Endurance and Willpower

Liok · March 2013

If the goal is to make Lusternia simpler and easier to get into, Endurance and Willpower are probably at the very bottom of the list. Achaea was my first MUD, and while I was a newbie, never once did I stop and say "what the heck is this crap?"

Same goes here. Endurance and Willpower aren't confusing, they're just annoying. If you want to make Lusternia easier to get into, I'd suggest looking elsewhere (though my honest suggestion is to not go this route at all; the complexity of Lusternian combat [and everything else, for the matter] is a key selling point on it over the other IREs, if you ask me).

But, if you wanna get of it so I can inscribe more than 200 Tarot cards a night, go for it.

Lothringen · March 2013

I don't think endurance and willpower add anything especially meaningful or important to the game; therefore, I support their removal.

Ragniliff · March 2013

Eventru said:
It's important to remember the goal - make Lusternia simpler and easier to get into. Would removing Endurance/Willpower make the game simpler, and what are the pros and cons of it (months of rebalancing and dozens of cooldowns, limited uses, new mechanics to achieve the effect willpower has now, etc seem like they might fall under 'cons').

I'm thinking the cons will prevent it from being simpler, tbh, and will have to agree with Daedalion and Rivius. I'll also echo Liok here, in that I didn't really pay much attention to endurance and willpower until at least a few weeks into things.

The only particular issues I see end/wp making are:

- Capping how long newbies with low discipline/resilience can bash
- Limiting how much people can get out of tarot/runes/etc

Which are easy enough to address without going through the whole fuss and affair of removing end/wp from the game. Even then, they don't really make the game that much more complex or confusing. They're just annoying.

Anyone who supports their removal should start throwing around ideas now. I'm pretty sure most people don't want halved power regen on crushed chest, but who knows. Heh.

Nihta · March 2013

I had never played a mud at all before I came to Lusternia. Having played any mmorpg though, I think it is easy to understand what endurance and willpower do after a quick explanation. If we want to keep newbies bashing longer, I think the best solution would be to remove the clot willpower cost and the basic newbie bashing attack willpower/endurance cost, along with a few other select lower level skills - maybe even make rune carving and deck making take a % will instead of a absolute amount so that newbies effectively will have the same amount as demigods.

The most complex thing about getting into Lusternia (as a first time mudder) was, for me, 1) learning how the heck to get around, 2) figuring out the combat system which involves probably over 100 afflictions, and 3) finding ways to scrounge lessons - there are a lot of skills which require a lot of lessons, and there are only 5 per level.

The map solves problem 1, problem 2 is kind of a feature when you get used to it, and problem 3, well maybe we could up the lessons per level to 10 or 15 + bonuses. That would still probably not be enough to trans even one skill.

tl;dr while I am not sure how much willpower and endurance contribute to the game, I am pretty sure that removing them would not actively add to the game in any meaningful way. I don't think 2 stats which are fairly straightforward to understand are holding Lusternia back.

Malayn · March 2013

I like to think (though I could be wrong) that the reason you do not notice your willpower and endurance is monks behaving civilly.

A broken chest is 500 endurance lost, a crushed chest can drain over 1000 waiting on the delay to finish. Using either of these skills back to back will result in depleted endurance. Many affs target endurance or willpower, and in general these afflictions could be changed, but I would say do NOT have them effect power. When a 4s delay cure slows power regeneration you are talking about opening the door to being drained of power by process of slowing. However, I will try to avoid giving critique without answers so here are some afflictions and their effects along with changes if needed.

Broken Chest (Blunt):
+From: Dealing broken chest causes stun, does not stun when cured into, also causes endurance drain
-To: Stuns on use and movement speed is reduced by 1 room a second.

Crushed Chest (Blunt):
+From: Drains endurance rapidly.
-To: Movement speed BECOMES 1 room per second. Attempting to move faster generates message about chest.

Punctured Lung (Cutting):
+From: Drains endurance quickly
-To: Mild internal bleeding (20-30) on use and every 3 seconds while present, reduces movement speed by 1 room a second.

Scrambled Brains (Tahtetso only, blunt):
+From: Increases willpower loss (4 times normal)
-To: When using equilibium (or a channel) increases eq/channel time lost. (.5s?)
Has symptom message: "The damage you have sustained slows your <equilibrium|channels>."

Severed Phrenic Nerve (Cutting):
+From: Increases endurance drains. Prevents some smoked cures from working, does not take the balance.
-To: Prevents some smoked cures from working and make it consume smoking balance.

Shortened of Breath (Is this what asthma causes?):
+From: Increased endurance drain.
-To: Slower movement speed (-1 rps), causing it to fire twice rapidly stuns.

Trembling (Ninjakari only, blunt):
+From: Increased endurance loss (like 4 times normal)
-To: If using balance while trembling lose a slight amount of additional balance. (.5s?)
Has symptom message: "Your muscles tremble slightly, impeding their recovery."

That is all the affs to my knowledge that deal with wp and endurance. If you find these helpful let me know, I can move onto skills or arties or such.

Daedalion · March 2013

End/Will attrition in combat does not make a good reason to do all the work. If you got drained to 0 endurance before you killed said monk/warrior? Well, chances are you're doin something wrong and you were probably going to die anyway.

Cyndarin · March 2013

Uh....someone has bad info.

Alacardael · March 2013

Yes to removing endurance/willpower, but I don't think it will be enough to help ease newbies in to the complex world of Lusternia.

Everiine · March 2013

Of all the things that make Lusternia complicated for a newbie, End/Will would not even have crossed my mind.

Turnus · March 2013

Endurance/Will getting chopped won't really simplify things for newbies, I doubt draining it is an issue that comes up much for them.

That said I'm all for dropping it, it's a bit annoying to non-newbies. Any mechanic that makes you wait for hours (or however long) to regen back up afterwards is pretty lame.

Also, HI AGAIN FORUMS.

Lorina · March 2013

One of my earliest memories of being a newbie was when I was hunting with blast like a pro, then suddenly... I couldn't fire a shot like an over 60 old man out of prime. After downing way too much mana, I remember pleading every soul for assistance until one of them was like.. "Bro, check your willpower." And that is when my newbie life ended.

So I am gravy for ditching willpower/endurance, but they will be missed. I am more in favor of power or the commodity route. Commodities are an awesome gold sink, thb. It would totally help with our inflation problems.

Turnus · March 2013

Disagree on commodities as a cost for skills. It hurts newbies, but is just a drop in the ocean to oldies.

Malayn · March 2013

Depends if the commodities are for PvP or PvE skills.

Like you could have small craftable items that are used for some things. Dreamweavers use alot of willpower in dreamform, removing that, allow them to make a crystal they have to bond when they enter dream form that keeps their dream and body linked, if crystal depletes they lose the link and die. Those sort of mini items to handle such costs seem workable.

Everiine · March 2013

Of course, this repeats the same problem--the first time a newbie runs out of commodities and die, they'll be all, "wtf just happened?" and you haven't solved a problem. The same thing happens the first time a newbie runs out of a potion, or runs out of health, or loses an influence battle, or drowns to death, or their weapon decays. This is just what happens. This is trying to work a solution for a problem that does not exist. Removing End/Will will remove an inconvenience and an annoyance (at the same time necessitating working over a few skills), but it won't make things easier for Newbies. As it is, with the new changes that went in, Newbies are hand fed the entire early experience. I don't honestly think you can mechanically make it any easier.

Akyaevin · March 2013

It's been a long time since I've had to worry about willpower for bashing, but it seems to be the only concern outside of "we don't like combat attrition" and (more meaningfully) "we don't like the cost of scribing tarot/runes". Bashing and scribing both mainly affect newbies (as a demigod, I have access to lots of WP regen that's either not available to a newbie or they wouldn't know to look out). In these cases, I think it would be simpler to just remove the end/wp cost of bashing skills and lower or otherwise adjust the cost of scribing.

Astrology spheres, dreamform, etc. can all be looked at through the envoy system: if it's equally balanced to have this skill drain mana instead of willpower, then an envoy report should be able to deal with it. If it's not worth the envoy report slot, then that means you have other things of higher priority for the same coders.

Ushaara · March 2013

Well if endurance/willpower end up staying, I think how endurance modifiers stack will need to be looked into. Did some testing with Raeri of how shortbreath and collapsed lungs modifiers stack. Demo log shown.

Log

By themselves, the afflictions have a x60 modifier on up to the first 100 endurance of an action, and a x10 modifier on anything over 100 endurance. Vault which is normally a 25 endurance drain for me, with these two afflictions took 20,000 endurance.

25 -> (25*60)+(0*10) = 1500 -> (100*60)+(1400*10) = 20000.

While Raeri said it's not common and there is wound-based aspect to landing, it is possible for him to deliver both afflictions in the same kata form. I imagine Ninjakari can do the same.

Wobou · March 2013

I don't think it will help newbies by making combat less sophisticated, but it may stop them from feeling punished for playing by willpower drain. The bashing attacks between classes don't feel like they drain equivalent amounts. My warrior alt could bash forever and my bard alt had to wait for willpower, and this was back when kirigami provided a full refresh.

I also agree with Celina (this may be a first) about drain tactics. I think doing this work would improve the combat here. I would much rather die to a good combination of skills than to willpower/endurance drain and I don't think I've met anyone who feels differently.

Endurance and Willpower

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