Townhall Meeting 24 Sep 2019

ElrynGreythaneElrynGreythane Member Posts: 114 Apprentice
ANNOUNCE NEWS #2948<br>Date: 9/24/2019 at 4:26<br>From: Estarra the Eternal<br>To  : Everyone<br>Subj: Townhall Recap<br><br><br>The main purpose of the townhall was to gauge what direction you would like to see us take since the<br>melder update has been in. After hearing everyone's concerns, our aim is to address: (1) melder <br>updates/tweaks, including looking at 2P abilities/skills and soft channels; (2) tweak the reporting <br>system per the forums and address pending reports then immediately generate new reports with the new <br>system; (3) update the ailments for autocuring. It was pointed out that this would take up our <br>resources up through November (i.e., we wouldn't be looking at other big ticket items like <br>endgame/demigod, family system, order system, warriors or other classes/skillsets).<br><br><br>The one thing I hope to echo from the meeting is the importance of newbies, how in order for<br>Lusternia to thrive that our newbies are treated like valuable resources. There is a huge difference <br>you can make by welcoming newbies into your org or guild, and even newbies who go to a different org <br>should be encouraged and treated well. If nothing else, it may encourage that newbie to be more <br>likely to join your org at some point because you've shown them who's friendly!<br><br>I really appreciate everyone who showed up and offered constructive feedback! I am really pumped<br>that there was a lot of positivity!<br><br><br> <br>Penned by My hand on the 16th of Juliary, in the year 541 CE.


(Hopefully I've edited that correctly - let me know if I've missed anything!)

Comments

  • ElrynGreythaneElrynGreythane Member Posts: 114 Apprentice
    Don't disagree on auto-learning a standard package, if that doesn't happen already. I think that's a great idea!

    My personal opinion more broadly though is that newbie communication and support is all well and good, but what hooks me as a new player is being involved in things alongside other players. And I'd say there aren't many game systems that encourage and reward players of both low and high levels to engage in activities together (at least not without a hell of a lot of investment first). Add to that the fact of how narrowly interaction with the world is usually defined in terms of interactions with your own nation only (when there might be only a couple of you online during your main play time), and I think those factors contribute quite negatively to retention potential.
  • EsoneyunaEsoneyuna Member Posts: 169 Adept
    Well I was kinda happy with the news post, now that I read the logs I am pretty much back in the screw this camp.

    no finishing GMCP messages so all affs/classes are on the same footing, still halli/mag campaigning against gaudi skill passes they themselves had recently, still the admin mantra of players need to suggest fixes instead of they themselves determining fixes to bad skills like pit (players not knowing a fix should not exclude admins having to address bad/unfun skills). Still quite obviously an envoy channel to give a bigger voice to certain players than to others just like test server access. The entire blackout is supposed to prevent AC to notice obvious affs (I mean if I can see the line during blackout, even through secondary aff lines, so should AC, that is if you truly want it to be a system that can be used in combat). 

    Also thank you for holding townhalls at the most horrible time for European players. 
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    I'm confused

    1) We're aiming to finish moving all affs into the aff system, which means they would have GMCP messages. That's part of the conversion so they can use SSC. I don't understand your blackout concern - if it's in blackout, you shouldn't see a message (even secondary ones) because the point of blackout is to hide afflictions. If it's hidden, then SSC shouldn't cure it automatically. If you're seeing secondary lines, you should bug those.

    2) The current envoy channel is simply a selection of elected players that were asked, and wanted to be, a part of them. It simply serves as a line of communication. It's giving voices to the players that are elected by their fellow players, not chosen by the admin.

    3) Additionally, test server access is open for everyone when it is time to test things. I literally make posts offering anyone a chance to test things when it's made open. I have only turned down one person and that's because it was a brand new player who made a character just to test things. 

    4) I don't understand this attitude that we can't ask players what they think needs fixed and how to fix them. It is an outdated notion that needs to go away. We have limited time and literally posts on these forums from players asking us to take advantage of them and use them for help. If you don't want to suggest fixes, don't, but don't lambast us for wanting to crowdsource and be more efficient. Why should we not take advantage of players willing to help brainstorm and bring about good changes? 

    Sorry about the timing of the townhall. I was travelling the previous week (and weekend) and we wanted to do it. We can strive to make the next townhall earlier in the day, on a weekend so more players from elsewhere can attend.
  • ElrynGreythaneElrynGreythane Member Posts: 114 Apprentice
    Orael said:

    2) The current envoy channel is simply a selection of elected players that were asked, and wanted to be, a part of them. It simply serves as a line of communication. It's giving voices to the players that are elected by their fellow players, not chosen by the admin.

    I thought the elected envoy system had been discontinued in favour of open reporting (soon to be revised with reports 2.0)... is that not the case? Is there a way to see who our current envoys are?
  • KalnidKalnid Member Posts: 560 Fabled
    I thought the elected envoy system had been discontinued in favour of open reporting (soon to be revised with reports 2.0)... is that not the case? Is there a way to see who our current envoys are?
    The envoy channel is a separate thing. He means that it's currently populated by city/guild leaders (who are player elected) who opt in.
  • DaemDaem Member Posts: 95 Capable
    Orael said:
    I'm confused

    1) We're aiming to finish moving all affs into the aff system, which means they would have GMCP messages. That's part of the conversion so they can use SSC. I don't understand your blackout concern - if it's in blackout, you shouldn't see a message (even secondary ones) because the point of blackout is to hide afflictions. If it's hidden, then SSC shouldn't cure it automatically. If you're seeing secondary lines, you should bug those.
    Just to clarify. We're more concerned about the secondary lines showing after blackout is complete, but SSC not curing it.

    Example:
    This happens a lot while hunting hawks on etherglom. They blackout and afflict paralysis under blackout. Blackout ends and the message continues to say hey "you're paralysed and cannot move!" but doesn't cure until I diagnose. 
  • ElrynGreythaneElrynGreythane Member Posts: 114 Apprentice
    Kalnid said:

    The envoy channel is a separate thing. He means that it's currently populated by city/guild leaders (who are player elected) who opt in.
    Ah, I see, thanks!

    I guess that could be a good thing, if feedback is needed quickly before a change goes in. Personally, I'd probably prefer a channel like that able to be heard by any player that opts in, even if only the IC leaders and admin can speak on it and give feedback.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    edited September 2019
    Daem said:
    Orael said:
    I'm confused

    1) We're aiming to finish moving all affs into the aff system, which means they would have GMCP messages. That's part of the conversion so they can use SSC. I don't understand your blackout concern - if it's in blackout, you shouldn't see a message (even secondary ones) because the point of blackout is to hide afflictions. If it's hidden, then SSC shouldn't cure it automatically. If you're seeing secondary lines, you should bug those.
    Just to clarify. We're more concerned about the secondary lines showing after blackout is complete, but SSC not curing it.

    Example:
    This happens a lot while hunting hawks on etherglom. They blackout and afflict paralysis under blackout. Blackout ends and the message continues to say hey "you're paralysed and cannot move!" but doesn't cure until I diagnose. 
    Right, that's a known symptom issue.

    We need to move all affs to the aff system in order to efficiently deal with that. That is another one of the goals of moving things to the aff system.

    Not a blackout issue though, for the time being, you can trigger those lines to use the SSC guess function
    Post edited by Orael on
  • EsoneyunaEsoneyuna Member Posts: 169 Adept
    Orael said:
    I'm confused

    1) We're aiming to finish moving all affs into the aff system, which means they would have GMCP messages. That's part of the conversion so they can use SSC. I don't understand your blackout concern - if it's in blackout, you shouldn't see a message (even secondary ones) because the point of blackout is to hide afflictions. If it's hidden, then SSC shouldn't cure it automatically. If you're seeing secondary lines, you should bug those.

    2) The current envoy channel is simply a selection of elected players that were asked, and wanted to be, a part of them. It simply serves as a line of communication. It's giving voices to the players that are elected by their fellow players, not chosen by the admin.

    3) Additionally, test server access is open for everyone when it is time to test things. I literally make posts offering anyone a chance to test things when it's made open. I have only turned down one person and that's because it was a brand new player who made a character just to test things. 

    4) I don't understand this attitude that we can't ask players what they think needs fixed and how to fix them. It is an outdated notion that needs to go away. We have limited time and literally posts on these forums from players asking us to take advantage of them and use them for help. If you don't want to suggest fixes, don't, but don't lambast us for wanting to crowdsource and be more efficient. Why should we not take advantage of players willing to help brainstorm and bring about good changes? 

    Sorry about the timing of the townhall. I was travelling the previous week (and weekend) and we wanted to do it. We can strive to make the next townhall earlier in the day, on a weekend so more players from elsewhere can attend.
    1) didn’t know GMCP and AC where linked like that. I’ll bug when I have time
    2) I don’t recall any help file saying your CL or GM also access to a channel for mechanical game changes. Cause if it had I would have voted entirely different in 90% of elections with the mindset of screw RP cause mechanics have the biggest impact.
    3) funny cause I asked and send a reminder and never got a reply. And I am fairly sure I am not a new player.
    4) There is a big difference between asking ideas and the attitude of give alternatives or else forget about it. There also seems to be a notion that players are capable of balancing. If that were the case envoys did not have to die, yet we are all glad they did. The entire rock is OP, paper is fine - scissors is very prevalent in Lusternia.

    Having townhalls on Saturday would be great.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    Esoneyuna said:
    Orael said:
    I'm confused

    1) We're aiming to finish moving all affs into the aff system, which means they would have GMCP messages. That's part of the conversion so they can use SSC. I don't understand your blackout concern - if it's in blackout, you shouldn't see a message (even secondary ones) because the point of blackout is to hide afflictions. If it's hidden, then SSC shouldn't cure it automatically. If you're seeing secondary lines, you should bug those.

    2) The current envoy channel is simply a selection of elected players that were asked, and wanted to be, a part of them. It simply serves as a line of communication. It's giving voices to the players that are elected by their fellow players, not chosen by the admin.

    3) Additionally, test server access is open for everyone when it is time to test things. I literally make posts offering anyone a chance to test things when it's made open. I have only turned down one person and that's because it was a brand new player who made a character just to test things. 

    4) I don't understand this attitude that we can't ask players what they think needs fixed and how to fix them. It is an outdated notion that needs to go away. We have limited time and literally posts on these forums from players asking us to take advantage of them and use them for help. If you don't want to suggest fixes, don't, but don't lambast us for wanting to crowdsource and be more efficient. Why should we not take advantage of players willing to help brainstorm and bring about good changes? 

    Sorry about the timing of the townhall. I was travelling the previous week (and weekend) and we wanted to do it. We can strive to make the next townhall earlier in the day, on a weekend so more players from elsewhere can attend.
    1) didn’t know GMCP and AC where linked like that. I’ll bug when I have time
    2) I don’t recall any help file saying your CL or GM also access to a channel for mechanical game changes. Cause if it had I would have voted entirely different in 90% of elections with the mindset of screw RP cause mechanics have the biggest impact.
    3) funny cause I asked and send a reminder and never got a reply. And I am fairly sure I am not a new player.
    4) There is a big difference between asking ideas and the attitude of give alternatives or else forget about it. There also seems to be a notion that players are capable of balancing. If that were the case envoys did not have to die, yet we are all glad they did. The entire rock is OP, paper is fine - scissors is very prevalent in Lusternia.

    Having townhalls on Saturday would be great.
    1) Converting affs to the aff system is what gives the GMCP messages. Having everything in a unified system makes it so much easier to make SSC better and more useful to players in general.
    2) The envoy channel does not make mechanical game changes anymore. As I said, it now serves only as a line of communication and each envoy is told that when they are asked if they want to join.
    3) You did not ask me for access to the test server, I have no messages from you regarding that, either in-game or on the forums. I'm not sure where you sent the message, but I never received it.
    4) There has never been a 'give alternatives or forget about it.' I've been pretty straight forward about what I am working on and what I have time to work on and my feelings on that matter. Yes, players have a bias, but that doesn't mean they are entirely incapable of providing ideas and suggestions that lead to fixes/changes that genuinely benefit the game. 
  • EsoneyunaEsoneyuna Member Posts: 169 Adept
    2) a line that still biases admins to the vision of a few people who are not chosen for that by players. And if it had no influence why have it at all.
    3) asked on forums via pm, twice
    4) Estarra did pretty much say that and not for the first time.
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 7,036 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    Daem said:
    Orael said:
    I'm confused

    1) We're aiming to finish moving all affs into the aff system, which means they would have GMCP messages. That's part of the conversion so they can use SSC. I don't understand your blackout concern - if it's in blackout, you shouldn't see a message (even secondary ones) because the point of blackout is to hide afflictions. If it's hidden, then SSC shouldn't cure it automatically. If you're seeing secondary lines, you should bug those.
    Just to clarify. We're more concerned about the secondary lines showing after blackout is complete, but SSC not curing it.

    Example:
    This happens a lot while hunting hawks on etherglom. They blackout and afflict paralysis under blackout. Blackout ends and the message continues to say hey "you're paralysed and cannot move!" but doesn't cure until I diagnose. 
    Right, that's a known symptom issue.

    We need to move all affs to the aff system in order to efficiently deal with that. That is another one of the goals of moving things to the aff system.

    Not a blackout issue though, for the time being, you can trigger those lines to use the SSC guess function
    I just want to reiterate that "coding around issues in SSC" is not ideal and what many of us were getting at in that townhall conversation.  It sounds like you are on the same page, but the better SSC works "out of the box," the better for the game as a whole.
    This includes tweaks to some of the curative queues and their default prioritizations (especially Ice and mutilated limb affs having a lower priority than they should).
    Esoneyuna: The envoy channel right now is essentially a Bat Signal.  It lets people send up a flare when requested by their org.  The admin get a little advance notice of upcoming issues.  This also includes things like "Help my novice is stuck in an enemy territory and because he is under level 31 he cannot move at all!!"  This has nothing to do with game balance but is a pretty significant / impactful bug for that newbie's game enjoyment.
    Envoys are now in the business of trying to keep things flowing and passing information, NOT the business of making mechanics changes.
    image
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    Esoneyuna said:
    2) a line that still biases admins to the vision of a few people who are not chosen for that by players. And if it had no influence why have it at all.
    3) asked on forums via pm, twice
    4) Estarra did pretty much say that and not for the first time.
    2) It does have a positive impact, that's why we have it.
    3) I never received a message from you on the forums regarding that. Next time, shoot me a message directly in-game and I'll send you the info.
    4) If that's how you took it, you misunderstood. I felt like she was saying that submitting potential changes to guardians (Nihilists/Illuminati etc) would mean that when it comes time to us to take a look at them, we have a base to work from and the whole process would go much faster than if we started from scratch. That's how I look at it. It certainly doesn't mean that we'll be able to get to it anytime soon (things come up, priorities change etc) but it also certainly doesn't mean 'if you don't do this, we will never do anything'
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 478 Creator
    Xenthos said:
    Orael said:
    Daem said:

    I just want to reiterate that "coding around issues in SSC" is not ideal and what many of us were getting at in that townhall conversation.  It sounds like you are on the same page, but the better SSC works "out of the box," the better for the game as a whole.
    This includes tweaks to some of the curative queues and their default prioritizations (especially Ice and mutilated limb affs having a lower priority than they should).

    I mean yeah, I'm on the same page there (and I have been). It just didn't make sense to put a huge amount of effort to make the symptom lines work until we get everything moved over and moving everything over is tedious and time-consuming.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 1,352 Mythical
    Orael said:
    Esoneyuna said:
    2) a line that still biases admins to the vision of a few people who are not chosen for that by players. And if it had no influence why have it at all.
    3) asked on forums via pm, twice
    4) Estarra did pretty much say that and not for the first time.
    4) If that's how you took it, you misunderstood. I felt like she was saying that submitting potential changes to guardians (Nihilists/Illuminati etc) would mean that when it comes time to us to take a look at them, we have a base to work from and the whole process would go much faster than if we started from scratch. That's how I look at it. It certainly doesn't mean that we'll be able to get to it anytime soon (things come up, priorities change etc) but it also certainly doesn't mean 'if you don't do this, we will never do anything'
    Esoneyuna is mostly (this time, I think) referencing the 'delete pits' comments (most of which I think are serious and not jokes). Estarra said "we need something to replace them with then", when most of us don't see the need to replace them with anything.
  • PysynnePysynne Member Posts: 136 Adept
    Ayisdra said:
    Orael said:
    Esoneyuna said:
    2) a line that still biases admins to the vision of a few people who are not chosen for that by players. And if it had no influence why have it at all.
    3) asked on forums via pm, twice
    4) Estarra did pretty much say that and not for the first time.
    4) If that's how you took it, you misunderstood. I felt like she was saying that submitting potential changes to guardians (Nihilists/Illuminati etc) would mean that when it comes time to us to take a look at them, we have a base to work from and the whole process would go much faster than if we started from scratch. That's how I look at it. It certainly doesn't mean that we'll be able to get to it anytime soon (things come up, priorities change etc) but it also certainly doesn't mean 'if you don't do this, we will never do anything'
    Esoneyuna is mostly (this time, I think) referencing the 'delete pits' comments (most of which I think are serious and not jokes). Estarra said "we need something to replace them with then", when most of us don't see the need to replace them with anything.
    This is very much true, barring a couple people, everyone has been in agreement for a few years to delete pits and make the rest of tracking traps worth using. Instead they just keep getting some band-aid fix.
  • SaranSaran Member Posts: 2,443 Transcendent
    edited September 2019
    Pysynne said:
    Ayisdra said:

    Esoneyuna is mostly (this time, I think) referencing the 'delete pits' comments (most of which I think are serious and not jokes). Estarra said "we need something to replace them with then", when most of us don't see the need to replace them with anything.
    This is very much true, barring a couple people, everyone has been in agreement for a few years to delete pits and make the rest of tracking traps worth using. Instead they just keep getting some band-aid fix.
    There's also a bit of irony in band-aids given they're prioritised because they're small and quick, but they start to add up if they don't actually fix the issue. 


    The prioritisation is also another place the "alternatives or forget about it" can come from.
    Things that have solutions provided, that are accepted, get a higher priority. Same with things that are simpler to resolve, etc. But there's always stuff coming up which is going to push down the issues that get a low priority because they're difficult or are more time intensive etc.
    Post edited by Saran on
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