Should the 'grope' emote be removed from the game?

Versalean · April 2018

Karlach · April 2018

No. Not all groping is non consensual, Lusternia is not meant to be an accurate representation of real life.

Welcome to a game where violence, slavery, torture, drug abuse and rape are all part of either/both day to day life or part of the lore.

Tremula · April 2018

Orgasm and all sorts of other emotes have already been removed from the game because of inappropriate use, but the correct response from us (the players) should be to ostracise and condemn those people who use it in such a manner - and ensure that we do not allow them any reprieve - rather than a heavy-handed removal of those things from the game.

Esoneyuna · April 2018

Poll misses a 'I don't care either way' option.

Kethaera · April 2018

The main reason I said yes is because the emote itself is very low-effort with the most obvious use of it to annoy other players. You can emote groping other people, roleplayed consensually or otherwise(though obviously I don't support non-consensual roleplay), without having a pre-defined emote. And my thinking is that pre-defined emotes should be useful, amusing, or improve quality of life in some way... I don't see this one meeting any condition.

Tremula · May 2018

If anything, I would suggest changing the use of the word 'lewd' in the pre-defined emote. Maybe the untargetted version being something along the lines of, "You grope blindly through the air before you, searching for something to hold on to."

Versalean · May 2018

If it helps any. These are taken from a google search of "definition of ----"

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Grope

verb informal

fondle (someone) for sexual pleasure roughly or clumsily, or without the person's consent.

Full disclosure - this is the secondary definition, but let's not be silly and pretend it isn't the one being conveyed in this emote [Tremula touches upon the primary definition above, HOWEVER, as they also alludes the adjective (below) helps to further disambiguate its use]

Lewd

adjective
crude and offensive in a sexual way.

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TL;DR - I'm finding it difficult to read the emote in its present form in any way that isn't an out-and-out sexual assault, and an explicit violation of HELP 15.9 in all but a very few cases. And we all know that consensual mudsexxors put way more effort into it than hitting cringey hard-coded emotes. Which really does only leave us with that other use.

Moi · May 2018

On one hand, Chesterton's fence. On the other hand, Versa's point about nobody who'd have a permissible use for it wanting to use it makes a lot of sense.

Thayan · May 2018

Karlach said:

No. Not all groping is non consensual, Lusternia is not meant to be an accurate representation of real life.

Welcome to a game where violence, slavery, torture, drug abuse and rape are all part of either/both day to day life or part of the lore.

With due respect, these things should not all be spoken of and dismissed in the same breath.

Fortunately, it's pretty unlikely that many of us have been tortured or enslaved in real life. These things may be harrowing subjects but they'll largely fall into the category of "safely abstract" and can therefore be explored without material harm caused. How questionable or otherwise it is to do so, that's another topic.

Rape, though, does not fall into that category, because some of us absolutely have suffered sexual assault. A lot more of us than anyone wants to think about or admit to, in fact. That's why these kinds of things tend to be questioned and flagged more often, because while this game isn't meant to reflect real life, there are some ways in which it absolutely can but really shouldn't.

Therefore, I'm not in favour of the grope emote. It isn't the worst thing we have, but I do think its primary uses tend to be, at best, deeply questionable. Sure, creeps could get along just fine without it and figuring out what to do about those people is about much more than deleting emotes. But it enables. It's a super quick, extra convenient way to make someone very uncomfortable and unhappy and we don't need that.

Naevari · May 2018

Versalean said:

TL;DR - I'm finding it difficult to read the emote in its present form in any way that isn't an out-and-out sexual assault, and an explicit violation of HELP 15.9 in all but a very few cases. And we all know that consensual mudsexxors put way more effort into it than hitting cringey hard-coded emotes. Which really does only leave us with that other use.

Agreed. If someone is doing some theoretically consensual and private RP that involves things that are likely triggers for a lot of people, then they can write custom emotes. Lusternian RP would retain the possibility of exploring such troubling subject matter if someone really wanted to (hopefully in a thoughtful and mature way, and hopefully privately).

All a super accessible and hard-coded emote like this accomplishes is to enable offensive trolls to be offensive trolls with way less effort.

Luce · May 2018

I'm a fan of changing it, primarily because I think that a non-sexual 'groping around' emote should probably be a default more than something lewd. If there IS a targeted version of it, it should likely focus on non- or at least not overtly sexual groping as well (ex: groping someone's bicep a la checking the gunshow, or even groping the air while scowling at someone like you're trying to give them a Vader Handshake.) Lord knows I'm furry trash and PLENTY lewd RL, but time and place. (Besides, if anyone groped Luce without prior written consent in triplicate, I'm pretty sure he'd murder them straight out.)

Plus, having several pre-defined emotes that are explicitly lewd might give the wrong impression about what kind of community we are to newcomers (and auditors), who don't understand the context they were made for.

Phoebus · May 2018

I am also in favor of changing the emote to the less objectionable meaning of grope. I have nothing against people groping each other in a lewd way in privacy with their own words, but I absolutely agree that our predefined emotes should not be anything so crude. As Luce said, it gives the wrong impression.

Karlach · May 2018

Luce said:

or even groping the air while scowling at someone like you're trying to give them a Vader Handshake

We have that actually, see CHOKE.

I far prefer the idea of a rewrite to something less overtly lewd over simply removing it.

Weiwae · May 2018

There is a higher chance of a rewrite if a full suggestion is provided. i.e. with first, second, third person defined and targeted / untargeted etc.

Luce · May 2018

1: You grope around blindly for a handhold.
3: Roark gropes around for something He can't seem to see.

1t: You reach blindly toward the sound of Ianir's voice, trying to reach Him.
2t: Roark reaches out for You, groping blindly at air.
3t: Roark reaches out toward Ianir, groping blindly at the air.

up: Roark is here, groping blindly for something.
tp: Roark is here, groping blindly in Ianir's direction.

Alaksanteri · May 2018

I do not really see any justifiable moment to ever use it. A rewrite sounds perfect.

Rasvin · May 2018

Plausible deniability. We have the ability to make custom emotes. Creating an alias/macro/trigger is relatively easy. By having a hardcoded emote, Lusternia is saying it is okay with it being used. That being said a rewrite would solve the issue as well.

Lilyin! · May 2018

Rasvin said:

Plausible deniability. We have the ability to make custom emotes. Creating an alias/macro/trigger is relatively easy. By having a hardcoded emote, Lusternia is saying it is okay with it being used. That being said a rewrite would solve the issue as well.

Lusternia also has a hard coded quest where you kill a baby. This claim that Lusternia is saying it's okay to grope people without consent is a bit reaching.

Also it's interesting that primarily male players are voting no on this.

Rasvin · May 2018

Lilyin! said:

Rasvin said:

Plausible deniability. We have the ability to make custom emotes. Creating an alias/macro/trigger is relatively easy. By having a hardcoded emote, Lusternia is saying it is okay with it being used. That being said a rewrite would solve the issue as well.

Lusternia also has a hard coded quest where you kill a baby. This claim that Lusternia is saying it's okay to grope people without consent is a bit reaching.

Also it's interesting that primarily male players are voting no on this.

I get what you are saying. However, the key difference is the baby is a denizen with no actual human player. The groping emote could be used on unwilling victums that are players which could be harassment. (I know characters kill each other in game, and we are not discussing murder.) My point is there is plenty of options players can use to replace it, so keeping it does not justify even a slight risk. Common sense does not always win in society. Unfortunately, this issue could be imposed by some judge that wants to prove a point. It is reality>logic.

Estarra · May 2018

I went ahead and changed the grope emote.

Versalean · May 2018

It's so much better than it was. Thanks, @Estarra

Deichtine · May 2018

for anyone not logged on

12420h, 10796m, 10400e, 10p Bexk<>-(+2m, 0.0%)
Untargeted:
   1st Person: You grope blindly in the air with outstretched hands
   3rd Person: Deichtine gropes blindly in the air with outstretched hands

Targetted:
   1st Person: You grope blindly in the air, bumping into Iosai.
   2nd Person: Deichtine gropes blindly in the air, bumping into you.
   3rd Person: Deichtine gropes blindly in the air, bumping into Iosai.

Shaddus · May 2018

Lilyin! said:

Rasvin said:

Plausible deniability. We have the ability to make custom emotes. Creating an alias/macro/trigger is relatively easy. By having a hardcoded emote, Lusternia is saying it is okay with it being used. That being said a rewrite would solve the issue as well.

Lusternia also has a hard coded quest where you kill a baby. This claim that Lusternia is saying it's okay to grope people without consent is a bit reaching.

Also it's interesting that primarily male players are voting no on this.

Excuse me, did you just assume and stereotype the genders of the player base?

Isune · May 2018

And because it made my eye twitch, the first and third person untargetted lines for grope now have periods at the end

Luce · May 2018

Lilyin! said:

Also it's interesting that primarily male players are voting no on this.

Hey now, I qualified my 'no' as being 'rewrite, don't remove', and provided a suggestion for a replacement. =(

Arix · May 2018

There was no 'I don't give a **** either way' option so I voted no, but its not an emote I've ever used willingly because it's pretty dumb. Having said that, most of the people that I've seen use the emote are female characters but that doesn't mean much in the bigger picture of things

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Should the 'grope' emote be removed from the game?

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