New Intro Discussion

Ieptix · December 2013

Discussion thread for the new intro!

Lerad · December 2013

Hrmm, I just gave it a test run. Decent enough storyline, fast and easy to get through (finished it in 10 minutes flat, though I didn't need to read any of the helpfiles it asked me to, so that sped it up), and it also gives a walkthrough on the traditionally most troublesome areas of the newton quests - getting to the top of the mountain.

Some preliminary thoughts:

Pretty much everything can also be done by clicking the links, which is definitely helpful. I am concerned, however, that some newbies might mistake clicking to be the only form of gameplay, and not understand that typing is required - and end up getting confused when they are out of the tour. I suggest having a note somewhere early on to make that slightly more obvious. Alternatively, if it is possible to tweak the gmcp links to not automatically send the text to the game, but just populate it into the input bar (so the newbie has to press enter to have it sent) that might be more intuitive and need no extra prompting, but I'm guessing that's probably too troublesome to do.

No mention was made about checking one's own stats via score/stat/ab, though. That might or might not be important, depending on your point of view. A suggestion I have, is to automatically have a newbie who completed the tour be given a prompt that says: TAKE A LOOK AT HELP COMMANDS TO SEE SOME BASIC COMMANDS YOU CAN ENTER! And then call up that helpfile automatically, so they don't have to do it, in case they miss that prompt or something.

I think (not sure) that the code for the new intro appears to spawn the finks needed when they walk into a room. And maybe this is the reason, but I had a streak of killing 20 or so finks without getting a widget, then getting a widget for my next 3 finks. (the numbers might be slightly exaggerated, I can't remember exactly, but it was at least 10 finks) Not sure if newbies will get confused, but if it is possible, a more consistent spawning of widgets might be warranted. Something like, first fink doesn't drop a widget, second fink does, third fink doesn't, etc. That will make them understand that not every fink will have the quest item needed, but not have them be unduly stuck doing the same task and starting to wonder if they were doing anything wrong.

A little more explanation about combat and balances might be needed, yes. Currently nothing is said, so the newbie is assumed to understand they can't move while off-bal. Thankfully, though, the balance taken for swinging that claymore isn't all that long, so it doesn't matter that much, especially if they take the time to read after they click.

Idrazil · December 2013

Absolutely agree with everything Lerad said.

1) The intro currently can be done just by click click click click...At one point you suddenly have to input text when fighting instead of the clicking. Clicking is not the most engaging gameplay and does no good to the real complexity of the game. I would say offer less "obvious" hints, let the new players have some space to explore a but on their own instead of just clicking it all through. Like having a more general hint type of "If you are not sure what to do check this hint here" or giving the exact hints after 30 seconds of inactivity.

2) During the fights if you are slow or unsure what to do your health suffers from attacks and suddenly "drink health" hint appears. As Lerad suggested, more information is needed on own vitals and generally on fighting.

3) Also agree with the balance and equilibrium comment, you click click click and suddenly you cannot and you have the balance or equilibrium message and while players might be smart enough to understand it, no context or information about is provided by the game itself.

To summarize... I like it as it reminds me of the old introduction to Achaea many years ago but you need balance it to give more freedom to the new souls to explore the map and have some sense of achievement of their own. Maybe not red light Attack Fink Here but highlight the presence of the fink in the room without explicitly saying to attack it at first. People will not even read the help files as it is now but just click through.

Shaddus · December 2013

I haven't actually read any of the other comments indepth, but I've noticed a few random things. I don't seem to have been given a backpack, for one.

The achievements don't seem to always give you the "Achievement: You have Blah Blah" line on some achievements. Learning your Planar from Atropos doesn't seem to trigger the "Learn a Lesson" achievement, either.

If the client on the website asks me for my email when I start, why does the registration still pop up? I know this is a silly question, but it seems redundant.

Parua · December 2013

So I decided to play the new intro like an impatient trubie, and just click the links as they are provided.

First, the links are big and red and distracting, and make me want to click on them before I've even read anything the guide has presented me with. This leads into clicking through without really seeing what it is I am doing. I am also going to echo that there is entirely too many things that are clickable, and it's not reinforced nearly enough that I am going to be typing in the game way more than I'll ever click anything. When I suddenly had to start typing, it was jarring, and a trubie would be ill prepared for that, if they have been clicking the whole time.

Secondly, I am not prompted to look how to GL or LOOK at my surroundings, so when I entered the battlefield on Lolliprin, my newbie is now stuck, as it's not been presented to me. Especially since the fink that was there left as soon as I entered, so if I click attack fink, there is the standard "no fink here " message, but no suggestion to go looking for more. Also, arm balance is not explained or presented in any way.

Following the links, I have ended up attacking things and losing health, and not been prompted to sip vials, or even really explained what they are. However you said you are adding more in on that, so I'll leave it as that.

edit - I got prompted when I was almost dead. I would suggest not waiting till near-death to prompt health potion sipping, and explaining it, and potion balance, would be ideal before going out and attacking things. (would also like to see being taught to PROBE before attacking things, too.)

It also greatly concerns me that we are prompted to start attacking things before learning how to set up the prompt. Even with the HTML5, though the bars are displayed right beneath the text entry field, I really believe that either a)having newbies start with basic prompt or b)teaching them to config prompt before attacking anything would be a good idea.

As an aside, not really related to the newbie intro, but the Illuminati have still not put in the racial preferences for their guild. Probably should get on them about that.

I would like to see a bit put in about wearing clothes, checking backpack again. I would -really- like to see a brief rundown on how to buy things from a shop. Like, have Clotho take you to Trader Bob and buy the basics so you are prepared to take on the shadow, or some such. Would be an excellent time to explain about prompt, Stat, Score and how to PROBE things.

Last thing, really, I would -really- like seeing the descriptors for Serenwilde and Magnagora change. City of Evil is too black and white for Lusternia, where everything is shades of grey, and can be misleading. "Neutral forest" just sounds boring as heck, and a bit misleading also.

Sheia · December 2013

I used path walk throughout the intro as I figured many newbies would. The path from Chanterelle to Smoke Mountain does take you through the lake, and since newbies don't have swimming or treading at this point I did choke down some water. I'm not sure if the path walking can be changed easily, so perhaps just a message not to worry about drowning when that happens and to sip some health. All of the other things I noticed have been mentioned in posts above.

My only other concerns about it are minor, and may simply be a matter of taste, but I think the COMMANDS being in red is a bit harsh on the eye. Maybe the bright white would be better.

I also feel like it would be prudent to gag some of the more unnecessary(at this stage) info, such as gaining achievements and maybe even the path walk movement, for people who have never played a text game before it can intimidate them. Though I admit it may be better to prepare them for how fast text can fly at you later in the game.

Overall I think it is great and I'm glad it takes you all the way to the top of Smoke Mountain.

Andala · December 2013

Most of what I was going to say was covered by people above. But just to feel like I've earned my five credits, here are the notes I jotted down as I was doing the tour.

1) Might be nice to have a hint to pick up gold dropped by mobs.

2) 100% agree with everyone else above about including a bit about vitals and healing, or at least checking your score. The HTML client has the little health bar things, but they're not super informative, and people who aren't using the HTML client will have nothing to go by until they die. The first time your character receives any kind of damage, it would be nice to have an explanation on different ways you can view your health (bar, prompt, score) and ways to heal yourself.

3) Like Parua, I stood at the battlegrounds for awhile, waiting for some prompting on how to move or find the finks, before I thought about greeting Atropos. Movement without use of the map/pathfinding and how to LOOK/QL isn't explained unless you ask Atropos specifically about it. There should be an explanation back in Newton Caverns when you first have to walk/pathfind to Cranky on how movement works. For people not using the HTML client, a quick snippet on how you can view MAPS would be nice too.

4) I second the request for learning how shops work, e.g. from Trader Bob. The Aetherplex would sure be a useful thing to learn from the very beginning, though that may be outside the scope of a newbie tour. But clothes, backpacks, etc. All useful things!

5) Other things that would be useful to cover: inventory, probing things, SAYS/TELLS (I never said anything apart from using the numbers), and balance.

Overall, it was good! I like that it tried to keep everything pretty simple to avoid overwhelming a true newbie, but I do think a certain level of detail would still be useful.

Daedalion · December 2013

Pretty much everything everyone else said, I'm probably going to overlap a few things, but I'll say them anyway.

Throughout the entire thing I was never told to turn my prompt on. If I'm not using a graphical client, actually, even if I am, this is a problem. For me, anyway. I wasn't even told to turn my mapview on, which I thought was standard.

I didn't get a backpack, I would like a backpack.

I was never told once the importance of picking up what I kill. Maybe say something like you can turn them in for gold? Even having a side route to show you? Instead of just a one track pace up the mountain for an anti-climactic ending. The entire thing was so fast I don't remember half of what I was told to do.. or if I was even told any important information. There is practicly nothing forcing you to absorb any information other than what you have to click on, thus lessening the overall purpose of a tutorial.

I kind of liked the last intro. I'm not entirely sure why collegiums were completely divorced from the intro. I would like to see more information, basicly stuff that isn't all Newton Caverns, stuff they would need to know after they can't kill finks anymore.

I would have more ideas, but honestly, my experience was interrupted by a creepy novice trying to teleport to me for an entire 20 minutes. Serves me right for rolling a female noob.

Ieptix · December 2013

Lerad said:

snip

Re: Typing and links: I'll add a hint towards the beginning to the effect of "typing is the primary mode of interaction with Lusternia, but some interaction with the world is possible by clicking on special links". As for placing the text in the command line instead of sending it to the game, I am unsure if the HTML5 client (or any other clients, for that matter) is set up to allow for the PROMPT argument for MXP's SEND tag. Also, if this change is possible, it very likely wouldn't be blanket for the entire tour, but particular commands that would require the newbie to supply more information.

Re: Widgets: They should be dropping off the bandits with a 2/3 chance. As for the spawning, the way it works (here and with the hogs in part 2) is that a bandit will spawn if the newbie reaches a certain room without encountering other bandits. If he/she stumbles upon one beforehand, they'll be prompted to fight it there.

Idrazil said:

snip

Re: freedom: The intent with the Atropos section is to allow more freedom of exploration and so forth, after the player has learned a bit about the basics. I can look into allowing slightly more vague hints in this section (mainly your suggestion of a more general "Hey, look, there is a fink. Right there. THERE IS A FINK RIGHT HERE" rather than "THERE IS A FINK KILL IT RIGHT NOW!").

Shaddus said:

snip

Re: achievements: If there's a problem with achievements in general, please file a bug in-game. As for the learning one specifically, the tour doesn't use the actual learning code, which is why it's not triggered.

Re: email/registration: Registration is still required because providing the email at char creation in the client is not the same as registering. I do not know why the client prompts for email at creation; that sort of stuff is largely outside my purview.

Sheia said:

snip

Re: Pathfinding/Drowning: I think I'm actually going to inquire about a thing that will obviate this entirely. If that doesn't happen, I'll try and come up with something.

Re: Command link colour: I'll look into it.

Ieptix · December 2013

Parua said:
snip

Re: LOOK, etc: I'll look (oh ho ho, oh yes I did) into having the hint on movement stuff triggered the first time the newbie arrives at the battleground.

Re: Potions and such: The current hint you're getting near-death is something that predates the tour. I'll be adding other things that will be more helpful than almost dying. The prompt will be included in this, though I'll note that, at least when I made my test character, prompts seemed to be disabled entirely in the client, so I'm not sure how helpful it'll be in that case. That said, I'll make inquiries about the prompt setup, since it may not be intentional or may be possible to get changed, but this isn't my call.

Re: backpack and items and stuff: Large amounts of messing about with items and such were things that we were specifically told to avoid. I can look into having something post-intro that will explain shops, however.

Andala said:

snip

Re: Maps: I'll add info on using the MAP command to the exploration info.

Eritheyl · December 2013

Seconding the want for a nudge towards using map/mapview, or just having mapview turned on by default. Blindly pathwalking everywhere doesn't do a real novice any good, at least having the graphical depiction would show them that it isn't much of a stretch to just go off and explore rather than looking for the instant routes you're spoon-fed throughout most of the tutorial.

While I find this tutorial a lot less annoying than the last, I have to say...there really isn't anything to learn aside from how to kill things and pathfind until the very end. Even the pathfinding is a bit sketchy, since you aren't taught to use landmarks to find your own paths, just to click and be whisked away.

3/10, but I like where it's headed. Much more fluid than the mess from before!

Ieptix · December 2013

The problem with mapview is that it takes up a lot of screen real estate, especially when the HTML5 client has an embedded map built right into it. Will definitely be including info on maps in general, though.

Daedalion · December 2013

I have a question, as it seems to be that this intro is being built specificly for the HTML5 client.

Is this intro only going to be shown to people using this client? Because I don't use this client, I seriously doubt there are a large amount of people who do use this client. I'm not putting the client down, I'm just saying that some information that is being left out is vital if you arn't using the client because it doesn't go with the client.

If this intro is retroactive, are we then operating under the assumption that all newbies will be using the HTML5 client?

Eritheyl · December 2013

Daedalion said:

Is this intro only going to be shown to people using this client? Because I don't use this client, I seriously doubt there are a large amount of people who do use this client.

Yeah, despite the recommendation I didn't bother myself. It's a nice option, but eh! Can't think solely of the people who might be using it, or the people who might not, there needs to be a middle ground - I still think that a mapview hint is necessary (not just generic map info), otherwise it could be ages until the newbie connecting via another client has any idea how to find there way around without just spamming map and mushing exits.

(If that's what you were meaning by 'info on maps in general', though, nothing to see here!)

Ssaliss · December 2013

I'm actually thinking plenty of newbies will use the HTML5 client when they first test the game. Sure, they'll probably download a stand-alone client at some point, but it's not the first thing they do (unless they've played MUDs in the past, at which point the intro is probably pretty familiar for them).

Kethaera · December 2013

-Not a whole lot of new stuff to add, definitely agree about mentioning the need to sip health. The message comes when you're nearly dead, with not enough time to sip health. And after you fake-die(yep, I did) there's no mention of checking vials or sipping. Really should be.

-Some of the messages have a lot of information that scrolls by very quickly. Suggest slowing it down slightly or having the option to change the speed.

-For the newtonking quest, I was told I'd need about 10 finks, but only 3 is needed.

-I don't know if this is Celest-specific(I tried two newbies and it didn't happen with the Magnagora one), but I received a 'herb drop' letter immediately after logging in with nothing inside it.

-I kind of wish there was a fink version of this available either based on org or by choice(I.E., Cranky or Finko might know where that shadow went). Options are good.

-Trying to turn off hints doesn't actually work: The hint to find the finks still works as normal, but the others(I didn't check if this was true for ALL the other hints, but it was true for quite a few of them) give a message of [HINT]: Unhandled hint case: <whatever the hint identifier is>.

I like that it's shorter and gets newbies involved in the Newton quest, as I think the quests are one of the best aspects of Lusternia. The collegium quests should be emphasized more though, imo, with a suggestion to TELEPORT COLLEGIUM at the end.

Ieptix · December 2013

Daedalion said:

snip

The only real thing added by the HTML5 client is that it has guaranteed built-in support for MXP links, which isn't an assumption we can make generally (since clients can disable MXP, or simply not have support for it, etc.) That said, it's rather expected that actually true newbies (i.e. people who've never played a MUD before) are extremely likely to be starting from the HTML5 client, since that's what's accessible from the website. What vital information do you feel is being left out by playing through in a third-party client?

Eritheyl said:

snip

Mapview will be mentioned, but making it enabled by default will not happen. Sorry if I was ambiguous.

Kethaera said:

snip

Re: Fink numbers/health sipping: Read the first post in the thread. :P

Re: Speed: I'd actually forgotten that I'd reduced the delay between automatic transitions to make testing during development less arduous. I'll go back and adjust those times.

Re: Hints: The hints during the intro can't actually be disabled. I should probably disable the HINTS command for players in the intro.

Re: Unhandled hints: Please either post or send to me via message any IDs for unhandled hints. That shouldn't be happening, and I haven't run across the issue myself, so it is mildly troubling. EDIT: I've added logging to catch any that crop up in the future, but would still appreciate it if you have a list of any you already stumbled upon, in case it's some really finicky corner case and not some silly typo somewhere.

Kethaera · December 2013

Ieptix said:

Re: Unhandled hints: Please either post or send to me via message any IDs for unhandled hints. That shouldn't be happening, and I haven't run across the issue myself, so it is mildly troubling. EDIT: I've added logging to catch any that crop up in the future, but would still appreciate it if you have a list of any you already stumbled upon, in case it's some really finicky corner case and not some silly typo somewhere.

fink_here was one. Unfortunately I lost the list I made earlier.

Ahren · December 2013

Just something I didn't see anyone else comment on. When putting the stone in the lava pool it is immediately fished out, unless that is going to be kept that I would recomended prompting them to get it from the pool or they'll be confused later when they try and get to the mountain top again.

Idrazil · December 2013

Re: freedom: The intent with the Atropos section is to allow more freedom of exploration and so forth, after the player has learned a bit about the basics. I can look into allowing slightly more vague hints in this section (mainly your suggestion of a more general "Hey, look, there is a fink. Right there. THERE IS A FINK RIGHT HERE" rather than "THERE IS A FINK KILL IT RIGHT NOW!").

The problem with Atropos section is that after getting used to all the clicking you are suddenly left hanging there alone, no Look or Movement or Fighting or Sipping explanation. So it happens that instead of a freedom after the clicking conditioning you are left spoiled and unprepared. Maybe the most simple solution is to get rid of the links actually in all these red hints? Just make them UN-CLICKABLE. Also, maybe these hints can be articulated in speech by the guides.

This way you force them:

to actually read
input the commands as they will do in the actual game.

Shaddus · December 2013

I know some people have mentioned this in passing, but would it be possible to suggest/introduce the prompt somewhere in the intro?

Daraius · December 2013

It was mentioned earlier that clickable links will be finding their way into other parts of the game, so you're unlikely to see them removed from the intro.

Xenthos · December 2013

Daraius said:

It was mentioned earlier that clickable links will be finding their way into other parts of the game, so you're unlikely to see them removed from the intro.

Uh... we've had clickable links throughout the game for quite a while now. I can click directions on my client to move, various HELP files referenced by guides are clickable...

Does that not function on mudlet or something?

Ssaliss · December 2013

Depends on if Mudlet has implemented (and is using) MXP or not, I guess. I know I haven't bothered implementing it in my client, so I have no clue how prevalent those things are...

Daraius · December 2013

I'm referring to this, specifically.

Isune said:
Daraius said:

I also feel this introduction misrepresents the game a bit. Nowhere else do you click links to ask questions or complete objectives.
This is a feature being worked into newer quests and areas, and a feature that is being retroactively added to existing areas in a slow, but eventual process.

Click-to-win things.

Parua · December 2013

Mudlet has MXP

the trouble is that the MXP in the intro is -way- more prevalent than in the game, and more importantly, handled differently.

I can click on things in IH to probe them, but nothing has a button to pathwalk me somewhere, or autokill by clicking a link.

Daem · December 2013

Idrazil said:

Re: freedom: The intent with the Atropos section is to allow more freedom of exploration and so forth, after the player has learned a bit about the basics. I can look into allowing slightly more vague hints in this section (mainly your suggestion of a more general "Hey, look, there is a fink. Right there. THERE IS A FINK RIGHT HERE" rather than "THERE IS A FINK KILL IT RIGHT NOW!").

The problem with Atropos section is that after getting used to all the clicking you are suddenly left hanging there alone, no Look or Movement or Fighting or Sipping explanation. So it happens that instead of a freedom after the clicking conditioning you are left spoiled and unprepared. Maybe the most simple solution is to get rid of the links actually in all these red hints? Just make them UN-CLICKABLE. Also, maybe these hints can be articulated in speech by the guides.

This way you force them:
to actually read
input the commands as they will do in the actual game.

It's like that video on training crows. You give them everything then slowly start taking away things so the person can figure out how to play effectively.

Also I really love the direction of the new intro taking us through Newton and showing how to get to the top. I like the feel of the intro and the direction you took this time.

Aislynn · December 2013

Overall I like it. Most of the things that I noticed have already been mentioned, the rest are little things but I'll put them here anyway:

I was asked to take my mending from my pack but never told that there was a healing in there as well (I know this was discussed earlier) so definitely some buff up on basic healing.

Initially you are instructed to kick or punch the shadow. Then the command instruction changes to "attack" for the second battle, while in the third your guide tells you "You have a more advanced attack now. Kick the shadow." While this may seem unimportant, perhaps starting with the basic "attack" and progressing to others or just keep it consistent in each battle.

After learning the initial set of lessons, you see which skills you gained but there is no explanation of AB <skill> until after the explanation of the rift when you are told to check your Planar abilities and even that is brief. Perhaps move the bit about checking skills to the time when you learn the lessons and then have a reminder at the rift portion that you can view the ability by using the command.

After selecting my race and Guild, nothing was triggered to advance the walk-through. I had to manually "remember" and continue.

Also, it looks like everyone else's intro stopped after Newton. The Guide followed me all the way through the Collegium... so I kept going thinking that was being built in as a part of it (don't judge me haha). After I finished the collegium quests was when I got the "You finished the introductory tour" message and all that.

In going through the Collegium portion of it (this newbie being my second character ever I probably shouldn't have picked Hallifax - I never can find anything there), you are prompted to TELEPORT COLLEGIUM but once you arrive there you are given no instructions on how to proceed. Perhaps add a bit about the residents who teach you exchange for assistance or whatnot to give some direction.

Last but not least - using intro_credits didn't work. It just kept giving me the invalid command error

Shaddus · December 2013

Did you do the intro, or the newest version?

Ieptix · December 2013

Aislynn said:

snip

You ran through the current intro, not the new one. You need to SWITCH_TO_NEW_TOUR after creating your character.

Shaddus · December 2013

Aislynn said:

In going through the Collegium portion of it (this newbie being my second character ever I probably shouldn't have picked Hallifax - I never can find anything there)

That's why you prod someone to show you around. It's not hard if you live there

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