So this was mostly tl;dr after the first few paragraphs were dripping with venom, but it's obvious that you've missed the point entirely. Man, I'm not complaining. I'm not whining. I don't know how else to say that. I'm not speaking for the masses, no one asked me to say anything. I was expressing my perspective to you in the hopes that you might reconsider the results of your actions.
If I were in your shoes and my gameplay was genuinely bothering people on a personal level, I would want to know about it, and at least try to explain to and sympathize with the other party. As other people have said, there are real people on the other side of the keyboard, and as much as you want to make your game an IC experience, people have real feelings and want to enjoy the game too. I'm sorry that you can't see it that way, and I'm sorry to the Lusternia community for inspriring this thread of a gross overreaction to something that I thought was a simple request. Shame on me.
As a note, he has edited it so it is much more readable now.
So this was mostly tl;dr after the first few paragraphs were dripping with venom, but it's obvious that you've missed the point entirely. Man, I'm not complaining. I'm not whining. I don't know how else to say that. I'm not speaking for the masses, no one asked me to say anything. I was expressing my perspective to you in the hopes that you might reconsider the results of your actions.
If I were in your shoes and my gameplay was genuinely bothering people on a personal level, I would want to know about it, and at least try to explain to and sympathize with the other party. As other people have said, there are real people on the other side of the keyboard, and as much as you want to make your game an IC experience, people have real feelings and want to enjoy the game too. I'm sorry that you can't see it that way, and I'm sorry to the Lusternia community for inspriring this thread of a gross overreaction to something that I thought was a simple request. Shame on me.
I'm not missing anything. I'm not misunderstanding your point. I get it.
My reply is: tell the people who are complaining and saying they are having a bad time to speak up about it.
I never sought to grief you the way that you guys are doing to some of these kids.
I'm not seeking to grief anyone. There are three people I actively single out: Tridemon, Aesic, and Romaan. Tridemon and Aesic for very, very big IC reasons that encompass the entirety of Glomdoring, and Romaan because Kio holds a grudge. If you haven't noticed, Kio hasn't been stalking Romaan nearly as much lately. Probably because he thinks the poor guy has had enough. I don't control other people, though.
I've heard a lot of people complain
OOCly, people who really have not earned the kind of attention you guys have been giving them.
That's fine. I complain OOCly about IC things all the time. When it gets to the point that a conversation between you and me has you using the words "grief," "griefer," and "griefing" seven times, it starts to feel pretty serious. Like I said, I understand where you're coming from. Things like this can lead to a toxic feel to the game. You can feel like you shouldn't leave your org (and if you read some Glom newsposts, there are people who are supposed to feel like that for very specific reasons). If the people complaining feel like it's becoming a problem on an OOC level, I'm asking you to tell them to talk to me about it. Because that's how the situation needs to be handled.
Okay, I think you missed the point. If I wanted an IC explanation, I would have
talked to you ICly. But you're crossing the line between character-justified griefing and just being
way too much for a game that is supposed to be fun and enjoyed.
I didn't miss the point. I heard it loud and clear. I just don't see it as an issue. You got an IC explanation because all of Kio's "griefing" is driving by IC interaction. All of it.
There have been a lot of forums threads and talk lately about what is
acceptable griefing, and I just wanted you to know that a lot of people on this side of the fence
recognize you as probably the worst offender of this.
That's fine. All the kids in highschool talked about me behind my back, too. I never heard it, so it never bothered me. If you think it's legitimately a problem, please tell these people to approach me so that we can solve it.
Well, I'm not going to quote what was said, but...
You are an enemy of the Divine Order of Shikari, the Predator. You were enemied on 19th Dvarsh 358. The reason for your enemying: 'Slaying a lean, barefoot scout'
And I can tell you how it went. Domoth opened, someone challenged, tried to get it. I went up to help, had a meld going, etc. A certain avatar of Shikari pops in, calls invasion, wrath, distort, enemies everyone he can scent. So here I am, being chased by 4 scouts when said person gives up and unenemies... in the spam (because really, I'm hit and running the 4 mobs chasing me) I miss the whole "you were unenemied" bit and keep hitting them, I get reenemied. So yeah, sorry but, enemying someone, calling invasion and then unenemying is rather the cheap way to go about the whole thing.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
There is PK, it's a pretty big part of the game from what I've seen. Deal with it, I guess:
1. try to talk to them, A good try, but as we've seen, people will have many, many reasons to continue PKing you to Aetolia and back.
2. fight back, or By far the most exciting, I think, but obviously not everyone wants to or can PK. Some people don't like apples and would really love oranges; we can't change that.
3. join what you can't beat. On the plus side, the winning side usually has the resources and stability to help you along. I can personally attest to this - moving to Glomdoring has taught me some basic (but useful) things about the game and fighting to survive it.
PS
I still really do love the futility of Serenwilde RP, though. Something about fighting a lost cause. I just need some time to figure out the complexity of Lusternia. Then maybe I'll start up an alternate character in the Moondancers again
Starting this thread was a mistake. Getting griefed comes with the territory of playing this game. You can convince Kio to stop, Xenthos to give a blanket amnesty to all Shikari order enemies, and even Celina to come back as a non-com, and griefing will still continue. In a game where the adrenaline and titillation of winning a PK fight is built on the frustration and tears of the loser, there will be no such thing as "acceptable" levels of griefing. The moment you kill someone, you're bringing them distress and misery. A "healthy" game environment where there is just the right amount of conflict and everyone goes home happy and feeling warm after a large PK team fight? Come on, anyone who believes such is possible is just imagining a fairy tale. If you want to feel blessed and loved and sweet, find your life partner for a cuddle or romp, not play a PK game. Victim mentality ensures that however low you set the bar, whoever is on the receiving end will cry foul.
Did someone want to quit this game because of the recent shenanigans? I think that person has the right idea: when the game is no longer fun, leave it and find something else to play. Before curios, it was impossible to delete a credit-bought character. Now, however, we have people liquidating their assets for no reason than rage. Take away that functionality, and we'll have as perfect an ecosystem as we can have of people who leave to cool down and can come back and pick up their game again when they feel better. Nothing much else can be done or can change.
Wait, wait. I unenemy everyone to Shikari when it's done, except for people (edit: when they are not currently an enemy) who murder scouts. Blanket amnesties aren't even needed here. :P
Oh, in case anyone's wondering: I've tried the PK-only-with-minimal-RP thing when I killed Caerlyr on Serenwilde. It really didn't appeal to me, but I guess some people like that kind of PK? Since then I've only participated on PK with distinct RP causes, like that Faethorn fight when Serenwilde and Glomdoring were fighting over fae. I loved that one.
Oh, in case anyone's wondering: I've tried the PK-only-with-minimal-RP thing when I killed Caerlyr on Serenwilde. It really didn't appeal to me, but I guess some people like that kind of PK? Since then I've only participated on PK with distinct RP causes, like that Faethorn fight when Serenwilde and Glomdoring were fighting over fae. I loved that one.
If you mean dreamweaving into Serenwilde and killing someone, sure
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Oh, in case anyone's wondering: I've tried the PK-only-with-minimal-RP thing when I killed Caerlyr on Serenwilde. It really didn't appeal to me, but I guess some people like that kind of PK? Since then I've only participated on PK with distinct RP causes, like that Faethorn fight when Serenwilde and Glomdoring were fighting over fae. I loved that one.
Minimal RP? You walked onto the nexus when I was AFK and just damaged me out >.>
My poor XP!
(How much did you gain from that, out of curiosity? She's just shy of demi, so it would have been a considerable amount).
Oh, in case anyone's wondering: I've tried the PK-only-with-minimal-RP thing when I killed Caerlyr on Serenwilde. It really didn't appeal to me, but I guess some people like that kind of PK? Since then I've only participated on PK with distinct RP causes, like that Faethorn fight when Serenwilde and Glomdoring were fighting over fae. I loved that one.
If you mean dreamweaving into Serenwilde and killing someone, sure
He wasn't dreamweaving. She just got straight-out autobashed, heh.
Starting this thread was a mistake. Getting griefed comes with the territory of playing this game. You can convince Kio to stop, Xenthos to give a blanket amnesty to all Shikari order enemies, and even Celina to come back as a non-com, and griefing will still continue. In a game where the adrenaline and titillation of winning a PK fight is built on the frustration and tears of the loser, there will be no such thing as "acceptable" levels of griefing. The moment you kill someone, you're bringing them distress and misery. A "healthy" game environment where there is just the right amount of conflict and everyone goes home happy and feeling warm after a large PK team fight? Come on, anyone who believes such is possible is just imagining a fairy tale. If you want to feel blessed and loved and sweet, find your life partner for a cuddle or romp, not play a PK game. Victim mentality ensures that however low you set the bar, whoever is on the receiving end will cry foul.
Did someone want to quit this game because of the recent shenanigans? I think that person has the right idea: when the game is no longer fun, leave it and find something else to play. Before curios, it was impossible to delete a credit-bought character. Now, however, we have people liquidating their assets for no reason than rage. Take away that functionality, and we'll have as perfect an ecosystem as we can have of people who leave to cool down and can come back and pick up their game again when they feel better. Nothing much else can be done or can change.
Not like anything is gonna change. It's obvious that 'feature' was introduced for no other reason than financial gain for IRE.
I don't know. I've been a top PVPer in the 'evil' org of a different IRE, and while I've always been very much about staying IC and RPing there, I've never really wantonly killed enemies wherever I found them. From an OOC perspective, I don't really see what's fun about wtfpwning someone when you know there'll be no challenge, and from an RP perspective, you can just ignore them or antagonize them in emotes/says for kicks. And sure, that's meta-gamy, but a small amount of meta-gaming for the health of the game isn't gonna be death of all your RP integrity. Plus, it just happens. I don't think I would mind here anymore, because I can just scrape an aethercrew together and get that XP back, but for some people (particularly Titans), that's a substantial amount of IRL time/effort that's just gone to waste over a conflict they couldn't actually win.
I do think your rationale has its merits, @Kio (and just from logs I've read, you seem like an awesome RPer!), but to parrot others a bit, this is something to consider as well.
EDIT: But to others, yeah... Griefing will always happen in these games. Discourage it as we can, to some extent you just have to learn to deal with it.
There is PK, it's a pretty big part of the game from what I've seen. Deal with it, I guess:
1. try to talk to them, A good try, but as we've seen, people will have many, many reasons to continue PKing you to Aetolia and back.
2. fight back, or By far the most exciting, I think, but obviously not everyone wants to or can PK. Some people don't like apples and would really love oranges; we can't change that.
3. join what you can't beat. On the plus side, the winning side usually has the resources and stability to help you along. I can personally attest to this - moving to Glomdoring has taught me some basic (but useful) things about the game and fighting to survive it.
PS
I still really do love the futility of Serenwilde RP, though. Something about fighting a lost cause. I just need some time to figure out the complexity of Lusternia. Then maybe I'll start up an alternate character in the Moondancers again
1) Yeah, that doesn't really work. IRE's style of muds is built around conflict as the primary game mechanic, it's what's supposed to keep people involved and give their characters more definition. There's enough IC reasons to keep disagreeing that talking's a bit of a rubbish option (see back when Glom was new and MD leadership was actively trying to find IC reasons to stop our champion going on all-out griefing sprees).
2) My preferred option. Currently I'm at the point where I just watch what my system does so I can patch the holes, if it's nothing crucial. I'm one of those people who just doesn't mind character death. It's a mechanical thing that happens, but the best thing to do with it is look at what happened and try and work out how to avoid that death in the future.
3) Really, really dislike this option. Easy way of explaining why: Glom kills Seren, Seren goes to Glom, Glom population ++, Seren population --, chances of Serenwilde recovering to a decent point --.
Also, your last point is the bit that is the only thing about the situation that currently gets me a bit twitchy. IMO, if it gets to the point where someone can look at their experiences in a culture and say "Well it's all a bit futile", and others are/have been/were thinking the same thing, something's gone wrong, because that's when it becomes less fun to play. Big example for me at the moment is with the raising and removal of Viravain's shrines in Faethorn. We drop them, they go back up, over and over again. Laysus wouldn't let them stay there, but then I only get a few hours a day to play and can't be around a lot of weekends due to work and life, and then I get the option of trying to ignore these things or spend all my time logged on gathering esteem to defile and all that boredom. Futility is not fun. And I'll stop there before I get ranting about the population of Serenwilde/the game on the whole/skewed power distribution due to the above
Edit: Better way of putting it. Futility is the bit that makes me want to log off and go do something that doesn't make me feel like I'm just wasting time and effort.
Please note: I deliberately play a very flawed character. Just because he says or does something, does not mean I agree with it. He's a bit of a <censored> really
On the whole though, I have to agree with the bits I got of Kio's post when I was reading it (I may have condensed it down a bit in my head) - if you're going to get enemied to an organisation, then you are fair game. You need to understand that when you undertake such actions as to get enemied. However, sportsmanship is a nice thing and it's good not to kick people when they're down, and remember that if you're just going out and killing every enemy you see it's going to end up rubbish for someone.
Please note: I deliberately play a very flawed character. Just because he says or does something, does not mean I agree with it. He's a bit of a <censored> really
Thing is, the "if you get enemied you're fair game" argument only works if the leadership of an org polices the enemyings. I was once enemied to Mag for standing at the Master Ravenwood (a common place for people to stand) while other people there put up a terror coven. I never attacked anyone (heck, I wasn't even part of the coven), but I still got enemied. I did manage to get it resolved a couple of days later, but... yeah. There will always be people who enemy people by association, more or less.
True, that. And then there's things like "we're at war, they're all enemies" style policy to mess with that too.
Please note: I deliberately play a very flawed character. Just because he says or does something, does not mean I agree with it. He's a bit of a <censored> really
I think the main gripe in this thread (from both sides?) is that there is little communication going on, except OOC banter.
I haven't heard from Celest since our messy breakup... </3 ...And I feel like busting out some Gotye here.
Anyway, my point is... if someone takes the time and effort to send me a tell/message/letter with their concern, I will always respond (except to Iytha during that whole saga, because, we weren't the bad guys! ...even if we were?). I always bring my serious concerns to the feet of the CL who has the power to do something about it, and I'd like to think that if there is unwanted pressure felt by a certain org, then they would approach us to work it out.
I'd like to make this point about unenemying, too. How many of you here have approached Svorai as Ambassador and had your enemy status removed quickly? A fair few, and perhaps some others who don't frequent the forums (there's one still on my plate, that I'm looking into -- don't panic!).
Contrary to popular belief, if some people in Glom caught whiff of others in the org enemying without justifiable cause, *they* would be disfavoured, and the branding more or less removed. Every case is different, but this blanket 'Glom just enemies for everything, even if you're defending' is not true. And if it is true, speak up.
No one is saying to anyone to stop pking, to snuggle your enemies and end conflict forever, not at all. Just be a responsible griefer. Make them cry every second time you see them step of their nexus, maybe, or every third. I never go by 'it's just a game', I am more, 'remember it IS a game, and thus should be fun, not just for me, but for everyone.' Who really wants to play on their own? Tears will always flow, people will always grief, but if everyone pulls themselves up once in a while and considers their actions and alters them slightly for the good of the game, what can we lose?
No one is saying to anyone to stop pking, to snuggle your enemies and end conflict forever, not at all. Just be a responsible griefer. Make them cry every second time you see them step of their nexus, maybe, or every third. I never go by 'it's just a game', I am more, 'remember it IS a game, and thus should be fun, not just for me, but for everyone.' Who really wants to play on their own? Tears will always flow, people will always grief, but if everyone pulls themselves up once in a while and considers their actions and alters them slightly for the good of the game, what can we lose?
All the e-peens is what we'll lose. *shrug* To me, it's been pointless ever since I was 3 weeks into Seren. Getting raided/murdered several times/day is such an entertaining way to go about the game. I moved to Glom and there were points in time when I just felt bad about the amount of killing that was being delivered. Sure, winning was fun, but... you get the idea, there are just times when you pretend to not be on so the other side has a bit of a better chance. But fact is, I doubt I'd need more than the fingers on both my hands to count the people that will willingly fight on our side of the alliance right now. I'll need four-five extra hands to count the other side... so yeah, the overall feeling is that everything is futile... and for someone that focuses primarily on combat, it gets even worse... because you go over logs numerous times and keep digging for something that could have been done better, or something that you could have done differently to result in a better outcome... and you keep drawing a blank simply because fights tend to be something along the lines of three-to-one lately. I've had chats with the rest of Halli's fighters and well... nowadays, we're just tempted to say screw it all and go grow some flowers instead of bothering with repeatedly getting bashed in... then having to go spend hours bashing to get experience back (And yes, the fact that one of our friendly organizations keeps going astral bashing and never bothers to say... "hey, you guys died like 6-7 times last time we were trying to get a domoth, wanna come along?" doesn't help the general level of enjoyment) And as I told someone... if you guys just keep winning all the time, you will eventually find that there's no-one left to fight. I'm sure that will make the game -really- fun.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
No one is saying to anyone to stop pking, to snuggle your enemies and end conflict forever, not at all. Just be a responsible griefer. Make them cry every second time you see them step of their nexus, maybe, or every third. I never go by 'it's just a game', I am more, 'remember it IS a game, and thus should be fun, not just for me, but for everyone.' Who really wants to play on their own? Tears will always flow, people will always grief, but if everyone pulls themselves up once in a while and considers their actions and alters them slightly for the good of the game, what can we lose?
All the e-peens is what we'll lose. *shrug* To me, it's been pointless ever since I was 3 weeks into Seren. Getting raided/murdered several times/day is such an entertaining way to go about the game. I moved to Glom and there were points in time when I just felt bad about the amount of killing that was being delivered. Sure, winning was fun, but... you get the idea, there are just times when you pretend to not be on so the other side has a bit of a better chance. But fact is, I doubt I'd need more than the fingers on both my hands to count the people that will willingly fight on our side of the alliance right now. I'll need four-five extra hands to count the other side... so yeah, the overall feeling is that everything is futile... and for someone that focuses primarily on combat, it gets even worse... because you go over logs numerous times and keep digging for something that could have been done better, or something that you could have done differently to result in a better outcome... and you keep drawing a blank simply because fights tend to be something along the lines of three-to-one lately. I've had chats with the rest of Halli's fighters and well... nowadays, we're just tempted to say screw it all and go grow some flowers instead of bothering with repeatedly getting bashed in... then having to go spend hours bashing to get experience back (And yes, the fact that one of our friendly organizations keeps going astral bashing and never bothers to say... "hey, you guys died like 6-7 times last time we were trying to get a domoth, wanna come along?" doesn't help the general level of enjoyment) And as I told someone... if you guys just keep winning all the time, you will eventually find that there's no-one left to fight. I'm sure that will make the game -really- fun.
People have been saying "It will be really fun when the other side quits" for real-life years now- on both sides. It's never happened. It seems to be a fairly dramatic statement that doesn't actually manifest itself in reality, and doesn't add anything to a discussion.
Why not just ask the astral-bashers if you can join?
Firstly, yes it is only just a game. If you're participating in something that leaves you open to PK, don't ever be surprised that you got killed.. Thats just basics.
There IS however a limit to what should be done. Just because someone is an enemy and you may have just cause to attack/kill them, it doesn't ALWAYS mean you should. It's previously been stated before and it's VERY true.
The health of the game is always the number 1 thing that should be kept in mind. I came to Lusternia because of a friend- not because I stumbled upon it randomly. There are many novices who choose not to stay. Personally, I felt that it weren't for my friend being there, the novice assistance situation is beyond poor. This is not due to people giving a damn, but because there are so few people, and spread so thin across the orgs.
This is a huge dilemma. I don't CARE if I die, RP or otherwise reasons. Experience can always be regained, but it's the concept behind the attacking. Sure, you have RP cause- but is it REALLY necessary? How many times have I killed this person today? this week? I don't mean to put it into a literal sense of keeping count- but when you recognize you keep killing the same person over and over- it becomes less fun for everyone. The city who loses a player so they can join another city just to avoid being constantly killed, or the game losing the player entirely because they're not having fun.
From my perspective, Dying on astral is NOW not so much of an issue because of conglut, but before that.. dying 3 times in an hour because someone saw you and you're an enemy faction- that's just kind of douchey to do.
Being a good PLAYER isn't always about roleplaying the best. It's knowing how to limit yourself or your org for the best of the environment.
I can guarantee none of you would have fun if you had to fight the same 6-10 people every day with 0 change. Let's work on making it a more inviting environment by being good players.
<please keep in mind that I wrote this post over the course of about two hours- spending some time to watch a show. There may be inconsistencies on how it sounds. the concept should still make sense though.>
No one is saying to anyone to stop pking, to snuggle your enemies and end conflict forever, not at all. Just be a responsible griefer. Make them cry every second time you see them step of their nexus, maybe, or every third.
I don't think you really understand the frequency people get killed in relation to how often they're dangling the carrot on a stick.
As it stands, every third time is about accurate to the number of times I've come across people, special exceptions notwithstanding, the reason it's still so frequent is some people simply live off Prime with the assumption that they don't have to do a damn thing to stay alert. It's like going into a PvP zone on most MMORPGs and starting to fish or hunt or something else where you stop paying attention, and then suddenly lose your cool because you got killed.
At the end of the day there's little reason to ever leave the safety of Prime. Should you choose to go up there, be careful, tread softly and either carry a big hammer or have an escape route planned. Case in point if I'm ever bashing off prime, or in enemy territory, I pretty much scent on balance now, have aliases to stop drop and gtfo if I need to.
Furthermore you've now heard it directly from several of Glomdoring's leadership that we're trying to deal with situations where people were unfairly branded, and if people don't want to be targets, they should seek to be unbranded, and if someone permanently re-enemies them with a flaky reason, it will be dealt with. So approaching people OOCly, for yourself or on behalf of others, is pointless. There's people here who talk a lot about how they dislike the metagame, and they hate people acting off OOC knowledge, or OOC preferences or OOC motivations, that are now saying that OOC logic should dictate character response. You can't have your cake and eat it, and there is a perfectly suitable means of conflict resolution ICly, feel free to take it up.
Also, repeating myself here but I'll elaborate: No. This game is never going to be simply one side all leaving and no conflict ever, because people will always turn up to revolts, wildnodes, domoths, aetherflares, raid/enemy territory defences etc. It didn't happen when EA rolled over the Basin, cosmic/ethereal planes were raided several times a day, god realms were cleared out, city statues got destroyed and we had roaming gank squads declaring new players on prime. It didn't happen post split when the North was kicked to the curb, raided constantly, lost all villages/domoths/bubbles and got mullered in the most one sided Ascension, it didn't happen when a lot of the South stopped playing over the summer and the remainder was subjected to constant off peak raids, loyal mob kick runs, off prime gank attempts that were several hours of scrying on end. It never happened in any of those circumstances, so it's not going to happen now.
While I'm in rant mode, I might as well get this off my chest. From what I hear out of other people in various orgs, a lot of player retention issues aren't because the other side are being mean and killing you, it's because people are infighting in their organisations and griefing their own citizens/members to the point people don't want to play there anymore. Then I read from someone in this thread how this game isn't fun, not because of people griefing other people, but because one side is winning and the other side doesn't feel there's any point in trying to fight. To me the mixture of infighting and apathy is the perfect concoction of a toxic environment, I spent enough time in one when I first started playing to know what a complete motivation killer it is, more so than what people outside the org were doing to us/me.
So now I'm seeing a set of underlying problems here that are killing off people's enjoyment of the game, which aren't anything to do with people getting killed off Prime because they did something to get enemied to an organisation. Furthermore people are being offered decent means to resolve that issue (if it is an issue) in game, in character and all we've got is OOC complaining and hyperbole about how this will kill the game, and no one actually willing to go along with what's offered. I may just be a cynical bastard but this is starting to sound like the whole "griefers making it toxic" is just a cover for actual problems that people should be fixing, but rather than do that it's easier to point fingers.
Yes I'm aware this isn't the happiest post in the world, and I've done my best to refrain from snark and insults. Anything left you find insulting is my blunt honest opinion, and I'm not going to curb that when there's no real alternative way to say people are trying to make a scapegoat out of me for bigger problems they should be dealing with.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Heh, okay, Mork... good one. I gave up on the Illithoid Prison as a hunting ground completely because I kept getting jumped down there by someone who shall remain unnamed... 3 days, I counted over 10 attempts to jump me... that's not griefing? I can understand if there were different people trying that out, but... really, same person, 10 times over 3 days? Tsk. And news flash... if people are frustrated with other aspects of the game, they're not likely to be very able to put a smile on their face and help novices when asked to do so. I'll be the first to admit that yeah, I suck at dealing with novices, and I tend to answer questions in a pretty dry fashion when asked... not to mention getting annoyed when I ask a question and they don't give me an answer, but eh... that's why most of the time I try not to deal with them in the first place, but still... when I've spent the past 4 hours getting more and more frustrated with each passing moment, I tend to be even worse. I rather doubt I'm the only one there.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Considering several people go down there for quests, influencing, and generally watching over the place the same way people watch Keph Hives and the Arysian Isle are you telling me you're surprised to find resistance there? If you're going down there enough in 3 days to get jumped 10 times then you're really just asking for it by the end, you know the area is risky and you make the choice to go anyway knowing that there's a high chance you're going to run into that person that you went 10 times in 3 days.
Now if you were being scried constantly by this person who was just waiting to catch you somewhere they could kill you, 10 times over 3 days, then yes you've got a point it's griefing.
Also these issues with novices aren't short term, some orgs have been crummy with novice retention and teaching for some time, funnily you then get people in charge complaining that their new guys suck in combat and don't do what they're told, completely ignoring the fact said new kids signed up because they wanted to help and take part! Considering the fact that those people have never said two words to these novices before and just assume they know things, rather than showing them the ropes, or even at times answering their questions in the pauses between fights, how is that a positive environment for people to get interested in the game?
Actually I'll make a point during the summer of crappy for the south we've just had, a lot of the focus was on the realisation we'd lost a lot of old players who one way or another weren't coming back or could no longer be depended on, so we focused on the newer people, the people stepping up to take on new roles and new experiences. End result? Everything keeps running smoothly, more people are experienced and we've not ended up with 1-2 people doing all the work.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
During my fairly short (1 week) time in Serenwilde, there didn't seem to be any infighting at all. In fact, you're always bound to catch a conversation whenever there are at least two of you in a room (and no, it's not snuggly snuggly - most of the time it was "How are you doing?" and "Did you know (there are quests in villages/you can influence fae/etc.)?"). They were fairly good at engaging novices (or maybe I was just lucky?). But it quickly became apparent that being in a 'losing side' organization severely limited the places I could visit, so I packed up tried out an organization which had freer access to things.
Comments
As a note, he has edited it so it is much more readable now.
You are an enemy of the Divine Order of Shikari, the Predator.
You were enemied on 19th Dvarsh 358.
The reason for your enemying: 'Slaying a lean, barefoot scout'
And I can tell you how it went. Domoth opened, someone challenged, tried to get it. I went up to help, had a meld going, etc. A certain avatar of Shikari pops in, calls invasion, wrath, distort, enemies everyone he can scent. So here I am, being chased by 4 scouts when said person gives up and unenemies... in the spam (because really, I'm hit and running the 4 mobs chasing me) I miss the whole "you were unenemied" bit and keep hitting them, I get reenemied. So yeah, sorry but, enemying someone, calling invasion and then unenemying is rather the cheap way to go about the whole thing.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Can't really blame people for using what's available to them.
1. try to talk to them,
A good try, but as we've seen, people will have many, many reasons to continue PKing you to Aetolia and back.
2. fight back, or
By far the most exciting, I think, but obviously not everyone wants to or can PK. Some people don't like apples and would really love oranges; we can't change that.
3. join what you can't beat.
On the plus side, the winning side usually has the resources and stability to help you along. I can personally attest to this - moving to Glomdoring has taught me some basic (but useful) things about the game and fighting to survive it.
PS
I still really do love the futility of Serenwilde RP, though. Something about fighting a lost cause. I just need some time to figure out the complexity of Lusternia. Then maybe I'll start up an alternate character in the Moondancers again
Did someone want to quit this game because of the recent shenanigans? I think that person has the right idea: when the game is no longer fun, leave it and find something else to play. Before curios, it was impossible to delete a credit-bought character. Now, however, we have people liquidating their assets for no reason than rage. Take away that functionality, and we'll have as perfect an ecosystem as we can have of people who leave to cool down and can come back and pick up their game again when they feel better. Nothing much else can be done or can change.
My poor XP!
(How much did you gain from that, out of curiosity? She's just shy of demi, so it would have been a considerable amount).
He wasn't dreamweaving. She just got straight-out autobashed, heh.
Not like anything is gonna change. It's obvious that 'feature' was introduced for no other reason than financial gain for IRE.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Why not just ask the astral-bashers if you can join?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
There IS however a limit to what should be done. Just because someone is an enemy and you may have just cause to attack/kill them, it doesn't ALWAYS mean you should. It's previously been stated before and it's VERY true.
The health of the game is always the number 1 thing that should be kept in mind. I came to Lusternia because of a friend- not because I stumbled upon it randomly. There are many novices who choose not to stay. Personally, I felt that it weren't for my friend being there, the novice assistance situation is beyond poor. This is not due to people giving a damn, but because there are so few people, and spread so thin across the orgs.
This is a huge dilemma. I don't CARE if I die, RP or otherwise reasons. Experience can always be regained, but it's the concept behind the attacking. Sure, you have RP cause- but is it REALLY necessary? How many times have I killed this person today? this week? I don't mean to put it into a literal sense of keeping count- but when you recognize you keep killing the same person over and over- it becomes less fun for everyone. The city who loses a player so they can join another city just to avoid being constantly killed, or the game losing the player entirely because they're not having fun.
From my perspective, Dying on astral is NOW not so much of an issue because of conglut, but before that.. dying 3 times in an hour because someone saw you and you're an enemy faction- that's just kind of douchey to do.
Being a good PLAYER isn't always about roleplaying the best. It's knowing how to limit yourself or your org for the best of the environment.
I can guarantee none of you would have fun if you had to fight the same 6-10 people every day with 0 change. Let's work on making it a more inviting environment by being good players.
<please keep in mind that I wrote this post over the course of about two hours- spending some time to watch a show. There may be inconsistencies on how it sounds. the concept should still make sense though.>
As it stands, every third time is about accurate to the number of times I've come across people, special exceptions notwithstanding, the reason it's still so frequent is some people simply live off Prime with the assumption that they don't have to do a damn thing to stay alert. It's like going into a PvP zone on most MMORPGs and starting to fish or hunt or something else where you stop paying attention, and then suddenly lose your cool because you got killed.
Furthermore you've now heard it directly from several of Glomdoring's leadership that we're trying to deal with situations where people were unfairly branded, and if people don't want to be targets, they should seek to be unbranded, and if someone permanently re-enemies them with a flaky reason, it will be dealt with. So approaching people OOCly, for yourself or on behalf of others, is pointless. There's people here who talk a lot about how they dislike the metagame, and they hate people acting off OOC knowledge, or OOC preferences or OOC motivations, that are now saying that OOC logic should dictate character response. You can't have your cake and eat it, and there is a perfectly suitable means of conflict resolution ICly, feel free to take it up.
Also, repeating myself here but I'll elaborate: No. This game is never going to be simply one side all leaving and no conflict ever, because people will always turn up to revolts, wildnodes, domoths, aetherflares, raid/enemy territory defences etc. It didn't happen when EA rolled over the Basin, cosmic/ethereal planes were raided several times a day, god realms were cleared out, city statues got destroyed and we had roaming gank squads declaring new players on prime. It didn't happen post split when the North was kicked to the curb, raided constantly, lost all villages/domoths/bubbles and got mullered in the most one sided Ascension, it didn't happen when a lot of the South stopped playing over the summer and the remainder was subjected to constant off peak raids, loyal mob kick runs, off prime gank attempts that were several hours of scrying on end. It never happened in any of those circumstances, so it's not going to happen now.
While I'm in rant mode, I might as well get this off my chest. From what I hear out of other people in various orgs, a lot of player retention issues aren't because the other side are being mean and killing you, it's because people are infighting in their organisations and griefing their own citizens/members to the point people don't want to play there anymore. Then I read from someone in this thread how this game isn't fun, not because of people griefing other people, but because one side is winning and the other side doesn't feel there's any point in trying to fight. To me the mixture of infighting and apathy is the perfect concoction of a toxic environment, I spent enough time in one when I first started playing to know what a complete motivation killer it is, more so than what people outside the org were doing to us/me.
So now I'm seeing a set of underlying problems here that are killing off people's enjoyment of the game, which aren't anything to do with people getting killed off Prime because they did something to get enemied to an organisation. Furthermore people are being offered decent means to resolve that issue (if it is an issue) in game, in character and all we've got is OOC complaining and hyperbole about how this will kill the game, and no one actually willing to go along with what's offered. I may just be a cynical bastard but this is starting to sound like the whole "griefers making it toxic" is just a cover for actual problems that people should be fixing, but rather than do that it's easier to point fingers.
Yes I'm aware this isn't the happiest post in the world, and I've done my best to refrain from snark and insults. Anything left you find insulting is my blunt honest opinion, and I'm not going to curb that when there's no real alternative way to say people are trying to make a scapegoat out of me for bigger problems they should be dealing with.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Now if you were being scried constantly by this person who was just waiting to catch you somewhere they could kill you, 10 times over 3 days, then yes you've got a point it's griefing.
Also these issues with novices aren't short term, some orgs have been crummy with novice retention and teaching for some time, funnily you then get people in charge complaining that their new guys suck in combat and don't do what they're told, completely ignoring the fact said new kids signed up because they wanted to help and take part! Considering the fact that those people have never said two words to these novices before and just assume they know things, rather than showing them the ropes, or even at times answering their questions in the pauses between fights, how is that a positive environment for people to get interested in the game?
Actually I'll make a point during the summer of crappy for the south we've just had, a lot of the focus was on the realisation we'd lost a lot of old players who one way or another weren't coming back or could no longer be depended on, so we focused on the newer people, the people stepping up to take on new roles and new experiences. End result? Everything keeps running smoothly, more people are experienced and we've not ended up with 1-2 people doing all the work.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!