Ascension - Wyrdenwood, Lag, Bragging Rights.

Mboagn · July 2020

Synl said:
No, it has not. You keep saying this and it is still a lie. There has been no report put in for wyrdenwood bombs. You did rant about it on discord, but there is way, way more consistent ranting about monks on discord too. There was huge ranting about Aeonics, at one point. Etc. It is unreasonable to expect IO to change things because a handful of people are ranting about an ability.

Put in a report. If that report is supported by players, and then still rejected by the admins, then you can start saying what you've been saying and it will actually mean something.

Not wyrdenwood bombs directly, but Report 151 does indirectly state that Noose and Creeping presented a problem. Noose was the target of that report, which was subsequently hit with half a solution.

You can imagine how that didn't exactly boost confidence that envoys are enough to fix any future problems with wyrdenwood.

Mboagn · July 2020

At this point, I think it's best if we just wait if the admins will respond to the issues. If nothing's acknowledged in 48 hours, I'll accept that the admins have assessed the situation properly, deemed wood bombs are fine, and so I'll drop the subject entirely.

edit; to clarify, I'm not asking for Creeping to be yeeted to oblivion in 48 hours.

I just wanna know if they think something is wrong and so, potentially, something could change. Don't wanna waste time preparing reports and doing testing if things aren't considered an issue in the first place.

Steingrim · July 2020

Brawrur said:

We've literally had multiple discussions with Oraeal over the course of like months telling him how bullshit this thing is.

Well, then this is a huge issue. Why are there these discussions taking place away from most of the player base?

Brawrur · July 2020

Steingrim said:
Well, then this is a huge issue. Why are there these discussions taking place away from most of the player base?

You are actually just very openly trolling at this point aren't you?

Mboagn · July 2020

Steingrim said:

Brawrur said:

We've literally had multiple discussions with Oraeal over the course of like months telling him how bullshit this thing is.

Well, then this is a huge issue. Why are there these discussions taking place away from most of the player base?

It's been discussed in the game, Discord, and now, the forums. What other channel of communication have we missed?

Tarken · July 2020

Of course our side of things would be mad if we'd lost. Losing sucks, and sucks even more when there are elements out of your control which fundamentally alter the nature of the contest. The lag was absolutely infuriating and it is impossible to know how things would have gone were it different. We can speculate all we want, but unfortunately we will simply never know. I was one of the people suffering from multi minute lag bursts (it seems like some of us maybe got it worse, but maybe not?).

Precision was out of the question in this event. The lag was unlike anything I've experienced in past ascensions: obviously everyone knew it was going to be rough because it is just the nature of the beast, but something definitely wasn't quite right this year. I literally entered my doom alias half way through and went to make a coffee. I got back before it went through. There are few things more rage inducing in text pk than knowing what you have to do but being unable to do it due to lag.

I'd personally have supported a woodbomb report, but am not an envoy and do not participate in the public discord so have no idea what the discussions here have been.

Congratulations to Parhelion and Ixion for making a fight of it even so.

Enya · July 2020

Going to chime in briefly to say that players have been aware of issues with wood design since oh... day one of their release, and that none of the major problems have ever been fixed. The classes have *always* been feast or famine with really busted bombs in huge group fights and substantial issues doing anything else but spam. Read the special reports and you'll see reports on such hits as noose and so on.

There have been many reports, pages of analysis written and ignored, and it's one of the reasons I don't play anymore.

Parhelion · July 2020

Mboagn said:

You saw how quick the admins tried to slap a band-aid on Ascension woes with a truefavour.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with Ascension, but pretty much every year, our admin hand out favours like candy after ascension, win or lose, because we work our asses off. That isn't them pandering to us, that's them literally icly saying, "you mortals are alright, thanks for not letting Kethuru eat us."

Thalkros · July 2020

Parhelion said:

Mboagn said:

You saw how quick the admins tried to slap a band-aid on Ascension woes with a truefavour.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with Ascension, but pretty much every year, our admin hand out favours like candy after ascension, win or lose, because we work our asses off. That isn't them pandering to us, that's them literally icly saying, "you mortals are alright, thanks for not letting Kethuru eat us."

Except the TF came with a ‘hey sorry about the lag, sucks. Have a tf.’ System message which is what a lot of people found pretty poorly done.

Parhelion · July 2020

Thalkros said:

Parhelion said:

Mboagn said:

You saw how quick the admins tried to slap a band-aid on Ascension woes with a truefavour.

I'm not sure how much experience you have with Ascension, but pretty much every year, our admin hand out favours like candy after ascension, win or lose, because we work our asses off. That isn't them pandering to us, that's them literally icly saying, "you mortals are alright, thanks for not letting Kethuru eat us."

Except the TF came with a ‘hey sorry about the lag, sucks. Have a tf.’ System message which is what a lot of people found pretty poorly done.

ok, I didn't catch that one >.>

Jaspet · July 2020

Brawrur said:

We've literally had multiple discussions with Oraeal over the course of like months telling him how bullshit this thing is.

It's not that it hasn't "gotten to the people who make the decisions" or somehow slipped by. We've literally had him tell us that it's very fair and balanced and right.

"Do reports" is a shit response. We may as well tell IHC to just not do any combat for the next year until those open again.

I remember being deterred away from touching the whole race thing as an envoy report and had my hands too full of reports to actually make some of Gaudi's classes not as much of a joke.

I don't know why you're calling anyone liars, there are logs of this.

The problem seems to be expectations.

There is absolutely no way that a special report was going to happen without the involvement of the other side's braintrust in the leadup weeks to the biggest event of the year. It just couldn't.

No matter what you think of Wyrdenwood, no one can object to calling it a major part of our plans. We had eight of our thirty people in that class by design. If that was upended without a formal process in the twilight hours of the Ascension buildup, the outcry would have been so much worse than this.

We just finished a report cycle with over 100 reports, all of which were given consideration and feedback by both sides. I'm sure you had multiple discussions, just like we did, about which abilities need work and which are pushing out of bounds. That no one addressed Wyrdenwood during that window meant it was going to make an impact on Ascension, because that is the toolkit that we were handed for Ascension. To do otherwise would be to break the process entirely.

Aoe and passives win Ascension, because of how they scale to groups and lag respectively. It's unfortunate, but unless something dramatic happens like a cap on the number of players hit by an AoE, those skills will always win you events like this.

Dys · July 2020

That lag in the second half was really frustrating. Worse than I remember seeing in previous Ascensions. At one point I was killed and couldn't reincarnate for nearly three minutes. Even after I turned off my system (which wasn't trying to do anything anyway as it clears when I die) the game was spamming me with 'You are dead and cannot do that.'

It was weird how it wasn't consistent. That time Shango died about a minute after me and reincarnated way before I could get the command through.

I enjoyed the fights in the first half when we could move. A lag of 5s or so actually gave me time to think about what I was doing and shielding against the bombs was ok.

Well done Parhelion (good name) and team, I liked the celebratory lego cake from your child!

I feel bad for Ixion.

Jaspet · July 2020

Dys said:

That lag in the second half was really frustrating. Worse than I remember seeing in previous Ascensions. At one point I was killed and couldn't reincarnate for nearly three minutes. Even after I turned off my system (which wasn't trying to do anything anyway as it clears when I die) the game was spamming me with 'You are dead and cannot do that.'

I had a serious moment of panic about midway through when my gust attempts on Choros went through a good five minutes after I had entered them and he was safely back with the group. Thankfully it didn't wreck anything, but it had a real risk to.

Sapphira · July 2020

I think what most people are saying is, if not for lag they would have been able to counter the bombs. But with lag, any sort of set and forget powers that hit multiple people for massive damage from a distance that get through with people unable to react are going to be incredibly powerful, and bombs are a powerful less-than-10-second ability that can get through and hit multiple people at once while they helplessly stare at their screen, hoping the command they entered 5 minutes ago will send - let alone react in a timely manner. Logging out and restarting every 10 minutes shouldn't be necessary to hopefully have a few minutes where commands go through. Where's the real competition in that? Where is the victory?

People know how to counter the bombs/protect themselves/stay alive. They didn't lose to these powers by being poor players or less skilled or by making tactical mistakes, and that is what really stings. Being told to just get better for next year is a really big kick in the face. No one says the other side didn't also work hard and plan and try hard and spend credits (everyone did!), and it seems no matter the outcome, it was going to be unfair because ultimately lag won the day. Anyone who poured their heart into it would be (and a lot clearly are) upset with being unable to play and perhaps everyone saying prettily to get good or maybe you should have envoyed should consider how they would feel if the outcome wasn't in their favour.

Maybe if there had been no lag, Choros would still be triumphant, and I truly believe most (most, not all, most) would still be satisfied knowing they tried their utmost best and gave it their all and were just unfortunately outplayed, as opposed to what ultimately happened. I think we all need to look beyond 'they are just being sore losers'.

Aonia · July 2020

Some posts have been removed from this thread as they were made by, or in reply to, a player who is currently banned.

Kreon · July 2020

I rarely post and only lurk but for being a long term player, this lag was very frustrating. This was my first time being a dedicated leader for our side and seeing all my commands go through either 5 mins later or when I died just spamming me was hectic. Even reincarnate took forever, yay being a VA.

Eitherway y'all did great, when Ixion was around 3000 points and being slippery I was starting to lose hope. I know your frustration very well since back when chemist came out, PyroChem gave us the works and was wiping us out nonstop. I agree that both woods with demi+ are strong. If you think I'm lying then I can hop onto the test server and show you I do the same damage numbers as a Wildewood.

Congrats to Parhelion, now let's raise a Beauty TA next!

Synl · July 2020

100% if not for all of us being on voice chat, this ascension would have made no sense. The game was 'Well my screen froze, that means the groups met. I guess I send my bomb command and hope something happens.'

Xenthos · July 2020

Synl said:

100% if not for all of us being on voice chat, this ascension would have made no sense. The game was 'Well my screen froze, that means the groups met. I guess I send my bomb command and hope something happens.'

This times 1,000.

We were watching the timequakes leading up to Ascension with lots of participants and seeing the lagbeasts that spawned every. single. time that there was an engagement with horror. It was obvious that Ascension was going to be a lag fest (if there was even a fight of course, for a long time it looked like there wouldn't be).

The only strategy was to plan with lag in mind. I wish that it hadn't needed to be that way, for everyone's sake, but that was the state of the game at the time of the event and what we had to work with.

Edit: Also, from my observation, the lag was worse on whichever side was trying to break into the other side's fortress. The lag hit most of our team a lot more intensely during the first half than the second per voice chat convos, which was the opposite for IHC. I was one of the exceptions, because during the first half I was mostly trying to pit around places for control, and the second half I was madly running around doing things on Leo which appeared to be a big cause of the choking.

I'm really hopeful that enough information has been garnered to address these issues moving forward, because at that point we were playing against the servers, not against the other team.

Shango · July 2020

Yeah but...because of the lag, we couldn't easily get within that bomb room radius...and the two times we DID, and reclaimed the damned staff...lag ensured we couldn't keep it. One point, Uzriel had the staff, and we were making our way to a node to safety, so that Ixion could rejoin and claim it. 8 rooms away, kethbit spawned, incapacitated both of us, as lag ensured the command just to STAND (as I kept trying to move in and out for my old Death medallion to kill the damned thing) would not go through at all. So timed out and Ciaran got the staff again and was back to Choros. When we had it 3300:300ish as the score, lag being the deciding factor made it so bad

Soon as Ascension is over though, NO LAG at all. Instantly. People frozen in place for those messages, sure, but even after that, no mass QQ's (or better not be), but still no lag issues. I really hope it all gets fixed.

Kailanna · July 2020

First post here, so apparently this is what it took to break my "keep everything ingame" rule. Hooray. I'd like to note first that an ongoing and constant source of annoyance for me has been trying to keep n'Kylbar afloat while every other family member retires in protest of one thing or another. This Ascension was the first time I've thought "Oh, I get it now."

I'd like to bring the attention back to something Thalkros said that I don't think is getting enough consideration, which was:

Thalkros said:

...I just cannot fathom how the Staff event was allowed to proceed past the moment it was realized there was an issue of this magnitude.

This is the big issue I'm having right now, because the prevailing sentiment seems to be that this was a legitimate outcome, it's time to move forward, and try again next year. In literally any other situation, it would be the opposite. If I spent six months studying for a big test, and it turned out the test forms had only been printed with every other word, I wouldn't have crossed my fingers and taken the test and considered the inevitably abysmal score correct. I would have expected they would have canceled it, reprinted the tests, and had everyone come back the next day. If game 7 of the Stanley Cup came around, and right before the game all the ice melted, they wouldn't have sent everyone out anyway and said "Wow, bummer. This still counts by the way, good luck."

This entire experience has left an incredibly bad taste in my mouth, and left me with more than a little doubt about the investment vs. outcome balance in continuing to play the game. Everyone (on both sides) worked incredibly hard for months to prep for Ascension, which is the keystone event in a game called AGE OF ASCENSION. For the outcome of such an important event to be such an intolerable mess, and everyone just accepting it and moving forward is absurd to me. Why spend so much time working toward something when the end result is literally out of your control? I'm not even close to being one of the big combatants or one of the people who invested the most planning and work in preparing for this, and I still find the wasted time and effort utterly demoralizing.

I'm going to step down off my soapbox now, but I have to say I think we should be spending much less time thinking "Gee, next year we should plan to use a strategy that takes advantage of the game being unplayable" and more time trying to figure out why we haven't heard Avechna yelling "Oh no, mortals! Just before being banished, Kethuru was able to corrupt the Seal of Time and wind time back to before the Ascension began! Now we'll have to do it over again when time is flowing properly!"

Nelras · July 2020

In response to anyone questioning why Ascension was not postponed, please could I just mention that some people had to make RL arrangements in order to attend. While, "Just run it tomorrow or next week," sounds like a quick solution, it may not have been that easy. While the lag was bad for people on both sides, potentially in part due to the increased number of players, it has to be better than not having people turn up.

Mboagn · July 2020

As someone from the losing side who had to make RL arrangements, the way the Ascension played out was just a waste of time considering the game was unplayable, anyway.

Kethaera · July 2020

Nelras said:

In response to anyone questioning why Ascension was not postponed, please could I just mention that some people had to make RL arrangements in order to attend. While, "Just run it tomorrow or next week," sounds like a quick solution, it may not have been that easy. While the lag was bad for people on both sides, potentially in part due to the increased number of players, it has to be better than not having people turn up.

Completely disagree. I would have rather have logged out than continued, but didn't because of the commitment to finish. There will never be a good time for me in the next month or so(and Saturday messed up a lot of my rl plans, too), but better a bad time I had to work around than what we got.

Nelras · July 2020

That is entirely your decision to make, and I am sorry to hear that you feel that way about how it went. I just wanted to make sure that someone said that it might not be a trivial matter to reschedule it.

Aknarin · July 2020

<blockquote class="Quote">
<div class="QuoteAuthor"><a href="/profile/Synl">Synl</a> said:</div>
<div class="QuoteText">100% if not for all of us being on voice chat, this ascension would have made no sense. The game was 'Well my screen froze, that means the groups met. I guess I send my bomb command and hope something happens.'</div>
</blockquote>

This... i remember saying on our voice chat “Yay I died” for the pure fact that being around the IHC fortress after engagement just lagged out my screen completely. It then took me a further 5 minutes to reincarnate because 1) I had to wait for all my old commands to go through. 2) I couldn’t remember the command to reincarnate because my mind went blank (thanks @Xenthos) And 3) the reincarnate wouldn’t go through.

Lag was horrendous. We all agree it killed it for everyone.

Ascension - Wyrdenwood, Lag, Bragging Rights.

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