The state of Aeonics

Xenthos · December 2019

Maligorn said:

Xenthos said:

That would be a little easier if the Institute "burst" skills did not last so long. Most other bursts have a pretty short window that the person can highlight to avoid-- Institute's just keeps going, more than long enough for power to refresh so it can all just be recast. It's kinda hard to call that burst, imo.
Note: I do not know how the Illuminati side of that works re: duration. If it is similar then I absolutely think that it should be viewed in the same light.
Edit: This post was in reply to Maligorn.

Counterpoint: Shadowdancer shadow twists last a long time too. They were finally nerfed after so long of an SD just being able to sit on Final twist for as long as they wanted (til the next dawn, more accurately speaking), but you're in danger of dying to Unravel for a long time still, similar to Institute if you want to draw that conclusion.

Which makes sense to me, personally, as Researchers and SDs have historically worked the same way to get their kills. Shatterplex vs final twist in the past, aeonlock into dead featuring strongly now.

Shadowtwist lasts a while, but the burst does not begin until you actually final twist. Sitting on the shadow doesn't progress anything. The Institute one just keeps going and going and going... which is why I contest it really being considered a burst at all. It is just constant RNG spam until the numbers align and you are dead. Your choice is to either run and not engage (because by the time the things wear off, the Institute has full power again), or hope the RNG stays in your favour.

Alexandria · December 2019

I recognise that generally these things are balanced around people who know a heck of a lot more about anything combat related than me, but RNG as a strategy doesn't sound like much of a strategy at all.

Xenthos · December 2019

Alexandria said:

I recognise that generally these things are balanced around people who know a heck of a lot more about anything combat related than me, but RNG as a strategy doesn't sound like much of a strategy at all.

That would be why I brought it up. It isn't fun on the receiving side (more so because it is tilted in the Institute's favour), but I can't imagine it being greatly appreciated even on the researcher's side because it is RNG and thus a lot harder to plan around. There was a nod to this earlier from one of them saying that they wouldn't mind things being less RNG as well.

Alexandria · December 2019

Okay, thanks. I guess I misread - it looked like you were saying it was better than shadowtwist because of it.

Xenthos · December 2019

Alexandria said:

Okay, thanks. I guess I misread - it looked like you were saying it was better than shadowtwist because of it.

I am contesting the comparison to twist, because one is actually a burst and the other is a constant RNG spam. "Better" is subjective, of course.

Fixing durations and RNG to make it more bursty would be a good thing, since you would then be able to be more strategic with it. Incidentally, this would also probably involve it looking a lot more like final twist, but that is more because of FT being a good example of a burst mechanic than one being stronger than the other.

Parhelion · December 2019

Maligorn said:

ectoplasm from their nose

This has actually been changed to apparently give mental afflictions instead of ectoplasm.

Feoragan · December 2019

Maligorn said:

Xenthos said:

That would be a little easier if the Institute "burst" skills did not last so long. Most other bursts have a pretty short window that the person can highlight to avoid-- Institute's just keeps going, more than long enough for power to refresh so it can all just be recast. It's kinda hard to call that burst, imo.
Note: I do not know how the Illuminati side of that works re: duration. If it is similar then I absolutely think that it should be viewed in the same light.
Edit: This post was in reply to Maligorn.

Counterpoint: Shadowdancer shadow twists last a long time too. They were finally nerfed after so long of an SD just being able to sit on Final twist for as long as they wanted (til the next dawn, more accurately speaking), but you're in danger of dying to Unravel for a long time still, similar to Institute if you want to draw that conclusion.

Which makes sense to me, personally, as Researchers and SDs have historically worked the same way to get their kills. Shatterplex vs final twist in the past, aeonlock into dead featuring strongly now.

Yes, and Shadowdancers have been heavily nerfed because of how silly they used to be (and then nerfed more for dumb reasons).

Shadowdancers and Institute are absolutely nothing alike in how kills work.

Shadowdancer is 8 power and 8 balances of doing nothing but mana damage then your ninth balance is gradual unravelling death unless your enemy waits it out for a little while.

Institute is entering the battle, spending your 10 power on spells (You don't REALLY need them all to be honest) and then just whacking your enemy with shit, like that massive timewarp burst from your weapon. Meanwhile your gems all actively build towards your enemy's death.

Let's be honest, if you really wanted to, you could abuse the hell out of how Aeonics works in a way that other skills would struggle. It'd need some organisation but it'd be spicy and would probably result in near instant nerfs.

Shadows untwist after about 15? seconds and do absolutely nothing while you're sitting on it. For 8 power and 8 balances, it largely does nothing.

Enya · December 2019

Feoragan said:

Let's be honest, if you really wanted to, you could abuse the hell out of how Aeonics works in a way that other skills would struggle. It'd need some organisation but it'd be spicy and would probably result in near instant nerfs.

You really buried the lede on this thread asking for Aeonics nerfs: if you have some combos that would require instant nerfs, out with them. Be specific.

Feoragan · December 2019

Enya said:

Feoragan said:

Let's be honest, if you really wanted to, you could abuse the hell out of how Aeonics works in a way that other skills would struggle. It'd need some organisation but it'd be spicy and would probably result in near instant nerfs.

You really buried the lede on this thread asking for Aeonics nerfs: if you have some combos that would require instant nerfs, out with them. Be specific.

2 competent Hallifaxians would be a pretty deadly combo tbh. I'm not going to tell people how to break stuff if they somehow haven't already realised how. Even if it only lasts for a week (it'll last for months) it'll still be annoying.

Enya · December 2019

Feoragan said:

Enya said:

Feoragan said:

Let's be honest, if you really wanted to, you could abuse the hell out of how Aeonics works in a way that other skills would struggle. It'd need some organisation but it'd be spicy and would probably result in near instant nerfs.

You really buried the lede on this thread asking for Aeonics nerfs: if you have some combos that would require instant nerfs, out with them. Be specific.

2 competent Hallifaxians would be a pretty deadly combo tbh. I'm not going to tell people how to break stuff if they somehow haven't already realised how. Even if it only lasts for a week (it'll last for months) it'll still be annoying.

Ah so you're just making it up.

Orael · December 2019

Feoragan said:

2 competent Hallifaxians would be a pretty deadly combo tbh. I'm not going to tell people how to break stuff if they somehow haven't already realised how. Even if it only lasts for a week (it'll last for months) it'll still be annoying.

In the 3 or so years since I made the jump to admin, I've seen quite a few players make claims such as the ones being made here. In general, if I'm not buying it, I typically say something along the lines of 'you may be right, but I just don't see that happening. Feel free to prove me wrong though.' This is one of those situations.

If there really are combos and situations with Institute that would require 'instant nerfs', then I encourage you to demonstrate them and show how it can be done and how powerful they really can be.

I do think Institute it strong, easily comparable in strength to SD at the least, but I don't believe they're a burst class and are rather an attrition class. Yes, they're faster in groups than solo but we made group considerations when implementing them, such as insight only working for the caster and the afflictions they give.

I'm always open to constructive discussion and adjustments (it's an ever-evolving game, new tricks and tweaks open up new avenues of stuff all the time, many of them unforeseen) but we definitely need to make sure that our concerns and points are rooted in facts and not just opinion or theory. Concerns about RNG are fine (that's the nature of RNG, it's pretty fickle) but I think it adds an extra element to the strategy. It's much more linear with known values, both offensively and defensively.

Maligorn · December 2019

Luck is a Gaudiguchian construct that must be eradicated at all costs.

Kalnid · December 2019

science fact:
crystals are lame

Keegan · December 2019

(I also think Institute are an attrition class. If you honestly wanted to reduce the duration of timeechoes you'd have to move it to like 1p or 0p, maybe even free balance ala homunc, and give them many other ways to actively proc Oracle, else they'd never kill. Timeechoes and Oracle are both baseline for getting a kill at all and you will only ever achieve it after having a person under your various debuffs [as well as maintaining insight]. You get all your debuffs and insight up, work to actively maintain oracle, wait on RNG to deal you a hand with Aeon and then, and only then, do you really have kill potential. It's very much a waiting game and requires your opponent to make mistakes for you to capitalise on)

Keegan · December 2019

Also, as one of the few people who has been using the skillset since its rework, there are very, very, very many instances where I've used my entire combination and done my best to progress the method and never seen them peak above moderately timewarped. I'm sure Illuminati suffers from the same on occasion, but it's not as simple as I walk in, put debuffs on you, and twiddle my thumbs.

Edit: Also, regarding 1v1 combat, you really don't have an excuse to die unless you're also progressing your own kill method and taking risks. If you played 100% safe you shouldn't really die except to very few classes and mostly because you haven't used escape mechanics early enough.

Raimari · December 2019

Feoragan said:

2 competent Hallifaxians would be a pretty deadly combo tbh. I'm not going to tell people how to break stuff if they somehow haven't already realised how. Even if it only lasts for a week (it'll last for months) it'll still be annoying.

And 2 SDs is a deadly combo if used well. In fact SD on its own is still very strong, when used well. Not sure how it using a fraction more power is relevant; if they die, they die. Power is easily gotten back. Absolute parity is an awful thing to have in a game, especially one like this.

Keegan · December 2019

Feoragan said:

2 competent Hallifaxians would be a pretty deadly combo tbh. I'm not going to tell people how to break stuff if they somehow haven't already realised how. Even if it only lasts for a week (it'll last for months) it'll still be annoying.

By all means, feel free to move to Halli and educate me on Institute.

Dys · December 2019

Illuminati sort of needs a burst at the start to get over a hump and maintain enough tempinsanity to slow the target's slush curing from 1s to 1.5s, then it's a long fragile slog to build more tempinsanity at the same time as dealing enough mental affs to power badluck. I find doing both is really hard and needs every balance. If it's working it snowballs but that's RNG dependent. Eyesnare seems to trigger around 3-5% of the time, morrible deals tempinsanity 2/3rds of the time, a casting of greywhispers might tick every 4.5s (yay) or every 8s (boo), chaosaura triggers 50% of the time, etc.

Institute having tools to get over the hump is why I'm jealous of ChronicLoop + Oracle. I know there are counters plus it's even more power. Steam balance is naturally 1.5s too, isn't it, rather than slush's 1s?

Like institute, power is an issue for illuminati as most ways to deal multiple mental affs in a balance need power, and every time you use power you get further away from having the 8p to illuminate.

It's way way easier to build tempinsanity in groups but a bit harder to snipe a kill than institute as the illuminatus still needs to truename first. It's probably most likely to happen in groups of 2-5 if they're Gaudi-heavy. With more folk, damage is quicker.

Report 107 should help illuminati, restoring GreyWhispers from 1 aff/tick back to 1 aff + minor temp insanity. I've not tested it yet as I'm having fun flipping around as Nunchaku.

Feoragan · December 2019

Orael said:

Feoragan said:

2 competent Hallifaxians would be a pretty deadly combo tbh. I'm not going to tell people how to break stuff if they somehow haven't already realised how. Even if it only lasts for a week (it'll last for months) it'll still be annoying.

In the 3 or so years since I made the jump to admin, I've seen quite a few players make claims such as the ones being made here. In general, if I'm not buying it, I typically say something along the lines of 'you may be right, but I just don't see that happening. Feel free to prove me wrong though.' This is one of those situations.

If there really are combos and situations with Institute that would require 'instant nerfs', then I encourage you to demonstrate them and show how it can be done and how powerful they really can be.

I do think Institute it strong, easily comparable in strength to SD at the least, but I don't believe they're a burst class and are rather an attrition class. Yes, they're faster in groups than solo but we made group considerations when implementing them, such as insight only working for the caster and the afflictions they give.

I'm always open to constructive discussion and adjustments (it's an ever-evolving game, new tricks and tweaks open up new avenues of stuff all the time, many of them unforeseen) but we definitely need to make sure that our concerns and points are rooted in facts and not just opinion or theory. Concerns about RNG are fine (that's the nature of RNG, it's pretty fickle) but I think it adds an extra element to the strategy. It's much more linear with known values, both offensively and defensively.

Except there are literally tools in place that seem intended to pull off some really broken stuff.

Personally, I think the way that Institute are, they're stronger than Shadowdancers by a fair bit. I really don't want to go into this, because this isn't an SD vs Institute thread, nor an SD vs anyone else thread. SD at the moment could do with some evaluation imo. It's not an awful class, but a lot of the strategy revolves around basically 3 skills, which is one of the reasons SD has had issues in the past.

I think a lot of "SD are strong" comments come from some silly stuff that Shadowdancers used to have, some of which I'd argue wouldn't even be out of place in the current state of combat really, stuff that literally already exists, but better. I don't think it actually reflects on their current state at all, and while I think that bringing Shadowdancers into the conversation is turning the focus away from Institute, I'll expand a bit here.

Shadowdancers, out of all of the Guardians, are the only ones without a revival method. In fact, that revival method belongs to Crow, for some reason, and is both incredibly unwieldy and costly, one of the worst, and one of the reasons Crow needs a looking over. That's for another thread. In comparison, Celestines and other Sacraments users get essentially free revives on other Sacraments users or more costly revives for non-sacraments users. Moon users can revive Stag+Moon followers for free with a circle of three Serenwilde or a non-stag+moon follower for a cost. There's Necromancy, which is basically a pre-emptive revive and their version of Nightkiss/Drawdown, except on others. I'm not going to go into a too expansive discussion on all that, it is what it is.

Notable mention, Institute get a Heartstone, which costs 5 power, 3 gems, lasts for 12 days and can be used to revive someone remotely. Comparatively, Illuminati get their Fleshmounds, which takes 10 power, costs 25 flesh and needs the corpse in front of you, then transports you to Vortex (so out of the fight) but still, they have a revive.

The suggestion that having two shadowdancers makes you significantly stronger is kind of null. Having two of nearly anything makes you stronger in most cases, except for some classes with diminishing returns, SD is actually one of these. Compared to MD, only one person can take advantage of twisting the shadow until the unravel. Moondancers, and all allies that afflict mentals, can help with succumb. I've seen some insanely fast MD kills in my time.

While Terror is admittedly something that's not realistically going to be used in combat except under some very special circumstances, there's the fact that it allows at-range blind and at-range steal while Rage gets at-range aeon and at-range dark.

There are so many of these little inconsistencies like this all over the game that aren't quite properly justified. Absolute parity isn't what I'm looking for, but I feel that if a class is lacking in some ways, it should be made up in other places.

Rant Over.

The thing I'm worried about is how fast Timewarp/Tempinsanity CAN stack and skills like Paradox that you could drop on one person, slam that person with Timewarp, you don't even actually need to be IN Hallifax to stack this afaiw, then timequake the entire room. This is an issue COMPLETELY unique to Aeonics. I don't know ANYTHING else like this in the whole game. The

Feoragan · December 2019

I'm going to just say, I think Institute is definitely stronger than Illuminati at the moment, and the way SSC has been working has been giving some slight undue balance for a while that's not gone noticed or bugged as far as I'm aware.

Edit: It is being fixed as we speak though.

Edit Edit: The previous post was supposed to say that "There was already discussion about how fast stacking can be."

Parhelion · December 2019

Shadowdancers aren't guardians.

Since we're throwing around random what-abouts, here's a few.

Fun fact: Institute are the only guardians without a built-in flight, or a beckon, and their revival requires giving someone a heart before they go into battle. It requires setup just like Lichseed. Illuminati doesn't require prep for their resurrection, but it does sap 50 flesh out of their mound, which is capped at 100.

Fun fact: Shadowdancers get free, unavoidable blind. Blind shuts down probably 90% of timed instakills.

Parhelion · December 2019

The thing I'm worried about is how fast Timewarp/Tempinsanity CAN stack and skills like Paradox that you could drop on one person, slam that person with Timewarp, you don't even actually need to be IN Hallifax to stack this afaiw, then timequake the entire room. This is an issue COMPLETELY unique to Aeonics.

Yes, hi. Which class outside hallifax can afflict with timewarp?

And you do understand that you can't just get one person to massive timewarp and then timequake the whole room, right? Each person gets checked for massive timewarp individually.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions. I'd like to urge you to roll an Institute, tell nobody who you are, and show us how it's done.

Keegan · December 2019

Choros said:

The thing I'm worried about is how fast Timewarp/Tempinsanity CAN stack and skills like Paradox that you could drop on one person, slam that person with Timewarp, you don't even actually need to be IN Hallifax to stack this afaiw, then timequake the entire room. This is an issue COMPLETELY unique to Aeonics.

Yes, hi. Which class outside hallifax can afflict with timewarp?

And you do understand that you can't just get one person to massive timewarp and then timequake the whole room, right? Each person gets checked for massive timewarp individually.

You seem to make a lot of assumptions. I'd like to urge you to roll an Institute, tell nobody who you are, and show us how it's done.

Arguably there is the niche possibility that Flay/BendAura RNG onto Timewarp.
I feel like a Healing Tert Wiccan/Guardian is likely not going to be trying to push timewarp via healing, mind.

Parhelion · December 2019

Fair point, but I doubt he knew that.

Ourina · December 2019

Institute revive is technically inferior in that heartstone drops when the Institute dies.

Ourina · December 2019

Choros said:

The thing I'm worried about is how fast Timewarp/Tempinsanity CAN stack and skills like Paradox that you could drop on one person, slam that person with Timewarp, you don't even actually need to be IN Hallifax to stack this afaiw, then timequake the entire room. This is an issue COMPLETELY unique to Aeonics.

Yes, hi. Which class outside hallifax can afflict with timewarp?

Assume he is referring to oracle + non-Halli stacking steam affs (?)

Keegan · December 2019

If people are honestly concerned about Roomwide Timequake, and that time may come to pass, I look forward to seeing the cool replacement idea that you come up with for Aeonic's Magnum Opus 10p trans ability.

I'm going to try and break the charade and be honest in a non-threatening manner.

I understand you have concerns, Feoragan, but I honestly think that you should earnestly try to improve yourself before you go after skill sets and archetypes. I don't think anyone is opposed to tweaking skills in aeonics, and I'd honestly not be opposed at all to seeing what things we can branch from new Aeonics to Illuminati if they are seen behind par. Aeon is fine. I honestly thought old aeon is fine, but I'm not going to complain about where we are today.

But simply coming out and branding Aeonics as broken, listing some random abilities and giving a somewhat-or-maybe description of the ability and claiming it to be a problem doesn't really constitute a review or the makings of an argument.

In all honestly I'm happy, more than happy, to help you figure out your offence and defence and make adjustments where appropriate to do better to counter aeonics. You have prior mentioned running away, and recently have begun spamming invoke circle to stonewall my offense (protip: spamming invoke circle will stall anyone who isn't a warrior/monk, and will slow warriors down a lot 1v1). Having been on the other side of this statement I understand that it's easy to question the intention behind it and its candidness so I will endeavour as to not bring it up again. I think Shadowdancers and your late choice of Shadowbeat are both really great skill sets (I still think Harbinger is the strongest skill set in all of Glomdoring, in 1v1 and group contexts). I also think that I haven't seen a Shadow Dancer or Harbinger do them justice in a while, nor attempt it.

I think, having fully explored your options and counters against classes will do a lot more to support your perception of these skills and give more validity to your concerns.

Keegan · December 2019

Ourina said:

Choros said:

The thing I'm worried about is how fast Timewarp/Tempinsanity CAN stack and skills like Paradox that you could drop on one person, slam that person with Timewarp, you don't even actually need to be IN Hallifax to stack this afaiw, then timequake the entire room. This is an issue COMPLETELY unique to Aeonics.

Yes, hi. Which class outside hallifax can afflict with timewarp?

Assume he is referring to oracle + non-Halli stacking steam affs (?)

Perhaps, but Oracle would require non-hallis to selectively choose steam affs that aren't already on the target's table from the small pool of poisons (and aurics, potentially) they have access too. Additionally, the onus is on the Institute to spend their balances maintaining Oracle's duration.

Parhelion · December 2019

Maligorn · December 2019

Fwiw, revival skills are pretty much a non-factor when you realize certain people (Ixion, Sondayga, Malarious most prominently) have that little artifact that beheads corpses. They all have it triggered to do it as soon as possible (read: within a few seconds) and that destroys the corpse, rendering all forms of resurrection moot except for the one that kills the user in Sacraments. Beyond that, there are other ways to destroy corpses ASAP to nullify rezzes.

The state of Aeonics

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