Event PK and RP

Vatul · September 2019

Maligorn said:

Nocht said:

While big mechanical changes are great to discuss, I'm very interested in any changes you guys think we can do on a smaller scale to make things more fun for everyone.

Disable smob raiding. It's not really a big mechanical change or even a strain on coding resources. Removes the onus on players feeling like they can't act due to retribution, saves a fucking SOUL CRUSHING process to raise them up and recharge your shield (or god forbid, rezz your shield), addresses the discrepancy between Spheres/Fleshpots and Avatars (Glomdoring and Serenwilde can basically ignore the possibility of smob interaction happening on their planes).

Alternatively, make recovery a lot less soul crushing.

Disable it and replace it with something that we can use to create retribution. Have it be a constant battle we can do through said system. It can be something that focuses on something new for each cosmic plane and even ethereal plane that could create a really cool plot line and a bunch of quests that could create more conflicts that are healthier.

For example: Demons vs. Cherubim battles, one of them wins the battle, enables a brief chance for smob raids (without the less soul crushing, grueling two week long repair).

Nyana · September 2019

Nocht said:

With regards to announcing the time on Twitter, we know there are players who are invested in the story and would want to be present when it progresses. It would seem unfair to expect them to just linger around an entire weekend in hopes of catching it. As much as I love Lusternia, I definitely don't have that time, myself. Trying to obfuscate when something will happen in hopes that certain people just won't be there seems like a poor solution to me, personally. How strongly do you feel that would help?

I don't think twitter announcements are a bad idea, it's more of a combination of factors and the way some people play events. I would suggest in-game announcements to order members only, but I also know it's hard to make time clear to everyone while staying IC.

Vatul said:
If you really want in-depth RP, engage with people outside of a situation where you know you can dominate, engage meaningfully, like Lief and Maylea. Hell, I would love to be engaged meaningfully for PVP that is backed by true RP.

So much this. My favorite memories of pk are not the forgettable hoards of one side vs the other and oh hey I happened to get the last hit in on that one dude. They're when the conflict was developed over time, or when it was personal. If I can't win, I'd at least like to earn my deaths.

Xenthos · September 2019

@vatul : I think a lot of us here are trying to have this conversation without vitriol. I am not entirely sure what the point of your post is, because if I break it down and reply to it point by point we're not going to get anywhere. I disagree with how you phrase a lot of what you said. It takes a very simplistic view of "our side" and tries to pigeonhole us into your impression of what we are doing (case in point, your entire paragraph accusing us of lacking empathy).

Asking for people to put aside vitriol works both ways here, it is hard to ask others to do so when you lace it into your own request for others to not.

Enya · September 2019

To illustrate this, the parable of the totems (from my point of view).

In ye olde totem mechanic, cities would always win against forests, and ANY slight against cities could be met with pretty much unstoppable "raids" against prime forest territories. You raided Cosmic? We'll wait and chop your totems/hit ethereal. You attacked a city member while they were hunting in a pk free zone? Well we'll wait until you're not paying attention and chop totems. You influenced out an area one of our city members was influencing? We'll chop totems. You retaliate against us chopping totems? We'll chop more totems. Repeat this paragraph replacing "chop totems" with "light fires".

If someone wanted to press the point, there was ALWAYS an escalation to chopping more and more totems, spending more and more time on Ethereal which lacked the tools to really shut people out in the way that some of the other planes could. So escalation never favored the forests. Eventually that means that 2/6ths of the game is playing a different ball game than everyone else. Forests (more specifically Serenwilde) needed to carefully consider every action, every one off mini-raid, because they were uniquely vulnerable to extreme retaliation if someone felt like it. Even if no one who particularly felt like that kind of hard ball style was in power, it's a sword of damocles situation, where at any time even a new character could take up a crusade and cause immense grief as long as their org looked the other way. Which would inevitably happen for a while.

Lo and behold when vines came out and everyone was ostensibly playing on the same terms, it was suddenly too much. Far too griefy.

With that in mind, re-read this thread. As long as there's this threat of escalation to the point of domination, the game's mechanics are borked. Players will never agree on the same set of events, because some of them exist with this extra layer to process on top of standard game considerations. Players who have been around for years especially have a set of expectations baked in of how conflict events as they exist ultimately end for them, baked in from years of getting burnt.

We NEED real raid mechanics so that one player hitting an org ineffectually doesn't snowball up into decimation, because that only leads to players realizing (correctly?) that their only other option is to just lay down and not participate so that they aren't punished.

Regat · September 2019

Maligorn said:

Nocht said:

While big mechanical changes are great to discuss, I'm very interested in any changes you guys think we can do on a smaller scale to make things more fun for everyone.

Disable smob raiding. It's not really a big mechanical change or even a strain on coding resources. Removes the onus on players feeling like they can't act due to retribution, saves a fucking SOUL CRUSHING process to raise them up and recharge your shield (or god forbid, rezz your shield), addresses the discrepancy between Spheres/Fleshpots and Avatars (Glomdoring and Serenwilde can basically ignore the possibility of smob interaction happening on their planes).

Alternatively, make recovery a lot less soul crushing.

I'm not a fan of disabling smob raiding. Would it be possible to maybe reduce the effect slaying them has on an org? Nobody is running out of power any time soon unless someone gets VA-happy.

Reduce the essence needed to raise an smob. Reduce their difficulty slightly, because no mob should be able to spam an aoe attack every time it gets hit or have a random chance to heal itself. It should be possible for a dedicated group of fighters to kill an smob, and it should be both possible and easier for an org to raise their smob.

Give each org a non-killable essence converter. And no, I don't mean a mini smob with a guard stack on it.

If we can get this "lock out" mechanic, lock out an org from being accessed off-prime. Once the raid is concluded, lock the planes so their members can clear essence and raise the mob. Let's say we kill....Japhiel, then we wipe out enough times to say "yeah, we're done". Afterwards, Celestia/Water are locked out, nobody from a non-Celest org can enter them by any means for X amount of hours. After X hours, the planes unlock again. Celestians can go to other planes per the norm to gather essence, but nothing can keep them from harvesting their own essence.

Enya · September 2019

Another note, some folks will constantly try to make anything that touches on this topic a referendum on either their personal behavior or the behavior of others. In the end this just derails conversation, either by grinding it to a halt or because it will become "too personal" and the thread will be locked. Beware.

Maligorn · September 2019

To be clear, I won't be satisfied with any iteration of smob mechanics unless Spheres are brought up to supernal/dl or Avatar strength. I don't care if they have to fuse into 3 crystal planets. It's easy enough to justify and would give Hallifax (and Gaudiguch, with fleshpots) some much needed security.

Anybody who knows me knows I'm pretty inflexible about this - I know it's not helpful to certain admin but I still hold out hope that this will one day actually happen and I don't have to fuckin' worry about my fragile crystal babies anymore.

Vatul · September 2019

Xenthos said:

@vatul : I think a lot of us here are trying to have this conversation without vitriol. I am not entirely sure what the point of your post is, because if I break it down and reply to it point by point we're not going to get anywhere. I disagree with how you phrase a lot of what you said. It takes a very simplistic view of "our side" and tries to pigeonhole us into your impression of what we are doing (case in point, your entire paragraph accusing us of lacking empathy).
Asking for people to put aside vitriol works both ways here, it is hard to ask others to do so when you lace it into your own request for others to not.

I only stated facts from my perspective. That's not vitriol, that's the experience of what I have been through. Again, more of my perspective. I'm sorry if that is viewed as hostile, but it is not directed to you personally. If you take a look back at my post, my points were:

0) Our community cannot support you guys raiding with 16 people

1) Look at our perspective without thinking its offensive and an insult, try to view yourselves disembodied and consider how it feels to be on this side when people in general make posts that feel vitriolic or condescending (see 3).

2) Justification in this instance in the event was thin, here is the evidence of why I didn't like it. Why it felt bad, icky, and frankly unfun.

3) People (not you) are being vitriolic, and going after people for the sake of doing so. This is a danger to our community, and this type of behavior in raiding and outside of it is bad.

4) Real RP justification, like those you suggested (ie trying to save the eggs) is better for us in general. This includes PVP, see Nyana's response to one small quote of my previous post.

If you disagree with that, I respect that. But that's still my perspective.

Enya · September 2019

Again, that to me is a sign of different expectations based on material conditions related to escalation. Hallifax fundamentally has more to lose by escalating than say... Magnagora. So if Mag has 15 vs Hallifax's 5, it's not the same as Hallifax 15 vs. Magnagora 5.

Just leaving the way raids work up to "organic reactions" (the free hand?) doesn't account for this stuff.

Regat · September 2019

I only stated facts from my perspective. That's not vitriol, that's the experience of what I have been through. Again, more of my perspective. I'm sorry if that is viewed as hostile, but it is not directed to you personally. If you take a look back at my post, my points were:

0) Our community cannot support you guys raiding with 16 people

What's an acceptable amount to raid with? How do we know? How often does this change?

1) Look at our perspective without thinking its offensive and an insult, try to view yourselves disembodied and consider how it feels to be on this side when people in general make posts that feel vitriolic or condescending (see 3).

No actual reply to this, it's a non sequitur.

2) Justification in this instance in the event was thin, here is the evidence of why I didn't like it. Why it felt bad, icky, and frankly unfun.

How do you quantify justification? Do we have to ask permission to retaliate?

3) People (not you) are being vitriolic, and going after people for the sake of doing so. This is a danger to our community, and this type of behavior in raiding and outside of it is bad.

yes, on both sides.

4) Real RP justification, like those you suggested (ie trying to save the eggs) is better for us in general. This includes PVP, see Nyana's response to one small quote of my previous post.
If you disagree with that, I respect that. But that's still my perspective.

Agree.

Enya · September 2019

Would it be fair to characterize your response overall as "The extant system is the best possible/probable?" That we won't be able to quantify what a "fair raid" is and therefore can't really create a fair system to manage raiding.

Esei · September 2019

Reading through this thread, and noting that several people have agreed to want to reach out and RP through some of this, why don't we actually just... do that? Find a time and a place, or notify another (most likely IC-wise), and go through with it? As someone who was at the event, I realize that there wasn't much of an RP opportunity during it, but now that it's over (for now)...

Gurashi · September 2019

Esei said:

Reading through this thread, and noting that several people have agreed to want to reach out and RP through some of this, why don't we actually just... do that? Find a time and a place, or notify another (most likely IC-wise), and go through with it? As someone who was at the event, I realize that there wasn't much of an RP opportunity during it, but now that it's over (for now)...

*spams the RPWHO ON command*

Esei · September 2019

Gurashi said:

Esei said:

Reading through this thread, and noting that several people have agreed to want to reach out and RP through some of this, why don't we actually just... do that? Find a time and a place, or notify another (most likely IC-wise), and go through with it? As someone who was at the event, I realize that there wasn't much of an RP opportunity during it, but now that it's over (for now)...

*spams the RPWHO ON command*

Same here honestly! I'm just really new to the game (about a week's worth of playtime) and reaching out to non-Gloms is intimidating.

Edit: not to mention my only real interaction with non-Gloms (and truthfully non-alliance) has been PVP like timequakes and the event. The only worthwhile RP-related alliance thing that's happened to me is when Tridemon gave me a painting of myself during a domoth upgrade, I think.

Lief · September 2019

Esei said:

Gurashi said:

Esei said:

Reading through this thread, and noting that several people have agreed to want to reach out and RP through some of this, why don't we actually just... do that? Find a time and a place, or notify another (most likely IC-wise), and go through with it? As someone who was at the event, I realize that there wasn't much of an RP opportunity during it, but now that it's over (for now)...

*spams the RPWHO ON command*

Same here honestly! I'm just really new to the game (about a week's worth of playtime) and reaching out to non-Gloms is intimidating.

Edit: not to mention my only real interaction with non-Gloms (and truthfully non-alliance) has been PVP like timequakes and the event. The only worthwhile RP-related alliance thing that's happened to me is when Tridemon gave me a painting of myself during a domoth upgrade, I think.

My letter doesn't count? :'(

(Kidding! But really. Lief is in Some Way right now and I'm 100% game for more RP.)

Nelras · September 2019

On event announcements: Please keep these. It means that people who might have been doing other things can make plans to be online if an event is going to occur which might interest them.

On smob raids: This one is more difficult. Thematically, I feel as if it would be a big loss to get rid of these, however the mechanics are not supported by the state of the game as it is currently. For the attackers, an smob raid can be one of those big things which shows that they can actually make a difference in the world. Mechanically, however, it means that they were able to gather sufficient numbers at a time when the defenders didn't have them. Furthermore, what should be an interesting occurrence for all involved results in what can only be described as a punishment for the losing side (i.e. the one that already had less people).

Rather than removing smob raids entirely, I feel as if they should be larger, and less common. Ideally, as I would see it at least, an smob raid would be a form of event in which the end result is not fixed. Like any event, it would have lasting narrative (rather than mechanical) consequences, and it would also have the attention of one or more of the divine, to ensure that it remains fun for all involved. There would also be chances for those with lower numbers to do something about the raid, which might involve more things than just direct pvp.

Assuming that a major rework is not possible however, I would say that smob raids are more of a negative than a positive in their current state. It would be a shame to lose them, but it would be a bigger shame to keep them as they are currently.

Esei · September 2019

Lief said:

Esei said:

Gurashi said:

Esei said:

Reading through this thread, and noting that several people have agreed to want to reach out and RP through some of this, why don't we actually just... do that? Find a time and a place, or notify another (most likely IC-wise), and go through with it? As someone who was at the event, I realize that there wasn't much of an RP opportunity during it, but now that it's over (for now)...

*spams the RPWHO ON command*

Same here honestly! I'm just really new to the game (about a week's worth of playtime) and reaching out to non-Gloms is intimidating.

Edit: not to mention my only real interaction with non-Gloms (and truthfully non-alliance) has been PVP like timequakes and the event. The only worthwhile RP-related alliance thing that's happened to me is when Tridemon gave me a painting of myself during a domoth upgrade, I think.

My letter doesn't count? :'(

(Kidding! But really. Lief is in Some Way right now and I'm 100% game for more RP.)

Feel free to reach out to me then! :P I (probably) won't scream.

Esoneyuna · September 2019

Vatul said:

Xenthos said:

@vatul : I think a lot of us here are trying to have this conversation without vitriol. I am not entirely sure what the point of your post is, because if I break it down and reply to it point by point we're not going to get anywhere. I disagree with how you phrase a lot of what you said. It takes a very simplistic view of "our side" and tries to pigeonhole us into your impression of what we are doing (case in point, your entire paragraph accusing us of lacking empathy).
Asking for people to put aside vitriol works both ways here, it is hard to ask others to do so when you lace it into your own request for others to not.

I only stated facts from my perspective. That's not vitriol, that's the experience of what I have been through. Again, more of my perspective. I'm sorry if that is viewed as hostile, but it is not directed to you personally. If you take a look back at my post, my points were:
0) Our community cannot support you guys raiding with 16 people
1) Look at our perspective without thinking its offensive and an insult, try to view yourselves disembodied and consider how it feels to be on this side when people in general make posts that feel vitriolic or condescending (see 3).
2) Justification in this instance in the event was thin, here is the evidence of why I didn't like it. Why it felt bad, icky, and frankly unfun.
3) People (not you) are being vitriolic, and going after people for the sake of doing so. This is a danger to our community, and this type of behavior in raiding and outside of it is bad.
4) Real RP justification, like those you suggested (ie trying to save the eggs) is better for us in general. This includes PVP, see Nyana's response to one small quote of my previous post.
If you disagree with that, I respect that. But that's still my perspective.

It is however strange that your perspective seems to forget to recall when the tables are turned and instead just spew all the fault one way and expect the other side to just be better cause you are on the receiving end. And as long as you are going to go it is the other sides fault cause they have no empathy and you don't look at all the sides of the coin you are not going to receive the result you are hoping for, opposite in fact.

Vatul · September 2019

Esoneyuna said:

Vatul said:

Xenthos said:

@vatul : I think a lot of us here are trying to have this conversation without vitriol. I am not entirely sure what the point of your post is, because if I break it down and reply to it point by point we're not going to get anywhere. I disagree with how you phrase a lot of what you said. It takes a very simplistic view of "our side" and tries to pigeonhole us into your impression of what we are doing (case in point, your entire paragraph accusing us of lacking empathy).
Asking for people to put aside vitriol works both ways here, it is hard to ask others to do so when you lace it into your own request for others to not.

I only stated facts from my perspective. That's not vitriol, that's the experience of what I have been through. Again, more of my perspective. I'm sorry if that is viewed as hostile, but it is not directed to you personally. If you take a look back at my post, my points were:
0) Our community cannot support you guys raiding with 16 people
1) Look at our perspective without thinking its offensive and an insult, try to view yourselves disembodied and consider how it feels to be on this side when people in general make posts that feel vitriolic or condescending (see 3).
2) Justification in this instance in the event was thin, here is the evidence of why I didn't like it. Why it felt bad, icky, and frankly unfun.
3) People (not you) are being vitriolic, and going after people for the sake of doing so. This is a danger to our community, and this type of behavior in raiding and outside of it is bad.
4) Real RP justification, like those you suggested (ie trying to save the eggs) is better for us in general. This includes PVP, see Nyana's response to one small quote of my previous post.
If you disagree with that, I respect that. But that's still my perspective.

It is however strange that your perspective seems to forget to recall when the tables are turned and instead just spew all the fault one way and expect the other side to just be better cause you are on the receiving end. And as long as you are going to go it is the other sides fault cause they have no empathy and you don't look at all the sides of the coin you are not going to receive the result you are hoping for, opposite in fact.

I am very aware that there are times that we have the advantage. I am never discounting those times by speaking about my perspective in this instance. You are right, that there was a gap in my commentary not mentioning that. However, that does not discount that after the justification ran out to do the needful for retribution against Maylea, in this one instance, people persisted beyond that.

Esoneyuna · September 2019

Pysynne said:

There also seems to be a serious case of misinformation here. People keep saying "this was in retaliation to a glomdoring raid" No, it wasn't. Xenthos was "raiding" Maylea's god realm. When I came in he immediately took off, I called him out on it, he came back in, spammed timeslip instead of fight, ran off again (I will assume this was when Pheebe attacked the spriggan of note), then they all returned and went kill mode. At the time I was not aware of Pheebe's actions so, by my perception, Xenthos ran away from PVP, not uncommon, and came back with a group of 6+ to kill me.

This didn't start because of a Glom raid. The "glom raid" was 1 person killing 1 mob, to get Xenthos out of Maylea's realm.

Following this, shallow justification, Xenthos spam scried me. The moment I entered Hifarae, he ran full bore there to the Temple. I had no intention of entering at the time as I was doing a quest, but decided I would go clean up the Wyrd. Xenthos scried me again, saw me in the Temple, called in the posse.

It's not like he was farscouting either, he was actively scrying me alone, so please, tell me how this all started based off a "glom raid". Anyways, I logged off because the event was still TWO HOURS AWAY at this time and it was clear that Glom was looking to just troll and make sure that they were the only ones in the event that could participate, a common occurrence when Xenthos meets Events. I logged on again against my better judgement later, and was immediately scried by Xenthos, multiple times in a short span, meaning he was once again looking to troll. I told him to piss off, called him a piece of shit, I stand by that statement, and then the rest of his posse started scrying. I logged off again. I am not about to partake in an experience of BS for the enjoyment of Glomdoring. So, please, go on about how they are the good guys in this and just were really excited to have an event THAT HAD NOT EVEN STARTED

Tell me about how raiding = PVP when the raider just runs away. Tell me how it was all about some "glom raid" that caused all of this.

I need something to take to the bathroom and wipe my arse with anyways.

Oh come off it, I was actually the one that suggested going after Pheebe who went into Maylea's realm after killing a fae. -I- not Xenthos encouraged people to go after her there. Xenthos just ran with it. My assumption was that the fae was needed for a ritual and I wanted to interrupt it, thats it, all my fault. I had no idea he had been hunting Maylea's realm nor do I really care OOCly, god realms get hunted all the time. There is a reason I used to spend hours influencing Mysrai's and Lisaera's temple beings, I found the sneaky raiders to be great motivation for that, and yes that is my own thing I don't expect others to think the same.

After the initial assault I left the Glom force cause it was obvious they didn't need help with their event. Except for the demon lord thing. Once again I was a proponent for demon lord killing, I have been pushing it for over a rl year but we never had the force or something else came up. There are various IC reasons Esoneyuna wants that, there are various OOC reasons I as a player wanted to do it none were to hurt players. I have great memories of being on the losing side of supernal raids and raising them, and this was before the cooldowns. Again I liked the trying to raise them while enemies tried to kill me, having some wonderful times with citymates. So at no point came it in my mind I want to grief away players, killing demon lords is a challenge that has been dangling for a long time.

And when people tell me hey this is a bit much right now (not literally) or I see we are doing it to much I am also someone that might suggest lets not do this but instead do that. I have done it several times when defiling Thax shrines came up (surprise right!). I have done it repeatedly when killing spheres came up. It is why I suggested letting people get their dailies in timequakes. But honestly this consideration rarely gets returned which is why I tend to repeat myself in looking at both side of the coin or do as you want them to do on to you.

Both sides are equally guilty of doing things the other side feels is griefy, I am confident in the majority of the cases the player is not out to hurt a player but just trying to play the game. Some people like RP, others like PVP, others like being sneaky untouchable mosquitos and some like just rebuilding and KBOing against great odds. Each have their own ideals, each have their days it is to much and they need a break, each has its day and they go a bit overboard. Instead of assuming the org knows what you want, communicate not just insult and rant. And also yes allow that sometimes you just have to ignore crap that day.

Minkahmet · September 2019

Alexandria said:

Minkahmet said:

This again....

I know it's hard to believe, but sometimes, people don't always have the same opinions! Perhaps we could see how the discussion goes instead of throwing out snark.

This is not some assumption you're making that this is a snark. It's more of a why even are we doing this again for the umpteenth time.

Enya · September 2019

Minkahmet said:

Alexandria said:

Minkahmet said:

This again....

I know it's hard to believe, but sometimes, people don't always have the same opinions! Perhaps we could see how the discussion goes instead of throwing out snark.

This is not some assumption you're making that this is a snark. It's more of a why even are we doing this again for the umpteenth time.

Because nothing was done to materially fix it, and it continues to be a problem.

Pheebe · September 2019

Minkahmet said:

Alexandria said:

Minkahmet said:

This again....

I know it's hard to believe, but sometimes, people don't always have the same opinions! Perhaps we could see how the discussion goes instead of throwing out snark.

This is not some assumption you're making that this is a snark. It's more of a why even are we doing this again for the umpteenth time.

Considering most of your interactions with “the other side” consists of shouting condescending taunts, it isn’t unimaginable that people wouldn’t give you the benefit of the doubt.

Minkahmet · September 2019

Regat said:

As an aside:

[[[Maylea expressed her grief by killing them - after they successfully killed Feyr - because they thought Feyr/Lief.]]]

I killed Feyr on prime. I killed him because he declared me on prime and attacked me, and kept trying to deathprophesy me. I don't hold it against Maylea for killing me whether I had killed Feyr or not, because actions have consequences and life isn't always supposed to be fair.

That was well spoken truth about life isn't always suppose to be fair.

Nyana · September 2019

Minkahmet said:

Regat said:

As an aside:

[[[Maylea expressed her grief by killing them - after they successfully killed Feyr - because they thought Feyr/Lief.]]]

I killed Feyr on prime. I killed him because he declared me on prime and attacked me, and kept trying to deathprophesy me. I don't hold it against Maylea for killing me whether I had killed Feyr or not, because actions have consequences and life isn't always supposed to be fair.

That was well spoken truth about life isn't always suppose to be fair.

Um... ok. This isn't real life. Games are expected to be fair, especially games with some expectation that the players might pay money to enjoy playing them. It being "free to play" doesn't mean there isn't still that expectation.

Minkahmet · September 2019

Xenthos said:

Kalnid said:

Xenthos said:
Glomdoring's been in an event desert for RL years, so of course we're going to show up when there's something in the offing (I think our last Glom related event was guildhalls opening).
This is incorrect.

Which one am I overlooking? It is quite possible that I am, but even Ascension events the last couple of years largely skipped Glom (excepting for being "part of the Basin in general"). We had the greev and old guilds dying, we had Baeroc Spineson 2 Ascensions ago who showed up, did a tapestry, and peaced out (we are still waiting for the resolution on that), and we had new guildhalls, to my recollection.
In other thoughts: Would anyone be seriously dismayed if the SMOB raiding just went away entirely? It has come up before. I personally have no objections. The time to fix it (and effort) is way out of proportion to what it takes to kill them in general.

Personally, I'd rather see the Demon Lords/Supernals strength being reduced somewhat, but still harder to kill than Fleshpots/Spheres honestly. The game clearly doesn't support the pbase for it and I think it would promote more Celest/Mag conflict considering our own divine rp conflicts that are just not there and in a drought. If anything, if it doesn't promote conflict from Mag, it would definitely do so from Celest. (My char tries to encourage his citizens to crusade against Nil at times, but not always.)

Nyana · September 2019

Minkahmet said:

If anything, if it doesn't promote conflict from Mag, it would definitely do so from Celest. (My char tries to encourage his citizens to crusade against Nil at times, but not always.)

In other words, Celest would be able to grief Mag, and Mag wouldn't bother to fight back, because that would invite more griefing, which... defeats the entire purpose of a "conflict system". One sided conflicts are not a game, they are bullying. That's not a solution.

Minkahmet · September 2019

Nyana said:

Minkahmet said:

If anything, if it doesn't promote conflict from Mag, it would definitely do so from Celest. (My char tries to encourage his citizens to crusade against Nil at times, but not always.)

In other words, Celest would be able to grief Mag, and Mag wouldn't bother to fight back, because that would invite more griefing, which... defeats the entire purpose of a "conflict system". One sided conflicts are not a game, they are bullying. That's not a solution.

What? That's not griefing. That's more of an issue with Mag not willing or wanting to involve themselves in a conflict system. The players control if they want to engage in anything or not and that's a problematic mentality that Mag will have to fix. I mean, if YOU don't want to defend or stand up for what you believe in of an org, then sure, sit back and let someone else do the defending.

Enya · September 2019

Griefing or not griefing is not a very useful way to think of things.

Again, having one side that self selects as being willing to go to extremes of endurance to steamroll big conflict events becomes a problem if the game design allows that to control everything. Because of the free escalation of conflict, whichever side is willing to push things all the way wins EVERY combat even minor ones that the other side finds fun, because they can always hold "participate in this and we'll push it to the end" over that side's head. This was the big problem with totems, and spreading fires - it was just too uneven and uncontrolled. NOT griefy, or "Evil" or "wrong" or whatever, but bad for the game absolutely.

Minkahmet · September 2019

Nyana said:

Minkahmet said:

Regat said:

As an aside:

[[[Maylea expressed her grief by killing them - after they successfully killed Feyr - because they thought Feyr/Lief.]]]

I killed Feyr on prime. I killed him because he declared me on prime and attacked me, and kept trying to deathprophesy me. I don't hold it against Maylea for killing me whether I had killed Feyr or not, because actions have consequences and life isn't always supposed to be fair.

That was well spoken truth about life isn't always suppose to be fair.

Um... ok. This isn't real life. Games are expected to be fair, especially games with some expectation that the players might pay money to enjoy playing them. It being "free to play" doesn't mean there isn't still that expectation.

Right exactly, it isn't real life. Games are NOT EXEMPT either. If that was the case, we wouldn't have all the balance issues, over-sensitive complaining, rp issues amongst other UNFAIR advantages and disadvantages that are clearly commented on in this forum or any other game forum because why? They're not always fair and you'll be wise to understand that expecting it is a fool's errand even if you are paying to play.

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