classes had to deal with. The snoefaasia thing hits two (or is it four? druids get it?) guilds out of the entire game. The only other comparable speedbump I can think of is the lock on Cavalier. That quest is relatively easy, nets you an entire skillset, only has to be done once, and is there specifically because Cavalier is intended for people who have significant investments elsewhere (beastmastery.) I don't even know the full details of the snoefaasia quest, but... trip to Frosticia every year you want the ability? There's a certain lack of parity here. Is this something we can reexamine?

Two guilds only, and the Frosticia quest is easily 4 hours as mentioned earlier... and it's not... hey, work one hour today, one hour tomorrow... etc. It is four hours that you have to work on it, possibly sitting on Frosticia the entire time so someone else doesn't wander in, see the quest half-completed and take it from there. You can have someone else do it for you... as the reward that actually enables the snoefaasia can be handed off to other people, but really... it's 10 minutes of bashing, 50 minutes of sitting around and waiting for respawns. It could easily be much more streamlined... (The whole thing is based on the number 25). You need to kill 25 icelords/ladies? There's only about 20 up at any time. Need to kill 25 snowmen/ladies? There's only 20 running around. Need to influence 25 icelord/ladies or snowmen/ladies? Only 20 around. Most of the time is spent waiting on things to respawn so you can go on to the next step of the quest. So yeah, sorry, but for something like that, I'd say I agree in that the snoefaasia either has to last much longer than a year, or it has to be made permanent.

Riluna · March 2013

I'd appreciate at least 2 years before it decays. It still keeps the theme of decay and renewal, but something closer to a RL month seems more appropriate for what I agree is a large commitment of time, all at once. The Flower Fae quest is fine, though. They're both really of very minimal benefit anyway, but enough to be a reward for the much smaller time investment they are, for those who like to stack on every bonus they can get.

If I am understanding correctly, and there is some consideration that (EDIT: some of) the Fae would be deleted outright, I'm rather against that. We've got way too much lore and RP tools available through them to just let them go..

I do feel like I am very restricted by my available killing methods. Whether I choose Astrology or Hexes, it seems to be a very specific formula, for my one way to bring you down. This makes me so ridiculously predictable that you know precisely what I am going to do, every step of the way, which I feel unfairly limits my ability to come up with a strategy to outwit you. I have no strategy without some measure of choice.. It seems impossible to learn how to even compete when you already know what I am going to do, what I must do, better than I do yet. My entire offense revolves heavily on luck.

Luck, in itself, is perfectly fine. I love it as the theme for what my character, as a Wiccan, is able to do. I don't really have any flavor for it, but in the spirit of theorycrafting I'd like to consider expanding on that, potentially for both Wiccan guilds. It seems reasonable to me that any witch of sufficient worth and power would be able to find a way to unleash their wrath, other than restricting themselves to the immense terror of the toadcurse. And surely this more devastating effect would require a bit more complexity. One way might be possible, creating only two more skills in Hexes.

My lesser curse, on its own, has no more affect than paving the way for the greater curse, a true instakill. A charge-up skill. It is only successful when it lands on you at a moment when you are off balance or equilibrium. This allows you strategic defensive options, forcing you to simply choose to defer anything that spends either to completely defend against it at the cost of slowing down your offense. It also allows me offensive strategies, perhaps granting the ability for a feint. Wait too much, and you're more open to a bit more hindering. Perhaps by requiring body afflictions, or more than one for each successive charge, it could open up more viability for a lot of my under- or never used hexes.

The greater curse is the true instakill, requiring some number of successful charges. It could even require jinx, opening the viability for another sorely underused skill. Depending on how long the charges last, it grants me options to use the burst offense I have now, not destroying but perhaps enhancing my choice for going for the sleeplock and toad, or building up for a somewhat longer offensive sequence with much more unpredictability, and opening up the use of a lot of the useless things we already have. And much of it would still require a great deal of luck, although in a way more reliant on your defensive choices.

Why no one plays Wiccans: a perspective

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