Regarding shackles discussion. Shackles do not have a longer writhe time than web. They don't. I have both and a writhe extending song power so I've tested this many many times.
There is no difference in the time it takes to writhe out or web and shackles.
They have the exact same writhing times.
Shackles stacks with web but you can just magic both away if need be. There have even been discussions about eliminating entanglement stacking in the overhaul so that might not even be a thing in the future. Also, I am not 100% sure but I think they get around web specific avoidance skills like that annoying face paint or whatever. Not sure on that last one though.
For all intents and purposes the differences are thematic.
Edit:
PS: 2 cents as an envoy - giving passive web to a guild with a run or die kill method is a very powerful addition that I do not believe was wise or needed.
PS: 2 cents as an envoy - giving passive web to a guild with a run or die kill method is a very powerful addition that I do not believe was wise or needed.
Except the run or die kill method cannot be used in combination with the shackles, which is addressed in the report and in the furies' decision. Don't get me wrong, I personally don't feel Celestines needed shackles either... but original complaints were about inquisition... which was addressed in that a heretic or infidel cannot be shackled. Of course, now it's about shackles + blackout or whatever. Diagnosing under blackout has always been a thing, as has been the ability to check for symptoms under blackout... quite uncertain as to why this is still being chewed on. Does it give celestines a lot more hinder than they have? Sure. Does it also give them the choice between throwing inquisition or shackles? Uh yes... it sure does. I have heard the argument passed that meteors and soulless would be much easier for celestines with this particular setup too.... well, if someone setting up spheres/zodiac circle against you wasn't warning enough that a meteor was coming or someone rubbing soulless on you wasn't warning enough that a soulless fling is on the way... I don't know what is.
Either way, at present, I'm feeling like the argument is happening for the sake of argument. The decision has been made, the pledges will be added... wait and see what happens, then moan about the imbalancing power of shackles once it's been used at least once in a live combat situation. There was a lot of griping and moaning about aeromancy getting a mana kill too... but the truth of the matter is... in a live combat situation, I've only killed all of one person... and that person was being actively mana drained by several others at the time, too. Again, numbers and theorycrafting is all well and good... but until someone actually breaks and demonstrates that the skill creates an imbalance in live combat, I remain skeptical.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
If you feel that strongly, then I urge to support 1340, Lets see how in a live combat situation my proposal for Minstrels actually works out compared to all this theorycrafting going on.
"'Cause the fighting don't stop till I walk in." -Synkarin's Lament.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
edited April 2015
So...combat balance isn't really about whether or not someone skilled enough is active to abuse it and prove it needs to be changed. Plenty of skills were considered benign until exploited by people like X griefer (pick whichever one you want, we've all had skills nerfed in our name). Balance should be proactive, rather than reactive, whenever possible.
There's this bass ackwards onus put on the opposition by some envoys, that it's not the envoy's job who proposed the change to prove why they need to a report. It's everyone else's job to explain why they are wrong. What's worse is when they go off on the "well I can't kill anyone with it so it must be fine," ego. That's not how this is supposed to work. You can't use your own perception of your own skill level as evidence of why you need a buff, that's wildly subjective. That's not actually evidence of anything, and can quite easily just be evidence of so and so not being very good. Often time I will gladly take theory crafting over anecdotal "evidence" about an envoy's personal experience. these anecdotes rarely come with logs, suprise surpise. Math is math, at the end of the day, and when some envoys talk about the capabilities of their own guilds or the validity of their own skill levels, you often have to take it with a grain of salt. Or a bucket.
edit: Knowing that you are getting soulles rubs or spheres for meteor is not really...relevant. Like at all. Knowing a Wiccan is going for a toad doesn't mean you give them free reign to envoy whatever they want because you know the toad is coming. The whole point is that you have have enough time to avoid it once it is actually coming. Things like diagnosing and passive hinders take up that time. Like I said, some envoys...buckets of salt. Ehhhh.
After a couple hours of combat training in Glomdoring last night, and getting my assed kicked every time, I proceed to dream that I was getting ganked by Serenwilde and ran around until the Commune could save me...
Either way, at present, I'm feeling like the argument is happening for the sake of argument. The decision has been made, the pledges will be added... wait and see what happens, then moan about the imbalancing power of shackles once it's been used at least once in a live combat situation. There was a lot of griping and moaning about aeromancy getting a mana kill too... but the truth of the matter is... in a live combat situation, I've only killed all of one person... and that person was being actively mana drained by several others at the time, too. Again, numbers and theorycrafting is all well and good... but until someone actually breaks and demonstrates that the skill creates an imbalance in live combat, I remain skeptical.
Well then isn't this defending for the sake of defending? You are arguing that things need to be a problem in practice before they can be labeled a problem. That's a very bold position to take.....
Edit: I fail at forum quotes, the text quoted is from elanorwen and not myself.
I think you guys are misunderstanding her. She's saying that since it's already been decided, it's pointless to argue it now.
Correct. Considering it's already decided, there's no point in further arguing it. Was the decision process a bit fishy? Sure. Did it show up and get submitted/accepted a few days later? Yes. Has anyone actually tried to go up against it to be able to point out direct issues? Uhhhhh, no. I'm certainly not trying to defend the decision making process, I'm merely stating that we should probably give it a go and see if it explodes in our face before trying to rip admins a new one.
That said, where's the outrage about the dreamweaving report that appeared in much the same fashion and seems to be slated for decision in a short period of time too and oh-so-coincidentally gets a boost out of another submitted report that is also going to get a decision at the same time, but we're supposed to ignore that bit while making our comments? Please.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I dunno, I'm pretty down with using "let's implement first then see" as justification.
Just know that it goes both ways.
ONLY IF there is a reasonable belief that we can change it after we see. Which....is questionable at time.
You mean like the hekoskeri change got altered after it went in? Anyway... I've said my piece... I don't see a point in devolving this argument into he said/she said, he did/she did (or didn't as the case may be) and getting tweets closed. Feel free to contact me in PMs if you'd like to argue your point about something else... or start a separate topic.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
You play a minor second on a smoky lyre of riotous ragtime and direct the disharmonic notes towards a fat blue lizard.
Blood trickles out of a fat blue lizard's ears and from the corners of his eyes.
You have scored a CRITICAL hit!
A fat blue lizard screams and dies, as his eyes fly out of their sockets and blood splurts out of his ears.
You have slain a fat blue lizard.
Your soul cries out in ecstasy as it reaches new heights of power. You have advanced to level 100.
You have reached the illustrious level of Demigod.
You have received 25 Bound Credits!
You feel your innermost energies growing to extreme proportions as a darkness takes over your senses. When your senses return, you find yourself in a different location and there is a strange feeling within you.
I think you guys are misunderstanding her. She's saying that since it's already been decided, it's pointless to argue it now.
Correct. Considering it's already decided, there's no point in further arguing it. Was the decision process a bit fishy? Sure. Did it show up and get submitted/accepted a few days later? Yes. Has anyone actually tried to go up against it to be able to point out direct issues? Uhhhhh, no. I'm certainly not trying to defend the decision making process, I'm merely stating that we should probably give it a go and see if it explodes in our face before trying to rip admins a new one.
That said, where's the outrage about the dreamweaving report that appeared in much the same fashion and seems to be slated for decision in a short period of time too and oh-so-coincidentally gets a boost out of another submitted report that is also going to get a decision at the same time, but we're supposed to ignore that bit while making our comments? Please.
For the record, the Minstrel report was up before this DW report got put in. I had no idea it was going to change to an egokill. Secondly, The dreamweaving report was submitted by Viynain last month, and was even commented in the report that Ieptix was going to work with Viynain to fine tune the changes he was asking for. So no, it's not the same scenario at all, If you were paying attention to the report, you knew this DW thing was coming.
Fyi hekoskeri report went in as suggested. You can read it yourself. Report 968.
And then was never looked at again. I've read it. I'm sure I've also said more than once that hekoskeri in its current iteration is a bit strong. Where's the nerf?
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I think you guys are misunderstanding her. She's saying that since it's already been decided, it's pointless to argue it now.
Correct. Considering it's already decided, there's no point in further arguing it. Was the decision process a bit fishy? Sure. Did it show up and get submitted/accepted a few days later? Yes. Has anyone actually tried to go up against it to be able to point out direct issues? Uhhhhh, no. I'm certainly not trying to defend the decision making process, I'm merely stating that we should probably give it a go and see if it explodes in our face before trying to rip admins a new one.
That said, where's the outrage about the dreamweaving report that appeared in much the same fashion and seems to be slated for decision in a short period of time too and oh-so-coincidentally gets a boost out of another submitted report that is also going to get a decision at the same time, but we're supposed to ignore that bit while making our comments? Please.
For the record, the Minstrel report was up before this DW report got put in. I had no idea it was going to change to an egokill. Secondly, The dreamweaving report was submitted by Viynain last month, and was even commented in the report that Ieptix was going to work with Viynain to fine tune the changes he was asking for. So no, it's not the same scenario at all, If you were paying attention to the report, you knew this DW thing was coming.
I'm aware of the minstrel report existing before the DW report was put in. I'm not arguing that at all. In fact, you'll note that until the DW report with the egokill change came up, I refrained from objecting to your Minstrel report, giving you the benefit of the doubt even though I believe your proposed changes are going a bit overboard. Still, the DW report was influenced by another envoy in your organization, and to have us believe that said envoy didn't consider your report is to claim that every other envoy is an idiot. I'm sorry, but highlighted in my quote of your post is the main issue I have with the DW report and why I'm objecting to it. Seems to me that bit came as a surprise to you too? I have my own thoughts on the matter of whether it did come as a surprise to you or not, but being that it's just a case of speculation and a bit biased, I'll refrain from voicing it here.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Uh... the DW thing is an entirely different kettle of fish. Any objection to the content of the report (to note: I AM one such objector) is based on the actual content of the report, which is a natural clarification on the report that spawned it, not on the methods being employed.
In fact: I wholeheartedly applaud, with no reservations, the creation of the DW clarification pseudo-report. Instead of just interpreting the vague original report however, there is an effort to not only do a report an envoy suggested, but to do it in the precise way those envoys had in mind. Something that several other reports could have used in spades, where a sol4 totally screwed the pooch (like the awful implementation of report 764).
None needed, the most important problem proposed was related to groups and I've addressed it appropriately.
We can complain all we want that it wasn't changed to suit your preferences, but I take my envoying seriously and have repeatedly made changes to reflect that.
In fact, I would say that I do my job more faithfully than 90% of the envoys currently around.
Also it's a bit too late for that now given the overhaul.
1) Viynain has no idea if my report is going to get accepted or not... so changing it over to an egokill based on that alone is a pretty big gamble. Also, when I initially posted my report up (first comment is 3/29, so before then), it was before his dreamweaving report was even submitted, accepted or considered. There was no possible way I could know it was going to be changed to an ego kill.
2) DW also is available in every single city and every single org, so that had to be considered as well.
3) Your current objections to my report haven't mentioned the DW report at all, nor should it. You envoyed a manakill to take advantage of Hallifax's mana draining capabilities as well as piggyback on 4 of the other 5 orgs that have mana kills, 2 of which were your staunch allies (Celest and Seren). You really want to complain about synergy etc when you consider those facts (which were brought up in the comments for your report, by the way).
4) Hekoskeri hasn't been re-envoyed because a) envoys were shut down and b) it doesn't really pertain to the overhaul, which is the focus of envoy reports currently.
This really isn't anything like the pact/pledge report, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to throw claims of bias out there.
1) Viynain has no idea if my report is going to get accepted or not... so changing it over to an egokill based on that alone is a pretty big gamble. Also, when I initially posted my report up, it was before his dreamweaving report was even accepted or considered. There was no possible way I could know it was going to be changed to an ego kill.
2) DW also is available in every single city and every single org, so that had to be considered as well.
3) Your current objections to my report haven't mentioned the DW report at all, nor should it. You envoyed a manakill to take advantage of Hallifax's mana draining capabilities as well as piggyback on 4 of the other 5 orgs that have mana kills, 2 of which were your staunch allies (Celest and Seren). You really want to complain about synergy etc when you consider those facts (which were brought up in the comments for your report, by the way).
4) Hekoskeri hasn't been re-envoyed because a) envoys were shut down and b) it doesn't really pertain to the overhaul, which is the focus of envoy reports currently.
This really isn't anything like the pact/pledge report, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to throw claims of bias out there.
Nowhere did I say that I was going to use the DW report as an objection to your report. I merely stated that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until the DW report showed up... a report that was inspired by another envoy in your own organization. I honestly don't care how big a gamble it is.
Anyway, we're going off on a major tangent at this point and one that is not productive to this thread.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
1) Viynain has no idea if my report is going to get accepted or not... so changing it over to an egokill based on that alone is a pretty big gamble. Also, when I initially posted my report up, it was before his dreamweaving report was even accepted or considered. There was no possible way I could know it was going to be changed to an ego kill.
2) DW also is available in every single city and every single org, so that had to be considered as well.
3) Your current objections to my report haven't mentioned the DW report at all, nor should it. You envoyed a manakill to take advantage of Hallifax's mana draining capabilities as well as piggyback on 4 of the other 5 orgs that have mana kills, 2 of which were your staunch allies (Celest and Seren). You really want to complain about synergy etc when you consider those facts (which were brought up in the comments for your report, by the way).
4) Hekoskeri hasn't been re-envoyed because a) envoys were shut down and b) it doesn't really pertain to the overhaul, which is the focus of envoy reports currently.
This really isn't anything like the pact/pledge report, so I'm not sure why you keep trying to throw claims of bias out there.
Nowhere did I say that I was going to use the DW report as an objection to your report. I merely stated that I was giving you the benefit of the doubt until the DW report showed up... a report that was inspired by another envoy in your own organization. I honestly don't care how big a gamble it is.
Anyway, we're going off on a major tangent at this point and one that is not productive to this thread.
.....You can't sit here and say 'I didn't object until the DW report' and then say the DW report isn't the source of your objections...... That again, is a contrary statement.
Comments
Estarra the Eternal says, "Give Shevat the floor please."
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
Either way, at present, I'm feeling like the argument is happening for the sake of argument. The decision has been made, the pledges will be added... wait and see what happens, then moan about the imbalancing power of shackles once it's been used at least once in a live combat situation. There was a lot of griping and moaning about aeromancy getting a mana kill too... but the truth of the matter is... in a live combat situation, I've only killed all of one person... and that person was being actively mana drained by several others at the time, too. Again, numbers and theorycrafting is all well and good... but until someone actually breaks and demonstrates that the skill creates an imbalance in live combat, I remain skeptical.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Just know that it goes both ways.
That said, where's the outrage about the dreamweaving report that appeared in much the same fashion and seems to be slated for decision in a short period of time too and oh-so-coincidentally gets a boost out of another submitted report that is also going to get a decision at the same time, but we're supposed to ignore that bit while making our comments? Please.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
"Cool! Sweet!"
Dead. No Demi.
"... Okay we somehow botched that, redo."
Redo. Dead. No Demi.
She kills a lizard?
Demi.
/flip table
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
In fact: I wholeheartedly applaud, with no reservations, the creation of the DW clarification pseudo-report. Instead of just interpreting the vague original report however, there is an effort to not only do a report an envoy suggested, but to do it in the precise way those envoys had in mind. Something that several other reports could have used in spades, where a sol4 totally screwed the pooch (like the awful implementation of report 764).
We can complain all we want that it wasn't changed to suit your preferences, but I take my envoying seriously and have repeatedly made changes to reflect that.
In fact, I would say that I do my job more faithfully than 90% of the envoys currently around.
Also it's a bit too late for that now given the overhaul.
Anyway, we're going off on a major tangent at this point and one that is not productive to this thread.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
I AM SORRY
The Inner Sea. I take commissions doe.