You have a reputation, and it is quite possible anyone jumping you knows of it (regardless of whether you spoke to them directly or not). The PS is good advice for general use, even if it had nothing to do with this specific instance it will help with future ones.
Avechna is doing exactly what it is intended to. If you want them to kill you again, then PK FORGIVE them. Otherwise, shrug, note that they cannot touch you again, and harvest in peace.
Yes. I have a reputation for not allowing people to bully me and insult me. I stand up for myself, shocker that the bullies can't handle that right?
This is not what your reputation is for.
Personally, I do not like that Avenger takes all the roleplaying onus out of attacking someone. That's not to say that people fighting have no role-based reasons to do so, in the vast majority of times they do. It's just to say that they don't need to because killing is managed by a (mostly) ooc mechanic. I understand why it is the way it is, however. I wish that there would be some fixes regarding how it interacts with certain (conflict) quests, and that there were more avenues for open combat that aren't exclusively "forest territory", but it is what it is.
No that is what my reputation is for just that the people who tend to argue with me, also tend to be the ones who bully me and attack or insult me first so of course they would see it and word it differently. I almost never insult or verbally attack someone without them having first done so to me, honey.
Yeah, you're definitely not the one who starts being condescending first.
Okay, I'm pretty much the opposite of a combattant (I don't think people will argue too much if I say I'm one of the biggest noncoms aruond), and I don't see the issue with Avenger either. Combat is, like it or not, a pretty central part of Lusternia, and you can't just try to pretend it doesn't exist. Are there other things to do other than combat? Of course there are, they've kept me busy for many a years now, but combat is still a large part of it.
I saw your conversation with @Celina, so it wouldn't surprise if you did the same to some other person.
You're not really seeing the big picture. It's enough reason to kill you 'because I wanted to' Avenger protects you from being killed more than once for 30 days.
It's not abuse of the system to play within the confines of the system. He's obviously saying he would kill you again, but he doesn't want to suffer at Avechna's hands, which is completely legitimate in my eyes.
Of course it's legitimate in your eyes. YOU are a fighter. I don't expect a combatant to be able to see it from another persons or non-com's point of view and as for a conversation with Celina, who was rude to me far before I said anything rude to her in return, that is no reason to assume that I would react the same way to someone else. Not unless of course they were rude to me to begin with in the same way that she was. I'm not a pushover and I refuse to allow people to bully me. *shrug*
I don't think it's a clear-cut case of combatants vs non-combatants. If you want to insult/trash talk people for the sake of rp, that's totally legitimate and I support that 100%. If you want to be protected from the consequences of doing that, well... that's a harder sell. My personal advice is to play your character in a way that will lead to results you, the player, can be happy with.
I.E., If you don't want to be involved in combat, be aware of the people likely to involve you in it, and treat them with some basic level of respect, if only for the realization that your character can't beat them in a fight. If you see that as 'letting them bully you', then go ahead with the trash talk, but embrace that choice with the realization that you will be pked on occasion. I would view it in the same light as the reason why my character shows some level of respect to ALL the gods, even ones she personally dislikes- you can't win in a fight against them. Accept that and move on, or find some other way to make their virtual lives miserable.
As for hiring people to kill other people... why is this ever necessary, honestly? Make friends with a combatant who likes defending you, and "pay them" in friendship, cookies, or whatever trade you have that they might want.
"Chairwoman," Princess Setisoki states, holding up a hand in a gesture for her to stop and returning the cup. "That would be quite inappropriate. One of the males will serve me."
6
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Girl, you can flag my post as abuse all day long, but in the end it's just another demonstration of your inability to keep IC and OOC conflict seperate, and using mechanics designed to protect players and the game environment as a tool to perpetuate your grudges.
If you expect PKers to respect the mechanics, the very least you could do is respect them as well.
And the game IS more than just mindlessly killing things and people, but you're too pissed off that someone had the audacity to kill you without saying something that you are boiling everything down to blatantly wrong issues.
Snub isn't a mechanic meant to not interact verbally, it is a mechanic meant to stop verbal harassment. It's not meant as a mechanic to snub someone because you don't like the way they talk to you in an IC fashion.
I have a hard time believing anyone who has abused the snub system so recently as a tool to swear at people they don't like and get the last word in has a genuine issue with any alleged "abuse" of the system. Stones, glass houses, etc.
Beyond that, I don't understand why you think people should feel obligated to warn you that they are about to initiate conflict and explain their justification for doing so. The onus really isn't on them to explain why they are participating in conflict in a game that is conflict oriented. When compared to other IREs, Lusternia's system is notoriously non com friendly, and so long as people are respecting the rules of the Avenger (in most cases they don't have a choice, it's hard coded), there is no abuse. Redefining "harassment" and "abusing the system" to fit your rhetoric isn't going to do you any favors here. 1 death every 30 days is not harassment.
This whole "I stand up for myself," bully nonsense would be a lot more credible if you demonstrated some ability to separate OOC and IC. Characters aren't going to get along in a world that is ultimately about wiping out every other org that is not your own, and as long as those IC interactions keep within reasonable boundaries, there's really no reason why everyone has to RP "respectful." If you initiate an IC conversation with someone, and snub them because they didn't kowtow your complaints, and ultimately resort to swearing at people in an OOC manner before using an OOC mechanic to get the last word in, you are in fact the abuser and the bully.
And frankly, you should be ashamed for throwing the word "bully," around just because you don't like PK or PKers. They are playing a game and a character, and this "I stand up for myself," routine is nothing more than you lashing out at people who don't play the way you want them to play. A remarkably hypocritical stance considering the intent of this entire thread.
I never said this particular person was bullying me for attacking me. I was referring to past conflicts of bullying from other people. not sure where you get the lack of separation from OOC and IC as being an issue for me? I haven't said anything about IC vs. OOC?
It's pretty clear that you think you should be placed above combatants and protected because you choose to be a non-combatant.
It's a silly notion to sit here and say that just because we're combatants, we couldn't possibly understand where you are coming from. I can turn it around and say because you're a non-combatant, you can't possibly understand why the Avenger system is completely sound and working in the exact way it was intended.
You're clearly not willing to accept that one death every 30 days from someone is really not that big of a deal. I don't know who ganked you, but I do know that death happens and you need to stop crying about it.
Yes I can accept that one death every 30 days isn't that big of a deal and sorry I don't mean to make it sound like i'm "crying" about being killed, i will handle that ICly as I can (I have a tendency I understand to come off as sounding condescending when I don't intend to be at all, I'm just very blunt and clearly not very tactful) I'm not crying about it, or not intending to anywas, it happens I get that. And you are absolutely right Synkarin as a non-com I probably CAN'T see it from your point of view either. I don't think I should be placed ABOVE combatants, hey I wish I COULD fight I just can't... I just think that non-com's shouldn't be placed as far -below- combatants and forced into a combat situation they don't want to be in. It just seems like the system is a little wonky to me that's all.
Being a combatant doesn't exclude us from the conversation or debate, or make us unable to empathize. As it is, Lusternia is, by far, the most forgiving IRE mud with regards to attacking non-combatants, and not just because of the Avenger system, but also because of the community. But that aside, the Avenger system ALONE already makes Lusternia literally, factually, the most forgiving IRE mud for non-combatants. Every other IRE mud has at least a 1-death = no issue rule, but here, it's enforced mechanically for 30 days. If you're killed multiple times in a month in other IREs, and the other party can prove you "deserved" it by any kind of logical argument, then combatant or not, you're all the way up "can't-do-anything" mountain.
Here, combatants are penalized because they can't attack a person even if they give them sufficient reason to be killed multiple times in a month. After killing someone legitimately, if that someone comes back and mouths off, I... can't do anything about it. End of story. The Avenger system here errs on the side of caution far more to the non-combatant advantage than the combatant advantage. That's a factual statement, but at the same time, an inadequate one. Instead of seeing it in the combatant/non-combatant binary, the more accurate statement will be, the Avenger system here errs on the side of caution far more to the new player's retention than to any old player's enjoyment.
You have to understand first and foremost, that the Avenger system is not meant to protect non-combatants. I've mentioned this before, some time ago, but the Avenger system is here to protect newbies as the first priority. It was convenient to have it apply to everyone, both because it's hard to say where the newbie line starts, and where it ends, but also to protect returning players who have no idea which side is up. On the other hand, older players, combatants and non-combatants alike, are penalized under the system because they cannot do anything to people who abuse it, absolute as it is. God knows there are people out there who deserve to be killed all 25 hours a day, combatant or not. The Avenger system is very effective as an absolute protection for newbies, and that's all it really is.
As a note, most combatants won't randomly kill non-combatants for no reason, because the more people have you on their suspect list, the more vulnerable you are to certain mechanics (karma curses). Most combatants don't do it because most combatants are smart.
Note I say most. Some people aren't very smart.
Combatants usually save their avenger-kill on people they have a reason to kill, specifically, other combatants. The system, as a side effect of being geared to punish random newbie killers, is also geared in a way to encourage combatants to attack other combatants, and save their avenger-kill slots for those combatants instead of non-combatants. Of course, that does mean that there are also times when a combatant has no one to kill, so can randomly choose to kill a non-combatant. Again, not many would willingly choose to do that because see above.
The times when a non-combatant is killed in Avenger protected territory is when 1) there actually IS a reason for the kill or 2) the killer is not very smart (see above).
Thank you Lerad, very respectful way to state it and very helpful.
- As a non combat / newbie person I would really like to see the attacks by people be preceded / followed up by more RP. Killing someone without even loosing a word before/after is, in my eyes, just boring and no matter your reason, not RP. I think a lot of frustration could be averted if the non-combatant would actually get something out of the encounter aside from XP loss. I know I would. - Sure, I get mad when somebody 1000% my might jumps me and makes me into fine grained meat. In the end, there's a chance to turn something boring like that into something that will haunt the attacker for far longer time then your kill did. You are part of an organisation, often with very capable people who might even delight to have a change from their daily chop chop. Get plotting, get your revenge your way. Set a trap, bombard a trade agreement, get them a cursed item through a proxy. Options, as far as I can yet perceive them, are plentiful! - Please, everybody, do remember there's a person on the other side of the screen. Try to make this fun for everybody, even the person that's going to be on the sharp end of your weapon in a minute. Make a step out for meaningful RP and don't overdo it. We are all different people and we thrive on different things, but am sure we could still have a lot of fun, while the bits of our characters fly through the aether.
You have a reputation, and it is quite possible anyone jumping you knows of it (regardless of whether you spoke to them directly or not). The PS is good advice for general use, even if it had nothing to do with this specific instance it will help with future ones.
Avechna is doing exactly what it is intended to. If you want them to kill you again, then PK FORGIVE them. Otherwise, shrug, note that they cannot touch you again, and harvest in peace.
Yes. I have a reputation for not allowing people to bully me and insult me. I stand up for myself, shocker that the bullies can't handle that right?
This is not what your reputation is for.
Personally, I do not like that Avenger takes all the roleplaying onus out of attacking someone. That's not to say that people fighting have no role-based reasons to do so, in the vast majority of times they do. It's just to say that they don't need to because killing is managed by a (mostly) ooc mechanic. I understand why it is the way it is, however. I wish that there would be some fixes regarding how it interacts with certain (conflict) quests, and that there were more avenues for open combat that aren't exclusively "forest territory", but it is what it is.
No that is what my reputation is for just that the people who tend to argue with me, also tend to be the ones who bully me and attack or insult me first so of course they would see it and word it differently. I almost never insult or verbally attack someone without them having first done so to me, honey.
Yeah, you're definitely not the one who starts being condescending first.
ahhh yes...people start talking about my "reputation" or give an answer to a simple question I asked in a way that basically treats me like an idiot and tells me i'm stupid for disliking the way something is and -i'm- the one playing a victim or being condescending. I'm blunt in the way I talk and text does make it a little harder to understand the tone or intent behind text but I said nothing disrespectful to anyone in this thread without having first been disrespected.
see now if everyone (myself included) could just learn to be as kind, polite and respectful as Lerad is when trying to explain why something is the way it is when a person is confused by it, then these little misunderstanding with people attacking others and making assumptions based on a largely ooc "reputation" wouldn't happen.
- As a non combat / newbie person I would really like to see the attacks by people be preceded / followed up by more RP. Killing someone without even loosing a word before/after is, in my eyes, just boring and no matter your reason, not RP. I think a lot of frustration could be averted if the non-combatant would actually get something out of the encounter aside from XP loss. I know I would. - Sure, I get mad when somebody 1000% my might jumps me and makes me into fine grained meat. In the end, there's a chance to turn something boring like that into something that will haunt the attacker for far longer time then your kill did. You are part of an organisation, often with very capable people who might even delight to have a change from their daily chop chop. Get plotting, get your revenge your way. Set a trap, bombard a trade agreement, get them a cursed item through a proxy. Options, as far as I can yet perceive them, are plentiful! - Please, everybody, do remember there's a person on the other side of the screen. Try to make this fun for everybody, even the person that's going to be on the sharp end of your weapon in a minute. Make a step out for meaningful RP and don't overdo it. We are all different people and we thrive on different things, but am sure we could still have a lot of fun, while the bits of our characters fly through the aether.
^^^^^^ I like her idea/post!
The problem with more RP before going into a fight is pretty simple. You tell me you're about to jump me because I'm murdering your precious illithoid, I'll be out of there in a heartbeat because I don't care to fight you in enemy territory. Option B being that I can set up a meld and be ready to start hitting you back rather than having to first set up when you warn me in advance. That's the deal with RP... and chances are if they don't want to fight you, they'll just orgbix/teleport out/call reinforcements rather than wait for you to RP some more then attack them. That's the way things work and that's why people will opt to jump you rather than interact with you before jumping you.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
- As a non combat / newbie person I would really like to see the attacks by people be preceded / followed up by more RP. Killing someone without even loosing a word before/after is, in my eyes, just boring and no matter your reason, not RP. I think a lot of frustration could be averted if the non-combatant would actually get something out of the encounter aside from XP loss. I know I would. - Sure, I get mad when somebody 1000% my might jumps me and makes me into fine grained meat. In the end, there's a chance to turn something boring like that into something that will haunt the attacker for far longer time then your kill did. You are part of an organisation, often with very capable people who might even delight to have a change from their daily chop chop. Get plotting, get your revenge your way. Set a trap, bombard a trade agreement, get them a cursed item through a proxy. Options, as far as I can yet perceive them, are plentiful! - Please, everybody, do remember there's a person on the other side of the screen. Try to make this fun for everybody, even the person that's going to be on the sharp end of your weapon in a minute. Make a step out for meaningful RP and don't overdo it. We are all different people and we thrive on different things, but am sure we could still have a lot of fun, while the bits of our characters fly through the aether.
^^^^^^ I like her idea/post!
The problem with more RP before going into a fight is pretty simple. You tell me you're about to jump me because I'm murdering your precious illithoid, I'll be out of there in a heartbeat because I don't care to fight you in enemy territory. Option B being that I can set up a meld and be ready to start hitting you back rather than having to first set up when you warn me in advance. That's the deal with RP... and chances are if they don't want to fight you, they'll just orgbix/teleport out/call reinforcements rather than wait for you to RP some more then attack them. That's the way things work and that's why people will opt to jump you rather than interact with you before jumping you.
Good point, Elan. On both ends though that is something I would consider poor RP from both the combtant and the non-combatant but I see the point absolutely.
- As a non combat / newbie person I would really like to see the attacks by people be preceded / followed up by more RP. Killing someone without even loosing a word before/after is, in my eyes, just boring and no matter your reason, not RP. I think a lot of frustration could be averted if the non-combatant would actually get something out of the encounter aside from XP loss. I know I would. - Sure, I get mad when somebody 1000% my might jumps me and makes me into fine grained meat. In the end, there's a chance to turn something boring like that into something that will haunt the attacker for far longer time then your kill did. You are part of an organisation, often with very capable people who might even delight to have a change from their daily chop chop. Get plotting, get your revenge your way. Set a trap, bombard a trade agreement, get them a cursed item through a proxy. Options, as far as I can yet perceive them, are plentiful! - Please, everybody, do remember there's a person on the other side of the screen. Try to make this fun for everybody, even the person that's going to be on the sharp end of your weapon in a minute. Make a step out for meaningful RP and don't overdo it. We are all different people and we thrive on different things, but am sure we could still have a lot of fun, while the bits of our characters fly through the aether.
^^^^^^ I like her idea/post!
The problem with more RP before going into a fight is pretty simple. You tell me you're about to jump me because I'm murdering your precious illithoid, I'll be out of there in a heartbeat because I don't care to fight you in enemy territory. Option B being that I can set up a meld and be ready to start hitting you back rather than having to first set up when you warn me in advance. That's the deal with RP... and chances are if they don't want to fight you, they'll just orgbix/teleport out/call reinforcements rather than wait for you to RP some more then attack them. That's the way things work and that's why people will opt to jump you rather than interact with you before jumping you.
Hmm. Well, the RP doesn't neccesarily always need to be before the fight, RP happening is the point. it's a little sad that Lusternia has no 'stun' mechanic that allows you to knock somebody out for a limited amount of time, thus allowing some more RP ways. And people melding the room would not even be on my list of thoughts. As for reinforcements, that's the attackers gamble, always. I see the problem, but I'm sure a solution can be found. Sometimes you want the element of surprise, that's fine. What I advocate is that the interaction as a whole should be more then "You have died". The specifics, I'm sure it can be worked on and acceptable solutions can be found.
edit: sometimes even things like "Die tainted spawn of nil" being shouted while someone charges at you would spice things up a bit. Or later looking at the corpse saying "that dead could've been avoided, if <reason>. I hope I don't have to make that move again (obviously more a goody line).
Get your friendly neighborhood druid to lock down a mouthy youngster if you want lecture time. There was a guy who exclusively hung out at the plex/in manses mudsexing. That's whatever. The problem was that he would harass and 'godmod' emote people who walked through the aetherplex, including my character and basically every other female character that walked through. The one time he steps out, I caught him and locked him down for a nice talk.
That is one example of a time where Avenger protected someone from undue harassment, but allowed an attack when really warranted.
Get your friendly neighborhood druid to lock down a mouthy youngster if you want lecture time. There was a guy who exclusively hung out at the plex/in manses mudsexing. That's whatever. The problem was that he would harass and 'godmod' emote people who walked through the aetherplex, including my character and basically every other female character that walked through. The one time he steps out, I caught him and locked him down for a nice talk.
That is one example of a time where Avenger protected someone from undue harassment, but allowed an attack when really warranted.
Excellent Example. Thanks for that.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
@Nyxx consider that Avenger is not so much an anti-conflict mechanic, as an anti-griefing mechanic. The system is less to stop players from attacking other players, but more to stop players from constantly harassing other players.
Also, not attacking non-coms is a card that gets overplayed. It is a general player rule and even then not observed by all and even when it is, is not a hard and fast rule. You certainly don't see admin characters not killing non-coms.
Players don't get to start conflict and then demand it can only take place on their terms.
As a personal rule of thumb, if someone takes a political role I am a bit cynical about such protections.
In a non-IRE game where pk didn't have mechanical protections, we took the view that if someone was looking for conflict and then found conflict, they shouldn't shouldn't cry foul. That seems like a good rule in games and in life.
Nyxx, I've ran Tremula into someone's prime territory and killed them for touching her. Granted, I'm not a very good combatant and they definitely are NOT, but that was still role-play. Tremula is a noble lady with a very condescending nature who felt attacked, and she had her vengeance. I tried to go through the proper forms of letting them know what was coming, challenging him to a duel with a dainty glove slap and denouncing him and his mother before the rest of his commune, but when he didn't respond all it took was one time hearing his name mentioned in the wrong light to set her off and charge into Glomdoring and explode his head. (Aurics are terribly fun for death messages, side note) Just being around her when the salons of high society insinuate that you're a terrible person will be enough to turn up her nose, and anything you do can be taken as an affront to her sensibilities.
You've had people make attempts to help you not be entirely non-com. I've given you advice (before the snub) on how to do so - like staying at stanza eight with a pre-imbued song and refraining as soon as someone you don't like shows up in your area. Don't act like you're some helpless victim who has always been abused and betrayed and never once thought of. Attempts have been made to help you, and rather than accepting the help and hiking up your big girl boots to change and become better (and less likely to get ganked), you're wallowing and lamenting on the forums about a mechanic that is the most balanced I've ever seen in an online game to protect people who don't want to get pk'd.
Twelve times a year is INSANE. Do you know how many times you would die to rogues in World of Warcraft in the same amount of time? And they have absolutely NO repercussion, where here they can't even gust you out of a room if you annoy them.
And this is from a non-combatant's point of view. Anyone who knew me before...I want to say....November of last year knew that I would never get into a fight with anyone. I influenced, designed, and made a living doing trades. Then I kept getting ganked by certain Celestians, and I complained about it. Magnagorans offered to help me get better, so I accepted the help and they turned me into something semi-decent (?) at combat that won't die to a simple lock as soon as I'm attacked.
Perhaps instead of thinking about how the system can be better altered/changed to fit you, you should be trying to improve yourself to meet the standards that are already set. They're pretty good standards, when you can be bothered to put the effort in and try.
Hmm. Well, the RP doesn't neccesarily always need to be before the fight, RP happening is the point. it's a little sad that Lusternia has no 'stun' mechanic that allows you to knock somebody out for a limited amount of time, thus allowing some more RP ways. And people melding the room would not even be on my list of thoughts. As for reinforcements, that's the attackers gamble, always. I see the problem, but I'm sure a solution can be found. Sometimes you want the element of surprise, that's fine. What I advocate is that the interaction as a whole should be more then "You have died". The specifics, I'm sure it can be worked on and acceptable solutions can be found.
edit: sometimes even things like "Die tainted spawn of nil" being shouted while someone charges at you would spice things up a bit. Or later looking at the corpse saying "that dead could've been avoided, if <reason>. I hope I don't have to make that move again (obviously more a goody line).
There's a wide gulf between, '...would spice things up...' and '...should be mandated...'.
You may be surprised to find out that there are some who don't like the talky parts, as in doesn't like them at all. Avenger doesn't protect what anyone says, and talking can often get you hit with an issue claiming harassment.
Whatever anyone can say about Avenger it does fairly well what it was intended to do, which is to say, reduce harassment while limiting constant admin intercession on those sorts of attacks. Mechanics like stun arguably do the opposite.
Nothing stops you from doing RP afterwards. You could write a letter. You could even write and publish a book. Where I do disagree is that RP is about words. For me RP is far more accomplishments over words. RP is simply having a role and following it, not who has the most lines (not that you said that), but it always annoys me when some NPC appears and people are trying to out "RP" each other.
edit:
Wanted to expand on something Lerad seemed to hint at. Additionally, there will be a free system for Lusternia. With that system, your org bix, and being a bit on your toes, it really should be fairly hard even if jumped for someone to kill you. Meaning, if you're a non-com and want to put even a bit of work in, you can laugh off many attempted jumpings.
5
SylandraJoin Queue for Mafia GamesThe Last Mafia Game
Briefly chiming in just to say that while I don't really do combat much (as in I haven't touched it with a ten foot pole since I got back), and thus am probably a non-com by definition, I've never really expected to be treated gently by PKers. Bluntly speaking, Lusternia is a game that includes conflict, and the more involved you become in the game, it's inevitable that you'll draw someone's negative attention. Sometimes deservedly so!
Is it frustrating to be in PVP when you yourself aren't very skilled in it? Yes. But being killed in PVP isn't the same as being griefed. Griefing, from what I've observed, comes from people harassing you with PK to the point that logging in becomes something you dread. Which is what Avenger ought to defend you against, and I'd argue, often does.
I've never felt qualified to speak on how PVP should be handled, or what it should be like, because as someone who is rather inept in combat, I don't have enough knowledge to discuss that intelligently. However, I do feel qualified in saying that if you are someone who is bad at PVP, or a "non com," being killed once in awhile doesn't have to diminish your gameplay experience. Your fun wasn't determined by PVP in the first place, so why let it get you down now?
"Oh yeah, you're a naughty mayor, aren't you? Misfile that Form MA631-D. Comptroller Shevat's got a nice gemstone disc for you, but yer gonna have to beg for it."
Also not really a combatant, more from lack of time to get better than lack of interest: if you get jumped on Prime, the RP happens with how you react to it. I've gotten killed hunting gorgogs, and actually turned it into RP with someone I RP with somewhat regularly.It isn't reasonable to expect the Avenger to take care of little tiny mortals all the time because he's protecting the fabric of reality etc etc, from a n RP standpoint. From an OOC standpoint, one kill while harvesting herbs sucks, but every time you step outside your org, you are taking your life in your hands. Should it be that way? Maybe not, but it totally fits with the lore, with the way the orgs work, etc etc.Keep in mind too: it could be worse. Anyone else remember the days of constant raids on cities/villages/cosmic planes? At least now for the most part the org areas are safe.
Kind of unrelated, but I have to ask: I heard that if I'm enemied to place A, someone I'm going to attack is also enemied to place A.. if I kill them they'll get suspect on me - is that true?
Also - if I jump someone who's an enemy of place A while I'm not and they win and kill me, I'l get suspect on them?
Saw this thread while lurking and as someone who has been both a roleplayer and a combatant here and elsewhere, I'm going to echo the sentiments of @Celina, @Synkarin, @Xenthos, etc. The Avenger system is actually incredibly non-combatant friendly, almost to a fault. The fact is that while many games may enforce a limitation in how often you can kill someone, no other IRE game actually includes actual mechanics to enforce said rule. The pros for the system are that it makes the Prime Material Plane an accessible area (for the most part) for players to engage, do their thing, or what have you without necessarily getting dragged into conflict. Another good thing is that it addresses a common issue in other games in that people flood the ISSUES system with absolute nonsense, lies, or what have you and wasting valuable administrator time having to sift through these. Are there cons with the system? Definitely. I'd say that it provides too much protection. There's nothing that prevents someone from dying and then excessively mouthing off to their killer and the killer has no recourse save killing you off-plane later, dealing with the vengeance and subsequent peacing, or resorting to an OOC means of snubbing you.
Lusternia, through its ancient and modern histories, is a game driven by conflict down to its roleplay and very mechanics. You are taking a risk whenever you just walk out of your organization, or even just hanging out within/associating with your organization. What I can recommend is that you don't "cash a check your tush can't catch" and accept that death is something that WILL happen to you by the hands of other players, which is the same for everyone. There have been many noncombatants in Lusternia's history that, while not fighters, were very capable politicians and/or incredibly word savvy/witty and held their own in that category, even outwitting combatants. I would consider it very poor roleplay for your character to mouth off to an established fighter in an opposing organization if you're not an established combatant yourself. That is probably one of the worst things you can do because you, as a person, are getting emotionally invested into your character. You have options, however. You can ask a combatant of your organization to handle the issue on your behalf (I'm sure they'd be more than happy to if you asked), you can ask for help if you get attacked, or you can be like one of those creative people I mentioned and find a hilarious/ingenious means of getting back at your attacker. I recall, after raiding prime Serenwilde a fair amount of times, getting mailed a series of nonsensical poems and foul-smelling foods. I thought it was incredibly humorous and my character was actually fairly affronted.
To summarize it, the Avenger system is fine as is. If you have a solution, however, you should post one rather than simply state that there's an issue. You need to have something to back up your claims rather than just saying, 'this system is flawed. I don't know how to fix it, but you should fix it!' Or, since you're stating that you're focused on roleplay and not a combatant, take a more creative means in getting back at your foes or ask the combatants of your organization to help you out.
Edit: Hell, now that I think about it, I wasn't even afraid of martial retaliation from Serenwilde so much as I was afraid of the verbal scolding that Xiran would give me for raiding Serenwilde. Xiran was terrifying when angry.
1 shouldn't be true, if they are enemied and you attack them (enemied yourself or not) they autodeclare you, so it's as if they actually declared you and you can kill them without fear of status.
2) Is true, if you jump someone in enemy territory (to them, not you), they again autodeclare you, so if they end up killing you, you get status. I don't know if you remember the big @Morkarion/@Kelly thing in the prison, but Mork jumped her, got killed and got status. So then he could jump her there everytime and she couldn't attack back unless she wanted Vengeance.
Thankfully *a large amount of the prime plane is outdoors so if you complete your epic quest you can escape most ganks pretty quickly. There is also a large amount of skills which can take you out of the immediate area provided that you're not hindered (and you can probably just hold down the command if you wanted to). If you keep rebounding up and reflection if you're an illusions bard then you should be pretty okay to run away. Reflection will usually give you time to move the few rooms away and if you have a decent amount of moves/unit time you can just be home free from there.
Edit: Maybe 'vast majority' was a little too much of an exaggeration
Thank you for the responses everyone. @Nienla you are right I should have given a solution but I really didnt have one becuase I clearly misunderstood the purpose of the Avenger. I get it now and after reading everyone's reasonable replies I can say I understand now and even agree that it may be flawed but it does work the way it was intended so i'll leave it at that.
Maybe they are right, maybe I do have a reputation for being a hot-head and letting things get under my skin or being salty a little TOO often and for that I'd like to apologize @Celina, @Xenthos, @Synkarin, @Ardmore (and whoever else there was) ... i'm not saying you are all correct in making assumptions about me, nor am I saying you are completely wrong either... and I'm certainly not the only hot-head in the game who lets it get under my skin a little too often. Regardless though, sorry if I came off as rude or condescending or even a bitch when I wasn't intending to be (Yes @Celina I'm even apologizing to YOU! :P )
I'll try not to get so salty/defensive/hotheaded in the future and word my questions more carefully when I have them so they sound like less of an accusation. Thanks again for your help, that's all I needed :-)
Nyxx, I've ran Tremula into someone's prime territory and killed them for touching her. Granted, I'm not a very good combatant and they definitely are NOT, but that was still role-play. Tremula is a noble lady with a very condescending nature who felt attacked, and she had her vengeance. I tried to go through the proper forms of letting them know what was coming, challenging him to a duel with a dainty glove slap and denouncing him and his mother before the rest of his commune, but when he didn't respond all it took was one time hearing his name mentioned in the wrong light to set her off and charge into Glomdoring and explode his head. (Aurics are terribly fun for death messages, side note) Just being around her when the salons of high society insinuate that you're a terrible person will be enough to turn up her nose, and anything you do can be taken as an affront to her sensibilities.
You've had people make attempts to help you not be entirely non-com. I've given you advice (before the snub) on how to do so - like staying at stanza eight with a pre-imbued song and refraining as soon as someone you don't like shows up in your area. Don't act like you're some helpless victim who has always been abused and betrayed and never once thought of. Attempts have been made to help you, and rather than accepting the help and hiking up your big girl boots to change and become better (and less likely to get ganked), you're wallowing and lamenting on the forums about a mechanic that is the most balanced I've ever seen in an online game to protect people who don't want to get pk'd.
Twelve times a year is INSANE. Do you know how many times you would die to rogues in World of Warcraft in the same amount of time? And they have absolutely NO repercussion, where here they can't even gust you out of a room if you annoy them.
And this is from a non-combatant's point of view. Anyone who knew me before...I want to say....November of last year knew that I would never get into a fight with anyone. I influenced, designed, and made a living doing trades. Then I kept getting ganked by certain Celestians, and I complained about it. Magnagorans offered to help me get better, so I accepted the help and they turned me into something semi-decent (?) at combat that won't die to a simple lock as soon as I'm attacked.
Perhaps instead of thinking about how the system can be better altered/changed to fit you, you should be trying to improve yourself to meet the standards that are already set. They're pretty good standards, when you can be bothered to put the effort in and try.
EDIT: Typos and clarification.
This is a fair assessment @Tremula. Help has been offered to me in the past and I have used it and I DO appreciate it (like all the help you and maligorn have given me with what are the best songs to have imbued and such. I actually did listen to that advice and still have those settings made. I've learned a LOT from people trying to help me and i'm not nearly as helpless as I used to be. I'm still an awful fighter though and probably always will be simply because the pk aspect doesnt really interest me to begin with.
As I said though I DO listen when help is offered or advice is given wehn it comes to my defenses and I DO appreciate it so thanks for all the help in that regard
Comments
Yeah, you're definitely not the one who starts being condescending first.
Nyxx thinks she's a victim even though she's usually the instigator. It isn't going to end well.
Forgiveness is the fragrance that the violet sheds on the heel that has crushed it.
edit: sometimes even things like "Die tainted spawn of nil" being shouted while someone charges at you would spice things up a bit. Or later looking at the corpse saying "that dead could've been avoided, if <reason>. I hope I don't have to make that move again (obviously more a goody line).
That is one example of a time where Avenger protected someone from undue harassment, but allowed an attack when really warranted.
@Nyxx consider that Avenger is not so much an anti-conflict mechanic, as an anti-griefing mechanic. The system is less to stop players from attacking other players, but more to stop players from constantly harassing other players.
Also, not attacking non-coms is a card that gets overplayed. It is a general player rule and even then not observed by all and even when it is, is not a hard and fast rule. You certainly don't see admin characters not killing non-coms.
Players don't get to start conflict and then demand it can only take place on their terms.
As a personal rule of thumb, if someone takes a political role I am a bit cynical about such protections.
In a non-IRE game where pk didn't have mechanical protections, we took the view that if someone was looking for conflict and then found conflict, they shouldn't shouldn't cry foul. That seems like a good rule in games and in life.
Ixion tells you, "// I don't think anyone else had a clue, amazing form."
You may be surprised to find out that there are some who don't like the talky parts, as in doesn't like them at all. Avenger doesn't protect what anyone says, and talking can often get you hit with an issue claiming harassment.
Whatever anyone can say about Avenger it does fairly well what it was intended to do, which is to say, reduce harassment while limiting constant admin intercession on those sorts of attacks. Mechanics like stun arguably do the opposite.
Nothing stops you from doing RP afterwards. You could write a letter. You could even write and publish a book. Where I do disagree is that RP is about words. For me RP is far more accomplishments over words. RP is simply having a role and following it, not who has the most lines (not that you said that), but it always annoys me when some NPC appears and people are trying to out "RP" each other.
edit:
Wanted to expand on something Lerad seemed to hint at. Additionally, there will be a free system for Lusternia. With that system, your org bix, and being a bit on your toes, it really should be fairly hard even if jumped for someone to kill you. Meaning, if you're a non-com and want to put even a bit of work in, you can laugh off many attempted jumpings.
Two might be true, the game treats them as having declared you when you attack them in enemy territory.
Lusternia, through its ancient and modern histories, is a game driven by conflict down to its roleplay and very mechanics. You are taking a risk whenever you just walk out of your organization, or even just hanging out within/associating with your organization. What I can recommend is that you don't "cash a check your tush can't catch" and accept that death is something that WILL happen to you by the hands of other players, which is the same for everyone. There have been many noncombatants in Lusternia's history that, while not fighters, were very capable politicians and/or incredibly word savvy/witty and held their own in that category, even outwitting combatants. I would consider it very poor roleplay for your character to mouth off to an established fighter in an opposing organization if you're not an established combatant yourself. That is probably one of the worst things you can do because you, as a person, are getting emotionally invested into your character. You have options, however. You can ask a combatant of your organization to handle the issue on your behalf (I'm sure they'd be more than happy to if you asked), you can ask for help if you get attacked, or you can be like one of those creative people I mentioned and find a hilarious/ingenious means of getting back at your attacker. I recall, after raiding prime Serenwilde a fair amount of times, getting mailed a series of nonsensical poems and foul-smelling foods. I thought it was incredibly humorous and my character was actually fairly affronted.
To summarize it, the Avenger system is fine as is. If you have a solution, however, you should post one rather than simply state that there's an issue. You need to have something to back up your claims rather than just saying, 'this system is flawed. I don't know how to fix it, but you should fix it!' Or, since you're stating that you're focused on roleplay and not a combatant, take a more creative means in getting back at your foes or ask the combatants of your organization to help you out.
Edit: Hell, now that I think about it, I wasn't even afraid of martial retaliation from Serenwilde so much as I was afraid of the verbal scolding that Xiran would give me for raiding Serenwilde. Xiran was terrifying when angry.
There is also a large amount of skills which can take you out of the immediate area provided that you're not hindered (and you can probably just hold down the command if you wanted to).
If you keep rebounding up and reflection if you're an illusions bard then you should be pretty okay to run away. Reflection will usually give you time to move the few rooms away and if you have a decent amount of moves/unit time you can just be home free from there.