I still remember the false gods event fondly. Not just because I got to make a giant gun. O:-) But also because afterwards we were allowed to not use the gun on Gaudiguch. In fact, during that part of the event there were no one who doubted that we had the power to change how the event progressed, and there were arguments that we should fire the gun, even if we didn't want to, simply out of respect for the admin and to not waste the work they'd put into planning whatever would've happened when we shot at Gaudi.
I think... a lot of the difficulties may stem from the fact that events feel a lot more open-ended these days. From past events, like the Ice Angels, we've been conditioned to feel that there's no need to try any alternatives, because nothing we did really ended up as part of the event. While there were instances of people puzzling things out and grilling mobs for information, even getting something in return, these actions ended up ultimately meaningless for the plot itself. Learning about the Deep Beliefs did not in any noticeable way change how the Toymaker event played out. Supporting the Ice Angels in their event was pretty aggressively enforced by the narrative. And I remember divine actively shutting down any attempts to be suspicious about the Czigany crew, though I personally still think they're fishy as all hell.
My point is, these things feel really different now. Choosing which locations were to be protected felt like an active choice. Clouding Hallifax was an active choice. Securing the dreamers espionage device was an active choice. Choices may have theoretically existed in the past, but now events actually feel like they're collaborative stories, rather than set plots where we're only playing the role of enabling bit-characters.
And I really appreciate that. Thank you admin.
Everyone is a genius. But if you judge a fish on its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.
I've written another post here. It is rather sensitive in nature, and I'll welcome any questions you might have. However, I will not:
Entertain any trolling whatsoever. Your attempts to harass me for the post will only prove my point.
Give you any names.
I also hope that you read it completely. These blogs are meant to be a raw look behind-the-scenes in the lives of the Lusternia administration, and frankly, for some of us, this post was a long time coming. Do we hate you? Of course not! We wouldn't still be here if we did, and we honestly love what we do.
Do we think it's time some of you curb your attitudes toward the staff? Absolutely.
On the topic of baggage - Why not choose a completely new god that doesn't have any (assuming this is an allowed choice by Estarra for all admin)? I suppose this question is in part of how well do past admin take notes on their godrole and second part of how does changing the personality of the god from what people know as a new admin takes it over affect the role, both on a player viewing level and an admin level.
On a more different matter - How do we, players, tell if a god is just not around because of real life, being to busy behind the scenes, or just because the players make it not fun? How rude would it be seen as if we just asked the god why? For example, @Jadice isn't really seen all that much by her order (however small it may be at this time and that she has said she wouldn't be around as much as other gods might be). While I would love to think that she is just busy with behind the scenes work and trying to earn her godrealm, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think that I could be a reason she doesn't show up. And that I would never know this fact.
A really well written blog post and one sorely needed. Thank you
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state my opinion. It's not going to be popular, and I may get flagged for it, but here goes.
I think some of you in the havens have a serious lack of the ability to seperate your IC persona from your OOC/Admin persona. It's disheartening, because that's really a cornerstone of being an admin that also interacts with people.
You people in the Havens do amaaaaazing work. Period. I've seen ambiances, world emotes, rp/mpos, and much more that really makes Lusternia come alive from the two dimensional text world it really is. Many people say that newbies are the life's blood of Lusternia; I say that the motivated admin are just as important as the newbies we get. Thank you for all that you do, even the things we'll never see.
But to think that our treatment of you IC is someone connected to your OOC/Admin work is for lack of a better word, foolish. You mention that when a new player takes on an old persona, that they may not be ready to be treated like the old player was treated, and I get that. But to mortals, icly, there's no difference. It's the same god or goddess that betrayed your god, or urged their followers to slaughter you and your home. There's no cool down period; there can't be, and really, shouldn't be. This isn't Eventru and Lyreth fusion-ha'ing into Valtreth. It's the same person, and while I know it can be rough, I feel that treating this new player in an older god's body with kid gloves is disrespectful at best.
Not only that, but a character can dislike you icly and appreciate you oocly. Shaddus and Terentia used to go back and forth constantly, but Pesukaru and Terentia got along great. Later, when I came to know Terentia ' s player and we would chat, I found them to be a really interesting person, and I wouldn't have had it any other way.
So to sum it up, we love you guys and the hard, thankless work you do. That's not going to stop us from disliking you icly.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
On the topic of baggage - Why not choose a completely new god that doesn't have any (assuming this is an allowed choice by Estarra for all admin)? I suppose this question is in part of how well do past admin take notes on their godrole and second part of how does changing the personality of the god from what people know as a new admin takes it over affect the role, both on a player viewing level and an admin level.
I would imagine that that continuity and pleasing the base are a part of it. Whenever a new God comes out for any given org, there's inevitably a group that complains (seriously or not) that they should have just brought back x.
The decision to take a god role is a personal one, with a few exceptions. There's definitely a nudge (or a pretty hefty push) from above to take a role that will flesh out an organization that may be hurting for a visible god.
It's also next to impossible to tell whether a god character has the kind of "baggage" I referred to in my post. How would I have known, having never really interacted with the first Lisaera, that She left unfinished business with a handful of prominent characters? Don't get me wrong -- the perks to taking Her on were huge (who wouldn't want to be a super powerful witch goddess with an amazing backstory?!), and I'm happy with my decision. But some of my colleagues haven't been so lucky.
As for how you tell whether a god has gone radio silent for the reasons I've outlined: it's tough. You can't really break that fourth wall. If you are close enough with a god that you can have an in-character conversation, you might be able to suss out some details that way. I've known gods who have had those precious moments with their orders that ultimately saved them for a few more months.
You will probably never know why a god has stepped down. It's sometimes totally unrelated to Lusternia and how they feel they've been treated. And sometimes it is. That's, hopefully, what this post is going to get you to think about.
I've written another post here. It is rather sensitive in nature, and I'll welcome any questions you might have. However, I will not:
Entertain any trolling whatsoever. Your attempts to harass me for the post will only prove my point.
Give you any names.
I also hope that you read it completely. These blogs are meant to be a raw look behind-the-scenes in the lives of the Lusternia administration, and frankly, for some of us, this post was a long time coming. Do we hate you? Of course not! We wouldn't still be here if we did, and we honestly love what we do.
Do we think it's time some of you curb your attitudes toward the staff? Absolutely.
From the player side, there are also some things to consider. When it comes to interactions between us and the Divine, we hold none of the power whatsoever. It's pretty easy to get really upset and snappy if you, as a player, find yourself getting zapped repeatedly without recourse (because, as you say, there is no guidebook for standard reactions to specific events). I think it's completely understandable for a player in this situation to not know of any other way to react. It is a two-way street, and I know that I've counseled players in this situation to try sending an OOC-note to the Divine in question saying that they're not having fun with the interaction as-is and trying for something slightly different. Trying to figure out where the line is between "I have the powers to do this so I can" and "But should I?" is extraordinarily rough because every player is going to react differently (someone might love the very same thing that another is completely devastated by!).
We also can change over time. For example, I recall a specific event many years ago where a God turned the Master Ravenwood pink. That's something that I don't think I would get quite as upset about now (though I still can't say I'd appreciate it). On the other hand, there was an occasion where a God Divine Mandated Glomdoring's nexus to do some 1-person-roleplay-- so anyone who came to the Nexus was stuck, nobody could leave, and we couldn't even warn other people to avoid it. That was a bit less fun, and something I believe has been learned from (I have never heard of it happening again, at least). I've even been in the situation where a specific God from another organization was doing things to me just for "fun"-- since it was opposing, it was kind of negative, but I was rolling with it for a while but it just kept escalating and got very unpleasant.
I know I have said this to Estarra before, but I honestly do think that Players and Divine are a bit too separate. It's very easy for some to fall into the trap of only seeing you as "the Authority" and thus try to move into the role of "opposition". It would do people good to actually see the Gods as people more often, not just faces of Lusternia's administration. This is something which the God Blogs are really good for, by the way! But they are also quite periodic (you all have way more fun things to be doing than writing blogs most of the time, I'm sure). But without more interaction, it's really hard to tell when someone's not enjoying it on either side.
I definitely agree that holding grudges in this regard is something that we should as players try not to do, especially if the God is making attempts to "smooth" things over (obviously not going to give an apology, that's not really in the role, so we as players need to recognize signs we're given and be willing to work with them).
Also, the basic gist of this blog is something that we've tried to instill in Glomdoring at least; I have had the conversation with some of our recent newbies. I believe there was even one who felt that she owed a certain divine of an opposing organization an apology after we spoke, because she had been behaving rather... inappropriately. Viravain the First quite emphatically drilled into us that all Divine are to be respected, even if we do not personally like them. You do not badmouth them. You do not taunt, or insult them. If they must be opposed, then she will do it. It's something that we have definitely tried to preserve over the years, specifically for the reasons outlined in this blog post.
I've never understood the "God reveals self, immediately gets insults and rubbish shouted at them, even when your own Gods are zapping you for doing it" mentality. I've thankfully seen a lot less of it recently than I used to.
One reason I have always loved Lusternia and keep coming back is because of the Admin: both how the Gods invest themselves as characters in the game and how much effort goes into creating new areas, new quest lines, expanding the world, et cetera. And those are just the visible things I get to see and enjoy!
I know the blog post isn't fishing for a 'Thank you, admin,' buuuut.
I've written another post here. It is rather sensitive in nature, and I'll welcome any questions you might have. However, I will not:
Entertain any trolling whatsoever. Your attempts to harass me for the post will only prove my point.
Give you any names.
I also hope that you read it completely. These blogs are meant to be a raw look behind-the-scenes in the lives of the Lusternia administration, and frankly, for some of us, this post was a long time coming. Do we hate you? Of course not! We wouldn't still be here if we did, and we honestly love what we do.
Do we think it's time some of you curb your attitudes toward the staff? Absolutely.
<other stuff>
I've never understood the "God reveals self, immediately gets insults and rubbish shouted at them, even when your own Gods are zapping you for doing it" mentality. I've thankfully seen a lot less of it recently than I used to.
I think this comes from the anti-god groups that see the Elders as failures for being unable to stop the Soulless and that non-Elders have done more in the fights against the Soulless (at least as we know so far)
That, as well as how Fain used to urge me to shout insults at terentia until she zapped me.
I think booze was involved oocly >.>
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
A really well written blog post and one sorely needed. Thank you
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state my opinion. It's not going to be popular, and I may get flagged for it, but here goes.
I think some of you in the havens have a serious lack of the ability to seperate your IC persona from your OOC/Admin persona. It's disheartening, because that's really a cornerstone of being an admin that also interacts with people.
You people in the Havens do amaaaaazing work. Period. I've seen ambiances, world emotes, rp/mpos, and much more that really makes Lusternia come alive from the two dimensional text world it really is. Many people say that newbies are the life's blood of Lusternia; I say that the motivated admin are just as important as the newbies we get. Thank you for all that you do, even the things we'll never see.
But to think that our treatment of you IC is someone connected to your OOC/Admin work is for lack of a better word, foolish. You mention that when a new player takes on an old persona, that they may not be ready to be treated like the old player was treated, and I get that. But to mortals, icly, there's no difference. It's the same god or goddess that betrayed your god, or urged their followers to slaughter you and your home. There's no cool down period; there can't be, and really, shouldn't be. This isn't Eventru and Lyreth fusion-ha'ing into Valtreth. It's the same person, and while I know it can be rough, I feel that treating this new player in an older god's body with kid gloves is disrespectful at best.
Not only that, but a character can dislike you icly and appreciate you oocly. Shaddus and Terentia used to go back and forth constantly, but Pesukaru and Terentia got along great. Later, when I came to know Terentia ' s player and we would chat, I found them to be a really interesting person, and I wouldn't have had it any other way.
So to sum it up, we love you guys and the hard, thankless work you do. That's not going to stop us from disliking you icly.
That disconnect though also involves players not recognizing that the IC persona and OOC admin are not the same thing. If someone takes an existing god role you obviously know the person behind the screen is a new person. They're a new actor playing an existing role. Show up with those old grudges if it makes for a good story but show up with a "My name is Inigo Montoya" moment so they know why you've got that grude. And if it isn't providing a good story just drop it, the grudge shouldn't actually be real.
It was difficult for me to articulate that section, regarding the "guidebook" for godly behavior. We absolutely DO have one, but it's flexible enough to let us get tough if we have to. We are also crippled by the complete inability to truly be "authoritative" in the sense that if we do attempt to make a divine ruling for our immediate playerbase, the current culture is extreme pushback and flagrant OOC abuse. Forget repeatedly zapping someone -- it takes serious counseling from other members of the team to figure out how to reasonably punish X Mortal, who just called a god a foul name on CT, without risking another wave of IC and OOC pain.
When mortals band together and gang up on a god, it's all over. We really have no recourse, other than gritting and bearing it until the drama naturally fades away, all because we disfavoured someone for calling us bad names. If you're a Goddess with a relatively short temper or happen to be a God with a traitorous past, you run the risk of players starting "wars" with you, who inevitably go to extreme lengths to make you feel like you've ruined their gaming experience because you've consistently punished their bad behavior.
Anyway. I (and we) are not complaining about having to get tough or what it means to be on the receiving end of a player who might feel like we're bullying them. Those OOC messages you mentioned are crucial in this, and we look for that feedback. Is Lisaera too hostile? Is Fain too aggressive? We want that feedback so we can make better decisions for the overall playability of the game. It's when that feedback doesn't happen and mortals instead go out of their way to drive us away that we can't forgive.
I'm happy there's a resurgence of "respect the gods, no matter what." None of us (and I really do believe none of us) ascribe to the idea that mortals are meant to be tormented. If it feels like we're going out of our way to do that to you, tell us. We'll stop. I DO ascribe to the belief that we deserve your respect, no matter what, without the equalizer statement of "respect must be earned." We build your game. We have earned it more than you will ever know.
The mean gods have always been my favorite. The ones that wield their awesome, godly powers to occasionally drag my arrogant PK behind back to earth. The sweet, sweet abuse is so alluring. The love hurts so good.
It's a weird dichotomy gods exist in. Players see them simultaneously as all powerful gods and creators of the worlds they exist in, and at the same time, administrators above the direct consequences of organizational decisions and actions and thus should not be involved in them. Those are tough positions to reconcile.
Viravain, for example, can be the creatress of the Wyrd and it's reason for existing and have visceral reactions to how the players govern it, and at the same time, completely unaffected by alliances and politics as an administrator which comes across as invasive and intrusive to players who have to now defend the org from raiders and win domoths. I think this is where most players struggle to separate gods from admin and then go off the deep end.
Simple dislike of a god role is not what I meant. That's silly. We're pros at taking a player's IC rage and turning it into something useful to drive a plot device we might be cooking up. That kind of give-and-take in an IC interaction is what helps keep the game fun for everyone, including the players who might be a little more aggressive than their peers when it comes to IC feuds.
I hoped I made it clear in my post that I'm actually referring to extreme examples of this. Constant berating on public channels, attempts to spread truly vicious lies about a god's words, tells that only aim to upset or terrorize us -- par for the course. We can usually deal with that in our own way. If there's no end to this behavior, however, we have to get serious. We're players, too, and as I said in my post -- we're easy targets. But I digress.
I'm referring to actual harassment. OOC tells, OOC says in public places, OOC messages on the forums, rants about how terrible we are in forums topics... you know -- classic online bullying. The kind that would make anyone who pours their energy into the game desperate to make it stop. If that means we're unable to separate our OOC realities from our in-game roles, then fine. We're guilty as charged. And it's a unanimous feeling, so if we're wrong for what we're feeling, you're in trouble. There won't be any gods left.
NGL. For reasons I may have said some un-nice things about @Lisaera, the Character, not Lisaera the player, recently. I was led to believe certain things, and then Lisaera appearing suddenly at the same time, in anger, was sort of an "oh, great here it comes from the Divine now". Turned out it was for something else entirely that Lisaera appeared and I apologise if you were listening to anything said at that time that may have offended/hurt you. I actually do have a pretty decent fondness for Lisaera the Character, I just don't follow her cause well, everyone and their puppy follows Lisaera in Serenwilde.
Now, if you could just give @Hoaracle a kick in the shin so I can do something other than just offer to him that would be awesome!
Well, I hope I've never been the reason that a god has stepped down. Despite my vitriol at some in character, and yes, complaining about a select few, I can't think of a single divine I could say I disliked enough to try and run off.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
And if someone sends you a hateful OOC tell, Lisaera and the rest of the admin, I'm sorry. You're appreciated more than you know.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
On a more different matter - How do we, players, tell if a god is just not around because of real life, being to busy behind the scenes, or just because the players make it not fun? How rude would it be seen as if we just asked the god why? For example, @Jadice isn't really seen all that much by her order (however small it may be at this time and that she has said she wouldn't be around as much as other gods might be). While I would love to think that she is just busy with behind the scenes work and trying to earn her godrealm, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think that I could be a reason she doesn't show up. And that I would never know this fact.
There isn't a good way for players to tell, really, for what reason a god hasn't been around (and you shouldn't ask). Having said that, @Ayisdra, I am very busy IRL (it's one of the reasons I chose to play a meditator), and you are not a reason I don't show up. What really causes admin to get upset is mostly spiteful gossiping or harassment of the admin in question, usually in a way that makes it pretty clear that the bad will is aimed at the admin-player, not at the godrole character (what Lisaera correctly called 'actual online bullying'). The most negative reaction I've ever witnessed an admin have to a player who is inadvertently frustrating is exasperation.
While I'm adding my two cents... the thing that irks me the most, personally, is players who don't believe (or seem to forget) that we, the admin, really and truly don't act out of personal grudges toward you, as a player, or toward an organisation. There are players whose attitude and behaviour we might find distasteful, of course, and when that reaches a certain level, we'll mostly just avoid that person. We don't wage personal campaigns against players, or try to make anyone unhappy. An admin who did so would be quickly fired.
All of which is quite separate to IC disrespect and mortal-character/godrole conflict, which is par for the course. I don't especially enjoy that avenue of roleplay, which is one of the reasons I play a god as aloof and hardline as Jadice, but I don't begrudge anyone for attempting to start down that path. Just don't be surprised when Jadice won't have a bar of it. Also, if you're involved in an ongoing IC/RP conflict with a god and you are not enjoying it, I definitely encourage you to send that god an OOC message telling them so and that you'd like to de-escalate. I've received such messages in the past, and I've been glad of every one of them. Sometimes it really is as easy as just... stopping that line of RP and never talking about it again.
Now I totally feel bad for trolling Serane that one time(sorry, admins!)
It's the first time that I've heard of the incidents outlined above where gods are being trolled ooc-ly and willfully and it's disappointing that it's happening. You godmins add another lively facet to Lusternia, and I'm forever thankful for it. I've thoroughly enjoyed my time here all the more because of the Divines. It's one of the biggest reasons I never left.
Viravain, Lady of the Thorns shouts, "And You would seize Me? Fool! I am the Glomdoring! I am the Wyrd, and beneath the cloak of Night, the shadows of the Silent stir!"
Re: messaging gods to tell them to back off on things. It'd probably be a good idea to put that in HELP GODS or somewhere similar. It's not always clear to newish people that it's an option. When I was new, I didn't even realize that gods had messages like players did. Having been in that position, at that time, it very much felt like a god doing something meant that it was acceptable to the admin as a whole and there was nothing to do except tolerate it. It's certainly easy to feel like you don't have any choice in the matter when a god suddenly shows up to do something with you, even when it's something you'd really rather not be doing. The power difference makes it very hard to tell when something is optional.
When I was a relatively new person, I was occasionally in the position of wanting to just log off when gods did things with me and feeling like I had no choice but to do so, because leaving would just make the problem bigger. Not always just from gods doing things, either. Players can play a part in this too. My solution at this point is to avoid interacting with gods as meticulously as possible, and it mostly works. I appreciate that the admin has mostly reciprocated and avoided me in an IC capacity, and that the gods who have wanted to involve me with things have asked instead of ordered. But just blanket avoiding god interactions isn't exactly ideal by any means, so it's probably a good idea to make it more clear that you can just message them to back off when it's getting unpleasant.
Any sufficiently advanced pun is indistinguishable from comedy.
I just want to say that I've played non-IRE muds and the types of shennanigans and abuse the gods can and will do in other games is shocking. I've never seen anything like that in my 10+ years of playing IRE games - the admin in IRE are trained incredibly and have a level of decorum and maturity you simply don't see in other games. I just wanted to give some perspective - IRE admins are a very rare breed and are a big factor in why many people pick IRE games. Please don't scare them off!
Seconding what Breandryn said. I was in one MUD where the creator and the small handful of admin also played characters in the game and were so....corrupt - giving themselves ranking positions, OP gear, breaking rules, hard on people they didn't like etc etc. It was disgusting.
Our admin are incredible, and I know I have been guilty of bitter divine-bashing in ooc mediums but I have absolute respect for all of you and the work you do, and just how hard you try to be fair and impartial (from an ooc perspective, your characters can be corrupt as all Nil). You are all so appreciated.
Just to clarify, @Portius, in my experience it's almost never a matter of telling the admin to back off. If someone openly defies Jadice IC, I don't really have a choice except to slap them down. I don't enjoy it, because it's nerve-wracking — what if they're taking it personally? what if they're just wanting attention and this zap will make their behaviour worse? what if they lie about the situation after the fact to all their friends and paint me as a tyrant/bully? — but we are playing actual gods, and it just doesn't make sense for some of those gods to turn a blind-eye or tactfully ignore intrusive belligerence.
My response to such OOC messages has been, more often than not, to say "Good, I'm not enjoying this either. Stop actively antagonising Jadice-the-character and we won't have any more problems."
To be fair, I hate you all, My only reward is getting to zap everyone.
Just to kind of touch on things I'm seeing discussed here, while it is fine to hate a Divine ICly, and it makes for great RP, just know there should always be boundaries. We aren't asking you to only ever have positive RP with us, but just know your limits. I think the majority of where this part of Lisaera's post comes from, however, is when it is taken OOC, or when the Divine, as a whole, are faulted for things that have or have not happened (i.e. being able to visit Nirvana). 99.9% of the time it is either out of our hands or FAR FAR beyond what capabilities we have behind the scenes.
And just to reiterate, I will end you all! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!
Comments
I think... a lot of the difficulties may stem from the fact that events feel a lot more open-ended these days. From past events, like the Ice Angels, we've been conditioned to feel that there's no need to try any alternatives, because nothing we did really ended up as part of the event. While there were instances of people puzzling things out and grilling mobs for information, even getting something in return, these actions ended up ultimately meaningless for the plot itself. Learning about the Deep Beliefs did not in any noticeable way change how the Toymaker event played out. Supporting the Ice Angels in their event was pretty aggressively enforced by the narrative. And I remember divine actively shutting down any attempts to be suspicious about the Czigany crew, though I personally still think they're fishy as all hell.
My point is, these things feel really different now. Choosing which locations were to be protected felt like an active choice. Clouding Hallifax was an active choice. Securing the dreamers espionage device was an active choice. Choices may have theoretically existed in the past, but now events actually feel like they're collaborative stories, rather than set plots where we're only playing the role of enabling bit-characters.
And I really appreciate that. Thank you admin.
- Entertain any trolling whatsoever. Your attempts to harass me for the post will only prove my point.
- Give you any names.
I also hope that you read it completely. These blogs are meant to be a raw look behind-the-scenes in the lives of the Lusternia administration, and frankly, for some of us, this post was a long time coming. Do we hate you? Of course not! We wouldn't still be here if we did, and we honestly love what we do.Do we think it's time some of you curb your attitudes toward the staff? Absolutely.
On a more different matter - How do we, players, tell if a god is just not around because of real life, being to busy behind the scenes, or just because the players make it not fun? How rude would it be seen as if we just asked the god why? For example, @Jadice isn't really seen all that much by her order (however small it may be at this time and that she has said she wouldn't be around as much as other gods might be). While I would love to think that she is just busy with behind the scenes work and trying to earn her godrealm, in the back of my mind, I can't help but think that I could be a reason she doesn't show up. And that I would never know this fact.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and state my opinion. It's not going to be popular, and I may get flagged for it, but here goes.
I think some of you in the havens have a serious lack of the ability to seperate your IC persona from your OOC/Admin persona. It's disheartening, because that's really a cornerstone of being an admin that also interacts with people.
You people in the Havens do amaaaaazing work. Period. I've seen ambiances, world emotes, rp/mpos, and much more that really makes Lusternia come alive from the two dimensional text world it really is. Many people say that newbies are the life's blood of Lusternia; I say that the motivated admin are just as important as the newbies we get. Thank you for all that you do, even the things we'll never see.
But to think that our treatment of you IC is someone connected to your OOC/Admin work is for lack of a better word, foolish. You mention that when a new player takes on an old persona, that they may not be ready to be treated like the old player was treated, and I get that. But to mortals, icly, there's no difference. It's the same god or goddess that betrayed your god, or urged their followers to slaughter you and your home. There's no cool down period; there can't be, and really, shouldn't be. This isn't Eventru and Lyreth fusion-ha'ing into Valtreth. It's the same person, and while I know it can be rough, I feel that treating this new player in an older god's body with kid gloves is disrespectful at best.
Not only that, but a character can dislike you icly and appreciate you oocly. Shaddus and Terentia used to go back and forth constantly, but Pesukaru and Terentia got along great. Later, when I came to know Terentia ' s player and we would chat, I found them to be a really interesting person, and I wouldn't have had it any other way.
So to sum it up, we love you guys and the hard, thankless work you do. That's not going to stop us from disliking you icly.
The decision to take a god role is a personal one, with a few exceptions. There's definitely a nudge (or a pretty hefty push) from above to take a role that will flesh out an organization that may be hurting for a visible god.
It's also next to impossible to tell whether a god character has the kind of "baggage" I referred to in my post. How would I have known, having never really interacted with the first Lisaera, that She left unfinished business with a handful of prominent characters? Don't get me wrong -- the perks to taking Her on were huge (who wouldn't want to be a super powerful witch goddess with an amazing backstory?!), and I'm happy with my decision. But some of my colleagues haven't been so lucky.
As for how you tell whether a god has gone radio silent for the reasons I've outlined: it's tough. You can't really break that fourth wall. If you are close enough with a god that you can have an in-character conversation, you might be able to suss out some details that way. I've known gods who have had those precious moments with their orders that ultimately saved them for a few more months.
You will probably never know why a god has stepped down. It's sometimes totally unrelated to Lusternia and how they feel they've been treated. And sometimes it is. That's, hopefully, what this post is going to get you to think about.
We also can change over time. For example, I recall a specific event many years ago where a God turned the Master Ravenwood pink. That's something that I don't think I would get quite as upset about now (though I still can't say I'd appreciate it). On the other hand, there was an occasion where a God Divine Mandated Glomdoring's nexus to do some 1-person-roleplay-- so anyone who came to the Nexus was stuck, nobody could leave, and we couldn't even warn other people to avoid it. That was a bit less fun, and something I believe has been learned from (I have never heard of it happening again, at least). I've even been in the situation where a specific God from another organization was doing things to me just for "fun"-- since it was opposing, it was kind of negative, but I was rolling with it for a while but it just kept escalating and got very unpleasant.
I know I have said this to Estarra before, but I honestly do think that Players and Divine are a bit too separate. It's very easy for some to fall into the trap of only seeing you as "the Authority" and thus try to move into the role of "opposition". It would do people good to actually see the Gods as people more often, not just faces of Lusternia's administration. This is something which the God Blogs are really good for, by the way! But they are also quite periodic (you all have way more fun things to be doing than writing blogs most of the time, I'm sure). But without more interaction, it's really hard to tell when someone's not enjoying it on either side.
I definitely agree that holding grudges in this regard is something that we should as players try not to do, especially if the God is making attempts to "smooth" things over (obviously not going to give an apology, that's not really in the role, so we as players need to recognize signs we're given and be willing to work with them).
Also, the basic gist of this blog is something that we've tried to instill in Glomdoring at least; I have had the conversation with some of our recent newbies. I believe there was even one who felt that she owed a certain divine of an opposing organization an apology after we spoke, because she had been behaving rather... inappropriately. Viravain the First quite emphatically drilled into us that all Divine are to be respected, even if we do not personally like them. You do not badmouth them. You do not taunt, or insult them. If they must be opposed, then she will do it. It's something that we have definitely tried to preserve over the years, specifically for the reasons outlined in this blog post.
I've never understood the "God reveals self, immediately gets insults and rubbish shouted at them, even when your own Gods are zapping you for doing it" mentality. I've thankfully seen a lot less of it recently than I used to.
I know the blog post isn't fishing for a 'Thank you, admin,' buuuut.
I think booze was involved oocly >.>
It was difficult for me to articulate that section, regarding the "guidebook" for godly behavior. We absolutely DO have one, but it's flexible enough to let us get tough if we have to. We are also crippled by the complete inability to truly be "authoritative" in the sense that if we do attempt to make a divine ruling for our immediate playerbase, the current culture is extreme pushback and flagrant OOC abuse. Forget repeatedly zapping someone -- it takes serious counseling from other members of the team to figure out how to reasonably punish X Mortal, who just called a god a foul name on CT, without risking another wave of IC and OOC pain.
When mortals band together and gang up on a god, it's all over. We really have no recourse, other than gritting and bearing it until the drama naturally fades away, all because we disfavoured someone for calling us bad names. If you're a Goddess with a relatively short temper or happen to be a God with a traitorous past, you run the risk of players starting "wars" with you, who inevitably go to extreme lengths to make you feel like you've ruined their gaming experience because you've consistently punished their bad behavior.
Anyway. I (and we) are not complaining about having to get tough or what it means to be on the receiving end of a player who might feel like we're bullying them. Those OOC messages you mentioned are crucial in this, and we look for that feedback. Is Lisaera too hostile? Is Fain too aggressive? We want that feedback so we can make better decisions for the overall playability of the game. It's when that feedback doesn't happen and mortals instead go out of their way to drive us away that we can't forgive.
I'm happy there's a resurgence of "respect the gods, no matter what." None of us (and I really do believe none of us) ascribe to the idea that mortals are meant to be tormented. If it feels like we're going out of our way to do that to you, tell us. We'll stop. I DO ascribe to the belief that we deserve your respect, no matter what, without the equalizer statement of "respect must be earned." We build your game. We have earned it more than you will ever know.
It's a weird dichotomy gods exist in. Players see them simultaneously as all powerful gods and creators of the worlds they exist in, and at the same time, administrators above the direct consequences of organizational decisions and actions and thus should not be involved in them. Those are tough positions to reconcile.
Viravain, for example, can be the creatress of the Wyrd and it's reason for existing and have visceral reactions to how the players govern it, and at the same time, completely unaffected by alliances and politics as an administrator which comes across as invasive and intrusive to players who have to now defend the org from raiders and win domoths. I think this is where most players struggle to separate gods from admin and then go off the deep end.
Simple dislike of a god role is not what I meant. That's silly. We're pros at taking a player's IC rage and turning it into something useful to drive a plot device we might be cooking up. That kind of give-and-take in an IC interaction is what helps keep the game fun for everyone, including the players who might be a little more aggressive than their peers when it comes to IC feuds.
I hoped I made it clear in my post that I'm actually referring to extreme examples of this. Constant berating on public channels, attempts to spread truly vicious lies about a god's words, tells that only aim to upset or terrorize us -- par for the course. We can usually deal with that in our own way. If there's no end to this behavior, however, we have to get serious. We're players, too, and as I said in my post -- we're easy targets. But I digress.
I'm referring to actual harassment. OOC tells, OOC says in public places, OOC messages on the forums, rants about how terrible we are in forums topics... you know -- classic online bullying. The kind that would make anyone who pours their energy into the game desperate to make it stop. If that means we're unable to separate our OOC realities from our in-game roles, then fine. We're guilty as charged. And it's a unanimous feeling, so if we're wrong for what we're feeling, you're in trouble. There won't be any gods left.
Now, if you could just give @Hoaracle a kick in the shin so I can do something other than just offer to him that would be awesome!
Well, I hope I've never been the reason that a god has stepped down. Despite my vitriol at some in character, and yes, complaining about a select few, I can't think of a single divine I could say I disliked enough to try and run off.
While I'm adding my two cents... the thing that irks me the most, personally, is players who don't believe (or seem to forget) that we, the admin, really and truly don't act out of personal grudges toward you, as a player, or toward an organisation. There are players whose attitude and behaviour we might find distasteful, of course, and when that reaches a certain level, we'll mostly just avoid that person. We don't wage personal campaigns against players, or try to make anyone unhappy. An admin who did so would be quickly fired.
All of which is quite separate to IC disrespect and mortal-character/godrole conflict, which is par for the course. I don't especially enjoy that avenue of roleplay, which is one of the reasons I play a god as aloof and hardline as Jadice, but I don't begrudge anyone for attempting to start down that path. Just don't be surprised when Jadice won't have a bar of it. Also, if you're involved in an ongoing IC/RP conflict with a god and you are not enjoying it, I definitely encourage you to send that god an OOC message telling them so and that you'd like to de-escalate. I've received such messages in the past, and I've been glad of every one of them. Sometimes it really is as easy as just... stopping that line of RP and never talking about it again.
Now I totally feel bad for trolling Serane that one time(sorry, admins!)
It's the first time that I've heard of the incidents outlined above where gods are being trolled ooc-ly and willfully and it's disappointing that it's happening. You godmins add another lively facet to Lusternia, and I'm forever thankful for it. I've thoroughly enjoyed my time here all the more because of the Divines. It's one of the biggest reasons I never left.
When I was a relatively new person, I was occasionally in the position of wanting to just log off when gods did things with me and feeling like I had no choice but to do so, because leaving would just make the problem bigger. Not always just from gods doing things, either. Players can play a part in this too. My solution at this point is to avoid interacting with gods as meticulously as possible, and it mostly works. I appreciate that the admin has mostly reciprocated and avoided me in an IC capacity, and that the gods who have wanted to involve me with things have asked instead of ordered. But just blanket avoiding god interactions isn't exactly ideal by any means, so it's probably a good idea to make it more clear that you can just message them to back off when it's getting unpleasant.
Our admin are incredible, and I know I have been guilty of bitter divine-bashing in ooc mediums but I have absolute respect for all of you and the work you do, and just how hard you try to be fair and impartial (from an ooc perspective, your characters can be corrupt as all Nil). You are all so appreciated.
Just to kind of touch on things I'm seeing discussed here, while it is fine to hate a Divine ICly, and it makes for great RP, just know there should always be boundaries. We aren't asking you to only ever have positive RP with us, but just know your limits. I think the majority of where this part of Lisaera's post comes from, however, is when it is taken OOC, or when the Divine, as a whole, are faulted for things that have or have not happened (i.e. being able to visit Nirvana). 99.9% of the time it is either out of our hands or FAR FAR beyond what capabilities we have behind the scenes.
And just to reiterate, I will end you all! MWAHAHAHAHAHA!