Reality now is nowhere near as bad as being hit with Reality + Gravity was, but it remains a highly disorienting skill. I think a lot of the 'no worse than scissorkick' argument that's separating posts here comes down to a difference in the level of experience each group brings to the big fights.
For an experienced group (team GG), regrouping is straightforward. For the less experienced, (do we have a name yet?), or more generally, few experienced + bunch of less coordinated people, if the inexperienced guys haven't been picked off immediately, by the time they've gotten their bearings, chances are the group leader has been.
Speaking for myself, I'm happy to see how the delayed cast plays out. If it is castable in a dock room, I would also like to see that changed, as landing on a bubble only to be insta separated is no fun.
Reality has been envoyed before, with an extreme negative opinion about it. Nothing was changed. The gods have said specifically that without the support of an envoy with the skill, report is automatically denied.
I'm not sure who stated that but I do not believe it is true. If an envoy's report is for a guild not his or her own, then that is taken into consideration (not disallowed) and we look closely to see if this isn't an 'envoy war' or some sort of sour grapes maneuver. We then look at input from envoys with the skill. (If they don't have any comments, we take that to mean they may not have any objections.) However, if they do have strong and logical objections, we may look at any alternate suggestions they have in their comments. But even if they object, if there is a universal consensus among other envoys and we feel the report is addressing a needed change, we may make an adjustment.
In any event, there really isn't anything that "automatically denies" a report. There are factors that weight it one way or the other, but ultimately the determination of the admin on any report is the deciding factor (which overrides even a report that all envoys think should be implemented).
If I remember correctly, the 'this didn't have the support of an envoy with the skill -> rejected' reasoning was given over envoys when PSI SHATTER was envoyed by Rivius (Serenguard) with wide support, and subsequently rejected in report #746. A pretty much identical report (#834) was then submitted by Valistrielle (Pyromancers) and it was approved.
I don't think it has come up since then, because after that, the 'they'll reject anything unless it comes from a guild with it' perception has been the pervading one.
1) Timing of an argument does actually matter, and can reflect the validity of an argument. Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Context of an argument, especially a call for a nerf, is always important. Stop acting like no one here is aware of why this thread was created, or why people are suddenly commenting about it beyond the dark and discontent corners of ooc clans and facebook. I think it's really silly that anyone in this thread would act like "I died to such and such, nerf it now," isn't a common event, and one deserving of scrutiny.
I really hope that regardless of what happens here, a lot of you guys should read point 1 over and over until it sticks in your head.
Like it or not, context does play a huge factor in how your arguments are received.
If you don't want your argument to be perceived as whining, maybe you should consider the timing of your forum threads, your posting habits, and your e-reputation as a whole.
I think both of you are exaggerating a minor aspect of a post like this. So just having had a negative experience with an ability means we're all frothing and completely unable to make a rational judgement with regards to said ability, and thus our points are highly dubious or even completely invalid? I think I'll pass on knocking this one into my head, because it's not true. It's even less true in the case of a skill whose mechanics have been largely known for a fairly long time, and they are not so complicated as to not be able to predict the result without even encountering said skill once.
I could make a reverse reminder for people not to act as if they've been personally attacked whenever a skill they're using is being considered unbalanced. Even moreso if they are well aware of that fact themselves.
Obviously, any sound argument on the performance of a skill can always be dismissed as a complaint, because that's what it is: Someone is dissatisfied with the status quo. If you refuse to deal with it in a proper fashion for that sole reason and instead build a wall of snippy remarks at first and highly defensive ones after that, before actually admitting that something is wrong, I personally find that kind of behaviour more questionable than a post made within an hour of a lost battle.
Reality has been envoyed before, with an extreme negative opinion about it. Nothing was changed. The gods have said specifically that without the support of an envoy with the skill, report is automatically denied.
I'm not sure who stated that but I do not believe it is true. If an envoy's report is for a guild not his or her own, then that is taken into consideration (not disallowed) and we look closely to see if this isn't an 'envoy war' or some sort of sour grapes maneuver. We then look at input from envoys with the skill. (If they don't have any comments, we take that to mean they may not have any objections.) However, if they do have strong and logical objections, we may look at any alternate suggestions they have in their comments. But even if they object, if there is a universal consensus among other envoys and we feel the report is addressing a needed change, we may make an adjustment.
In any event, there really isn't anything that "automatically denies" a report. There are factors that weight it one way or the other, but ultimately the determination of the admin on any report is the deciding factor (which overrides even a report that all envoys think should be implemented).
If I remember correctly, the 'this didn't have the support of an envoy with the skill -> rejected' reasoning was given over envoys when PSI SHATTER was envoyed by Rivius (Serenguard) with wide support, and subsequently rejected in report #746. A pretty much identical report (#834) was then submitted by Valistrielle (Pyromancers) and it was approved.
I don't think it has come up since then, because after that, the 'they'll reject anything unless it comes from a guild with it' perception has been the pervading one.
I believe there was also an issue about the phantom spheres report by Wobou that faced a similar rejection reason. I thought there was an envoys post regarding it too. Regardless, even if this isn't the case, this is an example of the disconnect that exists between the envoys and the admin, You have three Hallifax envoys in this thread saying they all thought this was a rule, I know several seren envoys think the same thing because of the above reports.
I know it is an issue that has been brought up multiple times on the envoy channel and admin haven't ever said "this isn't true." Furthermore, reports shouldn't matter where they come from. I have alts in multiple guilds, Why should my reports on those guilds have any less weight because the person that is benefiting from the skill doesn't support it? Shouldn't the judgment be made based on if it needs to be changed or not and only on that?
Regarding the reality argument. I regret starting this conversation as I did. I was using reality as an example of the flaws presented in the envoy system that this obviously overpowered skill hasn't been addressed in years and now you have a large group of envoys thinking they can't address it so it is left to the one person who uses the skill the most to fix it.
I really hope that regardless of what happens here, a lot of you guys should read point 1 over and over until it sticks in your head.
Like it or not, context does play a huge factor in how your arguments are received.
If you don't want your argument to be perceived as whining, maybe you should consider the timing of your forum threads, your posting habits, and your e-reputation as a whole.
As far as ideas for what to do about Reality: I already wrote something up. I appreciate the effort, but I got it already.
On a happier note, I am quite proud of team GG for their pro regrouping skills. Their group combat experience really shines during these domoths. Go you.
We'll remember that when team GG keeps getting gah'shitake'glowwormed and complains about it needing a nerf.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Hmm, well there is this from the 'good report' guidelines in the envoy helps.
10) Any report that appears to facilitate the phenomenon of "Envoy Warring" is generally dismissed outright. This relates to a guild submitting a report against another guild (or group of guilds) with which they are currently engaged in conflict. If you believe there is a problem, you should speak to the Envoy(s) in the target guild(s) and convince them to report the issue themselves. If, after trying to your fullest abilities, they do not comply, you may post here to solicit advice on how to progress.
Though if other envoys are like myself, that got mostly forgotten about after initial reading, until you mentioned there being a post saying similar that sparked vague recollection and made me go look for it.
While it doesn't quite say, 'auto-reject' it does add to the 'Admin will likely side with ... and reject, why bother waste a slot even trying?' perception.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
1) Timing of an argument does actually matter, and can reflect the validity of an argument. Saying otherwise is ridiculous. Context of an argument, especially a call for a nerf, is always important. Stop acting like no one here is aware of why this thread was created, or why people are suddenly commenting about it beyond the dark and discontent corners of ooc clans and facebook. I think it's really silly that anyone in this thread would act like "I died to such and such, nerf it now," isn't a common event, and one deserving of scrutiny.
I really hope that regardless of what happens here, a lot of you guys should read point 1 over and over until it sticks in your head.
Like it or not, context does play a huge factor in how your arguments are received.
If you don't want your argument to be perceived as whining, maybe you should consider the timing of your forum threads, your posting habits, and your e-reputation as a whole.
I think both of you are exaggerating a minor aspect of a post like this. So just having had a negative experience with an ability means we're all frothing and completely unable to make a rational judgement with regards to said ability, and thus our points are highly dubious or even completely invalid? I think I'll pass on knocking this one into my head, because it's not true. It's even less true in the case of a skill whose mechanics have been largely known for a fairly long time, and they are not so complicated as to not be able to predict the result without even encountering said skill once.
I could make a reverse reminder for people not to act as if they've been personally attacked whenever a skill they're using is being considered unbalanced. Even moreso if they are well aware of that fact themselves.
Obviously, any sound argument on the performance of a skill can always be dismissed as a complaint, because that's what it is: Someone is dissatisfied with the status quo. If you refuse to deal with it in a proper fashion for that sole reason and instead build a wall of snippy remarks at first and highly defensive ones after that, before actually admitting that something is wrong, I personally find that kind of behaviour more questionable than a post made within an hour of a lost battle.
I'm glad you're passing, because that's that what anyone said. Nor has anyone even approached that the thread is some sort of personal attack on Shuyin. Nor has anyone "refused" to deal with anything. Didn't Shuyin create a report?
I have to ask you that, Celina. What are you and Shuyin
talking about if not the fact that this thread was posted after a lost
domoth battle that reality was used in?
Dealing with someone's
complaint doesn't equal writing a report. It means, for a start, to
respond to the complaint in the same manner it is brought forward with. If it
is a ragepost without any real arguments, feel free to ignore it, make a l2cure remark or post a lolcat. If it is, from the poster's
perspective, a reasonable complaint (which does not necessarily mean
that a change is justified) with some argumentative backing, then it
deserves a proper reply.
As for the rest, I'm not talking about this thread only. Shuyin's certainly one of the more level-headed people of the game's community, but he does have a certain style in his immediate responses to what he considers whines, and it is not always appropriate, I think.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I listed 5 points. Read them before you ask me what I'm talking about or implying the only discussion going on is morbo's level of angst during the original post. Honestly, Vey. No one said the complaint was null and void due to the timing. That's not what the word "context" means.
All I can say to the envoy end of it is that my Shatter report getting rejected and then accepted two months later with the exact same report (only difference being who envoyed it) has made me much more cautious in approaching skills held by other guilds. It's not a ban, but it is a much larger threshold to cross and if it fails, well, you're out a slot and some other envoy has to use theirs anyways. Thus, it is better to convince them to do it themselves the first time (which is the intent, I suppose).
I will drag this conversation slightly away from the present discussion to address a point made somewhere along the way about pyromesne and obscuring the map. Let's remember two things...
One, that demesne effects (in this case, except for mirage) work only in the immediate rooms surrounding the melder, so your map wouldn't have been obscured anywhere except for when standing one room away from Viynain. True, mirage covers the entire meld, turning it into a desert, but here's another thing to consider in that regard... the fight took place on Dramube. Turning rooms into desert wouldn't have helped much in that regard as almost all Dramube rooms look the same anyway. Additionally, things were probably not made better by the fact that Dramube rooms have effects similar to elemental planes or the inner sea/sea of despair where you get tossed around as you move anyway.
Two, your regroup location seemed to be in a corner of Dramube. Obscuring the map really doesn't mean much in that regard. You are regrouping in the northeastern corner of a square... are there still exits to the north or east? Well then, you are not there yet!
Fun fact, I was separated from our group for practically the entire duration of the Domoth as I was solo-claiming while everyone else was fighting. The fact still remains that not only did I know where my group was at any one point in the fight, but I also knew where your group was during the entire thing. The easiest way the fight would have been resolved was to rush and kill me in the orb room, rather than sitting next to your enemy group and sending Kelly in to try and tackle me into a spring trap that would throw me in the middle of your group. Take out the person claiming the domoth, fortify the domoth location and let your enemies come to you as opposed to trying to tackle a group in an environment like that.
TL;DR - What I'm trying to say is, the issue wasn't just reality or the combination of reality and a pyro meld to disorient. The fact still remains that you guys could've done some regrouping of your own. Also, should I start teaching basic magical movement prevention tactics now?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Personally I would find it very entertaining to know your thoughts on preventing basic magical movement and how it relates to the fact that reality bypasses virtually all of them.
Fun fact, relying on anecdotal evidence is an outstanding way to get people to dismiss your argument.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Celina, either you agree with the issues regarding reality or you don't. Shield is not an answer. No one is going to stay shielded while Shuyin runs in and out of a room hammering his reality button. We can't even beckon/lust him back in when he escapes or starleapers out due to distort.
The timing of this particular thread does -not- matter because it came up before Morbo ever found his way to forums. It came up well over a year ago. Since I returned, I have brought it up in ooc talks IN GAME and after we WON a domoth battle. Should I have gone to these forums after a win so that Shuyin feels better about doing his job? Shuyin tries to appear magnanimous while spewing nonsense about whining as if the points here have no merit. We should honestly expect more from an envoy.
Personally I would find it very entertaining to know your thoughts on preventing basic magical movement and how it relates to the fact that reality bypasses virtually all of them.
Fun fact, relying on anecdotal evidence is an outstanding way to get people to dismiss your argument.
I could of course be wrong here, but... wasn't there a sigil that did that? What was it called again? Mono-something. Of course if it bypasses that as well, then we do have something that perhaps needs looking into, hmmm?
Also, I was never trying to say that reality does -not- need changing, but was trying to say that perhaps the issue wasn't reality alone, but hey, feel free to make some other snide remark.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
You can only shield past the initial hit of Reality, not the chance of move on entrance. Also, I'm pretty sure you are mistaken about Land being used in a Domoth battle; I don't believe that it can be used on any of the domoth realms, nor any elemental or cosmic plane, nor any village (again, pretty sure).
As to accusations of whining: is Reality, or any other skill, only allowed to be reported if it hasn't been used in recent memory? By the time a sizable portion of the playerbase is calling for a nerf of a particular skill, it's generally being used often enough that opponents to the change can brand any mention of it as reactionary. In any case, an argument being timely, or as you call it, reactionary, is not a counterargument, any more that claiming that a buff is made in self interest is one; the motive behind the report is unimportant compared to the content and effects of the report itself.
As to the solution, I feel that making Reality respect distort, and making it uncastable in Smob rooms, would be a fair nerf that brings it in line with other forced movement. If this is implemented, and the skill remains a problem, there is always rooms to edit it later; no need to make sweeping changes.
Edit: Elanorwen, Reality doesn't respect Monolith, and honestly, you shouldn't be snide when you are unsure of your information.
Perhaps I'm asking too much, but could someone compile a list of group moving abilities? I'd like to compare them to reality 1:1. That should give us a good idea of what could be tweaked to bring reality in line. No commentary, just a list of the skills, what they do exactly, and what stops them.
I've been out of the game too long to know off the top of my head.
Celinaquote: Timing of an argument does actually matter Shuyinquote: If you don't want your argument to be perceived as whining, maybe you should consider the timing of your forum threads
New Celinaquote: No one said the complaint was null and void due to the timing.
Not void and null, no. But obviously it is relevant to you somehow. And I'm saying it shouldn't if the argument presented is sound. That's all.
@Urfion - there is something to be said about assumption and what it is the mother of. That being me assuming that an object that prevents magical movement is respected by an ability that induces magical movement. I consider myself properly chastised. Still, it brought something else up... that reality does not respect monolith. If it hadn't been considered in the report for reality, perhaps it can be brought up as well.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Why would I need to feel better about doing my job? While being an envoy is pretty thankless, I know it's not going to be highfives all around every month.
Last I checked, I'm one of the few envoys who actually do put up nerf reports to my own skills. You're more than free to peruse my past reports. Off the top of my head, I've nerfed hekoskeri, ranged homunculus, and badluck so far during my stint as an envoy and I've repeatedly said I already made a report addressing Reality.
I'd even go so far as to say that I've done the most nerfs to my own class compared to other envoys who have similar issues.
Why would I need to be magnanimous? I don't wanna be voted Prom King. Fact of the matter is, my actual actions as an envoy have no bearing to my posting style. If you've ever seen my other posts on these forums, I usually tend to not take things too seriously because hey, this is a game forum.
If you guys are going to make a 4 page thread about a skill that as of this moment, only I use, of course I'm going to read and respond in a tone that you guys started off with. Even then, I still couldn't completely resist and I actually did post (what I feel to be) reasonable counterarguments in between the snark. What else do you want? For me to address every single time someone's complained with, "I see. It's been noted and immediately being envoyed. Thank you for filing this complaint and have a nice day!". That's just ridiculous. All Celina's said is that complaint threads are scrutinized partly on the basis of when/who they're made by. Like it or not, that's just how it works.
Actually, you don't really have to believe me, but I didn't dismiss sound arguments or reasonable suggestions. I even used one of them. Even in threads that run high on emotions, I acknowledge that there really are well-reasoned arguments presented.
If I dismissed anything, it's Malicia's not-unsubtle personal attacks, Shaddus' unrelated comments about aeon aura and gaktihradhaidhaodh'sho, and the comments about the envoy system (which should totally go in that other thread). I think those are okay though.
Edit: Let me try some patience: I hate being redundant but if you agree that something needs nerfing, save everyone your noise about whining and address the merits of the problem. I'm glad you put up a report but you seem way too focused on the 'timing' of this particular discussion pretending that it hasn't come up before.
@Estarra You say that it's not an automatic rejection, but that is definitely not the atmosphere I have experienced. There are indeed things that will get your report rejected out of hand. I have seen it happen.
Putting increased scrutiny on a report that comes from a different guild makes no sense. It's either a balance concern or it's not, and it's the envoys job to bring those to your attention. If it's brought up by someone who's frustrated by having to face it all the time, does that make it any less of a concern? If it is a case of them simply crying nerf at something they don't like, then it will be apparent through the comments and envoy discussion, just like with any other report, no matter the source. If they engage in diversionary tactics to move discussion away from valid points, or make inflammatory statements to make it seem like others are being unreasonable, then they are a bad envoy and should be removed.
Not quite sure what you mean by "atmosphere" but I will reiterate that nothing "automatically rejects" a report. I'm not sure what your examples are that 'proves' a report is automatically rejected but from my perspective, there's always discussion and weighing of a report and all points are considered. You can believe me or not, but that's my understanding.
Of course, if there is a balance issue, then there is a balance issue. My point was when a report comes from an opposing guild, there has been enough cases where we have received blowback that we are being manipulated, that envoys are warring with each other, of bias, etc., etc., that, yes, we will take that into consideration when a report comes from an opposing guild and give those who use the skill some deference on their comments.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Celina, either you agree with the issues regarding reality or you don't. Shield is not an answer. No one is going to stay shielded while Shuyin runs in and out of a room hammering his reality button. We can't even beckon/lust him back in when he escapes or starleapers out due to distort.
The timing of this particular thread does -not- matter because it came up before Morbo ever found his way to forums. It came up well over a year ago. Since I returned, I have brought it up in ooc talks IN GAME and after we WON a domoth battle. Should I have gone to these forums after a win so that Shuyin feels better about doing his job? Shuyin tries to appear magnanimous while spewing nonsense about whining as if the points here have no merit. We should honestly expect more from an envoy.
Uh, no? I believe there is some merit to the complaints about distort not affecting it, but I also think there are equal parts whine and merit in the criticisms towards reality. We also disagree about shielding, so it's not really "my way or the highway/you're for us or against" argument you apparently want it to be. Shield is a counter to someone running in and out of a room "hammering" a group splitting button. It has been the go to counter for scissor and squall, it's literally the exact same scenario, only in this case you aren't hurtled directly into the loving arms of the waiting enemy. If you want to say it's not, then it's not for scissor or beckon or rad or anything else.
This is the problem I have. If there are legitimate complaints about reality, and I think there might be, they are lost in a sea of distorted opinion and jabs at Shuyin. Does anyone here think we don't notice the painfully obvious effort that is being put into your "side" not acknowledging or mentioning that it affects allies too? It's kind of a huge part of the skill. It'd just be nice if we could all be on the same plane of factual reality when debating a skill. It's not god mode astral scissorkick.
And just point of fact: Shuyin is a great envoy, I don't know why you feel your jabs and personal attacks are warranted (especially after Veyrzhul insisted none of this was a personal attack on Shuyin, whoopsies), but he does a good job. To imply otherwise with that kind of comment is rude, baseless, and warrants an apology. It's a thankless job. Mk.
You can only shield past the initial hit of Reality, not the chance of move on entrance. Also, I'm pretty sure you are mistaken about Land being used in a Domoth battle; I don't believe that it can be used on any of the domoth realms, nor any elemental or cosmic plane, nor any village (again, pretty sure).
As to accusations of whining: is Reality, or any other skill, only allowed to be reported if it hasn't been used in recent memory? By the time a sizable portion of the playerbase is calling for a nerf of a particular skill, it's generally being used often enough that opponents to the change can brand any mention of it as reactionary. In any case, an argument being timely, or as you call it, reactionary, is not a counterargument, any more that claiming that a buff is made in self interest is one; the motive behind the report is unimportant compared to the content and effects of the report itself.
As to the solution, I feel that making Reality respect distort, and making it uncastable in Smob rooms, would be a fair nerf that brings it in line with other forced movement. If this is implemented, and the skill remains a problem, there is always rooms to edit it later; no need to make sweeping changes.
Edit: Elanorwen, Reality doesn't respect Monolith, and honestly, you shouldn't be snide when you are unsure of your information.
I'm about 95% certain it has been used in domoth fights. I could be wrong, but I remember our group having trouble because we were isnta-landed when we bubblixed in. Enyalida may be able to clarify.
Shield does not stop the room effect. The room effect hits allies, however, so it's rather moot when considering the entire skill.
As for the whining thing: I specifically said "deserving of scrutiny." Not null and void, not dissmissable, not a counter argument. Why it keeps being spun as these things, I don't know, but that was never said. You argue on the content of point, the validity of that point can be reflective of the person's motivation. They are not mutually exclusive. You can actually glean a lot about the validity of a complaint, nerf, or buff from the person and the person's reason.
The focus on Morbo's initial post and that it keeps being mentioned is quite boggling. Morbo may have posted it heatedly but reality has been an issue for some time and has been mentioned BEFORE this post, so smugly going on and on about the tone of the discussion and how much better your team is at handling reality or any group separation ability is not helpful, is insulting to the people who have real concerns about the ability and that deserves an apology.
Shield is only viable if your team intends to stay shielded (why on earth would they just sit still, shielded is beyond me) while an illuminati enters and exits the room repeatedly hoping to cast reality. It is not possible to be shielded while trying to move your group from room to room. No one stays shielded the entire time during combat.
....I actually did address the merits of the problem, how many times do I have to say that.
If you guys are going to insist that the content of a post is what's most important, then I'm going to have to insist that the tone is of equal importance. IMO, it doesn't matter if you have the best ideas in the world when you can't get people to listen to you because you're a huge douche.
Then again, I'm not the one tl;dr-ing posts, so maybe it's a a bit pointless to try to get this point across.
Also apparently shamanism land works in melds since you can directly affect the weather, so there is a choice of using it on certain bubbles. I think the problem is that no one really wants to go Shamanism.
RE: Land. The only place on a bubble it might be even possible to use land is Crum, but I don't remember what terrain types it has. I don't have my original notes but from memory: Land works in natural forest and derivative terrains (woods, wyrd), valley, and plains terrains. It does not work inside, or on any watery, rocky, sandy, or civilized terrain. This includes swamps/marshes! That rules out the majority of bubbles (except the possibility of a few rooms on Crumkindivia), all domoth realms, all non-Ethereal or Prime planes, and all but the farm areas of villages.
Give me a few minutes and I can confirm, if I can find my old post on the subject.
EDIT: Talking with Shuyin, I think the following changes would bring reality into parity with Land (as Land should be, without the excessive restrictions. True parity with Land would practically delete Reality):
-Change it to not be compatible with distort.
-Suggested by Shuyin: Change it to do a ticking effect periodically while the skill remains in effect, reprising the original attack (instead of the on-enter effect it has now).
-Limit the movement down from 'entire area', to a 6 room radius, as Land (non-present) works.
Delete land and reality! They are both so unnecessary.
Well, while we're at it, let's delete inquisition and trueheal as well and make toad an actual insta to where they die without needing to be stomped. :P
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I'd be alright with an alternate effect for Land if one was proposed. It would go very far down on my list of things to do, but I'm not particularly attached to the effect as is, without the heavy restrictions being lifted. It's reality lite, without the extra punishment for regrouping, with a higher opportunity cost of use and a tiny range of use, for the same power cost.
EDIT: Perhaps some pit-esque ability (still terrain limited, but less so than current Land). Something to think about, I guess.
Comments
Reality now is nowhere near as bad as being hit with Reality + Gravity was, but it remains a highly disorienting skill. I think a lot of the 'no worse than scissorkick' argument that's separating posts here comes down to a difference in the level of experience each group brings to the big fights.
For an experienced group (team GG), regrouping is straightforward. For the less experienced, (do we have a name yet?), or more generally, few experienced + bunch of less coordinated people, if the inexperienced guys haven't been picked off immediately, by the time they've gotten their bearings, chances are the group leader has been.
Speaking for myself, I'm happy to see how the delayed cast plays out. If it is castable in a dock room, I would also like to see that changed, as landing on a bubble only to be insta separated is no fun.
I don't think it has come up since then, because after that, the 'they'll reject anything unless it comes from a guild with it' perception has been the pervading one.
I think both of you are exaggerating a minor aspect of a post like this. So just having had a negative experience with an ability means we're all frothing and completely unable to make a rational judgement with regards to said ability, and thus our points are highly dubious or even completely invalid? I think I'll pass on knocking this one into my head, because it's not true. It's even less true in the case of a skill whose mechanics have been largely known for a fairly long time, and they are not so complicated as to not be able to predict the result without even encountering said skill once.
I could make a reverse reminder for people not to act as if they've been personally attacked whenever a skill they're using is being considered unbalanced. Even moreso if they are well aware of that fact themselves.
Obviously, any sound argument on the performance of a skill can always be dismissed as a complaint, because that's what it is: Someone is dissatisfied with the status quo. If you refuse to deal with it in a proper fashion for that sole reason and instead build a wall of snippy remarks at first and highly defensive ones after that, before actually admitting that something is wrong, I personally find that kind of behaviour more questionable than a post made within an hour of a lost battle.
I know it is an issue that has been brought up multiple times on the envoy channel and admin haven't ever said "this isn't true." Furthermore, reports shouldn't matter where they come from. I have alts in multiple guilds, Why should my reports on those guilds have any less weight because the person that is benefiting from the skill doesn't support it? Shouldn't the judgment be made based on if it needs to be changed or not and only on that?
Regarding the reality argument. I regret starting this conversation as I did. I was using reality as an example of the flaws presented in the envoy system that this obviously overpowered skill hasn't been addressed in years and now you have a large group of envoys thinking they can't address it so it is left to the one person who uses the skill the most to fix it.
10) Any report that appears to facilitate the phenomenon of "Envoy
Warring" is generally dismissed outright. This relates to a guild
submitting a report against another guild (or group of guilds) with
which they are currently engaged in conflict. If you believe there is a
problem, you should speak to the Envoy(s) in the target guild(s) and
convince them to report the issue themselves. If, after trying to your
fullest abilities, they do not comply, you may post here to solicit
advice on how to progress.
Though if other envoys are like myself, that got mostly forgotten about after initial reading, until you mentioned there being a post saying similar that sparked vague recollection and made me go look for it.
While it doesn't quite say, 'auto-reject' it does add to the 'Admin will likely side with ... and reject, why bother waste a slot even trying?' perception.
I have to ask you that, Celina. What are you and Shuyin talking about if not the fact that this thread was posted after a lost domoth battle that reality was used in?
Dealing with someone's complaint doesn't equal writing a report. It means, for a start, to respond to the complaint in the same manner it is brought forward with. If it is a ragepost without any real arguments, feel free to ignore it, make a l2cure remark or post a lolcat.
If it is, from the poster's perspective, a reasonable complaint (which does not necessarily mean that a change is justified) with some argumentative backing, then it deserves a proper reply.
As for the rest, I'm not talking about this thread only. Shuyin's certainly one of the more level-headed people of the game's community, but he does have a certain style in his immediate responses to what he considers whines, and it is not always appropriate, I think.
One, that demesne effects (in this case, except for mirage) work only in the immediate rooms surrounding the melder, so your map wouldn't have been obscured anywhere except for when standing one room away from Viynain. True, mirage covers the entire meld, turning it into a desert, but here's another thing to consider in that regard... the fight took place on Dramube. Turning rooms into desert wouldn't have helped much in that regard as almost all Dramube rooms look the same anyway. Additionally, things were probably not made better by the fact that Dramube rooms have effects similar to elemental planes or the inner sea/sea of despair where you get tossed around as you move anyway.
Two, your regroup location seemed to be in a corner of Dramube. Obscuring the map really doesn't mean much in that regard. You are regrouping in the northeastern corner of a square... are there still exits to the north or east? Well then, you are not there yet!
Fun fact, I was separated from our group for practically the entire duration of the Domoth as I was solo-claiming while everyone else was fighting. The fact still remains that not only did I know where my group was at any one point in the fight, but I also knew where your group was during the entire thing. The easiest way the fight would have been resolved was to rush and kill me in the orb room, rather than sitting next to your enemy group and sending Kelly in to try and tackle me into a spring trap that would throw me in the middle of your group. Take out the person claiming the domoth, fortify the domoth location and let your enemies come to you as opposed to trying to tackle a group in an environment like that.
TL;DR - What I'm trying to say is, the issue wasn't just reality or the combination of reality and a pyro meld to disorient. The fact still remains that you guys could've done some regrouping of your own. Also, should I start teaching basic magical movement prevention tactics now?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
The timing of this particular thread does -not- matter because it came up before Morbo ever found his way to forums. It came up well over a year ago. Since I returned, I have brought it up in ooc talks IN GAME and after we WON a domoth battle. Should I have gone to these forums after a win so that Shuyin feels better about doing his job? Shuyin tries to appear magnanimous while spewing nonsense about whining as if the points here have no merit. We should honestly expect more from an envoy.
Also, I was never trying to say that reality does -not- need changing, but was trying to say that perhaps the issue wasn't reality alone, but hey, feel free to make some other snide remark.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
As to accusations of whining: is Reality, or any other skill, only allowed to be reported if it hasn't been used in recent memory? By the time a sizable portion of the playerbase is calling for a nerf of a particular skill, it's generally being used often enough that opponents to the change can brand any mention of it as reactionary. In any case, an argument being timely, or as you call it, reactionary, is not a counterargument, any more that claiming that a buff is made in self interest is one; the motive behind the report is unimportant compared to the content and effects of the report itself.
As to the solution, I feel that making Reality respect distort, and making it uncastable in Smob rooms, would be a fair nerf that brings it in line with other forced movement. If this is implemented, and the skill remains a problem, there is always rooms to edit it later; no need to make sweeping changes.
Edit: Elanorwen, Reality doesn't respect Monolith, and honestly, you shouldn't be snide when you are unsure of your information.
Shuyinquote: If you don't want your argument to be perceived as whining, maybe you should consider the timing of your forum threads
New Celinaquote: No one said the complaint was null and void due to the timing.
Not void and null, no. But obviously it is relevant to you somehow. And I'm saying it shouldn't if the argument presented is sound. That's all.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Edit: Let me try some patience: I hate being redundant but if you agree that something needs nerfing, save everyone your noise about whining and address the merits of the problem. I'm glad you put up a report but you seem way too focused on the 'timing' of this particular discussion pretending that it hasn't come up before.
Of course, if there is a balance issue, then there is a balance issue. My point was when a report comes from an opposing guild, there has been enough cases where we have received blowback that we are being manipulated, that envoys are warring with each other, of bias, etc., etc., that, yes, we will take that into consideration when a report comes from an opposing guild and give those who use the skill some deference on their comments.
Uh, no? I believe there is some merit to the complaints about distort not affecting it, but I also think there are equal parts whine and merit in the criticisms towards reality. We also disagree about shielding, so it's not really "my way or the highway/you're for us or against" argument you apparently want it to be. Shield is a counter to someone running in and out of a room "hammering" a group splitting button. It has been the go to counter for scissor and squall, it's literally the exact same scenario, only in this case you aren't hurtled directly into the loving arms of the waiting enemy. If you want to say it's not, then it's not for scissor or beckon or rad or anything else.
This is the problem I have. If there are legitimate complaints about reality, and I think there might be, they are lost in a sea of distorted opinion and jabs at Shuyin. Does anyone here think we don't notice the painfully obvious effort that is being put into your "side" not acknowledging or mentioning that it affects allies too? It's kind of a huge part of the skill. It'd just be nice if we could all be on the same plane of factual reality when debating a skill. It's not god mode astral scissorkick.
And just point of fact: Shuyin is a great envoy, I don't know why you feel your jabs and personal attacks are warranted (especially after Veyrzhul insisted none of this was a personal attack on Shuyin, whoopsies), but he does a good job. To imply otherwise with that kind of comment is rude, baseless, and warrants an apology. It's a thankless job. Mk.
Celina said:
I'm about 95% certain it has been used in domoth fights. I could be wrong, but I remember our group having trouble because we were isnta-landed when we bubblixed in. Enyalida may be able to clarify.
Shield does not stop the room effect. The room effect hits allies, however, so it's rather moot when considering the entire skill.
As for the whining thing: I specifically said "deserving of scrutiny." Not null and void, not dissmissable, not a counter argument. Why it keeps being spun as these things, I don't know, but that was never said. You argue on the content of point, the validity of that point can be reflective of the person's motivation. They are not mutually exclusive. You can actually glean a lot about the validity of a complaint, nerf, or buff from the person and the person's reason.
Shield is only viable if your team intends to stay shielded (why on earth would they just sit still, shielded is beyond me) while an illuminati enters and exits the room repeatedly hoping to cast reality. It is not possible to be shielded while trying to move your group from room to room. No one stays shielded the entire time during combat.
Well, while we're at it, let's delete inquisition and trueheal as well and make toad an actual insta to where they die without needing to be stomped. :P
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.