Announce Post #3061: Ascension Postmortem

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  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 110 Adept
    I agree with almost all of what Ruiku said, except I think we should at least try to reach out to "toxic" players. Call me optimistic or naive, but I'm a believer of the idea that toxicity is an aspect of situations, not persons, and situations can be fixed to the betterment of everyone.
    It's pronounced "Maggy'!

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,935 Transcendent
    Thank you for going back to my post; I appreciate the reply.  Because that announce did hurt for the reasons specified, and having that recognized does help a little at least.
    There were other posts written while you were making that one, I think.  I would be interested in hearing your thoughts on those as well.
    image
  • CiaranCiaran Member Posts: 819 Mythical
    Orael said:

    @Ciaran and the rest of Equinox - I understand your frustration here better than most. I personally know what it feels like to have all your efforts, planning, preparation, rallying the team, planning for contingencies and how to combat specific strategies, etc, all thrown out the window and your win attributed to lag. We're not trying to push some narrative that you didn't work hard or that you wouldn't have won without it. The issue is that we simply don't know because the score was too close. It's quite possible that the only reason Ixion got within 4 minutes was entirely because of the lag just as much as it's possible that Choros did win because of the lag. The issue with the level of lag that you faced in this situation quite possibly did affect the outcome. That level of lag starts putting much more emphasis on luck than it does on skill. Ciaran even says himself that in the end, it was more about who was closest than who was fastest. 
    I think you have made it clear here that you don't. I can only speak for myself, but the issue was never that people were pushing a narrative that I didn't agree with. It was totally fine letting them vent on discord and on all of the various other platforms to the admin. I knew that arguing with them point for point would only make things more hurtful and contentious. What I never expected or foresaw was that their narrative would retroactively change the outcome of ascension.

    I appear to have failed to properly convey this with my post.
    Take great care of yourselves and each other.
  • AyisdraAyisdra Member Posts: 1,291 Mythical
    Mirae said:
    Ayisdra said:
    It has been said that Ixion will get TA and a special event to go along with it. This is just more salt to the wound. It will be even worse if he is claimed as a TA of Time like it seems like it will be. Even if there are no domoth powers to Time, having him be the first and only TA of Time would be an insult. Could I be wrong? Absolutely, but any sort of special TA-ness is just wrong and makes Ixion seem like the actually winner over Choros.
    Where is it stated that Ixion would receive the TA of Time? As for what I know, he was the Sealbearer of Chaos. Considering that this Ascension has been particularly chaotic, it would make sense that Ixion would receive TA of Chaos instead.


    It hasn't been said, no. But this an important point of the arguement. How does raising Ixion to TA differ from Choros? Choros is the one who won Ascension (regardless of why). That's first place. So, there are a few choices. Give Ixion TA of Chaos (and the 3 free powers that come with that) and have 2 first places and it is like Ascension never really happen. Or give Ixion TA of Time (or something similar) that gives 0 free powers and does feel more second place on the surface until you get to the whole 'special event and unique title' part which is much more of a first place feeling. It is just I don't see how the admin are going to do the RP this and not have it feel like Ixion got the better prize.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne Member Posts: 3,030 Transcendent
    I think also raising Ciaran would've been a fine idea, as postulated by Xenthos. In my opinion, he was forced by circumstance to be the runner. Having to give up TA with no recourse, but still being expected to try your best is a tough thing to do that requires maturity and grace.

    Ciaran, I wish you'd waited to see what might happen. I hope you find something worthwhile to fill your time if not Lusternia.

    image
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 641 Expert
    I am noting people directly telling me they were approached ON DISCORD to get them to be willing to break the treaty at that exact time. Who pushed and prodded to get them to be on board? No idea. 

    It is not about you, and you are the only one who seems to be responding assuming it is just you. It became a city effort, but the reasons behind it have been largely Discord based, which is WHY I asked about it in game. To have a better leg to stand on for justification.
  • OraelOrael Member, Administrator, Moderator, Gods Posts: 429 Creator
    This is getting of topic again, let's try to bring it back. Thank you
  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,935 Transcendent
    Orael said:
    This is getting of topic again, let's try to bring it back. Thank you

    Are you back?  I'd like to see a reply to the post Maligorn referenced, if you have any thoughts to add.
    image
  • MelechMelech Member Posts: 10 Novice
    edited July 15
    @Ciaran, genuinely sorry to see you go, you were solid PK competition!

    I can’t say I understand the competitive angle you discussed in your post, though. Everything about planning and preparation applies equally to both sides.

    To me, ascension felt like a hockey game played on melted ice. We all tried to skate around on the arena floor, and all our sticks broke, but that one guy who brought rollerblades wiped the floor with everyone else.

    I don’t see the ascension we just played as a competitive event because the platform for playing under normal, competitive circumstances was entirely undermined. Sure, a few tricks worked, but 95% of our skills, reactions, timings, etc. on both sides were unavailable to us. Boring.

    So you’re left with replaying the game when the ice freezes, or giving both teams their participation trophy even though Team Rollerblader was technically up 2:1 when the time ran out.

    I’d also be fine with ascending Ciaran, though evidently that’s a moot point now... and transparently, I’m just in it for the PK anyway and don’t care much about the outcome. Although ascending a non-seal holder would seem a little out there, even for me.

  • GabeGabe Member Posts: 62 Capable
    edited July 15
    Xenthos said:
    How can this situation be fixed at this point?  I am kind of at a loss.  There was a rush to make and post a decision asap.  The clearest possible alternative to undoing the decision would have been to raise Ciaran as well, I guess.  Something is not as special if it is shared, and giving a "bonus ta" to both sides might have been easier to swallow.  The event could have been thus presented as a unified thing for all sides to come together on... but, well.  That is not possible now.  I know Ciaran asked them about the possibility, no idea if he ever got a reply though.
    I guess we can see if people would put their money where their mouth is.  Aramel was the runner up for Justice; Aramel was also (arguably) the most key person on our team.  If anyone deserves recognition for the win, I would rate her highly.  Evette and Jaspet were just short on Death, putting in an incredible performance, and one of them was tagged as MVP by Choros for simply keeping him alive.  Tarken was the runner up for War, and ceded the seal to Ciaran because he couldn't see us having a chance and thought someone who did not have a seal should get one.
    We are already bending the event here.  Would any of you people be willing to accept one of these four as a "runner-up TA" (whatever the heck we are going to call it)?
    As I said in my previous post, we're just not seeing the consideration going both ways here.  I don't think that this idea is even seriously on the table from the admin pov btw, it is simply a "food for thought" query.
    I've refrained from commenting thus far, because it's the forums and mirroring what a few others have said - It's wandering into a fire, but I'm choosing to do that now. Should it be a fire? No. It's a game, but I understand that as humans we all have feelings which can bleed through, just like reading a book etc.

    I could add further opinion and comment, but I think it's adding fuel to the fire? I will in some shape or form, but hesitantly.

    A) We all suffered the lag. I don't think there is one person who joined that didn't.

    B) We don't know who would have won because Aramel and a few others really did go to town on pulling people together. Those people they banded together also spent out to help. Just like the opposite side did, I presume. 

    C) What if there was no lag and Parhelion won anyway? 

    D) People are angry because while we might have won due to pulling together, using up personal time, spending out, staying up late - Everyone worked for him to win. I think people on our side are feeling frustrated, because giving away TA, feels like giving the other side compensation...rather than a win. I don't know either characters very well IC/OOC, so I am not personally going to comment on them. 

    E) On the other hand - The other side also spent out and used up their personal time and now have a TA. It's two sides of a coin. 

    With all of that being said; What -is- the resolution? Will there be one? Can there be one? What do we want as a resolution? Raise a second TA? Compensate every single person who participated on -both- sides? I am also well aware that having an opinion doesn't make you right, either. 

    Moving on: Xenthos Mentioned about making the Discord Official. I support this comment. So many times it devolves into slanging matches and people who want to enjoy the game, on both sides, end up sitting in silence or just QQ'ing permanently. Granted, they have a choice to stay out of OOC, but a lot of things happen on Discord as we can see is emerging. SM have recently made their Discord Official and linked it to the Newbie channel - It's actually a pretty nice addition. While they still have some flinging matches, I don't think it's half as bad. It gives it a formal and moe business like feel (IMO).  I'm also increasingly aware of how easy it is for a minority of people (lately) to spread mal-information between Orgs and lambast others, while sitting pretty and unaffected. Yet, when those Org's come together you notice a completely different side and they are actually pretty nice. I won't go into further detail on this, because I'm trying to be thoughtful. It happens on both sides, though. It's bad that we feel the need to request it, because adults should be able to school their behaviours when online. 

    All-in-all...the game has lost a great guy - Ciaran. 

    That's my two-penneth worth. 
  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen CanadaMember Posts: 1,504 Transcendent
    edited July 15

    If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.

    If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did. This announcement was a shock, encouraging for some and discouraging for others. We were not prepared for it, because it was quite literally dumped on us after the event for which an outcome had already been established, and because we were working with the precedent set by the thirteen other Ascension events that have happened in the past of a single TA rising after the competition ended. Sometimes, you put forth tremendous effort, and you win. Sometimes, you lose. I trust past Ascension competitors understand and accept that (in most cases), because that was the reality. Now, however, recompense is suddenly being offered for issues caused by the game. Game-caused issues have not been absent in past Ascensions, be them lag, skill balances, etc. So where are those second TA's? How is this fair to any of the others who have "come close" to winning in the past, but didn't, for whatever reason?

    If things are going to be re-evaluated for future Ascensions in terms of how the event works, that sounds promising! Why, however, is what is essentially a hotfix that damages other, significantly-sized portions of the game being applied instead of waiting for the application of a sounder solution at a later date?

    I still do not understand this decision or how it's being perceived as fair to all, especially in regards to past events as I've mentioned above. Perhaps it's considered fair to some parties, and as much as the phrase "special treatment" has been thrown around, that is what it is. Not for Ixion personally, perhaps, but in regards to the event itself - and it's a treatment being applied after all was said and done.

    Incidentally, the fact that this is moving forward with the full knowledge that it's hurting one competitive group while appeasing the other after an outcome had already been established is disheartening, to say the least. It's not just an IC blow -- it's also the mere principle of it. It's as disheartening to hear "we did consider your side when making this decision, very thoroughly" with the underlying conclusion of going ahead and trodding over that side anyway. Was that considered the lesser evil? Or would re-running the event on "fairer" playing grounds have been?


    Edit: removed a now-moot point.


    Post edited by Rancoura on

    Tonight amidst the mountaintops
    And endless starless night
    Singing how the wind was lost
    Before an earthly flight

  • JaspetJaspet Member Posts: 75 Capable
    Rancoura said:

    I would like to see the event re-run after the lag issues are fixed. Be that later this summer or next year, however long it takes. If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.

    Our primary runner just killed himself IC over the handling of this event, so it would be hard to replicate at this point.
  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen CanadaMember Posts: 1,504 Transcendent
    Jaspet said:
    Rancoura said:

    I would like to see the event re-run after the lag issues are fixed. Be that later this summer or next year, however long it takes. If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.

    Our primary runner just killed himself IC over the handling of this event, so it would be hard to replicate at this point.
    Right. My mistake -- removed that bit from the post.

    Tonight amidst the mountaintops
    And endless starless night
    Singing how the wind was lost
    Before an earthly flight

  • CitiniaCitinia Member Posts: 3 Inept
     Hello again. I really wasn't going to post again, but it seems my post didn't sink into some people's heads. So first, I'll point over to my post really fast. https://forums.lusternia.com/discussion/comment/204348/#Comment_204348

    However most notably I just have to state the obvious here really fast -Rancoura, how did you go from this
    Rancoura said:

    If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.


    to this

    Rancoura said:

    If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did. 


    You just ran circles around yourself and didn't realize it. You've negated your argument while attempting to make an argument. How ANGRY would you and others have been if they said no one was winning, after all that effort? (Answer: Significantly more than anyone is now)

    Moving on:

    These are the things that people are doing. This is why it is so toxic. Everyone is taking this personally, and can't even formulate a coherent thought, much less present a meaningful argument.

    All anyone can do is bash the administration, and tell them how stupid and inconsiderate they are.

    (If you're not doing this, then I'm not talking to you. - It pains me that I know I have to put this bit in here. If you still think I'm talking about you, then I probably am.)

    So since people seem to have missed it...

    STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
    STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
    STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
    STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS
    STOP BEING KARENS AND RICHARDS

    Most of us have had to deal with enough in our professional lives for years, and would rather help spare the Lusternia administration from it as much as possible. They deal with enough bitching and complaining about how they handle affairs regularly, without having to listen to most of this disparaging dribble.

    p.s. Silvanus, nice post.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 641 Expert
    Rancoura said:

    Game-caused issues have not been absent in past Ascensions, be them lag, skill balances, etc. So where are those second TA's? How is this fair to any of the others who have "come close" to winning in the past, but didn't, for whatever reason?

    I agree and will humbly accept my Ascension as well after 2018's path bug.
  • RancouraRancoura the Last Nightwreathed Queen CanadaMember Posts: 1,504 Transcendent
    edited July 16
    Citinia said:

    However most notably I just have to state the obvious here really fast -Rancoura, how did you go from this
    Rancoura said:

    If it's not certain who the winner would have been without the lag, declare none instead of handing out participation prizes which were not offered in the past.


    to this

    Rancoura said:

    If it were known that a TA in both groups was going to be raised, I daresay many contributors in either group wouldn't have invested so much time, effort and work into preparing themselves and their allies for the competition, as the outcome might not have mattered so much. However, given it was not known, they did. 


    You just ran circles around yourself and didn't realize it. You've negated your argument while attempting to make an argument. How ANGRY would you and others have been if they said no one was winning, after all that effort? (Answer: Significantly more than anyone is now)


    Perhaps you skimmed over the part where I also wrote:

    I still do not understand this decision or how it's being perceived as fair to all

    which, in essence, means that I do not believe the current decision is fair to all. Nullifying the event, since the lag affected all parties and according to some is the sole reason why the more likely victor didn't achieve victory in the end and apparently gave Celest/Glomdoring/Hallifax some kind of advantage, could be considered fair.

    I don't want to see Parhelion stripped of Ascendancy. I don't want Ixion to not have TA if there is hard proof that he would have won it if the game servers behaved (which there isn't). What I do want is this toting around of "fair decisions" to have some semblance of truth to their adjective.

    Hopefully that clears things up for you, but regardless, paint me in whichever colours you like in your mind's eye; you're certainly entitled to do so. <3 

    Tonight amidst the mountaintops
    And endless starless night
    Singing how the wind was lost
    Before an earthly flight

  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 110 Adept
    edited July 16
    Rancoura said:

    I don't want to see Parhelion stripped of Ascendancy. I don't want Ixion to not have TA if there is hard proof that he would have won it if the game servers behaved (which there isn't). What I do want is this toting around of "fair decisions" to have some semblance of truth to their adjective.

    Okay, I'll bring up something that your side pointed to: we were able to handle Creeping (even 3-wyrdenwood Creepings) all right during timequakes and domoths because it wasn't anywhere near as laggy, and we could react in time (well, those of us not running on 500ms ping, anyway...). We can therefore assume that, had the lag not been there, we should have been able to react in time to any and all Wyrdewnood Creeping drops (we didn't, because of the lag).

    edit; as an aside, the fact that I am also a TK that uses Super channel also contributed to my less-than-stellar reaction time to Creeping (Super is a 6s eqbal loss).
    It's pronounced "Maggy'!

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  • XenthosXenthos Shadow Lord Member Posts: 6,935 Transcendent
    Our counter to that was intended to be Bonecrusher Groundslam.
    image
  • UzrielUzriel Member Posts: 151 Gifted
    Mboagn said:
    Rancoura said:

    I don't want to see Parhelion stripped of Ascendancy. I don't want Ixion to not have TA if there is hard proof that he would have won it if the game servers behaved (which there isn't). What I do want is this toting around of "fair decisions" to have some semblance of truth to their adjective.

    Okay, I'll bring up something that your side pointed to: we were able to handle Creeping (even 3-wyrdenwood Creepings) all right during timequakes and domoths because it wasn't anywhere near as laggy, and we could react in time (well, those of us not running on 500ms ping, anyway...). We can therefore assume that, had the lag not been there, we should have been able to react in time to any and all Wyrdewnood Creeping drops (we didn't, because of the lag).

    edit; as an aside, the fact that I am also a TK that uses Super channel also contributed to my less-than-stellar reaction time to Creeping (Super is a 6s eqbal loss).
    Myself losing the staff after we stripped it from Choros wouldn't have necessarily meant a win, I don't think anybody can say 100% if the lag wasn't there Ixion would have won either. But it certainly would have changed the final stages and could have given a win. The admin's decision here is acknowledging that fact that we can't say with certainty who would have won between Choros and Ixion - the two competing sealholders.

    I'm sorry to see Ciaran or any other player leaving the game over this decision.

    I think its one that was necessary and that this thread could use a healthy dose less toxicity and gaslighting.
  • MalariousMalarious Member Posts: 641 Expert
    Xenthos said:
    Our counter to that was intended to be Bonecrusher Groundslam.
    Which is why Caleb had a higher target prio, as he was the bonecrusher. 

    This was not only included in our planning, we noted it as a reason shielding was not a real counter to creeping. 1 person can counter 30.
  • MboagnMboagn Member Posts: 110 Adept
    I think there were some people who also bought wondercrystals for wonderbelt 15? As a Hail Mary  :D
    It's pronounced "Maggy'!

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