Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

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  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 208 Adept
    edited July 14
    Choros don't retire. At least, wait a week, then revisit your decision. 💯 you are allowed to feel the way you do, but using language like 'dont be my friend anymore' to (some) of the same people who took time out of their day to raise you, wrote scripts for you, etc is loaded and surely you see that?

    Re: supporting Choros vs Suppressing the other side. Why would Glom help Halifax icly? Part of the RP was to ensure an alliance, yes, but definitely part of the RP is to suppress the other side. This isn't a mark against the players being super spiteful or something, it's the legitimate RP. Unsure why that seems so ludicrous an idea.

    For the admins, this is... Questionable management. You have made people happy temporarily, but rolling back decisions in this manner has opened you up to a lot of future losses. Essentially,any time you do not listen to players and roll back things in their favor, you are going to probably lose them. A company that shows weakness like this, well, good luck.
  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 113 Adept
    edited July 14
    I can't believe how many people are pinning their enjoyment of the game to making Ixion lose.  :D


    edit; Re: Synl, I think (and this is my personal interpretation) Choros thought that you guys did that because you genuinely wanted him to win, not that you just wanted Ixion to lose. If I were in his shoes and realized that people don't actually liked me, they just hated the other guy so much...I would similarly do what he's thinking of doing.
    It's pronounced "Maggy'!

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  • JasonJason Member Posts: 6 Inept
    @Mboagn ofcourse we wanted him to win and we are happy that he did win, we see him as a friend not an object to be used. Choros is an amazing person, Shaddus is an amazing guy, full of humour but another main reason we fought so hard was to stop a most formidable opponent gaining even more power.
  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 113 Adept
    TA is extra special, sure, but aren't all ascendants essentially just domoth mules? I've only been around for a few months, but that doesn't seem like enough power to warrant this grand campaign.

    And, from reading the comments of some Halli/Glom/Celest players, it does tend to read like you just supported Choros because there was literally no other choice (Ciaran was a better runner, thus, Choros was the default holder). It seems like support for him was a very small motivator in the face of Ixion stompage.
    It's pronounced "Maggy'!

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  • SynlSynl Member Posts: 208 Adept
    I do not envy your job Orael, I've always said. Glad to see you are sticking to your decision and your reasons for making it. I just think it will have negative repercussions in the long run, but I could very well be wrong there. Certainly I hope it does not, since I would be an affected party being a player.

    There's some bleeding of ic and ooc motivations here. So definitely hard to say you should or shouldn't be upset for supporting choros vs attacking Ixion. Probably back to normal in a week or so. Personally I think it's really naive for any one from Halifax or Celest, icly, to think the Glomdoring was supporting them for the sake of friendship. Mutual enemies etc is clearly the more obvious goal? But I'm also not Shadow Court, so just thinking out loud.
  • AlexandriaAlexandria Member Posts: 384 Fabled
    Synl said:
    There's some bleeding of ic and ooc motivations here. So definitely hard to say you should or shouldn't be upset for supporting choros vs attacking Ixion. Probably back to normal in a week or so. Personally I think it's really naive for any one from Halifax or Celest, icly, to think the Glomdoring was supporting them for the sake of friendship. Mutual enemies etc is clearly the more obvious goal? But I'm also not Shadow Court, so just thinking out loud.
    I wasn't part of any IC ascension discussions, as I knew I would be stuck working whether I liked it or not. However, there have been IC overtures made between Shadow Court and Board before and after the change, and I don't think it should be assumed as naivete or an assumption of friendship. Pragmatism was definitely a big part of what discussions I was involved in IC, with touches of spite and other longstanding emotions that were not neutral. I'd be more willing to be detailed in character, but it's too late at night for me to talk through Allie's motives OOCly.

    Czixi, the Welkin murmurs, "Fight on, My Effervescent Sylph. I will be with you as you do."

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  • DrastrathDrastrath Member Posts: 73 Novice
    I have been asleep for a long time, and a family event prevented me from even trying to participate without my system being rebuilt. 

    A few things to remember, TA used to be more important than just RP before the wonderful changes that allow demi-gods access to many of the powers reserved for TAs and VAs. This is where the "keep enemies from obtaining TA" thought stems from because it created a benefit to have TA's and opening up VA slots. The importance of this has been lessened. 

    After returning, I have seen a lot of great changes, and some things that still need work. I really hope we cut the admins some slack here, and we remember that they are likely our friends and fellow mudders (a very small community). Since my time away, I have played several DnD/Pathfinder games because one of my personal friends is an awesome DM. My point with this is that I don't always agree with his choices and decisions in his campaign. However, I never get personally upset with him because he is doing it because he loves it, and his intent is for the enjoyment of all his players. I feel our admins are not just admins, but they are our DMs. Our characters are players. We all love the story, rp, character creation, skill theory, and combat. From what I can see, the stun was overpowered due to lag which our "DMs" have proposed several changes to resolve this. Also, I believe most combatants are more than capable of raising a shield to defend against these high power cost skills, so the lag probably made the stun from creeping seem more OP than normal (not saying the skill is op or that it is not op). I have played with and against both sides, and I know they work hard and go through several options to always find the edge.

    I believe the DMs recognize this, and the solution of raising both is the correct answer. However, I do believe we need an RP reason that a second TA was raised. Maybe the seal Ixion held leaked and he somehow needs to fix that. One note, before Ascension is changed just remember how easily a new event can be determined by a command like path which happened in the one Ascension that was different. 

    Lastly, I hope if I had offended you prior to my time away that you accept my personal apology for any past wrongdoings. If you would like to grant me the opportunity personally apologize then I would be happy to apologize.

    Congrats to both Choros and Ixion. You both are deserving and excellent combatants. 



  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 113 Adept
    Does anyone have a list of who all attended Final Ascension?
    It's pronounced "Maggy'!

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  • YinuishYinuish Member Posts: 47 Capable
    Parhelion said:
    Against my better judgement, and while staring at messages that I asked people not to send me, I'm just going to retire most of my characters, leave all of my OOC clans, stay off the forums and discord, and stick around on Parhelion. 

    So, yeah. Good luck to all of you.
    Not going to apologise for caring about you because you have been a friend for a long time.  

    But I've done the same, left all discord servers and all my clans are off. I feel like a lot of the resentment and fallout from this issue is that for a lot of people the current personal situation has amplified all negative feelings, and to enjoy the game again I think a lot of us would benefit from trying to be more IC about things for a while. 
  • NerakaNeraka Member Posts: 1 Inept
    I'll echo Xenthos' comments. Transparency in decisions and discussions should be what the admin shoot for, and the free-flow discussion is better suited in a chat based model than a forum post model. As a recent returnee, I thought the forum posts were mostly dead and there's this "unofficial Discord" that looks pretty rough and unmoderated. I think it's in the interest of attracting new players and keeping the old ones to have an officially supported chat server where clear lines of responsibility are held. Sum up the Discord chat with a tl;dr post into the forums, sure, but make clear where the official lines are. Would likely have helped the whole situation here from bubbling over.
  • JolantheJolanthe Member Posts: 563 Mythical
    That sort of thing might be fine if it came with OOC announcements about particular discussions, to alert in-game players to them so they won't miss out. I still won't use discord, but it'd feel like an attempt was made to include me properly.
  • AfolliaAfollia Member Posts: 81 Capable
    Thank you, Orael, for taking the time to write this for everyone.
  • JolantheJolanthe Member Posts: 563 Mythical
    Orael said:
    We won't be getting rid of TA, that's something too integral to Lusternia, but we can change how that status is obtained. The current situation just seems to encourage people to be toxic and horrible to each other.
    This is going to be an issue with any mark or status with this particular degree and depth of prestige. It's also certainly why I ended up exerting no IC desire to really invest towards that end goal, despite having various people suggest such to me. It just doesn't really feel worth going through the trouble to try to usurp every last other option and conceptually just feels selfish over sacrificial.

    The one thing that really separates Ascension from the seal trials, imo, is the utter pinpoint focus in it. The sealbearers have no way of all trying to make progress at the same time, as participants in the seal trials do - they just have to make loads of choices and go through their arguments with their allies before they even go up, then deal with enemy contention on top. Everything pivots entirely on who is going to try to hold the staff long enough, and any significant competition between more than two parties would just reeeeeeeally drag it on.

    I feel like just letting everyone have a better shot together might go a long way in producing a tonal shift - how to accomplish that in a compelling manner that is balanced between parties, on the other hand, would be quite challenging to map out.
  • EveEve Member Posts: 13 Novice
    Here yet again, I will reiterate that the above is a personal opinion. I quit in 2012/2013 (ish?)  I hear you all speak of these things I -didn't- get to see, or simply have forgotten with age. 

    As with what has been a separate topic entirely, what is evident to one person is not always such to another. One side you see of a person isn't always the same side another sees. The same can be held true with complaints.  

    We're all human, or as much as we can be sending little tid-bits of info through a computer. I understand that its a frustrating experience to be dealing with, and I do not evny you or any of the crew. 
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 1,296 Mythical
    Eve said:
    Now. Lag, yes that was the issue. Both sides had it, both sides fought through it. One side won in a huge upset. Things happen. I have to look at this the same way I look at sports because seals are competitive in nature. You want them in order to get to Ascension, you have to earn them. In American football, do they change the outcome of a game because a player slips on some ice and breaks their ankle? No. In some way, that is what has been done here. We all went to the Super Bowl of Lusternia, and it was a GREAT game. But one side lost, the other side won.  However, they've both been given the rings. The side that "lost" will now be given a special event in their honour and the player they "supported" will now be gifted a unique TA title, while the guy the "winning" side supported gets treated like every other Joe Smith that came before him.
    Bolded parts the the big points and the crux of why a lot of people are upset. Special events and unique titles are much more of a reward than the standard one (which Choros got).
    Orael said:
    Again, accusations of bias and doing this specifically for one person. How many times have we heard these same accusations regarding Glomdoring and Xenthos in particular? We didn't favor Glomdoring and Xenthos back then and we're certainly not favoring Magnagora and Ixion now.
     
    The difference between Xenthos' special event and now is that Xenthos still won Ascension that year. Ixion did not win this year.
    Regardless of Parhelion being 'True Ascension of Justice' or not, Ixion getting a special event and Unique TA aspect is a much more 'first place' prize feel to it than 'you got second'
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 434 Creator
    edited July 15
    I already said I would speak to Aonia about yours and others concerns here Ayisdra - we've spoken briefly but did not come to any consensus. I certainly understand these feelings and think they are very valid concerns. I don't have anything more I can say on that point right now.

    re:Xenthos - I'm not talking about his special event, I'm talking about historic accusations that we are biased towards Glomdoring and Xenthos in particular. Accusations that have happened since I've become Asst Producer. 


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