Can you post a log of that here or send it to me privately.
There's a special report going on and maybe we can get that looked at if it's true.
I closed Mudlet shortly after, so unless it saves things automatically, then no. Alary may have the lines for which skill it was though, she was in there, but that doesn't help with my case.
Vacuum (and relevant -chemancy skills) are delayed cast major damage skills, which you can start, then run into a room, raze/hinder etc and have big damage hit the entire group.
Reality (the way it's used and is complained about) is Shuyin, by himself, running in, and using it once to spread people all over an area.
I'm not sure what you're trying to sit here and say Ciaran, two different skills are able to use shield as defense differently. Once a vacuum gets going, it's easy enough to time to raze/nullify etc, where if Shuyin jumps into a room to reality, you can stay shielded for a second, and then hinder/prevent him from realitying. Do you disagree with this or are you saying it's incredibly feasible to shield while in the middle of group combat?
You seem to get the impression that I'm defending the way catalysts work.
I think that they can do too much damage. However, the admins aren't going to change the underlying mechanics, I believe they knew what they were doing to group combat, so we'll have to adapt to a new twist.
Chem bombs are going to be a thing, and we're all going to have them (eventually).
Right now, I think the issue is thinktank making the bombs do way too much damage. It's also entirely possible that the base damage is too high. I just want to be careful here because I'd like to be able to see 1v1 chemantics work without butchering groups.
What makes me sick is how quickly both sides will flip the switch to use the same justifications they were arguing against the day before, depending on who has the skill in question.
Forgive me if I'm wrong, but didn't Wildewood and Aquachem spores and mists already get a substantial damage nerf? I'm pretty sure I read that in the changelog. Is it too much to ask that Aerochem take a similar nerf?
As for the Reality thread, Shuyin was one of the limited number of people being reasonable in that thread (on both sides). He agreed that some uses of Reality were problematic, and needed nerfs. I wish the Hallifax envoys would do us the same courtesy.
except it can be resisted, you can hinder/kill the reality guy before he can do it, stay shielded when he jumped in unless you are throwing a web or a stun. Several things you can do to 'counter' reality, just as you can 'counter' fearaura with walls, being off bal etc.
catalysts are also stopped by shields, and I'm pretty sure vacuum is no exception. It also drops 2-4 "demense effects".
not really sure what more you are trying to prove, ok, it's stopped by shields. great. How feasible is it to shield during combat and how hard is it for a -chemancer to wait to nullify a shield right before it hits? or someone raze, or someone generally hinder preventing a shield to begin with? It's a big difference when you are getting hit by a ranged attack where they literally can't strip your shield and being hit (along with all your allies) in a room with your enemy actively hindering you.
Fascinating.
Also, I'm not our envoy. I believe I sent a message to Tulemrah suggesting that Thinktank be looked at, but I haven't gotten to test the numbers specifically, so I may not have.
Vacuum (and relevant -chemancy skills) are delayed cast major damage skills, which you can start, then run into a room, raze/hinder etc and have big damage hit the entire group.
At the rate the release of each subsequent skill is being delayed, I won't be surprised to see Pyrochem by July.
The reasoning of why is not hard to guess at, but doesn't change the pace of release though. On the plus side, maybe things will get hashed out enough to ensure a simple (or boring) chemantic release by the time our sixth and last skillset comes out.
Also, the argument for the chemantics bombs have already been run roughshod, roughly 3 months BEFORE from this Rikenfriez revolt. Feel free to look back at the Aqua/Wildewood threads. Pretty much nothing justifies that kind of damage. To be more accurate, the TONED DOWN damage of the current Aquachem/Wildewood JUSTIFIES the additional messages that were put in from the wildewood report. Not the other way around, and not to justify something that does even more.
Secondly, Aerochem damage has already been flagged for being TOO HIGH as compared to the Aquachem/Wildewood skills. This is a tested fact. We're still waiting for the admin to do something, who are probably waiting for the playerbase to test this in action. Which... guess what, just has been done in the revolt. Morbo's got one thing right about the envoy system, though. I wasn't very sure when he was saying there are biased envoys who really twist everything to try and suit their agenda with no regard for inter-class balance, because that's a vague and general statement, but he certainly fits the bill himself.
Also, the argument for the chemantics bombs have already been run roughshod, roughly 3 months BEFORE from this Rikenfriez revolt. Feel free to look back at the Aqua/Wildewood threads. Pretty much nothing justifies that kind of damage. To be more accurate, the TONED DOWN damage of the current Aquachem/Wildewood JUSTIFIES the additional messages that were put in from the wildewood report. Not the other way around, and not to justify something that does even more.
Secondly, Aerochem damage has already been flagged for being TOO HIGH as compared to the Aquachem/Wildewood skills. This is a tested fact. We're still waiting for the admin to do something, who are probably waiting for the playerbase to test this in action. Which... guess what, just has been done in the revolt. Morbo's got one thing right about the envoy system, though. I wasn't very sure when he was saying there are biased envoys who really twist everything to try and suit their agenda with no regard for inter-class balance, because that's a vague and general statement, but he certainly fits the bill himself.
Vacuum (and relevant -chemancy skills) are delayed cast major damage skills, which you can start, then run into a room, raze/hinder etc and have big damage hit the entire group.
Reality (the way it's used and is complained about) is Shuyin, by himself, running in, and using it once to spread people all over an area.
I'm not sure what you're trying to sit here and say Ciaran, two different skills are able to use shield as defense differently. Once a vacuum gets going, it's easy enough to time to raze/nullify etc, where if Shuyin jumps into a room to reality, you can stay shielded for a second, and then hinder/prevent him from realitying. Do you disagree with this or are you saying it's incredibly feasible to shield while in the middle of group combat?
You seem to get the impression that I'm defending the way catalysts work.
I think that they can do too much damage. However, the admins aren't going to change the underlying mechanics, I believe they knew what they were doing to group combat, so we'll have to adapt to a new twist.
Chem bombs are going to be a thing, and we're all going to have them (eventually).
Right now, I think the issue is thinktank making the bombs do way too much damage. It's also entirely possible that the base damage is too high. I just want to be careful here because I'd like to be able to see 1v1 chemantics work without butchering groups.
What makes me sick is how quickly both sides will flip the switch to use the same justifications they were arguing against the day before, depending on who has the skill in question.
edited out too many quotes
I'm just saying you are throwing quotes around that aren't really applicable and I just showed you how they weren't. Different skills have different defenses in different situations.
I never actually made any comment about the damage other than what people (yourself included) have said. This is because I haven't been hit by it to any great degree (I'm pretty sure Tulemrah got one off on me, but I didn't really notice it terribly).
Thus, trying to sit here and accuse myself and others of bias and double standards by using quotes out of context to justify yourself just makes you look silly and distracts from the actual argument.
I will say this, You guys defended the envoy system in my previous thread regarding it.
There is currently a special report for Aerochemantics and any envoy can create a special report by using REPORT CREATE SPECIAL.
I do not want to enflame this conversation further but there is an avenue for change at your finger tips.
Also regarding "all the reports being buffs" The changes to positronic, forcewall, and static are all intentional nerfs. Short breath was causing attrition situations with classes where any astrologer or warrior/monk was running out of endurance, forcewall adds a power cost to a wall that is similar to stonewall in what can bypass it, and static reduces the extremely powerful start of the static which can change the field of battle in an instant.
Nothing like someone who instantly accuses people of bias and being stupid because they simply disagree with them to sit here and call out doublestandard.
Why isn't there a report for thinktank in the special report? It seems like this was a known issue, yet nothing is being done to address it, and all the reports seem to be nothing but buffs.
edit: Neither Shuyin or myself were at this revolt (it ended right as I logged on and deffed up) so I don't really feel we're upset and raging. I mean I haven't said once that it was OP and too much, just that you can't really compare it to nightgaze. My comment in this thread is in response to Ciaran saying it is too much. So yeah, context. cool
I was accusing Hallifaxians, and those who were complaining, but you assume that I'm accusing you here.
Just because it's easy to point out how your opinions on the use of shielding change significantly based on who is being attacked, doesn't mean I came here to illustrate your inconsistency.
I will say this, You guys defended the envoy system in my previous thread regarding it.
There is currently a special report for Aerochemantics and any envoy can create a special report by using REPORT CREATE SPECIAL.
I do not want to enflame this conversation further but there is an avenue for change at your finger tips.
Also regarding "all the reports being buffs" The changes to positronic, forcewall, and static are all intentional nerfs. Short breath was causing attrition situations with classes where any astrologer or warrior/monk was running out of endurance, forcewall adds a power cost to a wall that is similar to stonewall in what can bypass it, and static reduces the extremely powerful start of the static which can change the field of battle in an instant.
Trust us, we know that we can create reports; I've already forwarded some logs of the damage potential when a person has none of the affs at all to someone who wasn't actually hit by it (and can just look at it from the log standpoint), and put it up from there.
I will say this, You guys defended the envoy system in my previous thread regarding it.
There is currently a special report for Aerochemantics and any envoy can create a special report by using REPORT CREATE SPECIAL.
I do not want to enflame this conversation further but there is an avenue for change at your finger tips.
Also regarding "all the reports being buffs" The changes to positronic, forcewall, and static are all intentional nerfs. Short breath was causing attrition situations with classes where any astrologer or warrior/monk was running out of endurance, forcewall adds a power cost to a wall that is similar to stonewall in what can bypass it, and static reduces the extremely powerful start of the static which can change the field of battle in an instant.
Trust us, we know that we can create reports; I've already forwarded some logs of the damage potential when a person has none of the affs at all to someone who wasn't actually hit by it (and can just look at it from the log standpoint), and put it up from there.
I will say this, You guys defended the envoy system in my previous thread regarding it.
There is currently a special report for Aerochemantics and any envoy can create a special report by using REPORT CREATE SPECIAL.
I do not want to enflame this conversation further but there is an avenue for change at your finger tips.
Also regarding "all the reports being buffs" The changes to positronic, forcewall, and static are all intentional nerfs. Short breath was causing attrition situations with classes where any astrologer or warrior/monk was running out of endurance, forcewall adds a power cost to a wall that is similar to stonewall in what can bypass it, and static reduces the extremely powerful start of the static which can change the field of battle in an instant.
I don't know,
static being made to have a lower proc rate at the beginning but a higher one at the end AND be made so it can be used more often seems like a nice buff to me
a powercost to forcewall so you can do other actions while maintaining it (though it looks like the report was changed to say it'll drop on healing actions or bal/eq use, this is a new addition to the report and a strange one) but doesn't actually allow more stuff to passes the wall (tumble,leap don't seem to go through it, unless that was changed recently, and they will let you by stonewalls)
and attempting to change positronic from shortbreath (which doesn't really help other than attrition warfare stuff) to dizziness( aff for vacuum) vapors (blackout, always nice esp with phantomarmour) or crushedwindpipe (letting psionic mages cause slickness and brokenlimbs all in a trigger for a greenlock) are pretty powerful additions, even reducing asphyx dmp is more useful to you than shortbreath in my opinion.
Trust us, we know that we can create reports; I've already forwarded some logs of the damage potential when a person has none of the affs at all to someone who wasn't actually hit by it (and can just look at it from the log standpoint), and put it up from there.
In hopes of increasing the overall understanding of the skills:
The affs only boost the damage of Vacuum. I suspect (though I was gone for the majority of the revolt) that Morbo was using Quantum. This does a high base level of damage regardless of what you're afflicted with.
His main boosts were likely:
Thinktank with melder (large dmg boost, of which I have anectdotal knowledge)
malt + dmg dmp
curio + dmg dmp
war + dmg dmp
magic dmg rune + 20%
possibly interference - resists dmp
thinktank + range
all sorts of int boosts
I'm thinking we'll need to look at thinktank both boosting range and damage as a target for nerfs.
Trust us, we know that we can create reports; I've already forwarded some logs of the damage potential when a person has none of the affs at all to someone who wasn't actually hit by it (and can just look at it from the log standpoint), and put it up from there.
In hopes of increasing the overall understanding of the skills:
The affs only boost the damage of Vacuum. I suspect (though I was gone for the majority of the revolt) that Morbo was using Quantum. This does a high base level of damage regardless of what you're afflicted with.
His main boosts were likely:
Thinktank with melder (large dmg boost, of which I have anectdotal knowledge)
malt + dmg dmp
curio + dmg dmp
war + dmg dmp
magic dmg rune + 20%
possibly interference - resists dmp
thinktank + range
all sorts of int boosts
I'm thinking we'll need to look at thinktank both boosting range and damage as a target for nerfs.
While I'm overall staying out of the "argument", if Morshoth had just died and was undeffed, then he would have had no elec/asphyx dmp(unless he had tattoos) but either way, interference wouldn't have boosted the damage up by much.
Nothing like someone who instantly accuses people of bias and being stupid because they simply disagree with them to sit here and call out doublestandard.
Why isn't there a report for thinktank in the special report? It seems like this was a known issue, yet nothing is being done to address it, and all the reports seem to be nothing but buffs.
edit: Neither Shuyin or myself were at this revolt (it ended right as I logged on and deffed up) so I don't really feel we're upset and raging. I mean I haven't said once that it was OP and too much, just that you can't really compare it to nightgaze. My comment in this thread is in response to Ciaran saying it is too much. So yeah, context. cool
I was accusing Hallifaxians, and those who were complaining, but you assume that I'm accusing you here.
Just because it's easy to point out how your opinions on the use of shielding change significantly based on who is being attacked, doesn't mean I came here to illustrate your inconsistency.
That was just a bonus.
Except it hasn't change.... as I pointed out the differences that you've seem to promptly ignore.
Just like you ignored me saying I understood your point regarding debating/psychic vampirism on Dok the other day, going so far as to toss insults, rather than have a civil discussion.
Good thing you can accuse others of double standards though
Can we stop this conversation on tweets? There is a proper environment for the discussion and change as you all pointed out to me in my reality post. Not only is this not limited in the number of reports, it's not limited by who can make reports.
I would be happy to answer any questions for envoys looking to make a report regarding the numbers I have found regarding these skills. I can say that I believe the damage on quantum and aurora is too high. However, I am not an envoy and have no say in that discussion, all I can do is provide the research I have done on the skills if there are any specific questions.
Trust us, we know that we can create reports; I've already forwarded some logs of the damage potential when a person has none of the affs at all to someone who wasn't actually hit by it (and can just look at it from the log standpoint), and put it up from there.
In hopes of increasing the overall understanding of the skills:
The affs only boost the damage of Vacuum. I suspect (though I was gone for the majority of the revolt) that Morbo was using Quantum. This does a high base level of damage regardless of what you're afflicted with.
His main boosts were likely:
Thinktank with melder (large dmg boost, of which I have anectdotal knowledge)
malt + dmg dmp
curio + dmg dmp
war + dmg dmp
magic dmg rune + 20%
possibly interference - resists dmp
thinktank + range
all sorts of int boosts
I'm thinking we'll need to look at thinktank both boosting range and damage as a target for nerfs.
Yes, it was Quantum (as per the logs I sent, there's even a deathsight in there of someone else dying to it while I ate a large damage hit myself). But it's a 1v1 spec, right? *cough*
Edit: "There is a proper environment for the discussion and change as you all
pointed out to me in my reality post. Not only is this not limited in
the number of reports, it's not limited by who can make reports."
You already said this and I already told you that Envoys know, and are planning to...
Can we stop this conversation on tweets? There is a proper environment for the discussion and change as you all pointed out to me in my reality post. Not only is this not limited in the number of reports, it's not limited by who can make reports.
I would be happy to answer any questions for envoys looking to make a report regarding the numbers I have found regarding these skills. I can say that I believe the damage on quantum and aurora is too high. However, I am not an envoy and have no say in that discussion, all I can do is provide the research I have done on the skills if there are any specific questions.
You can approach your envoy with your numbers and give her ideas on how to adjust these, and then she can make reports to add to the special report.
Trust us, we know that we can create reports; I've already forwarded some logs of the damage potential when a person has none of the affs at all to someone who wasn't actually hit by it (and can just look at it from the log standpoint), and put it up from there.
In hopes of increasing the overall understanding of the skills:
The affs only boost the damage of Vacuum. I suspect (though I was gone for the majority of the revolt) that Morbo was using Quantum. This does a high base level of damage regardless of what you're afflicted with.
His main boosts were likely:
Thinktank with melder (large dmg boost, of which I have anectdotal knowledge)
malt + dmg dmp
curio + dmg dmp
war + dmg dmp
magic dmg rune + 20%
possibly interference - resists dmp
thinktank + range
all sorts of int boosts
I'm thinking we'll need to look at thinktank both boosting range and damage as a target for nerfs.
Yes, it was Quantum (as per the logs I sent, there's even a deathsight in there of someone else dying to it while I ate a large damage hit myself). But it's a 1v1 spec, right? *cough*
Morshoth, was that massive hit the one right before I grabbed the last few hits on you during the revolt, and killed you? If so I can lend my voice as well. I don't have a log but I have a wound tracking addon that follows health and as soon as you walked into the room and I moved to hit you, you were at like... 15% health.
"He was well fed, and on his way to being slightly intoxicated--which contributed to his sense of wellbeing. And, most important, he was among friends. There can't be much more to life than this, he thought." -Pug's thoughts on his first Ale (via Raymond Feist)
Solution #1: Replace shortbreath with dizziness/crushwindpipe/vapors
Solution #2: Replace the shortbreath affliction with an effect that decreases the time
left on the HOLD BREATH defense by a small amount. (I'm thinking 5-10 seconds.) If the
target is not using breathing, give them the hyperventilating 'affliction' for a short
time. (10-20 seconds?)
Static:
Static report was okay. It wasn't a complete nerf though, more of a rebalance considering it asked to reduce some things in exchange for an increase in useability. It did not address the stun proc change until I mentioned it though.
Forcewall:
Oldest version:
Solution #1: Change raising a forcewall to consume three power and loosen up available actions that drop it like curing/shielding, etc. (paraphrased, lost the initial phrasing).
Older version:
Solution #1: Change raising a forcewall to consume three power. Change the wall to only
be dropped if the raiser uses balance or equilibrium.
Newer version.
Solution #1: Change raising a forcewall to consume three power. Change the wall to only
be dropped if the raiser uses balance or equilibrium, or performs any healing action
(sipping, eating herbs, reading scroll, etc.).
------------------------------
A lot those reports mentioned were literal buffs when we commented on them, and they were only changed after we had a discussion over the channel.
P.S. apparently all regular players can read special reports. Try doing REPORT LIST SPECIAL and see if you can read them.
Not that it matters, but you can't start a catalyst and then move to the next room to hit with it anymore.
So, here's what I'll say, because I'd like to think I can see things from both sides.
Yes, think tank does need looking at, maybe requiring 3+ people for a room extension of 1. Yes, catalysts do need work. Not a large amount, as that's 75% of an aerochemancers offense. Damage needs a nerf.
Maybe make catalysts a focused attack that is stopped by blind/prone/sleep/whatever.
Limit one per room in a specific timeframe.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
You seem to get the impression that I'm defending the way catalysts work.
As for the Reality thread, Shuyin was one of the limited number of people being reasonable in that thread (on both sides). He agreed that some uses of Reality were problematic, and needed nerfs. I wish the Hallifax envoys would do us the same courtesy.
Signature!
This is fantastic. Inb4 posts deletion.
Also, the argument for the chemantics bombs have already been run roughshod, roughly 3 months BEFORE from this Rikenfriez revolt. Feel free to look back at the Aqua/Wildewood threads. Pretty much nothing justifies that kind of damage. To be more accurate, the TONED DOWN damage of the current Aquachem/Wildewood JUSTIFIES the additional messages that were put in from the wildewood report. Not the other way around, and not to justify something that does even more.
Secondly, Aerochem damage has already been flagged for being TOO HIGH as compared to the Aquachem/Wildewood skills. This is a tested fact. We're still waiting for the admin to do something, who are probably waiting for the playerbase to test this in action. Which... guess what, just has been done in the revolt. Morbo's got one thing right about the envoy system, though. I wasn't very sure when he was saying there are biased envoys who really twist everything to try and suit their agenda with no regard for inter-class balance, because that's a vague and general statement, but he certainly fits the bill himself.
Signature!
There is currently a special report for Aerochemantics and any envoy can create a special report by using REPORT CREATE SPECIAL.
I do not want to enflame this conversation further but there is an avenue for change at your finger tips.
Also regarding "all the reports being buffs" The changes to positronic, forcewall, and static are all intentional nerfs. Short breath was causing attrition situations with classes where any astrologer or warrior/monk was running out of endurance, forcewall adds a power cost to a wall that is similar to stonewall in what can bypass it, and static reduces the extremely powerful start of the static which can change the field of battle in an instant.
I was accusing Hallifaxians, and those who were complaining, but you assume that I'm accusing you here.
Signature!
Note: "Nerfing" something by taking part of it away and then adding something even stronger isn't actually a nerf.
Signature!
I would be happy to answer any questions for envoys looking to make a report regarding the numbers I have found regarding these skills. I can say that I believe the damage on quantum and aurora is too high. However, I am not an envoy and have no say in that discussion, all I can do is provide the research I have done on the skills if there are any specific questions.
Edit: "There is a proper environment for the discussion and change as you all pointed out to me in my reality post. Not only is this not limited in the number of reports, it's not limited by who can make reports."
You already said this and I already told you that Envoys know, and are planning to...
Signature!
"He was well fed, and on his way to being slightly intoxicated--which contributed to his sense of wellbeing. And, most important, he was among friends. There can't be much more to life than this, he thought." -Pug's thoughts on his first Ale (via Raymond Feist)
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So, here's what I'll say, because I'd like to think I can see things from both sides.
Yes, think tank does need looking at, maybe requiring 3+ people for a room extension of 1.
Yes, catalysts do need work. Not a large amount, as that's 75% of an aerochemancers offense. Damage needs a nerf.
Maybe make catalysts a focused attack that is stopped by blind/prone/sleep/whatever.
Limit one per room in a specific timeframe.