It does not seem like the concerns being given are being taken into account, and are generally ignored.
I have stopped posting to the overhaul as it does not appear to do anything but make present combat worse. Simple is not good if it is simply overpowered.
I will bow out till it appears to be changing for the better. The current overhaul does not fix a single problem anyone has listed.
It's a really good opportunity to fix some of the longstanding problems in combat, but I have to agree that it's not actually taking that opportunity, many of the issues are worse.
Now I've really only casually looked over the changes, and please noone shoot me for this observation but I feel as if it's a complete game changer, and we're being beta tested for a different game style in a different game >_>
Aff stack blocking in the current iteration of the overhaul is certainly overpowered, but it's going to be unique to all IRE games while still retaining the same basic concepts. As a result, I believe it has a lot of potential to be much more strategical and tactical than our current system, and any other IRE combat system as well. Looking at the overhaul as a totally new system, it starting in the right direction. What we need to do now is to continue to provide feedback and steer it to a more balanced state.
As for suggestions, we still don't have enough data, but the concerns about general affliction speed is valid. Too many afflictions, too quickly, for the cure speeds the overhaul has. Other than slowing down the sheer speed of afflictions, another thing that can be done is to greatly nerf the levels 1-3 of an affliction stack. Make them do close to nothing, (one-time effect, one-time damage etc) and we may see a more decent balance of speed, where everyone is always hovering around level 1-2 in a few stacks, but just being there isn't going to cripple them and make them unable to do anything.
That's a potentially very good idea, Lerad. I like the thought of the first 2/3 levels of the stack doing little to nothing. It'd make them be mild nuisances, especially with passives that build up to L3 and nothing more. If something's a 1/3 and the affliction is already at 3+, perhaps have it fire off the L3 effect?
I want to bump this thread, now that another shell has been released.
Any feedback on our feedback about problems with the system? I made an indepth post a page back (here), in which I outline four major problems I see in the system as it stands now, and individual (conceptual) fixes for those problems, as well as a suggestion for a retooling of the base mechanic that fixes all four problems in one stroke, and provides for a more interesting and engaging combat experience. It doesn't seem like anyone read it, though!
Any discussion about the problems I and others have raised would be great! Another shell came out, displaying all of the same issues the previous shells had, which is worrying. I just don't want anyone to think that this thread being dead means that all the players like the way things are going!
EDIT: For instance, I like Lerad's suggestion. It has a similar feel to mine (need to buildup for meaningful affs) without introducing a weight mechanic. I don't think Lerad's solution goes far enough, but it would help to address some of the issues I raise in my post. Less powerful afftracks would mean that guilds would need unique, non-direct-affliction mechanics to support their afflictions, stretching the limited number of afflictions!
I've pretty much given up at this stage. There's just a massive lack of interest right now and those times a few of us have tried to test them out, they have just been so buggy to the point of being unusable.
Also, first attempt using Alitrea resulted in a bug hitting a massive number of the players with masochism until Hollimar no longer had it. Please let us know when it's safe to use it again!
I would also echo the encouragement for a player-administration liaison to better support the feedback here.
Also, first attempt using Alitrea resulted in a bug hitting a massive number of the players with masochism until Hollimar no longer had it. Please let us know when it's safe to use it again!
I would also echo the encouragement for a player-administration liaison to better support the feedback here.
You killed a glom little guy who was AFK. You bastard. I'll kill you.
+1 for Liaison. Similar to the previous super reports, it allows player discussion and feedback through someone to regulate the opinions and condense them into bite size chunks.
We are still concerned at the current developments results, separate from the goal. It -does- simplify combat, but at the cost of removing the skill involved entirely.
Right now, the goal is to get enough skills out before we can look at some of the tweaks you guys have been suggesting. It's slow going and would even be slower (i.e., to the point where this project would never get done) if we kept going back to the drawing board at every stage. I would rather not have 'counters', i.e., more levels to get afflictions. (Not saying that's written in stone, just not on the table at the moment.) However, open to tweaking cure/cast speeds if that's an issue. Certainly open to reviewing what afflictions do. Some people have kept saying they'd give some specific suggestions on affliction progression but I don't think I've seen anything! I like the idea of lower afflictions hitting less/being less effective as well. I do think it is extremely premature to start trying to deal with group combat dynamics (no, it really wouldn't be any easier to address that now than later).
In any event, what I had hoped the plan would be is that we would finish up the bards then reopen the envoy reports to address bards so yes we will be looking at player feedback. Again, right now the goal is to get enough out to work with!
Well considering the counters/weights things were in place to help with groups, and help with some solo offenses (for instance, how will warriors work? do Pureblades do 2 levels of aff? If so they cap too fast. But if they only do one level, what does a blademaster do?). The cure rate is far far too slow, right now we have 2 afflictions per 3.6s before instrument buff (dont know if that changed) and without the tinkering buff for the aurics vs 5s per cure.
I haven't posted anything tree wise because some of them I might remove entirely. Auditory for instance leads to being stuck in perfectfifth indefinitely (cant become deaf to walk out), aeon even at level 5 means if I aeon the moment you cure (since some guilds do this passively or stun at the time they aeon) you are locked in aeon for 5s while you wait on cure balance. Aeon being any real length of time on its cure will result in even more time spent in aeon, and most people do other things on top of aeon (most guilds with aeon have passives).
So there is a number of things we would look at, but we assumed you'd want to fix things before more guilds came out, the third bard coming out was taken to mean you were ignoring us (*sniffle*). We will wait till bards are done and see what envoys say, but I honestly have no idea what you should expect when messing with a new system. A number of the envoys havent even tried shells.
Thanks for the reply so we know what is going on though. Still support having a liason, because I honestly do not think a number of envoys will have meaningful feedback, or have shown they dont put enough thought into changes.
@Estarra - I'm off the next few days. I will take the time to pour over the afflictions and make recommendations on them. I'll make a thread here in this forum for it.
I do think that cure/cast speeds are an issue. I also do worry a lot about bugs, such as the aforementioned having killed a novice while testing in the arena.
Mala - the thought I had for warriors is really that things will take a similar form to what they are now, and maximum affliction level will depend on what kind of wounds you have. Crit required for an L5 affliction or something? I dunno. That's how I kinda pictured it so far, though.
Ok it has been a few so I thought I would pop back in. Make sure no one thinks we have disappeared (we being players and I).
@Hiriako: I do not know if we will have wounding, they have not said, but that seems a somewhat complicated system and how will aff levels work with weapons? Can BM cause 2 aff levels a hit if there are wounds or does it just cap levels? In Which case can you hit to instantly move to level 5 if you have puissance and such? Meaning you can't cure? Mind you this has no idea what the cure rate for salves are off the top of my head. If its too fast you cant cause affs really, if its too slow, warriors will be overkill.
Given the present state of the overhaul I have put on hold any looking at classflexing in case of possible realm transfer. There was a plan by a number of us to do an org shake up, but no one wants to move to a guild only for it to be neutered or completely unplayable later. There are major concerns not only about the base mechanics but the impact on respective guilds. I will go over these at the end of the post for those who want details beyond the base thoughts.
The base mechanics need to include a weight to break a level into smaller portions and adjust curing to that, as right now everything looks like spamming a handful of skills over and over is entirely how we will kill people. Curing does not matter if you outpace it anyway. So far it looks like the overhauls implementation was made far before how it would work was worked out. I do not want to give foundless statements so I will give examples:
- Perfectfifth is not something you escape without gust under the new system, you can never recover truehearing.
- Blanknote has a long stun, which was removed in report 131. The logic for the change can be found there, but spending long intervals in stun is bad. We could remove or lower stuns/blackouts couldn't we?
- Cacophony plague focus is questionable at best given the affs have been moved to multiple trees it is no longer anywhere near cohesive.
- Aeon focus (a lot of guilds have this) takes a very long time instead of being a burst setup. If it has to be an aff we need a better way to handle it
- Trees: Things like aeon being a 3rd level aff and reckless being a first tells us things were made before they were examined for combat.
There are a few of the examples based on what is released so far. While we may not see the whole picture because everything is not out yet, that does not stop the base mechanics from being a problem. You can do anything you want to a guild but if the underlying system is flawed, everyone suffers the same issues. As it stands, Lusternia combat appears to be going CASUAL, not easier. Many who play Lusternia came for its combat and we are likely to alienate those players.
I volunteered (as well as some others) to help directly with the process. Give me a chance to look over things, let me be an intermediary, what have you. The overhaul is listed as a disaster thus far, if is not fully out but so far it is bad, we do not need 3 more guilds to tell things are not working. I tried to be nice and such about it but I am afraid if we do not take a tougher stand our silence will be taken as approval. I am more than willing to assist with anything, fixing the old stuff, making the new stuff work, etc but we need an agreement where the overhaul is intended to go and if we want to get rid of the PvP crowd in the process.
So far the current system would be better than the new one. Things like burst classes wont exist because affs are spread among multiple levels. What happens to things like monks who are NOT warriors and rely on affliction combinations? Will we keep healing (the single worst skillset to have in the game at present)? A lot of questions have been given but we have few answers. Call me a pessimist, call me an idiot, I have a long record of combat excellence and one of the most in depth understandings of mechanics and combat in the game. My knowledge is available for use, I just want a chance to make sure things go well.
It still feels like we need a liaison to relay our goals and try to find a mid ground with admins, as we have a lot of coding work going into things that are not good or will have to be changed later.
As an aside, we have a set of envoy reports to fix some issues that were put in, now we are being told they are not going to be used? This overhaul will take a long time, get the fixes in for now, then go back to overhaul.
Envoys have proven they tend to not do their jobs, I wont name names, or reports.
I have not been an envoy for a long time, and I have made an effort to stay that way, prefering to use an intermediary.
I won't speak to what I think will happen, or saying we need more than one person. I just want Syn's plans and list and such, and wondering if he is running things why he isn't talking to anyone.
This should be public! Then again, I dislike assigning over a vote. Admin picking who runs something over players, again, irksome.
This really isn't a democratic process so we won't be doing votes or referendums for most of the process. We did ask Synkarin go give us some preliminary feedback so feel free to interface with him.
Just as an aside, those we are drawn to work with are optimistic, flexible and non-demanding. Just saying!
I've not really had a good chance to look at the overhaul, I really keep meaning to get into the shells and mess around with them more so I have first hand experience with what's going on
At this point, I think it's just to gather the big concerns (of which there seem to be plenty) and present the case to Estarra. From my limited experience, I agree it's too easy to stack, too fast, and some speed changes will need to be made.
I'll actually be gone for the next week, only popping in, but when I get back, I'll make more of a pointed effort to check out the overhaul shells
(and my appointing was really more of a 'I agree we need one' 'you want to do it' 'if you want, I can' appointment than anything else.
Still don't understand the need for the overhaul other than to make this game easier...which seems to be the entire gaming industry right now in the MMO field. Just trying to make people easier for the newer 'kids' who as we can see via social media aren't getting smarter.
I honestly haven't been following the thread or trying out the new skillsets on the shells, but from what I've seen, it seems like this overhaul is going to be as complicated as the original version of combat.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
From what I've toyed with and seen so far it seems like a race to level 5 afflictions and hitting the I Win button.
I don't think this is connected to the general "instant gratification" that is ruining the gaming industry, but I don't like this new system at all so far.
The divine voice
of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations,
Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Comments
As for suggestions, we still don't have enough data, but the concerns about general affliction speed is valid. Too many afflictions, too quickly, for the cure speeds the overhaul has. Other than slowing down the sheer speed of afflictions, another thing that can be done is to greatly nerf the levels 1-3 of an affliction stack. Make them do close to nothing, (one-time effect, one-time damage etc) and we may see a more decent balance of speed, where everyone is always hovering around level 1-2 in a few stacks, but just being there isn't going to cripple them and make them unable to do anything.
In any event, what I had hoped the plan would be is that we would finish up the bards then reopen the envoy reports to address bards so yes we will be looking at player feedback. Again, right now the goal is to get enough out to work with!
Can we get an update, please?
I don't know what I was expecting
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!
Just as an aside, those we are drawn to work with are optimistic, flexible and non-demanding. Just saying!
I don't think this is connected to the general "instant gratification" that is ruining the gaming industry, but I don't like this new system at all so far.
The divine voice of Avechna, the Avenger reverberates powerfully, "Congratulations, Morkarion, you are the Bringer of Death indeed."
You see Estarra the Eternal shout, "Morkarion is no more! Mourn the mortal! But welcome True Ascendant Karlach, of the Realm of Death!