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Family Honor replacement or update ideas
So, with family honor frozen, the idea presented to us has been that the Admin are sick of dealing with it, and are willing to burn it down (kidding, but also not), and are looking to replace or recode it.
Huskii — Today at 5:57 AM
I'ld think Homesteads, but that's a but after trying Aetolia, that could get silly... Perhaps investable Manse stuff? Cartels? Family 'artifact' weapons/focis?
Uzriel — Today at 6:02 AM
Is it possible to get a way to see the list of families back? Even without the rankings can be fun to see the list of families and what type they are
Llani — Today at 6:06 AM
with a family crest, it would be neat to be able to add it to crafted items - transforming something from like 'a pair of pink pantaloons' to 'a pair of pink pantaloons bearing the Myeras family crest' or something along those lines, and it appends the crest desc to the end of the item's desc. Possibly in color at some certain reward threshold.
This thread is going to be a repository of the ideas presented in the discord's feedback channel, and a springboard for discussions!
Spoiler
We have a long term idea about how to improve the system. We'll go into that at a later date. In the short term however, we're looking to freeze and hide family honour entirely. This means no gain or loss, values are hidden, and eventually will be reset. Culture for family honour will also be ceased. The system stops existing entirely in the interim.
Because we know a lot of players are putting in hours to make it happen, we're looking to reward that effort during the freeze by providing a reward that will be implemented in the new system. While we're a bit fuzzy on specifics right now, the main points are as follows:
The reward will primarily be roleplay-only and focused around family identity.
There will be a level of customization available to the reward. How customizable will depend on how much honour you have at the time of the freeze. The brackets will be generous, so there is no need for a last minute grind.
No upkeep to the reward.
When the new system comes out and honour is reset, anybody family who received the reward will retain everything they've received as a head start.
Leave any questions, comments, concerns here. If nothing major is raised, we're looking to implement the freeze some time this week. The reward in question will be implemented some time after the freeze with no timeframe available at time of this post.
Because we know a lot of players are putting in hours to make it happen, we're looking to reward that effort during the freeze by providing a reward that will be implemented in the new system. While we're a bit fuzzy on specifics right now, the main points are as follows:
The reward will primarily be roleplay-only and focused around family identity.
There will be a level of customization available to the reward. How customizable will depend on how much honour you have at the time of the freeze. The brackets will be generous, so there is no need for a last minute grind.
No upkeep to the reward.
When the new system comes out and honour is reset, anybody family who received the reward will retain everything they've received as a head start.
Leave any questions, comments, concerns here. If nothing major is raised, we're looking to implement the freeze some time this week. The reward in question will be implemented some time after the freeze with no timeframe available at time of this post.
Spoiler
Shango — 08/21/2023 6:36 PM
As long as it's not too stressful for your programming team, by all means. Whole system is a headache as is, so change is good, but we do understand about limited resources =/ Even if no rewards in the interim, having the break will be a big boon too
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:38 PM
It's basically done pending feedback and a couple adjustments that need to be made still. No more stress than anything else. I appreciate the concern however.
Shango — 08/21/2023 6:40 PM
What sort of rewards are the idea then? Typecasts, movements, etc?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:41 PM
Ah, the freeze is done. The rewards are a different department, so to speak
As long as it's not too stressful for your programming team, by all means. Whole system is a headache as is, so change is good, but we do understand about limited resources =/ Even if no rewards in the interim, having the break will be a big boon too
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:38 PM
It's basically done pending feedback and a couple adjustments that need to be made still. No more stress than anything else. I appreciate the concern however.
Shango — 08/21/2023 6:40 PM
What sort of rewards are the idea then? Typecasts, movements, etc?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:41 PM
Ah, the freeze is done. The rewards are a different department, so to speak
Spoiler
Xenthos — 08/21/2023 6:42 PM
What specifically do you mean by "reset"?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:46 PM
We anticipate needing to reset fully, or at the very least scale down, honour values when the new system comes in. When that will happen is unknown at this time, as we don't have the new system ready to propose yet.
Xenthos — 08/21/2023 6:46 PM
My input is: Freeze is awesome. 100%. Fully on-board. Other specifics are not detailed enough to give any real input on at this point.
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:47 PM
Yeah. Unfortunately, you know what we know right now. We can freeze values, we want to implement a new system but the blackboard is chaos, and there will be some sort of reward based on current honour values.
What specifically do you mean by "reset"?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:46 PM
We anticipate needing to reset fully, or at the very least scale down, honour values when the new system comes in. When that will happen is unknown at this time, as we don't have the new system ready to propose yet.
Xenthos — 08/21/2023 6:46 PM
My input is: Freeze is awesome. 100%. Fully on-board. Other specifics are not detailed enough to give any real input on at this point.
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:47 PM
Yeah. Unfortunately, you know what we know right now. We can freeze values, we want to implement a new system but the blackboard is chaos, and there will be some sort of reward based on current honour values.
Spoiler
Triam — 08/21/2023 6:48 PM
honour points like currency?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:49 PM
That is a future plan we're strongly considering, yes.
Triam — 08/21/2023 6:49 PM
what was the other benefit of top house?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:49 PM
Primarily culture
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:50 PM
As well as the fairly standard "my number is bigger than yours"
honour points like currency?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:49 PM
That is a future plan we're strongly considering, yes.
Triam — 08/21/2023 6:49 PM
what was the other benefit of top house?
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:49 PM
Primarily culture
Ais — 08/21/2023 6:50 PM
As well as the fairly standard "my number is bigger than yours"
Spoiler
Zagreus — 08/21/2023 7:07 PM
Opinion from #1 position being code displaced for the second time now: Calling this system family honor has always been a joke. It's almost always 1-3 people doing 99% of the work/upkeep. Nuke the entire points/rewards/benefits/everything beyond flavor RP. That is, leave the RP logs for stuff like epic quests for flavor, perhaps merge that into city/commune logs for public recognition. Edit: let the current system die. Anything related to GH size needs to stay gone (edited)
Opinion from #1 position being code displaced for the second time now: Calling this system family honor has always been a joke. It's almost always 1-3 people doing 99% of the work/upkeep. Nuke the entire points/rewards/benefits/everything beyond flavor RP. That is, leave the RP logs for stuff like epic quests for flavor, perhaps merge that into city/commune logs for public recognition. Edit: let the current system die. Anything related to GH size needs to stay gone (edited)
Spoiler
Llani — 08/21/2023 7:06 PM
re: self correcting. I think it would work well as a self correcting system if there was an unavoidable yearly loss of some % of the honor - if it was 10% of the honor, family honour would float at around 10 years worth of honor, or whatnot.
Llani — 08/21/2023 7:07 PM
and without a threshold, I don't think the grind incentive would be as significant, and people couldn't make it go up forever and ever as long as they hit that threshold each ig year
re: self correcting. I think it would work well as a self correcting system if there was an unavoidable yearly loss of some % of the honor - if it was 10% of the honor, family honour would float at around 10 years worth of honor, or whatnot.
Llani — 08/21/2023 7:07 PM
and without a threshold, I don't think the grind incentive would be as significant, and people couldn't make it go up forever and ever as long as they hit that threshold each ig year
Spoiler
Lavinya — 08/21/2023 7:09 PM
I am down with the ability to get some flavour things for having some active people about doing their usual active things (ie not needing to grind). Things that are nice but not necessary, sure. But I also would not be upset at having 0 honour system at all and having families purely just be an rp thing between characters.
Zagreus — 08/21/2023 7:21 PM
Lavvy I think we're seeing it similarly. The reward will PRIMARILY be roleplay-only and levels of customization seems to be leading towards shiny things I would imagine many would just be missing out on. If the rewards are things even smaller/all families could get then sure I suppose.
Ais — 08/21/2023 7:27 PM
As for the type of reward we're looking at implementing, and I cannot stress enough that this is still just a concept that can change at any time, the current idea is a customizable and wearable family crest. The idea is that it can be upgraded to have more customizable facets (and current honour would just unlock these tiers), the family head can modify, and each family member (and perhaps even trusted members outside of the family?) are able to receive one.
[7:28 PM]
Again, this is an early draft concept. Speculation as to how it will work, what's customizable, and what the tiers are is probably going to push into the boundary of things we haven't decided, is probably as good as guesswork as we don't know if this is what we're doing at this point. It's just a rough idea to point at general direction.
Ais — Yesterday at 4:42 AM
I don't particularly see any reason for us at this time to limit roleplay to great/lesser houses.
I am down with the ability to get some flavour things for having some active people about doing their usual active things (ie not needing to grind). Things that are nice but not necessary, sure. But I also would not be upset at having 0 honour system at all and having families purely just be an rp thing between characters.
Zagreus — 08/21/2023 7:21 PM
Lavvy I think we're seeing it similarly. The reward will PRIMARILY be roleplay-only and levels of customization seems to be leading towards shiny things I would imagine many would just be missing out on. If the rewards are things even smaller/all families could get then sure I suppose.
Ais — 08/21/2023 7:27 PM
As for the type of reward we're looking at implementing, and I cannot stress enough that this is still just a concept that can change at any time, the current idea is a customizable and wearable family crest. The idea is that it can be upgraded to have more customizable facets (and current honour would just unlock these tiers), the family head can modify, and each family member (and perhaps even trusted members outside of the family?) are able to receive one.
[7:28 PM]
Again, this is an early draft concept. Speculation as to how it will work, what's customizable, and what the tiers are is probably going to push into the boundary of things we haven't decided, is probably as good as guesswork as we don't know if this is what we're doing at this point. It's just a rough idea to point at general direction.
Ais — Yesterday at 4:42 AM
I don't particularly see any reason for us at this time to limit roleplay to great/lesser houses.
Spoiler
Luce's Ghost — 08/21/2023 7:58 PM
I've been trying to 'discover' Shevat ceremonies (read: inventing them from whole cloth) for a bit, so the ability to codify that and have it recorded somewhere independent of my notes and clans (coughhintcough) would be neat.
I've been trying to 'discover' Shevat ceremonies (read: inventing them from whole cloth) for a bit, so the ability to codify that and have it recorded somewhere independent of my notes and clans (coughhintcough) would be neat.
Spoiler
Qistrel — Yesterday at 2:53 AM
How much will the family will be involved in the customisation of the reward? Will it be a liason with the family head?
Qistrel
How much will the family will be involved in the customisation of the reward? Will it be a liason with the family head?
Ais — Yesterday at 4:37 AM
Nothing's written in stone and everything is subject to change, but the current idea is family head has full control with approval by admin. I imagine historical houses might end up being a bit more strict on approvals, but the main reason is we're playing around with a few ideas that couldn't just be done with the design system right now.
[4:40 AM]
To preempt approval questions, we don't know anything beyond it would probably be a similar system to the CUSTOMIZE command or custom demipower configuration where it goes into a highly-visible queue.
How much will the family will be involved in the customisation of the reward? Will it be a liason with the family head?
Qistrel
How much will the family will be involved in the customisation of the reward? Will it be a liason with the family head?
Ais — Yesterday at 4:37 AM
Nothing's written in stone and everything is subject to change, but the current idea is family head has full control with approval by admin. I imagine historical houses might end up being a bit more strict on approvals, but the main reason is we're playing around with a few ideas that couldn't just be done with the design system right now.
[4:40 AM]
To preempt approval questions, we don't know anything beyond it would probably be a similar system to the CUSTOMIZE command or custom demipower configuration where it goes into a highly-visible queue.
Spoiler
Ais — Yesterday at 4:45 AM
The wipe/reset isn't written in stone and feedback/concerns are being taken into account. The main reason for it is we don't believe any new system would be fully compatible with what might come, and due to nothing being set in stone this might be something we're worried about for nothing. If we were to do a reset, it would be as non-destructive as possible (loss of honour wouldn't mean any loss of benefits from honour beyond what the freeze is already doing)
Ais — Yesterday at 4:55 AM
As an explanation of the previous statement, everything is on the table at the moment. Keeping scaling down or resetting values entirely on the table allows us to speculate, design, and then reason about major changes without the up-front restriction of "we have to keep this system roughly the same going forward", especially in systems where numbers have skyrocketed to unreasonable levels such as family honour. This situation is what makes projects like the economy rework as difficult to design as they actually are, as Lusternia has spiraled into a sort of hyperinflation where large piles of assets are being hoarded by a small number of players and introducing a new system that interacts with those assets could lead to more problems being created than are actually solved.
[4:58 AM]
Or to simplify, it's really hard to design around capitalism and legacy wealth. (This is not a political statement, just a reality of the situation.)
The wipe/reset isn't written in stone and feedback/concerns are being taken into account. The main reason for it is we don't believe any new system would be fully compatible with what might come, and due to nothing being set in stone this might be something we're worried about for nothing. If we were to do a reset, it would be as non-destructive as possible (loss of honour wouldn't mean any loss of benefits from honour beyond what the freeze is already doing)
Ais — Yesterday at 4:55 AM
As an explanation of the previous statement, everything is on the table at the moment. Keeping scaling down or resetting values entirely on the table allows us to speculate, design, and then reason about major changes without the up-front restriction of "we have to keep this system roughly the same going forward", especially in systems where numbers have skyrocketed to unreasonable levels such as family honour. This situation is what makes projects like the economy rework as difficult to design as they actually are, as Lusternia has spiraled into a sort of hyperinflation where large piles of assets are being hoarded by a small number of players and introducing a new system that interacts with those assets could lead to more problems being created than are actually solved.
[4:58 AM]
Or to simplify, it's really hard to design around capitalism and legacy wealth. (This is not a political statement, just a reality of the situation.)
Spoiler
Uzriel — Yesterday at 5:24 AM
What sort of customizable things are in consideration? Or is it still too early to say? I will say I'm possibly in a minority here, but I actually enjoy the "watch family numbers creep up game" - that said, d'Vanecu is also at a point where we can generally hit the yearly quota
[5:26 AM]
Also is anything planned to change on the distinction between greater/lesser houses, and historical/non-historical houses? What about family orientations, or how family titles change as they accumulate points?
Uzriel
What sort of customizable things are in consideration? Or is it still too early to say? I will say I'm possibly in a minority here, but I actually enjoy the "watch family numbers creep up game" - that said, d'Vanecu is also at a point where we can generally hit the yearly quota
Ais — Yesterday at 5:31 AM
Still too early to say. All I can really confirm is we do see the issues with the current system and are trying to avoid making the same mistakes
What sort of customizable things are in consideration? Or is it still too early to say? I will say I'm possibly in a minority here, but I actually enjoy the "watch family numbers creep up game" - that said, d'Vanecu is also at a point where we can generally hit the yearly quota
[5:26 AM]
Also is anything planned to change on the distinction between greater/lesser houses, and historical/non-historical houses? What about family orientations, or how family titles change as they accumulate points?
Uzriel
What sort of customizable things are in consideration? Or is it still too early to say? I will say I'm possibly in a minority here, but I actually enjoy the "watch family numbers creep up game" - that said, d'Vanecu is also at a point where we can generally hit the yearly quota
Ais — Yesterday at 5:31 AM
Still too early to say. All I can really confirm is we do see the issues with the current system and are trying to avoid making the same mistakes
Spoiler
Huskii — Today at 5:57 AM
I'ld think Homesteads, but that's a but after trying Aetolia, that could get silly... Perhaps investable Manse stuff? Cartels? Family 'artifact' weapons/focis?
Uzriel — Today at 6:02 AM
Is it possible to get a way to see the list of families back? Even without the rankings can be fun to see the list of families and what type they are
Llani — Today at 6:06 AM
with a family crest, it would be neat to be able to add it to crafted items - transforming something from like 'a pair of pink pantaloons' to 'a pair of pink pantaloons bearing the Myeras family crest' or something along those lines, and it appends the crest desc to the end of the item's desc. Possibly in color at some certain reward threshold.
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Comments
As far as the question of any honour resets, I would lean towards simply converting over to the new system with current honour intact. Since it will be a question of roleplay elements, there won't really be any particular unfair advantage the more established houses will have over everyone else, and it would make sense that some of the ancient/historical/well established families would have a bunch of fancy stuff from the start anyway.
System ideas. Things not yet counted - designing, Vernal Ascendant in home org, literal fame or infamy in being named in event posts. Completing an epic quest for home org?
Perhaps points could be spent to have custom items or mobs in family homesteads, rather than rooms? Or family points could be an alternative to spending gold to get one of the bookbinding seal certificates? Kind of roleplaying trading on prestige and recognition.
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