Support Classes

Tacita · February 2013

So, imagine that someone is coming into Lusternia and they want to play the equivalent of an 'active support class'. The sort of person who plays a healer on MMOs and so forth. They don't really want to just passively buff people because that's a bit boring, they want to actually stand there looking after/aiding their allies in some fashion.

What archetype/guild do you tell them to go, and why?

As a further thought, is such a thing even viable in Lusternia?

Enyalida · February 2013

I enjoy this kind of play, providing tangible support and buffs for a party. In games where it is possible, I prefer to stand at the back, coordinating and assisting more active group members. I would love to play that kind of class here in Lusternia.

In Lusternia the closest fit to this would be Institute Healer, in my opinion. You've got enough defensive ability to tank and run away when the fight comes to you, and you can (to a limited degree) heal others from behind the front lines.

That said, no, I don't think that this particular archetype of play is a reality in Lusternia. The core reason is probably that game balancers (players and admins alike) want to tone down the amount of 'buff stacking' that can go on. If you had a class dedicated to buffing other classes, their entire concept would have to be applied to every other class, as they would be somehow increasing the capabilities of all their allies. You run into the druid/mage problem, where you cannot buff certain skills because in one or another of the classes, it will cause problems, but on a much larger scale!

Cyndarin · February 2013

The only thing that really falls into this category is any guild with Healing, which I have some ideas for to kind of move it further into this role through reports. There are some other guilds like Aeromancers that have some passive healing and curing, but none of them really approach the tertiary in terms of support abilities.

Curing someone is a bit slow and not overly effective, but auras and active healing are both really effective, and sacrifice is an amazing (and very cheap) skill. It will cure people of absolutely everything for 2 power. It's quite nice.

So the short answer is Moondancer, Shadowdancer, Celestine, or Researcher. Fairly certain Celestines have some room healing/buffs outside of their tertiary that the others don't. MD and SD have nymph and pixie you can order to follow others for extra little perks.

Zvoltz · February 2013

I recall that when bards were originally released the idea of a "support class" was decried far and wide as people who play the game want to be able to hold their own/be the star of their own PvP story. My memory might be overexaggerating, but I do remember that being used as one of the arguments for bards needing a change to be taken seriously.

Tacita · February 2013

Zvoltz said:

I recall that when bards were originally released the idea of a "support class" was decried far and wide as people who play the game want to be able to hold their own/be the star of their own PvP story. My memory might be overexaggerating, but I do remember that being used as one of the arguments for bards needing a change to be taken seriously.

The thing with bards is that 95% of their support abilities are passive. Put your song up, keep it up, if they're not deaf you're supporting people as best you can - unless they're being damage killed, but major third only does so much.

Bards would be much more viable as a support class if they had healing, because they'd have something active to do.

And more to your point - whilst I'm sure there are people who want to be the 1v1 star of the show, there are also some of us who enjoy playing support to others.

Alethia · February 2013

Well with the way you can change some of your skills it should be possible to switch between support/PvP/PvE builds right?

I kind of like playing support and healers myself. Not buffbots though.

Enyalida · February 2013

There is a difference between playing a 'support class' that focuses on helping out your friends and playing a 'if a particular combination of friends isn't around I can't accomplish anything on my own class'.

While I do really enjoy playing a class that can hand out help to other folk (ESPECIALLY if that help is utility, not just +x to your y help). The realization that you can't accomplish anything on your own is a sad one. That's the story behind wanting everyone to be a 'star'. When there isn't any way to depend on the availability or quality of assistance, it's nice to know you aren't just half a strategy!

Tacita · February 2013

Alethia said:

Well with the way you can change some of your skills it should be possible to switch between support/PvP/PvE builds right?

I kind of like playing support and healers myself. Not buffbots though.

It's viable from the skill selection POV...but the skills that make you a support class have to be there!

Sure, I can totally flex myself between builds. But at the moment, the only options I have are changing from Lowmagic to Highmagic (not massively relevant) and from Ecology/Hunting to Glamours/Illusions. I can just about see this giving me PvE (Ecology buffs) and PvP (Glamours stuff) options, but there's no support option there for me.

Llandros · February 2013

The best way you can support your friends is to hinder people attacking them, move them if they get overwhelmed or use complementary skills to help get faster kills.

There are tons of ways you can die with full health and mana. A pure healer archetype would be pointless here.

In that sense bards, demesne mages/druids and others with room wide attacks/hindering are going to be the closest to a support class.

Important to note is that you don't need a special skill set to play support in Lusternia. Anyone with web/gust enchantments and a fist full of salt is fully capable of rocking the support role.

Cyndarin · February 2013

Come to the SDs. We have healing. And wine. And an evil wyrd puppy.

I'm honestly not terribly sure what Zvoltz is referring to. There has not been an overhaul of the role of bards, they function esentially the same as they did when they were created, only back then they were borderline non functional because earache didn't exist and they just flailed about helplessly. Which isn't so much "support" as it is "bad." They weren't ever heavily "support" in the first place, so it's hard to argue that their role was changed.

Healer or bust.

Lendren · February 2013

Zvoltz said:

I recall that when bards were originally released the idea of a "support class" was decried far and wide as people who play the game want to be able to hold their own/be the star of their own PvP story. My memory might be overexaggerating, but I do remember that being used as one of the arguments for bards needing a change to be taken seriously.

There were plenty of bards who wanted to be a support class but when it became clear it wasn't viable most of them moved on. The people who didn't want to be support were certainly louder, but the way deafness works, and the failure of Captivate to end up a viable alternative to your allies staying deaf, is what really killed it. At least that's what I saw; might have been different in other bard guilds.

Silvanus · February 2013

Nihilist Tarotist.

Can heal others? Check: puella, laetitia, Princess tarot, magician tarot

Can save others? Check: Empress tarot

Can hinder better then anyone? Check: Hangedman, shackles on demon, ectoplasm, 7power crucifix

Can help allies kill quicker? Check: Omen

Have passives that damage/afflict enemies that your allies can take advantage of? Check: Contagion and Coldaura

Can revive your ally? Check, sort of: Lichdom

Eventru · February 2013

Celestines and Institute fit it most, both with Healing as a tertiary. Celestine's have options like Benediction, Puella, Puer, Resurrection, and I believe the ability to Trueheal others (with power and holy light) available to them, on top of the affliction and wound healing available to them via Healing. Institute has some nice defense in Harmonics if I recall correctly - passive healing, shielding, etc. If you go Scalpel, you also can Trueheal-lite yourself and maybe an ally (can't remember offhand), which is also super useful.

Most guardian guilds, as Silvanus points out, can play the role though, and city bards with tarot. It's not as effective, but you will usually have a more active role in combat. I don't think much beats an Institute with healing though.

Enyalida · February 2013

Guardians turn out to be good at a great many roles, hehe.

Cyndarin · February 2013

FYI you won't use puella or puer as a healer because healing has better versions of both. I never realized Celestines and paladins could trueheal for others though. Who thought that was a good idea?

I don't know if Nihilists really classify as "support" in the sense that Tacita is getting at.

I'd put my money on Researcher, namely because they aren't balanced and can shame everyone in terms of healing and curing capabilities for themselves and others WHILE maintaining a ridiculously powerful "run or die" offense. No other guild can really boast that.

Enyalida · February 2013

Trueheal for others went in when holy light did, and it consumes some (of this otherwise unconsumed resource). The answer to your question is: No one. No one thinks/thought it was a good idea.

I'm still going for Institute too. The I.S.H.I.T.K. has super high lul-passive-shielding defense that goes well with Healing, and their gems/aeonics abilities are really good in group situations for minimal hassle.

Veyrzhul · February 2013

I think trackers and demesne holders haven't been mentioned yet. I personally wouldn't call a healer in a regular MMO support, since their explicit role is healing. Support is someone who increases the combat abilties of a party as a whole by means of buffing the group or debuffing the enemy. So bards actually fit that really well, as do demesne holders. If someone wants to be an actual healer, picking a class with access to the healing skillset is pretty much obligatory. As Celina said, sacrifice alone does the job really well (requires you to be in the fight, however).

Eventru · February 2013

Not to digress too far, but Holy Light isn't easily collected (and I mean that in the truest sense, you won't be farming it like power etc) and has a few uses, among them extending the window for Inquisition. I think both are pretty heavy in cost, but I haven't looked recently.

Ah, to bring it back full circle, I forgot about a few other Celestine abilities that use Holy Light. One (HolyHealing) heals a fair chunk of health/mana/ego, and HolyBeing passively heals afflictions for you and your allies, and maybe health.

In terms of burst healing, I suppose Celestines do come out on top. Institute does have a lot more less restrictive passives, though, that makes it better in terms of being able to maintain it over time.

Enyalida · February 2013

Demesne holders are poor support classes, as to use their abilities, they need to be in the fray dissolving protection, 'mense warring, and most notably doing 1 second stun or paralysis every 10 seconds. The most powerful effects there are the group breaking ones, which are subject to the above restrictions and more.

Aeromancers come close, as they do actually buff their allies slightly with that eq increasing ability (it's .5 seconds, iirc).

Can't you healer sacrifice at range?

Raeri · February 2013

Can't you healer sacrifice at range? Yes, but doing so affects all allies in the arena, kills the caster and destroys the corpse.

Cyndarin · February 2013

^That. No one does it. Because it's bad for you.

Lerad · February 2013

Support classes work in MMOs also because of the virtual space that is visualised. Mechanics like kiting out of opponent reach and staying within ally range is an important aspect of support/healing/buffing classes in MMOs. Being text based, we don't get this kind of variable space, which makes it difficult to add those kind of mechanics and strategies to the support game.

Also, when major fights with 5 v 5 happen only occasionally, support players don't get as high a demand. Perhaps there are people who want to play as them, but there are not as many people who want to play WITH them. In small skirmishes, especially in a text based game, having someone in the room helping you land the kill is more important than having someone outside the room keeping you alive.

That said, the above posters are all pretty much spot on when it comes to healing. It's an amazing skillset for support in the few viable ways a text game support class can operate. It's complicated, it requires very active observation, it requires coordination, it requires knowledge of combat theory, and it requires the innate sense of combat flow of who to help that only comes with experience. For the troubles, it's extremely potent, and can easily save a target from most affliction-based offenses, with a few exceptions and perhaps instakills. It's the closest analogical equivalent to kiting strategies of MMOs that can be replicated in a text game. I think we're in a good place with it.

Solanis · February 2013

As said above, in terms of 'active' support, it's almost always going to be more effective to be spending your balance/eq offensively than using Healing or whatnot.

Svorai · February 2013

Active support class on your own, or supporting the other supporters?

You know what I would say, Taci. Druids are fun to play because there is so much that rides on you being on the ball. And so what if Vadi is the one that holds the meld, there are plenty of things druids can do to support their team. We are the support class to beat all support classes.

Runist Crow druid. Rad, squall, mana bombing, thorns, pollen, dissolving, helping maintain the meld + everything else.

All these druid haters. Tsk! I say, tsk!

Cyndarin · February 2013

Lerad said:

Also, when major fights with 5 v 5 happen only occasionally, support players don't get as high a demand. Perhaps there are people who want to play as them, but there are not as many people who want to play WITH them. In small skirmishes, especially in a text based game, having someone in the room helping you land the kill is more important than having someone outside the room keeping you alive.

I will disagree with this to an extent. I know that as a healer with a lot of defense and utility skills, my job is often times to play nurse. If the enemy spends 20 seconds trying to kill Vadi, and I can sacrifice for him which is instant and basically makes him good as new, that's 20 free seconds that our team has to kill to beat on someone on the other team. There's actually a lot of value in a rescuer/healer that can alternate between bashing people to death and saving key fighters from getting murdered with a single equilibrium.

I think @Vadi himself, as well as other gloms that fight with me, can attest to the value of having a healer/rescuer around. I will say it takes experience and a feel for combat as well as personal awareness and allies that know how to ask for help to be really effective, but saving a melder or high tier combatant on your side can be the difference between a win and a wipe. I will say it's not smart to spam cure and heal, it's not all that effecient (though farheal does come in handy). But sacrifice just can't be used enough.

It's really why I love SD in groups. I play very defensive (and get accused of sucking/running but we win so who cares). I keep an eye on key fighters on my side and keep them alive, as well as provide pressure with a very potent damage attack, passive fae, and the ever present danger of being toaded.

Orti · February 2013

When I grow up, I want o be like Celina

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