I agree with almost all of what Ruiku said, except I think we should at least try to reach out to "toxic" players. Call me optimistic or naive, but I'm a believer of the idea that toxicity is an aspect of situations, not persons, and situations can be fixed to the betterment of everyone.
It is disheartening to see confirmation of the OOC toxicity: personal character attacks, gaslighting and wishing harm upon another player, but hopefully once this collective cathartic moment has passed we can begin the hard work of addressing the things that create such a toxic environment and break with the players that promote toxicity.
I can not really comment on Ixion extending that courtesy or not, I don't know with him. I've only experienced him in his IC capacity and I never was in an org that was allied with him. My optimistic / harmony loving heart wishes of course that anyone finding themselves in such a position would consider extending such a courtesy to their IC opponents in a game, given such a situation.
What I want to endorse, and hence my quoting, is that last bit that @Ruiku said. Pushing forward and past OOC toxicity in this community is extremely important and it addresses all of us. Not one "side", not one "group", not one "org", literally everyone. The amount of people in every org from the top of my head that come across as toxic if you're on their "enemy" side and are super lovely great people once you get past that "enemy" label in this community is staggering. People here are generally lovely, caring and great. We should strive to turn out these aspects on an OOC base. Not telling you to like people you don't, but there's a certain baseline everyone can achieve and it would, I think, all of our experiences better, IC and OOC.
Especially in times where the world around us is literally in flames, pushing forward to become a community that is not toxic to each other is a goal I feel we should aim for.
How can this situation be fixed at this point? I am kind of at a loss. There was a rush to make and post a decision asap. The clearest possible alternative to undoing the decision would have been to raise Ciaran as well, I guess. Something is not as special if it is shared, and giving a "bonus ta" to both sides might have been easier to swallow. The event could have been thus presented as a unified thing for all sides to come together on... but, well. That is not possible now. I know Ciaran asked them about the possibility, no idea if he ever got a reply though.
I guess we can see if people would put their money where their mouth is. Aramel was the runner up for Justice; Aramel was also (arguably) the most key person on our team. If anyone deserves recognition for the win, I would rate her highly. Evette and Jaspet were just short on Death, putting in an incredible performance, and one of them was tagged as MVP by Choros for simply keeping him alive. Tarken was the runner up for War, and ceded the seal to Ciaran because he couldn't see us having a chance and thought someone who did not have a seal should get one.
We are already bending the event here. Would any of you people be willing to accept one of these four as a "runner-up TA" (whatever the heck we are going to call it)?
As I said in my previous post, we're just not seeing the consideration going both ways here. I don't think that this idea is even seriously on the table from the admin pov btw, it is simply a "food for thought" query.
Doing this, even if you are changing the events for 2021 and onward, soils it and the trust in the admin. Why not just reward the first place prize in all contests to first and second then? This decision sets a precedent for all future competition (be it Seal, Ascension, or otherwise) that getting close enough in second place means you should get rewarded top prize as well. This decision was arrived at with consulting only 2 people. That's not the game. That's not even the major leaders on both sides. If more than just Choros and Ixion were consulted, that would be fair. Of course Ixion is going to say yes. And Choros is put in the tough spot of either being the person who says 'no sorry, you can't share this with me' or 'sorry team, I know most of you played to stopped Ixion, but we now share the win'. It is a lose-lose question. All this shows is that if you want to be rewarded for being on a losing end, just complain enough until the admin cave and give you want you want.
Most older players have an understanding that if you complain just enough, something will change. Whether for good or bad, the fact that a complaint can affect an in-game decision is a precedent that has been set prior to this Ascension. For reference, Xynthin/Xenthos event. I'll dig up the other events if need be, but this is the first that came to mind.
A special event is held 90% of the time in Lusternia when an error or RP incident occurred that could not be roleplayed into the current events of the world. Pretty standard thing if we look at other MUD games.
It has been said that Ixion will get TA and a special event to go along with it. This is just more salt to the wound. It will be even worse if he is claimed as a TA of Time like it seems like it will be. Even if there are no domoth powers to Time, having him be the first and only TA of Time would be an insult. Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but any sort of special TA-ness is just wrong and makes Ixion seem like the actually winner over Choros.
Where is it stated that Ixion would receive the TA of Time? As for what I know, he was the Sealbearer of Chaos. Considering that this Ascension has been particularly chaotic, it would make sense that Ixion would receive TA of Chaos instead.
So I have been pointing out that decision-making in back rooms with only a couple of parties is a terrible look, and got this reply: "Xenthos, after discussing it, we agree that the back end conversations
are doing no favours and we need to stick to official channels."
I think this is a very good step forward, but it then goes on to say that the only valid official public place for a discussion is these forums. The only valid private places are emails and issues (which will get private responses).
Finally, I would like to know if any other options were even considered at all. What was the decision process that led to "both people get the grand prize"? What was the decision process in not actually discussing it with the playerbase to see if there were any possibilities of getting buy-in and more of a groundswell of support, instead of just declaring via fiat that this is what is going to happen? The pushback can't be entirely surprising here, and you could have worked to try to tamp it down instead.
Xenthos. I understand that you are a long time player and have a pretty vast knowledge of a lot of Lusternia's workings. That being said... why not become an Epheremal to become a part of the team? I understand that you have affected quite a few decisions in the past, but we are only allowed to do so much as players.
Transparency of Lusternia's developer actions: Yes
It would be nice, but we are only allowed to know so much. That is typical of any development team. You don't see half as many games nowadays with nearly as much community action and discussion provided by their developers. Aonia and Orael are amazing in this regard. Even when it is apparent that the player base has made them quite unhappy as well.
The outcome of an event, plagued with a development issue: No
As players, we should only be able to affect what the outcome of an event is In-character. Period.
In-character, can we voice our complaints about how the decision was achieved?
Yes, but it will not change the decision. That is a developer level decision that players are not allowed to make.
Once the Out-of-character border is crossed the result is as we see within this thread. Can we voice our complaints about how the decision was achieved?
Yes, but now that it is within an out-of-character place the feelings that a player has obtained from their in-character "character" should be significantly minimized. I'm not saying "Don't feel angry, or frustrated, or even happy with how things have turned out." Instead, do some introspection. Why are you feeling this way? Take a step back from your character and their thoughts and feelings to look at this from the developer's standpoint.
Orael and Aonia are doing the best that they can with what they had hoped was a viable solution to the problem at hand.
Having friends or....frenemies? IC on both sides I do feel drawn to contribute a few of my feelings in this conversation, having a bit more time today.
I have not read each post, even if I try to keep apprised of the forums, and I do applaud the Devs trying act to fix a situation that has led to strain relations OOC after this ascension. My feelings on who is raised, Ixion or Choros, are indifferent as I have not known either long enough to really make any comments. I do feel, however, at the moment that the people are being trampled on both sides of the line; unfortunately for this beautiful world.
I do wish to ask everyone that was affected on either side to remember why they love this game and to take a moment to read the beautiful storytelling that has been woven in each of their respective orgs. From the depravation of Magnagora to the sanctity of New Celest, there is so much to this gorgeous game that raptures the mind and allows one to live their dreams. Please do not allow that beauty to be tainted from the unfortunate mess of ascension and continue to enjoy the artwork that is Lusternia & the Divine that tend to it.
Afollia hit a lot of key points in her post. It made me personally happy to read and see it as such.
I've played Lusternia for 8+ years now.
I've seen countless decisions and outcomes made that have caused strife in people's lives when it really shouldn't have. At the end of the day, Lusternia is a video-game. If you're letting a video-game influence your sleep/work/life, then it is time to quit. I used to have this issue in years 1&2 of when I played Lusternia. I would end my day on the game absolutely livid at being killed, or that an outcome or event ended a way it did because we just didn't work hard enough. I actually had a moment of that during this Ascension. Ascension ended, and I ALT + F4'd out of the game because I was angry at how things had ended. I also took some time away to realize, this is a videogame. I shouldn't be angry or upset otherwise at something I tried my hardest in.
The above about how I was affected being said, if you are a player that vehemently detests someone IRL or wishes a real-life death on a player whose character is detested in a video-game, that is not acceptable. Our small community here has no place for toxicity like this. I hope that I never find out who said or did this, but that is absolutely unacceptable.
To Orael & Aonia amongst the other team members;
I'm sorry that this Ascension has caused so much strife in your world.
That we as players have become so unhealthy towards each other.
That you who are working your hardest to find a solution aren't acknowledged for such work because neither side will be happy with your decision.
To this community:
I'm just sad.
What we've all built over these last few years seems to be tearing at the seams.
I think if you focus on addressing that, maybe we can get somewhere here. I guess it fundamentally comes down to the feeling that one party's concerns were rated as more valid than the other's. One set of concerns got explicitly, publicly addressed, and the other... just wasn't. Can you see how this comes across to us, from our standpoint? You've now acknowledged that it was at least considered, but we still don't know anything more than that. Nothing else was, to our knowledge, done to address our concerns, though they were raised before the decision was made. We have exactly what we had before this announce post was written, but also all the feelings that came with the post which undermines the achievement of what we managed to pull off despite all expectations (by everyone). Nobody thought we were going to win this thing. The fact that it happened was incredible... and then we got hit with this post.
Any failure on our part to address the concerns of the winning side in our post was simply an oversight. Again, we're not perfect here, so I apologize for that. We should have considered it and we did not. I don't know that there's really any more to say here. We did consider your side when making this decision, very thoroughly. Tarken said:
If the admin can honestly tell us that if Ixion had won and Choros had lost that Choros would still have been raised even though this was the expected result, I think that would put a lot of minds at ease among whatever they're calling the Glomdoring/Celest/Hallifax coalition now.
This was one of the first things that was brought up when we discussed it. We said that had Ixion won while Choros was still at 700ish points, it was unlikely we would have offered him this same opportunity but had Ixion won after Uzriel grabbed the staff, and they were both at 3300 points, we would have certainly considered it, and likely done it. The closeness of the contest was a major factor in our decision.
@Ciaran and the rest of Equinox - I understand your frustration here better than most. I personally know what it feels like to have all your efforts, planning, preparation, rallying the team, planning for contingencies and how to combat specific strategies, etc, all thrown out the window and your win attributed to lag. We're not trying to push some narrative that you didn't work hard or that you wouldn't have won without it. The issue is that we simply don't know because the score was too close. It's quite possible that the only reason Ixion got within 4 minutes was entirely because of the lag just as much as it's possible that Choros did win because of the lag. The issue with the level of lag that you faced in this situation quite possibly did affect the outcome. That level of lag starts putting much more emphasis on luck than it does on skill. Ciaran even says himself that in the end, it was more about who was closest than who was fastest.
I am disappointed that we're losing anyone over this, but we are looking at losing people whichever way we decided.
The last point I want to address is this. This was not Parhelion or Ixion's decision to make, the decision was solely our decision. This isn't on the other admin who participated in the discussion or any of the players. The responsibility for it lies squarely on our shoulders. We did consult Ixion and Parhelion and consider their input, but they didn't make this decision. We did.
Thank you for going back to my post; I appreciate the reply. Because that announce did hurt for the reasons specified, and having that recognized does help a little at least.
There were other posts written while you were making that one, I think. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on those as well.
@Ciaran and the rest of Equinox - I understand your frustration here better than most. I personally know what it feels like to have all your efforts, planning, preparation, rallying the team, planning for contingencies and how to combat specific strategies, etc, all thrown out the window and your win attributed to lag. We're not trying to push some narrative that you didn't work hard or that you wouldn't have won without it. The issue is that we simply don't know because the score was too close. It's quite possible that the only reason Ixion got within 4 minutes was entirely because of the lag just as much as it's possible that Choros did win because of the lag. The issue with the level of lag that you faced in this situation quite possibly did affect the outcome. That level of lag starts putting much more emphasis on luck than it does on skill. Ciaran even says himself that in the end, it was more about who was closest than who was fastest.
I think you have made it clear here that you don't. I can only speak for myself, but the issue was never that people were pushing a narrative that I didn't agree with. It was totally fine letting them vent on discord and on all of the various other platforms to the admin. I knew that arguing with them point for point would only make things more hurtful and contentious. What I never expected or foresaw was that their narrative would retroactively change the outcome of ascension.
I appear to have failed to properly convey this with my post.
I think that's part of the issue - that it's become an issue of which narrative we're following. That we're somehow taking one side's narrative and ignoring the other because they complained less. That we're promoting the 'complain for change' procedure, and that's the furthest from the case.
The 'narrative' we're following here is one that both sides have acknowledged as an issue - that the lag played a major part and it all but certainly had an effect on the outcome. Both sides have acknowledged that it affected their ability to perform, Both sides have acknowledged that it pushed things more towards luck than skill. This isn't us taking the 'pushed narrative from one side', if that was the case, we'd be nerfing chemwoods yesterday. It's us considering all sides and making the decision we feel is best for the game overall.
I, unfortunately, do not have more time this morning to respond to more - but I will monitor throughout the day and respond this evening when I have some time.
It has been said that Ixion will get TA and a special event to go along with it. This is just more salt to the wound. It will be even worse if he is claimed as a TA of Time like it seems like it will be. Even if there are no domoth powers to Time, having him be the first and only TA of Time would be an insult. Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but any sort of special TA-ness is just wrong and makes Ixion seem like the actually winner over Choros.
Where is it stated that Ixion would receive the TA of Time? As for what I know, he was the Sealbearer of Chaos. Considering that this Ascension has been particularly chaotic, it would make sense that Ixion would receive TA of Chaos instead.
It hasn't been said, no. But this an important point of the arguement. How does raising Ixion to TA differ from Choros? Choros is the one who won Ascension (regardless of why). That's first place. So, there are a few choices. Give Ixion TA of Chaos (and the 3 free powers that come with that) and have 2 first places and it is like Ascension never really happen. Or give Ixion TA of Time (or something similar) that gives 0 free powers and does feel more second place on the surface until you get to the whole 'special event and unique title' part which is much more of a first place feeling. It is just I don't see how the admin are going to do the RP this and not have it feel like Ixion got the better prize.
Apologies were already given and admin have already acknowledged they believe they may have been able to handle it better. There is not much farther this can go and people are feeding a cycle.
So, I will say something new.
I came into Ascension on the assumption of a loss, because seal holder count wasn't the most important factor, skills would be. People can say planning, which we did a metric ton of. People can say organizing, which we also did. You have bonds, we do not, so only one of us has to plan around that. We have to acknowledge we cannot reliably break a group the same way the other side can. We found easy ways that there would be almost nothing we could do to stop creeping as currently functions. The only counter is shield, so you need to stop the group and shield, a guarantee stall. You could also use creeping and just start removing shields, even if we try to shield, people will get hit. If everyone attacks, it'd be a sweep from creeping.
The fact Ixion lived as long as he did is because we had to give up the standard bunker setup, because you could not reliably act in the lag. Organization became impossible and some people were backed up considerably. If you died, disconnect and reconnect to clear backed up information. Attempting to engage in the opposite, as some of you noticed, if the two groups got to the same room............ it was a total lag out. Organization didn't matter when no one could move. We would have the attack commands prepped and somehow they would never fire, instead being hit 9 times and dying before the command that was already sent went through.
I am not belittling the point. I firmly expected people to use something with no real counters in a group based event. I do not even fault Admin that it was allowed to continue that way, because if they did change it, it would look biased. I think both sides did well in their prep, but no one can deny that the lag greatly changed how every fight could have gone.
It was a good run, you have an ascendant, we are getting an ascendant in recompense to acknowledge the issue. You have not "lost a victory" or had it diminished. The only way you feel you lost something is if your goal was to avoid an ascendant, not to raise. If you are playing to avoid other people, especially at an OOC level, you need to rethink things.
The alliance shift made things interesting, but the abruptness came off as being OOC motivated. It has been acknowledged that this was OOC motivation for the sudden swap. Much of the discussion was not even in game about it. People wanted to make it interesting, that is fine. Although last year, I did it in character, during ascension, not back channel out of character.
Put down the torches and pitchforks, acknowledge both sides WORKED (not just played) hard, and consider that admin are not perfect but are trying to make it better. The real equalizer would be to redo the event, but then you'd lose the ascendant. This gives everyone a win.
I think also raising Ciaran would've been a fine idea, as postulated by Xenthos. In my opinion, he was forced by circumstance to be the runner. Having to give up TA with no recourse, but still being expected to try your best is a tough thing to do that requires maturity and grace.
Ciaran, I wish you'd waited to see what might happen. I hope you find something worthwhile to fill your time if not Lusternia.
I'm really tired of being told my motivation for moving Hallifax was OOC, just because I didn't immediately answer any and all questions from someone my character was not particularly close to. I'm also tired of being told that the entire event was OOC. You can disagree all you like, but I had to sit and discuss the event in detail with another Board member before the raid could even happen, and the dissolution had already come up previously, IC.
Quit assuming other people's motivations on me, please. It's getting old, and it very nearly made me leave the game entirely as well.
Czixi, the Welkin murmurs, "Fight on, My Effervescent Sylph. I will be with you as you do."
Aian Lerit'r, Lead Schematicist exclaims to you, "A *paperwork* emergency, Chairman!
I am noting people directly telling me they were approached ON DISCORD to get them to be willing to break the treaty at that exact time. Who pushed and prodded to get them to be on board? No idea.
It is not about you, and you are the only one who seems to be responding assuming it is just you. It became a city effort, but the reasons behind it have been largely Discord based, which is WHY I asked about it in game. To have a better leg to stand on for justification.
@Ciaran, genuinely sorry to see you go, you were solid PK competition!
I can’t say I understand the competitive angle you discussed in your post, though. Everything about planning and preparation applies equally to both sides.
To me, ascension felt like a hockey game played on melted ice. We all tried to skate around on the arena floor, and all our sticks broke, but that one guy who brought rollerblades wiped the floor with everyone else.
I don’t see the ascension we just played as a competitive event because the platform for playing under normal, competitive circumstances was entirely undermined. Sure, a few tricks worked, but 95% of our skills, reactions, timings, etc. on both sides were unavailable to us. Boring.
So you’re left with replaying the game when the ice freezes, or giving both teams their participation trophy even though Team Rollerblader was technically up 2:1 when the time ran out.
I’d also be fine with ascending Ciaran, though evidently that’s a moot point now... and transparently, I’m just in it for the PK anyway and don’t care much about the outcome. Although ascending a non-seal holder would seem a little out there, even for me.
How can this situation be fixed at this point? I am kind of at a loss. There was a rush to make and post a decision asap. The clearest possible alternative to undoing the decision would have been to raise Ciaran as well, I guess. Something is not as special if it is shared, and giving a "bonus ta" to both sides might have been easier to swallow. The event could have been thus presented as a unified thing for all sides to come together on... but, well. That is not possible now. I know Ciaran asked them about the possibility, no idea if he ever got a reply though.
I guess we can see if people would put their money where their mouth is. Aramel was the runner up for Justice; Aramel was also (arguably) the most key person on our team. If anyone deserves recognition for the win, I would rate her highly. Evette and Jaspet were just short on Death, putting in an incredible performance, and one of them was tagged as MVP by Choros for simply keeping him alive. Tarken was the runner up for War, and ceded the seal to Ciaran because he couldn't see us having a chance and thought someone who did not have a seal should get one.
We are already bending the event here. Would any of you people be willing to accept one of these four as a "runner-up TA" (whatever the heck we are going to call it)?
As I said in my previous post, we're just not seeing the consideration going both ways here. I don't think that this idea is even seriously on the table from the admin pov btw, it is simply a "food for thought" query.
I've refrained from commenting thus far, because it's the forums and mirroring what a few others have said - It's wandering into a fire, but I'm choosing to do that now. Should it be a fire? No. It's a game, but I understand that as humans we all have feelings which can bleed through, just like reading a book etc.
I could add further opinion and comment, but I think it's adding fuel to the fire? I will in some shape or form, but hesitantly.
A) We all suffered the lag. I don't think there is one person who joined that didn't.
We don't know who would have won because Aramel and a few others really did go to town on pulling people together. Those people they banded together also spent out to help. Just like the opposite side did, I presume.
C) What if there was no lag and Parhelion won anyway?
D) People are angry because while we might have won due to pulling together, using up personal time, spending out, staying up late - Everyone worked for him to win. I think people on our side are feeling frustrated, because giving away TA, feels like giving the other side compensation...rather than a win. I don't know either characters very well IC/OOC, so I am not personally going to comment on them.
E) On the other hand - The other side also spent out and used up their personal time and now have a TA. It's two sides of a coin.
With all of that being said; What -is- the resolution? Will there be one? Can there be one? What do we want as a resolution? Raise a second TA? Compensate every single person who participated on -both- sides? I am also well aware that having an opinion doesn't make you right, either.
Moving on: Xenthos Mentioned about making the Discord Official. I support this comment. So many times it devolves into slanging matches and people who want to enjoy the game, on both sides, end up sitting in silence or just QQ'ing permanently. Granted, they have a choice to stay out of OOC, but a lot of things happen on Discord as we can see is emerging. SM have recently made their Discord Official and linked it to the Newbie channel - It's actually a pretty nice addition. While they still have some flinging matches, I don't think it's half as bad. It gives it a formal and moe business like feel (IMO). I'm also increasingly aware of how easy it is for a minority of people (lately) to spread mal-information between Orgs and lambast others, while sitting pretty and unaffected. Yet, when those Org's come together you notice a completely different side and they are actually pretty nice. I won't go into further detail on this, because I'm trying to be thoughtful. It happens on both sides, though. It's bad that we feel the need to request it, because adults should be able to school their behaviours when online.
All-in-all...the game has lost a great guy - Ciaran.
If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.
If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did. This announcement was a shock, encouraging for some and discouraging for others. We were not prepared for it, because it was quite literally dumped on us after the event for which an outcome had already been established, and because we were working with the precedent set by the thirteen other Ascension events that have happened in the past of a single TA rising after the competition ended. Sometimes, you put forth tremendous effort, and you win. Sometimes, you lose. I trust past Ascension competitors understand and accept that (in most cases), because that was the reality. Now, however, recompense is suddenly being offered for issues caused by the game. Game-caused issues have not been absent in past Ascensions, be them lag, skill balances, etc. So where are those second TA's? How is this fair to any of the others who have "come close" to winning in the past, but didn't, for whatever reason?
If things are going to be re-evaluated for future Ascensions in terms of how the event works, that sounds promising! Why, however, is what is essentially a hotfix that damages other, significantly-sized portions of the game being applied instead of waiting for the application of a sounder solution at a later date?
I still do not understand this decision or how it's being perceived as fair to all, especially in regards to past events as I've mentioned above. Perhaps it's considered fair to some parties, and as much as the phrase "special treatment" has been thrown around, that is what it is. Not for Ixion personally, perhaps, but in regards to the event itself - and it's a treatment being applied after all was said and done.
Incidentally, the fact that this is moving forward with the full knowledge that it's hurting one competitive group while appeasing the other after an outcome had already been established is disheartening, to say the least. It's not just an IC blow -- it's also the mere principle of it. It's as disheartening to hear "we did consider your side when making this decision, very thoroughly" with the underlying conclusion of going ahead and trodding over that side anyway. Was that considered the lesser evil? Or would re-running the event on "fairer" playing grounds have been?
Edit: removed a now-moot point.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
I would like to see the event re-run after the lag issues are fixed. Be that later this summer or next year, however long it takes. If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.
Our primary runner just killed himself IC over the handling of this event, so it would be hard to replicate at this point.
I would like to see the event re-run after the lag issues are fixed. Be that later this summer or next year, however long it takes. If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.
Our primary runner just killed himself IC over the handling of this event, so it would be hard to replicate at this point.
Right. My mistake -- removed that bit from the post.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
If your goal was to help raise Choros, congratulations, you achieved your victory.
If your goal was not to raise Choros but to prevent Ixion, I don't know how to say this properly, but I believe you are playing the game wrong. It isn't on me to dictate how someone or anyone plays the game, and I am not quite sure how to articulate exactly the thoughts of why I think you are playing a game first that has a competitive nature second wrong, but I will do my best.
We are not here playing for money, we are not here playing for keeps. We are here to entertain ourselves and have fun as a group. The only investment you have made in this is your time, no one has invested money/time into seeing you succeed. No one has fans cheering them on in a stadium, no one has fans betting $50 riding on your free throws, no one has any reason to deny someone from achieving their goal outside of you achieving that same goal. If you are both going for something, and it only one person gets it, by all means, go all out. If your goal was to prevent someone from doing something that does nothing for you, I am not sure the best way to put it, but you may not be a nice person.
I'll call a spade a spade, and sometimes it takes a jackass to point one out: a lot of you are being a huge jackass to your own teammate.
If you want to take anything from this moment, just be nicer to each other, including friends, sometimes you are not sure how much your voice and/or silence hurts those close to you.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.
If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did.
You just ran circles around yourself and didn't realize it. You've negated your argument while attempting to make an argument. How ANGRY would you and others have been if they said no one was winning, after all that effort? (Answer: Significantly more than anyone is now)
Moving on:
These are the things that people are doing. This is why it is so toxic. Everyone is taking this personally, and can't even formulate a coherent thought, much less present a meaningful argument.
All anyone can do is bash the administration, and tell them how stupid and inconsiderate they are.
(If you're not doing this, then I'm not talking to you. - It pains me that I know I have to put this bit in here. If you still think I'm talking about you, then I probably am.)
So since people seem to have missed it...
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
Most of us have had to deal with enough in our professional lives for years, and would rather help spare the Lusternia administration from it as much as possible. They deal with enough bitching and complaining about how they handle affairs regularly, without having to listen to most of this disparaging dribble.
We do need to look at toxic motivations that have been displayed. While people may say that it's all completely IC, it has been proven that it is not, at least for some players, and that is harmful to the game environment of Lusternia. "Playing to Win" is one thing, but "Playing to Destroy" is quite another.
Game-caused issues have not been absent in past Ascensions, be them lag, skill balances, etc. So where are those second TA's? How is this fair to any of the others who have "come close" to winning in the past, but didn't, for whatever reason?
I agree and will humbly accept my Ascension as well after 2018's path bug.
If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.
If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did.
You just ran circles around yourself and didn't realize it. You've negated your argument while attempting to make an argument. How ANGRY would you and others have been if they said no one was winning, after all that effort? (Answer: Significantly more than anyone is now)
Perhaps you skimmed over the part where I also wrote:
I still do not understand this decision or how it's being perceived as fair to all
which, in essence, means that I do not believe the current decision is fair to all. Nullifying the event, since the lag affected all parties and according to some is the sole reason why the more likely victor didn't achieve victory in the end and apparently gave Celest/Glomdoring/Hallifax some kind of advantage, could be considered fair.
I don't want to see Parhelion stripped of Ascendancy. I don't want Ixion to not have TA if there is hard proof that he would have won it if the game servers behaved (which there isn't). What I do want is this toting around of "fair decisions" to have some semblance of truth to their adjective.
Hopefully that clears things up for you, but regardless, paint me in whichever colours you like in your mind's eye; you're certainly entitled to do so.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
I don't want to see Parhelion stripped of Ascendancy. I don't want Ixion to not have TA if there is hard proof that he would have won it if the game servers behaved (which there isn't). What I do want is this toting around of "fair decisions" to have some semblance of truth to their adjective.
Okay, I'll bring up something that your side pointed to: we were able to handle Creeping (even 3-wyrdenwood Creepings) all right during timequakes and domoths because it wasn't anywhere near as laggy, and we could react in time (well, those of us not running on 500ms ping, anyway...). We can therefore assume that, had the lag not been there, we should have been able to react in time to any and all Wyrdewnood Creeping drops (we didn't, because of the lag).
edit; as an aside, the fact that I am also a TK that uses Super channel also contributed to my less-than-stellar reaction time to Creeping (Super is a 6s eqbal loss).
I don't want to see Parhelion stripped of Ascendancy. I don't want Ixion to not have TA if there is hard proof that he would have won it if the game servers behaved (which there isn't). What I do want is this toting around of "fair decisions" to have some semblance of truth to their adjective.
Okay, I'll bring up something that your side pointed to: we were able to handle Creeping (even 3-wyrdenwood Creepings) all right during timequakes and domoths because it wasn't anywhere near as laggy, and we could react in time (well, those of us not running on 500ms ping, anyway...). We can therefore assume that, had the lag not been there, we should have been able to react in time to any and all Wyrdewnood Creeping drops (we didn't, because of the lag).
edit; as an aside, the fact that I am also a TK that uses Super channel also contributed to my less-than-stellar reaction time to Creeping (Super is a 6s eqbal loss).
Myself losing the staff after we stripped it from Choros wouldn't have necessarily meant a win, I don't think anybody can say 100% if the lag wasn't there Ixion would have won either. But it certainly would have changed the final stages and could have given a win. The admin's decision here is acknowledging that fact that we can't say with certainty who would have won between Choros and Ixion - the two competing sealholders.
I'm sorry to see Ciaran or any other player leaving the game over this decision.
I think its one that was necessary and that this thread could use a healthy dose less toxicity and gaslighting.
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Where is it stated that Ixion would receive the TA of Time? As for what I know, he was the Sealbearer of Chaos. Considering that this Ascension has been particularly chaotic, it would make sense that Ixion would receive TA of Chaos instead.
Xenthos. I understand that you are a long time player and have a pretty vast knowledge of a lot of Lusternia's workings. That being said... why not become an Epheremal to become a part of the team? I understand that you have affected quite a few decisions in the past, but we are only allowed to do so much as players.
Transparency of Lusternia's developer actions: Yes
As players, we should only be able to affect what the outcome of an event is In-character. Period.
Afollia hit a lot of key points in her post. It made me personally happy to read and see it as such.
To Orael & Aonia amongst the other team members;
I'm sorry that this Ascension has caused so much strife in your world.
I'm just sad.
Tarken said:
This was one of the first things that was brought up when we discussed it. We said that had Ixion won while Choros was still at 700ish points, it was unlikely we would have offered him this same opportunity but had Ixion won after Uzriel grabbed the staff, and they were both at 3300 points, we would have certainly considered it, and likely done it. The closeness of the contest was a major factor in our decision.
@Ciaran and the rest of Equinox - I understand your frustration here better than most. I personally know what it feels like to have all your efforts, planning, preparation, rallying the team, planning for contingencies and how to combat specific strategies, etc, all thrown out the window and your win attributed to lag. We're not trying to push some narrative that you didn't work hard or that you wouldn't have won without it. The issue is that we simply don't know because the score was too close. It's quite possible that the only reason Ixion got within 4 minutes was entirely because of the lag just as much as it's possible that Choros did win because of the lag. The issue with the level of lag that you faced in this situation quite possibly did affect the outcome. That level of lag starts putting much more emphasis on luck than it does on skill. Ciaran even says himself that in the end, it was more about who was closest than who was fastest.
I am disappointed that we're losing anyone over this, but we are looking at losing people whichever way we decided.
The last point I want to address is this. This was not Parhelion or Ixion's decision to make, the decision was solely our decision. This isn't on the other admin who participated in the discussion or any of the players. The responsibility for it lies squarely on our shoulders. We did consult Ixion and Parhelion and consider their input, but they didn't make this decision. We did.
I appear to have failed to properly convey this with my post.
The 'narrative' we're following here is one that both sides have acknowledged as an issue - that the lag played a major part and it all but certainly had an effect on the outcome. Both sides have acknowledged that it affected their ability to perform, Both sides have acknowledged that it pushed things more towards luck than skill. This isn't us taking the 'pushed narrative from one side', if that was the case, we'd be nerfing chemwoods yesterday. It's us considering all sides and making the decision we feel is best for the game overall.
I, unfortunately, do not have more time this morning to respond to more - but I will monitor throughout the day and respond this evening when I have some time.
It hasn't been said, no. But this an important point of the arguement. How does raising Ixion to TA differ from Choros? Choros is the one who won Ascension (regardless of why). That's first place. So, there are a few choices. Give Ixion TA of Chaos (and the 3 free powers that come with that) and have 2 first places and it is like Ascension never really happen. Or give Ixion TA of Time (or something similar) that gives 0 free powers and does feel more second place on the surface until you get to the whole 'special event and unique title' part which is much more of a first place feeling. It is just I don't see how the admin are going to do the RP this and not have it feel like Ixion got the better prize.
So, I will say something new.
I came into Ascension on the assumption of a loss, because seal holder count wasn't the most important factor, skills would be. People can say planning, which we did a metric ton of. People can say organizing, which we also did. You have bonds, we do not, so only one of us has to plan around that. We have to acknowledge we cannot reliably break a group the same way the other side can. We found easy ways that there would be almost nothing we could do to stop creeping as currently functions. The only counter is shield, so you need to stop the group and shield, a guarantee stall. You could also use creeping and just start removing shields, even if we try to shield, people will get hit. If everyone attacks, it'd be a sweep from creeping.
The fact Ixion lived as long as he did is because we had to give up the standard bunker setup, because you could not reliably act in the lag. Organization became impossible and some people were backed up considerably. If you died, disconnect and reconnect to clear backed up information. Attempting to engage in the opposite, as some of you noticed, if the two groups got to the same room............ it was a total lag out. Organization didn't matter when no one could move. We would have the attack commands prepped and somehow they would never fire, instead being hit 9 times and dying before the command that was already sent went through.
I am not belittling the point. I firmly expected people to use something with no real counters in a group based event. I do not even fault Admin that it was allowed to continue that way, because if they did change it, it would look biased. I think both sides did well in their prep, but no one can deny that the lag greatly changed how every fight could have gone.
It was a good run, you have an ascendant, we are getting an ascendant in recompense to acknowledge the issue. You have not "lost a victory" or had it diminished. The only way you feel you lost something is if your goal was to avoid an ascendant, not to raise. If you are playing to avoid other people, especially at an OOC level, you need to rethink things.
The alliance shift made things interesting, but the abruptness came off as being OOC motivated. It has been acknowledged that this was OOC motivation for the sudden swap. Much of the discussion was not even in game about it. People wanted to make it interesting, that is fine. Although last year, I did it in character, during ascension, not back channel out of character.
Put down the torches and pitchforks, acknowledge both sides WORKED (not just played) hard, and consider that admin are not perfect but are trying to make it better. The real equalizer would be to redo the event, but then you'd lose the ascendant. This gives everyone a win.
Quit assuming other people's motivations on me, please. It's getting old, and it very nearly made me leave the game entirely as well.
Czixi, the Welkin murmurs, "Fight on, My Effervescent Sylph. I will be with you as you do."
Aian Lerit'r, Lead Schematicist exclaims to you, "A *paperwork* emergency, Chairman!
It is not about you, and you are the only one who seems to be responding assuming it is just you. It became a city effort, but the reasons behind it have been largely Discord based, which is WHY I asked about it in game. To have a better leg to stand on for justification.
Are you back? I'd like to see a reply to the post Maligorn referenced, if you have any thoughts to add.
I can’t say I understand the competitive angle you discussed in your post, though. Everything about planning and preparation applies equally to both sides.
To me, ascension felt like a hockey game played on melted ice. We all tried to skate around on the arena floor, and all our sticks broke, but that one guy who brought rollerblades wiped the floor with everyone else.
I don’t see the ascension we just played as a competitive event because the platform for playing under normal, competitive circumstances was entirely undermined. Sure, a few tricks worked, but 95% of our skills, reactions, timings, etc. on both sides were unavailable to us. Boring.
So you’re left with replaying the game when the ice freezes, or giving both teams their participation trophy even though Team Rollerblader was technically up 2:1 when the time ran out.
I’d also be fine with ascending Ciaran, though evidently that’s a moot point now... and transparently, I’m just in it for the PK anyway and don’t care much about the outcome. Although ascending a non-seal holder would seem a little out there, even for me.
I could add further opinion and comment, but I think it's adding fuel to the fire? I will in some shape or form, but hesitantly.
A) We all suffered the lag. I don't think there is one person who joined that didn't.
C) What if there was no lag and Parhelion won anyway?
D) People are angry because while we might have won due to pulling together, using up personal time, spending out, staying up late - Everyone worked for him to win. I think people on our side are feeling frustrated, because giving away TA, feels like giving the other side compensation...rather than a win. I don't know either characters very well IC/OOC, so I am not personally going to comment on them.
E) On the other hand - The other side also spent out and used up their personal time and now have a TA. It's two sides of a coin.
With all of that being said; What -is- the resolution? Will there be one? Can there be one? What do we want as a resolution? Raise a second TA? Compensate every single person who participated on -both- sides? I am also well aware that having an opinion doesn't make you right, either.
Moving on: Xenthos Mentioned about making the Discord Official. I support this comment. So many times it devolves into slanging matches and people who want to enjoy the game, on both sides, end up sitting in silence or just QQ'ing permanently. Granted, they have a choice to stay out of OOC, but a lot of things happen on Discord as we can see is emerging. SM have recently made their Discord Official and linked it to the Newbie channel - It's actually a pretty nice addition. While they still have some flinging matches, I don't think it's half as bad. It gives it a formal and moe business like feel (IMO). I'm also increasingly aware of how easy it is for a minority of people (lately) to spread mal-information between Orgs and lambast others, while sitting pretty and unaffected. Yet, when those Org's come together you notice a completely different side and they are actually pretty nice. I won't go into further detail on this, because I'm trying to be thoughtful. It happens on both sides, though. It's bad that we feel the need to request it, because adults should be able to school their behaviours when online.
All-in-all...the game has lost a great guy - Ciaran.
That's my two-penneth worth.
If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.
If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did. This announcement was a shock, encouraging for some and discouraging for others. We were not prepared for it, because it was quite literally dumped on us after the event for which an outcome had already been established, and because we were working with the precedent set by the thirteen other Ascension events that have happened in the past of a single TA rising after the competition ended. Sometimes, you put forth tremendous effort, and you win. Sometimes, you lose. I trust past Ascension competitors understand and accept that (in most cases), because that was the reality. Now, however, recompense is suddenly being offered for issues caused by the game. Game-caused issues have not been absent in past Ascensions, be them lag, skill balances, etc. So where are those second TA's? How is this fair to any of the others who have "come close" to winning in the past, but didn't, for whatever reason?
If things are going to be re-evaluated for future Ascensions in terms of how the event works, that sounds promising! Why, however, is what is essentially a hotfix that damages other, significantly-sized portions of the game being applied instead of waiting for the application of a sounder solution at a later date?
I still do not understand this decision or how it's being perceived as fair to all, especially in regards to past events as I've mentioned above. Perhaps it's considered fair to some parties, and as much as the phrase "special treatment" has been thrown around, that is what it is. Not for Ixion personally, perhaps, but in regards to the event itself - and it's a treatment being applied after all was said and done.
Incidentally, the fact that this is moving forward with the full knowledge that it's hurting one competitive group while appeasing the other after an outcome had already been established is disheartening, to say the least. It's not just an IC blow -- it's also the mere principle of it. It's as disheartening to hear "we did consider your side when making this decision, very thoroughly" with the underlying conclusion of going ahead and trodding over that side anyway. Was that considered the lesser evil? Or would re-running the event on "fairer" playing grounds have been?
Edit: removed a now-moot point.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
However most notably I just have to state the obvious here really fast -Rancoura, how did you go from this
to this
You just ran circles around yourself and didn't realize it. You've negated your argument while attempting to make an argument. How ANGRY would you and others have been if they said no one was winning, after all that effort? (Answer: Significantly more than anyone is now)
Moving on:
These are the things that people are doing. This is why it is so toxic. Everyone is taking this personally, and can't even formulate a coherent thought, much less present a meaningful argument.
All anyone can do is bash the administration, and tell them how stupid and inconsiderate they are.
(If you're not doing this, then I'm not talking to you. - It pains me that I know I have to put this bit in here. If you still think I'm talking about you, then I probably am.)
So since people seem to have missed it...
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
Most of us have had to deal with enough in our professional lives for years, and would rather help spare the Lusternia administration from it as much as possible. They deal with enough bitching and complaining about how they handle affairs regularly, without having to listen to most of this disparaging dribble.
p.s. Silvanus, nice post.
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Perhaps you skimmed over the part where I also wrote:
which, in essence, means that I do not believe the current decision is fair to all. Nullifying the event, since the lag affected all parties and according to some is the sole reason why the more likely victor didn't achieve victory in the end and apparently gave Celest/Glomdoring/Hallifax some kind of advantage, could be considered fair.
I don't want to see Parhelion stripped of Ascendancy. I don't want Ixion to not have TA if there is hard proof that he would have won it if the game servers behaved (which there isn't). What I do want is this toting around of "fair decisions" to have some semblance of truth to their adjective.
Hopefully that clears things up for you, but regardless, paint me in whichever colours you like in your mind's eye; you're certainly entitled to do so.
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
edit; as an aside, the fact that I am also a TK that uses Super channel also contributed to my less-than-stellar reaction time to Creeping (Super is a 6s eqbal loss).
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I'm sorry to see Ciaran or any other player leaving the game over this decision.
I think its one that was necessary and that this thread could use a healthy dose less toxicity and gaslighting.
This was not only included in our planning, we noted it as a reason shielding was not a real counter to creeping. 1 person can counter 30.
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