You know, we don't have to take things to extremes.
I'm sure we can find a good sweet spot between "Completely letting a player design a skill that will be crazy OP" and "Admin designed surprise theme skill that may not be that great in practice".
For example, the admin can reveal to the selected player(s) the theme, the overarching goal (kill strategy, niche, etc), and a preliminary AB list, the players can give input/test it out on a server, then when it's mostly nice and set, reveal things to everyone else.
I imagine this would lead to less whining since it's run through a preliminary QA process already. The subsequent special report that comes after should be much smaller in scale too.
There's a difference between letting players design things, and (at some stage, late in the development of a skillset), letting (some) players peek at existing design to point out potential problem areas. Some of the things come out and immediately need or get hotfixes to patch issues that are voiced en masse. Having a step in the design process where those issues can be pointed out before it gets to implementation and public access could alleviate some of the bruised feelings from public outcry.
For example, the admin can reveal to the selected player(s) the theme, the overarching goal (kill strategy, niche, etc), and a preliminary AB list, the players can give input/test it out on a server, then when it's mostly nice and set, reveal things to everyone else.
This is exactly what I was suggesting; I don't think anyone wants to let players have full control over skillset mechanics; all that's needed is per-release feedback, to shoot down the worst problems.
Part of it is that I'm also used to a much more democratized process in general. I'm always really wary of having a "select few" people do anything, because in my experience even the most seemingly neutral people have a significant underlying bias when the hard decisions need to be made. This only becomes exacerbated when the majority (or, in the case of some games I've played, virtually all) of the volunteers come from a specific faction or combination of factions which exclude an entire segment of the game. Even in situations where there is a forced "affirmative action"-style quota for the players selected, it's always painfully obvious that the opinions of some are regarded as gospel while others are ignored.
Were it up to me, even classleads would allow universal commenting, or preferably a system for classlead submission that made envoys into a directly elected role that served as a filter for which reports get passed through and an advocate of them on (Envoys), rather than the combination author, critic, and jury that they are now.
But yeah, I am not saying the admin should tell the players "we want something kinda like this, have at it!" More... come to them with a finished product and say, "hey, if we released this next week/month/year, would you buy it?" After all, we are their customers, and even egocentric [filtered] companies like Apple showcase products and run market testing before release.
I think the conversation has veered significantly afield from Geochemantics. You're welcome to start a new thread and express your opinions and engage with others who care to hit the topic, however this should slip back into the intended one.
Yeah, the skill definitely does have a Shadowrun-esque feel to it that I found appealing (though not necessarily the type of char I'd personally want to play; my SR games always had me in the role of shaman or decker).
In terms of the suggestion for a replacement trans ability, I don't think a %-chance of plague cures failing is too ridiculous, as long as it was not an overly high %. Like someone mentioned, all the plague afflictions together do upwards of 5k damage per tick on top of what the cyborg is putting out actively, but they're also each on a separate cure balance, so they will never last until tick without a little help. I think having the trans ability do something that causesa few of the plague affs to persist until their tick makes the skill feel much more cohesive, and does work towards a definite kill strategy.
And the % chance to fail to cure a plague aff is almost very similar to the Cacophony song BlackDeath, that does almost the same thing (instead of failing to cure, it has a % chance to come back).
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
The problem being that these skills appear to be trying for group synergy, without concern to 1v1 combat (leaving the mage versions ahead in the race), and in that lens... cacophony already have both of those sorts of mechanics, and giving them to this spec would give a small group two different forms of the same mechanic, which would then stack.
The problem being that these skills appear to be trying for group synergy, without concern to 1v1 combat (leaving the mage versions ahead in the race), and in that lens... cacophony already have both of those sorts of mechanics, and giving them to this spec would give a small group two different forms of the same mechanic, which would then stack.
And Hallifax is good at stacking Timewarp, Gaudiguch stacks Insanity, and Glomdoring stacks bleeding and mana damage. All of those thing advance at least two different guilds' kill methods, and assist with hindering (or in Glom's case, attrition) to boot. I see nothing wrong with two guilds in the same city benefiting from a similar strategy, particularly one that isn't as powerful as Timewarp/Insanity, nor as prevalent as Bleeding/Mana Drain..
If the problem is either the use of thematically appropriate afflictions or the effects of the afflictions used, what are some ways the afflictions used could be improved? Realizing they'll be broadly buffed for anyone who uses this, of course. Still, starting to think about what could be done to improve those affs to make them actually useful versus just cure fodder would be a fine place to start discussion, imo.
Unlike some other affs, plague affs form the core of at least two other guilds (cacophony and nihilist) which are already strong guilds/skillsets. Some changes to vomiting could probably go off without much of a hitch, but any more and you start to increase the power of the rest of Magnagora far too much.
Picking better affs that achieve a coherent goal is probably a easier step to take than re-evaluating three entire guilds.
@Urfion: The problem isn't having two guilds benefiting from a similar strategy, that's what the skillset does now. The problem would be taking something very much like Black Plague (which already works pretty well for Cacophony, right?) and giving it to them (Magnagora in this case) twice. To take another favorite example, it'd be like taking NightShadeBlues from a Harbinger and giving a copy of it that stacks, as NightShadeBlues does not to Wyrdenwoods to fight alongside Harbingers with. (No one has suggested this, no one flip out)
EDIT: Or like taking sap from druids and giving a similar but slightly different thing to -woods. If it was the same, it wouldn't stack (more druids hitting sap doesn't make the sap... sappier), but if it's a different version of the same mechanic - as is being suggested here - it would stack, or require a special exclusion, which seems like a bad idea.
The other question with the trans skill is: do we want to shoot for buffing everything to the level of Static, or nerfing everything to the level of the Bloodmoss/Wildecall(at least half of it...)? I'd far prefer everyone running around with bloodmoss/wildecall than crazy-nutso Static level abilities, for what it's worth.
If the problem is either the use of thematically appropriate afflictions or the effects of the afflictions used, what are some ways the afflictions used could be improved? Realizing they'll be broadly buffed for anyone who uses this, of course. Still, starting to think about what could be done to improve those affs to make them actually useful versus just cure fodder would be a fine place to start discussion, imo.
Yeah, improving the plague affs would have major repercussions for Cacos and Nihilists. Better to just edit the geoborgs.
If you don't want to do a BlackPlague type effect, here's my idea for affliction changes: Passives: Vomiting (Toxic) [This cannot upgrade to Vomiting Blood], Vapors (Chemical), Worms (Taint), Black Lung(Ferrous) Backlash: Vomiting (Filth Pump) [If already Vomiting, afflict with Vomiting Blood instead], Dysentery (Polluted Studs), Health Leach (Cranial Plate), Haemophilia (Rusted Spikes)
These remain in theme while allowing the geoborg to actually push a cure balance (purgative), so that their afflictions can actually stick around long enough to mean something and while avoiding plague affs, for stacking worries.
Black lung is a traditionally glom aff so that one might not fly although it is rather thematic so who knows.
I think this is a better direction than making it more plague centric.
Just an fyi though, the various aff lists say that vomiting blood causes bleeding but it does not. It's a bonecrusher aff so it's "internal bleeding." It is less desirable to regular vomiting.
Black lung is a traditionally glom aff so that one might not fly although it is rather thematic so who knows.
I figured that it was in theme enough that it might be considered despite being a traditionally glom aff.
Just an fyi though, the various aff lists say that vomiting blood causes bleeding but it does not. It's a bonecrusher aff so it's "internal bleeding." It is less desirable to regular vomiting.
So it inflicts deepwounds or something? I'm afraid I have very little experience with bonecrushers. If that's the case, I would move Haemophilia to the Filth Pump, and change the Rusted Spikes to a moderate amount of bleeding.
Some time ago I was playing with it after I had an idea of possibly stacking choleric cures. I was so surprised that I bugged it and was told newp, no bleeding.
I think it's just a small damage tic, like ~200 or so. Don't remember exactly though.
These remain in theme while allowing the geoborg to actually push a cure balance (purgative), so that their afflictions can actually stick around long enough to mean something and while avoiding plague affs, for stacking worries.
Apply melancholic actually takes salve balance, not purgative.
These remain in theme while allowing the geoborg to actually push a cure balance (purgative), so that their afflictions can actually stick around long enough to mean something and while avoiding plague affs, for stacking worries.
Apply melancholic actually takes salve balance, not purgative.
I'm aware; that's why I put two of them in the passives. Two apply melancholics, two sip cholerics. They aren't all meant to stack, unless you think that would be a good idea. Besides, a geoborg could take advantage of salve passives using TK. That way, a target has to choose the order they want to deal with blackout, off balance, or broken limbs. The vomiting and worms aren't really there to promote an offense, but for theme. Alternatively, you could switch Healthleech/Haemophilia with Vomiting/Worms, to better promote vessel bleeding, or replace Vomiting/Worms with Dizziness/Withered Limb for better hindering with Black Lung/Vapors.
Actually, now that I think about it, Dizziness/Withered Limb/Black Lung/Vapors as the fumes, combined with Burst/PsiFist/Clot or PsiDagger (with Clacise/Dendroxin) might be able to pursue a decent offense in single combat while remaining in theme.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Why are you giving bleeding to geomancers? Seems kind of random.
If that was intentional, then vapors, healthleech and haemophilia all have alternative herb cures. So the fumes hit on 3 cure balances and you'd be left over with 1 aff, either worms or vomiting on fume hit. None of the terts work with purgatives, and 1 herb/salve every 10s, plus the odd rebound hit, isn't really going to support psionics (inasmuch as it needs it NO CELINA YOUR COMMENTS ON PSIONICS ARE NOT NECESSARY).
For the new ones ... now spread across 3-4 cures (dizziness can be focus, herb or salve, vapors can be purgative or salve, blacklung/twisted are salve-only). Still get a doubled up salve application, which is preferable to a doubled-up purgative, and twisted might make some people apply.
If you cut out the dizziness and replace it with pox, you have 3 salve-only cures, which would be too much for a passive 10s-tick, but it can work as a substitute if blacklung or twisted is deemed 'too much' for other reasons.
EDIT: Dizziness, although bad on its own, would actually work as a cover for the generic 'plague' affliction epilepsy check. You send kombu or fmind to catch a hidden epilepsy but hit dizziness, so may spend another balance. Not a bad idea, although I feel the timing is likely to very rarely line up.
Wyrden lacks in the synergy department but has the ability to stack large numbers of affs immediately before their burst. Not sure how effective that is, though, I think the damage scaling even for high numbers is pretty low.
And yeah, I came up with the following thing (still missing other aspects):
GEOCHEM:
Timed:
vomiting (choleric)
dizziness (kombu, melancholic, fmind)
pox (liniment)
damage
Rebound:
damage
offbal
rigormortis (marjoram)
healthleech (horehound, sanguine)
AQUACHEM:
Timed:
ego drain
vapors (kombu, melancholic)
recklessness (horehound, fmind)
blind/faeriefire (faeleaf) (fspirit)
Rebound:
ego drain
justice (reishi)
addiction (galingale, fmind)
lovers (galingale, fmind)
AEROCHEM:
Timed:
damage
sensitivity (myrtle, melancholic)
epilepsy (kombu, fmind)
asthma (melancholic)
Rebound:
offbal
aeon (phlegmatic, reishi)
stun
shortbreath (melancholic)
WYRDENWOOD:
Timed:
dysentery (choleric)
masochism (coltsfoot, fmind)
worms (choleric)
bleeding (clot, chervil)
Rebound:
disloyalty (love)
bleeding (clot, chervil)
haemophilia (sanguine, yarrow)
entanglement (writhe)
WILDEWOOD:
Timed:
brokenlimb (mending)
brokenskull (arnica, mending)
succumb (reishi)
slickness (calamus)
Rebound:
brokenlimb (mending)
clumsiness (kombu)
paralysis (fbody)
prone (stand)
EDIT: And because it's relevant, the following affs count as plague/contagion:
FYI, I told the envoys the other day that we are open to updating some afflictions in the envoy reports. For example, what if you are afflicted with the worms and dysentery affliction, there is some third effect (more bleeding, damage, harder to cure them, etc.).
In other words, we're much more amenable to updating afflictions than adding new ones.
With the trans effect allowing contagion affs on asphyx damage, making one of the fumes a smart contagion afflictor might be goer?
Could even just shift the damage type of the damage one over to say 50% asphyx 50% poison rather than replacing it, so it has a chance to trigger the trans skill (which is based on enemy list, hm).
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
Comments
Were it up to me, even classleads would allow universal commenting, or preferably a system for classlead submission that made envoys into a directly elected role that served as a filter for which reports get passed through and an advocate of them on (Envoys), rather than the combination author, critic, and jury that they are now.
But yeah, I am not saying the admin should tell the players "we want something kinda like this, have at it!" More... come to them with a finished product and say, "hey, if we released this next week/month/year, would you buy it?" After all, we are their customers, and even egocentric [filtered] companies like Apple showcase products and run market testing before release.
It's the best concept of the bunch, I think. Then again, I do have a soft spot for SciFi.
In terms of the suggestion for a replacement trans ability, I don't think a %-chance of plague cures failing is too ridiculous, as long as it was not an overly high %. Like someone mentioned, all the plague afflictions together do upwards of 5k damage per tick on top of what the cyborg is putting out actively, but they're also each on a separate cure balance, so they will never last until tick without a little help. I think having the trans ability do something that causesa few of the plague affs to persist until their tick makes the skill feel much more cohesive, and does work towards a definite kill strategy.
And Hallifax is good at stacking Timewarp, Gaudiguch stacks Insanity, and Glomdoring stacks bleeding and mana damage. All of those thing advance at least two different guilds' kill methods, and assist with hindering (or in Glom's case, attrition) to boot. I see nothing wrong with two guilds in the same city benefiting from a similar strategy, particularly one that isn't as powerful as Timewarp/Insanity, nor as prevalent as Bleeding/Mana Drain..
Picking better affs that achieve a coherent goal is probably a easier step to take than re-evaluating three entire guilds.
@Urfion: The problem isn't having two guilds benefiting from a similar strategy, that's what the skillset does now. The problem would be taking something very much like Black Plague (which already works pretty well for Cacophony, right?) and giving it to them (Magnagora in this case) twice. To take another favorite example, it'd be like taking NightShadeBlues from a Harbinger and giving a copy of it that stacks, as NightShadeBlues does not to Wyrdenwoods to fight alongside Harbingers with. (No one has suggested this, no one flip out)
EDIT: Or like taking sap from druids and giving a similar but slightly different thing to -woods. If it was the same, it wouldn't stack (more druids hitting sap doesn't make the sap... sappier), but if it's a different version of the same mechanic - as is being suggested here - it would stack, or require a special exclusion, which seems like a bad idea.
If you don't want to do a BlackPlague type effect, here's my idea for affliction changes:
Passives: Vomiting (Toxic) [This cannot upgrade to Vomiting Blood], Vapors (Chemical), Worms (Taint), Black Lung (Ferrous)
Backlash: Vomiting (Filth Pump) [If already Vomiting, afflict with Vomiting Blood instead], Dysentery (Polluted Studs), Health Leach (Cranial Plate), Haemophilia (Rusted Spikes)
These remain in theme while allowing the geoborg to actually push a cure balance (purgative), so that their afflictions can actually stick around long enough to mean something and while avoiding plague affs, for stacking worries.
Actually, now that I think about it, Dizziness/Withered Limb/Black Lung/Vapors as the fumes, combined with Burst/PsiFist/Clot or PsiDagger (with Clacise/Dendroxin) might be able to pursue a decent offense in single combat while remaining in theme.
Why are you giving bleeding to geomancers? Seems kind of random.
In other words, we're much more amenable to updating afflictions than adding new ones.