So concerning this change I have mixed feelings. On the one hand, this brings things a lot more in line with one another. You've never been able to use the trans skills from, say, Herbs and Brewmeister whilst you have them inactive because they're 'inherent powers' rather than a thing you create. It also as has been mentioned raises the value of second trade, Endowment of the Arts etc.
On the other hand, I spent a huge amount of credits getting a doctoral cord and learning all these tradeskills. So I cannot get away from there being a level of suckage due to them no longer doing what they did when I first bought them. But that is the risk taken when learning things, they're all subject to change. I know this morning when I first read through it I was massively angry at the change, but I suspect it was mostly a kneejerk reaction.
Having thought about it a bit more, I wouldn't say I'm coming round to the idea but I'm definitely accepting more what I can and cannot do. For reference, I'm a demigod with changeling, second trade, a doctoral cord, and the following tradeskills: Tailoring, Jewellery, Herbs, Alchemy/Brewmeister, Bookbinding, Enchantment/Tinkering, Artisan. All of these bar Jewellery are trans (or are basically so thanks to being mostly TFed).
Importantly, I switch between High/Lowmagic too. So now, if I'm Lowmagic, I can't benefit from my Roseglasses. If I'm Highmagic, I can't benefit from Brewmeister or Herbs. But stopping to think about that. I couldn't benefit from Brewmeister or Herbs anyway - they were both ones that needed to be active. And roseglasses aren't exactly gamebreaking. Given what gives me combat relevant power ups that I "rely" on (I use the term loosely because nontrans people do fine without them), I'm most likely to want to keep Tailoring and Bookbinding active. A third trade, if/when I get one active, will probably be relevant to whichever magic I've got active.
What this change really means for me is that I have to be more proactive about switching things around. I can't go Artisan to restock the shop and forget about it - I need to remember to flex back to Bookbinding so I can still use my tome, etc. This is where I have two concerns, not for myself but for people who are not possessed of cord/billions of trades/all the time in the world:
- Firstly that it makes a doctoral cord even more vital if you've got more than one trade.
- Secondly it could have a penalising effect on those people who don't have 6+ hours a day to spend on the game but enjoy a mixture of things in the game. E.g. if I played 2h a day, I'd have to compromise between switching trades to restock my shop and keeping combat ones active if I want to fight.
I don't think these are without counterargument however. There -should- be a cost to flexing a lot, be it lessons or the cord. Making it more 'necessary' to flex back and forth doesn't really justify removing a cost IMO - it's still a choice to flex back and forth. As to the second point, well, there should be a compromise somewhere. We can't do everything, and I probably won't die to not having the 5 DMP against magic I get from my tome. Or I might go without my splendours for a fight, but guess what - a lot of people do that anyway! I know monks who go without tattoo armour because they chose to be a different trade instead.
At this point I'm just waffling on, so - the tl;dr version of this post is: I'm still super grumpy that my things don't do what they did when I bought them, but it's not as damaging a change as it appears (for me at least) and I think it does something to balance things out a bit between trades/make multiple trades worth what they cost.
And what about proofings? Do two of them just randomly stop working?
I'd like to know this too.
While I understand the point of this change, I would never have learned bookbinding if I knew this was in the works. I, like most of everyone who is not a monk or warrior, will be switching back to tailoring.
And what about proofings? Do two of them just randomly stop working?
I'd like to know this too.
While I understand the point of this change, I would never have learned bookbinding if I knew this was in the works. I, like most of everyone who is not a monk or warrior, will be switching back to tailoring.
I think my giant wall of text hides where I posted this:
Yes, all four proofings still work on splendours when you forget Tailoring.
(I also meant to note above that my perspective is that of a person with a lot of trades. I think it's good to hear from those who only have one).
Proofings stay, they're an exception. The only things affected are your armour stats.
Magictomes still work, the only thing that won't if you don't have it active is the DMP. A mighty 5 dmp. My suggestion is to save your bookbinding slot for something else and only flex bookbinding as needed anyway.
As far as the change, I don't mind it, but I did have to flex secondtrade back in, which hurt the essence, but no worries.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
It needed to happen. The whole idea that you could have all the trans items but none of the skills was a little too metagame for my tastes. Sure it sucks that you need to be tailoring to be a PKer (could probably adjust that easily enough) but alas, it's about as dumb as having nightkiss without night.
Next up is the keeping all your defs after you skillflex!
It forces every Robes user that participates in combat to have to be Tailoring.
A better change, in my opinion, is bringing up the other trade skills transcendent skills up to par with Splendours/MasterArmor, instead of forcing the combatant population to only practice tailoring.
Just another change that increases the entry cost into combat even higher.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
And yeah, I would've never even thought about a second tradeskill if I knew this change was going to happen.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I don't think it increases the cost any higher than it was. Splendours were already required.
I think the solution is to have greatrobes function like splendours and splendours function on the level of tattoomaster armour. With the recent changes to stat scaling, the effect shouldn't be huge and will make greatrobes more than just throw away armour/armour for non tailors.
Or bring all great robes up to the level or splendours and give splendours some other additional benefit.
Maybe we need to make greatrobes and splendours into one set of designs, and turn splendours into the robe's version of Plate, IE you "seal" a set of robes, giving them stats and non-decay. I know the Admin have been fighting making splendours non-decay for a while, but they've just taken away one of their reasons not to.
Everiine said: The reason population is low isn't because there are too many orgs. It's because so many facets of the game are outright broken and protected by those who benefit from it being that way. An overabundance of gimmicks (including game-breaking ones), artifacts that destroy any concept of balance, blatant pay-to-win features, and an obsession with convenience that makes few things actually worthwhile all contribute to the game's sad decline.
The supply of a lot of trade items will be going down because there are a lot less trademasters, the demand will be going up since people will be making less items. When demand goes up, prices go up.
Just a theory, but I won't be making cheap Kirigami anymore. I'm sure there are others who have to make up gold/lessons/credits by this change.
Your lesson requirement may have not increased, but I'm sure your everyday prices of a lot of things will go up.
A warning would've been nice, or more information that this change was coming or even being thrown around as a change that may come, instead the only thing mentioned in the report is this: Solution 2. Note that tradeskill trans items will also be receiving a general makeover at the same time... then bam.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Just as a note, this game is pretty "subject to change without notice." I get people are annoyed they don't have access to items they "paid" for, but paying for something has never justified anything mechanics wise. If something is not working as intended, or not in the spirit of game design (which i think this changed addressed), then things might just change on you. It's the nature of the beast. Anyone who has been an envoy should know this. Surprise change just happens.
I am sure someone will say that this helps the spirit of the game, or some other factors like that, or some other flavorful thing to brand over the fact that they just made a $600 artifact have far more value then it did two days ago.
Just as a note, this 'business' is pretty "subject to change without notice." Its the nature of the beast, when the business does enough changes that can be perceived bad, it loses its customer base.
2014/04/19 01:38:01 - Leolamins drained 2000000 power to raise Silvanus as a Vernal Ascendant.
2014/07/23 05:01:29 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Munsia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:07 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Arimisia as a Vernal Ascendant.
2015/05/24 06:03:58 - Silvanus drained 2000000 power to raise Lavinya as a Vernal Ascendant.
With being able to turn unwanted lessons into curios I think it's less of a blow. You can still get something back if you feel the need to scrap a tradeskill.
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Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
I am sure someone will say that this helps the spirit of the game, or some other factors like that, or some other flavorful thing to brand over the fact that they just made a $600 artifact have far more value then it did two days ago.
Just as a note, this 'business' is pretty "subject to change without notice." Its the nature of the beast, when the business does enough changes that can be perceived bad, it loses its customer base.
How is it worth any more? The artifact hasn't changed at all. I think you're being a little over dramatic. The artifact really won't play into how this change affects the game at all. People aren't going to skillflex 8 different trade skills in a day to use all the trans items. They can swap trade skills once a day if they really want to, but hey...they could already do that. But they still only get one trans trade item...so....artifact doesn't really mean much in that regard.
Now they just don't get the benefit of skills they don't even have. I mean, if we want to follow the logic of allowing people to use trans skills of skillsets they long since forgot, then I want archlich back. I paid for it.
I'm not going to say people are wrong for perceiving this as a bad change, but I will say the justification for calling it "bad" has been more "how this affects me" rather than "how this affects the game." I'm just saying that I don't think anyone can come up with a legitimate argument about how using skills they don't have is the way things should be. Sure it exists, but it seems the general (very obvious) intent is to only use skills you currently have access to. Sure things like doctoral chords and skillflexing allow you to bypass it, but this is the exception rather than the rule.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
PS. If all else fails, blame @Tacita for her devil report
Of course it will be worth more, as it will allow you to keep the benefits of one more active tradeskill. It's not really "far more" though, of course, but it does have an additional benefit now that it didn't have before.
I do agree that this is a bit overdramaticised. People managed to get by before skillflex without all the trans tradeskill bonuses; I'm sure everyone will be able to manage it this time too.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
Oh that. Well yes, but you can get that with a demi power too if that's what you really want.
I had the same initial reaction as Tacita; raaaaaaaaage!
But really, it doesn't feel like an absolutely game-breaking change. It makes life more difficult for those without the artifacts, but then again, they kind of want to encourage you to buy the things.
The only class with a truly legitimate issue imo would be bards (given the difficulty in swapping from high to low magic trades). Warriors and monks do not get a highmagic trade, and our lowmagic ones were automatically dormant (could not use the trans trade skill) even before this change.
Sounds like no need to bother transing all my trades to me, just a waste of lessons since I only skillflex to craft. I can live with that, though I probably would have bought the endowment instead of my cord had this change already existed a few months ago.
0
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
As for the rest of the report...I think this month went really well. I think hyperactive finally being changed and approved is a huge milestone. Glad this month went smoothly...next month has some somewhat questionable reports.
Obviously very happy with the further tweaks to Shadowdancers (and even Ebonguard!). And to think I wanted to drive over Shuyin and the admin with a bus 6 months ago for dropping twist in my lap with no help and "good luck!" Took a while (less thanks to @Inagin) but I'm happy. Patience pays off, and if you ever quote me saying that, I will deny it.
A warning would've been nice, or more information that this change was coming or even being thrown around as a change that may come, instead the only thing mentioned in the report is this: Solution 2. Note that tradeskill trans items will also be receiving a general makeover at the same time... then bam.
All I can really speak to on the topic - I'm pretty informed on the envoy process, comment on most of the reports, etc. At the time the report was approved, solution 2 was all that was discussed, as far as I'm aware. Likely the change arose from a discussion that occurred while the changes were being coded. Warning would've been given if there was much of one to give - but alas, Iosai codes at light speed, and so there wasn't much of one. In fact, I didn't even know about it until it was being talked about on the forums!
That said, more broadly speaking now, I can certainly sympathise with frustrations. Still, when these kinds of frustrations arise, I always feel the need to point out that the vast majority of the admin are unpaid, and gain nothing for their effort save the experience and whatever enjoyment we eke out of it. Every one of us - from the top down - were once players, here or elsewhere, and none of us are out to "screw" or otherwise upset anyone. Certainly, none of us are out for the money (because all save 3 are pure volunteers, and I'm certain no one is languishing in pools filled with gold jewelry).
I always get a bit frustrated when there's the accusation that greed is some motivator - Estarra loves Lusternia, that much has become abundantly clear to me over the last 5 and a half years or so that I've worked with her. She will always do what she believes is best for the long term health of the game and its player base, though the decisions aren't always popular.
So while you have every right to be frustrated and angry about the change - those are your feelings and I can't deny them to you - please realize that those kinds of accusations really have no place at the table and just tend to hurt and shut down any kind of potential discussion about ways to help alleviate the perceived problem rising from the change ("everyone now HAS to be a tailor!")
1
Cyndarinused Flamethrower! It was super effective.
A lot of the reactions have been pretty kneejerk so far. While I've suffered from it too (I sucked down 9 mil flexing back secondtrade, loss of a bunch of trans trade items), I can understand why these were done purely from a balance perspective. Same with losing unique defs when you skillflex.
We can definitely get something envoyed for the fact that now serious robewearers will have to be tailors, I'm not too worried there.
Comments
It needed to happen. The whole idea that you could have all the trans items but none of the skills was a little too metagame for my tastes. Sure it sucks that you need to be tailoring to be a PKer (could probably adjust that easily enough) but alas, it's about as dumb as having nightkiss without night.
Next up is the keeping all your defs after you skillflex!
I don't think it increases the cost any higher than it was. Splendours were already required.
I think the solution is to have greatrobes function like splendours and splendours function on the level of tattoomaster armour. With the recent changes to stat scaling, the effect shouldn't be huge and will make greatrobes more than just throw away armour/armour for non tailors.
Or bring all great robes up to the level or splendours and give splendours some other additional benefit.
This.
How is it worth any more? The artifact hasn't changed at all. I think you're being a little over dramatic. The artifact really won't play into how this change affects the game at all. People aren't going to skillflex 8 different trade skills in a day to use all the trans items. They can swap trade skills once a day if they really want to, but hey...they could already do that. But they still only get one trans trade item...so....artifact doesn't really mean much in that regard.
Now they just don't get the benefit of skills they don't even have. I mean, if we want to follow the logic of allowing people to use trans skills of skillsets they long since forgot, then I want archlich back. I paid for it.
I'm not going to say people are wrong for perceiving this as a bad change, but I will say the justification for calling it "bad" has been more "how this affects me" rather than "how this affects the game." I'm just saying that I don't think anyone can come up with a legitimate argument about how using skills they don't have is the way things should be. Sure it exists, but it seems the general (very obvious) intent is to only use skills you currently have access to. Sure things like doctoral chords and skillflexing allow you to bypass it, but this is the exception rather than the rule.
I do agree that this is a bit overdramaticised. People managed to get by before skillflex without all the trans tradeskill bonuses; I'm sure everyone will be able to manage it this time too.
But really, it doesn't feel like an absolutely game-breaking change. It makes life more difficult for those without the artifacts, but then again, they kind of want to encourage you to buy the things.
The only class with a truly legitimate issue imo would be bards (given the difficulty in swapping from high to low magic trades). Warriors and monks do not get a highmagic trade, and our lowmagic ones were automatically dormant (could not use the trans trade skill) even before this change.
As for the rest of the report...I think this month went really well. I think hyperactive finally being changed and approved is a huge milestone. Glad this month went smoothly...next month has some somewhat questionable reports.
Obviously very happy with the further tweaks to Shadowdancers (and even Ebonguard!). And to think I wanted to drive over Shuyin and the admin with a bus 6 months ago for dropping twist in my lap with no help and "good luck!" Took a while (less thanks to @Inagin) but I'm happy. Patience pays off, and if you ever quote me saying that, I will deny it.
That said, more broadly speaking now, I can certainly sympathise with frustrations. Still, when these kinds of frustrations arise, I always feel the need to point out that the vast majority of the admin are unpaid, and gain nothing for their effort save the experience and whatever enjoyment we eke out of it. Every one of us - from the top down - were once players, here or elsewhere, and none of us are out to "screw" or otherwise upset anyone. Certainly, none of us are out for the money (because all save 3 are pure volunteers, and I'm certain no one is languishing in pools filled with gold jewelry).
I always get a bit frustrated when there's the accusation that greed is some motivator - Estarra loves Lusternia, that much has become abundantly clear to me over the last 5 and a half years or so that I've worked with her. She will always do what she believes is best for the long term health of the game and its player base, though the decisions aren't always popular.
So while you have every right to be frustrated and angry about the change - those are your feelings and I can't deny them to you - please realize that those kinds of accusations really have no place at the table and just tend to hurt and shut down any kind of potential discussion about ways to help alleviate the perceived problem rising from the change ("everyone now HAS to be a tailor!")
Twists 1 through 6 still suck. JUST SO YOU KNOW. That's still a high percentage of suckage.