These hindsight arguments don't really hold a lot of weight for me. For any of these 'If I had known' arguments being presented, the simple fact is had we known this would occur, we would have enacted changes to ensure it didn't and all of you would be back to where you were. The fact is none of us knew so it is irrelevant to talk about hindsight in that fashion. Again, that's not any player's fault, that's our fault.
On top of that - I think it is a fallacy to do things just because that is how it was done in the past. In my line of work (outside Lusternia), I don't want to do something because that is how it has always been done, I want to do something because it is the best way to do it. Changing and adapting as you learn and improve is vital and it's the only way for Lusternia to progress. That doesn't mean we're going to retroactively go back and change things that happened in previous Ascensions or events (so don't ask). Those decisions were made and the consequences dealt with, we're moving forward and trying to learn from the past.
Those two points are why I don't think it really makes sense to have additional Ascendants beyond Parhelion and Ixion. Choices were made about who to award seals to and who to support. Additionally, a big factor in this decision was how close the score was. We already stated that we don't know if we'd have done the same thing had Ixion won when Choros was at 700ish points.
As far as fair decision - I think both sides are getting a fair deal. Glom/Celest/Halli got the TA they fought for in Parhelion, Mag/Gaudi/Seren get the TA they fought for in Ixion.
We keep seeing terms being thrown out like 'moving forward in full awareness that it's hurting one competitive group.' I've already said this multiple times, -any- decision we made was hurting one competitive group. These sayings keep getting bandied around as if there was a solution that nobody would be upset by. We know that players were upset, and they were going to be upset no matter which we way we went. So we decided to do what we felt was best.
As far as fair decision - I think both sides are getting a fair deal. Glom/Celest/Halli got the TA they fought for in Parhelion, Mag/Gaudi/Seren get the TA they fought for in Ixion.
I think it's pretty clear that this is not really felt as a fair deal. Glom/Celest/Halli got the TA they won with. If you had decided to do nothing at all, we would still have won. Mag/Gaudi/Seren are getting a bonus TA because you feel it was the right thing to do. And if we're doing extra / bonus TAs... why not make another? Then it's not a "super special extra win." You can have a uniting event to bring the playerbase together. Raise two, one from each side, for which everyone will be able to attend and - despite possible disgruntlement about the other side's nominee - support their own.
This also undermines the whole "Pity Ascendant/False Ascendant" narrative because it would need to be applied equally to both. You're already stating that you're doing things differently... so why not take it a step further and do something that actually feels like it addresses and tries to salve the wounds and hurts deliver delivered to both parties?
Let me ask you: Does raising another one hurt Mag/Gaudy/Seren any more than raising Ixion hurts Glom/Celest/Halli?
You want to try to try to move Ascension to a different path that isn't so hyper-competitive. I think you have a chance to start now. I started out my posts asking why there wasn't a decision to try to bring us on board and work together to come up with something all parties could swallow and at least feel something good about- it took me a lot of posts to work through what I was feeling, but I think that crystallizes it. You're not going to undo your call. For better or worse, it is what we've got to work with. But it doesn't have to end there.
No more speeches anymore. No attempts to change anyone's mind anymore. I can't push this hard again knowing the resolution will just be contested by the other side (even if that's our side) because they're unhappy with the results. The process has been undermined to the point that I know I will never again care about the results enough to try.
So your point is that we should make Glom/Celest/Halli happy by giving them two TA's and Mag/Gaudi/Seren are supposed to be happy with one TA? You are asking if giving your side two TA's is hurting them any more than you are hurt by giving them one TA?
I think the answer is yes, it hurts them more - you're getting two TA's and they're only getting one. It puts us back to square one.
Admin: The game wasn't fair so we're calling it a draw so no one loses due to our own errors.
Some players: This is not fair, we want TWO winners on our team that's the thing to do to make us happy since we played to make some guy lose, not to win. Also consider raising someone who didn't compete to win. Maybe a few without seals even.
So your point is that we should make Glom/Celest/Halli happy by giving them two TA's and Mag/Gaudi/Seren are supposed to be happy with one TA? You are asking if giving your side two TA's is hurting them any more than giving them one TA?
I think the answer is yes, it hurts them more - you're getting two TA's and they're only getting one. It puts us back to square one.
So you are explicitly stating that raising one TA cancels out the raising of another TA, and in that respect it's a zero sum game.
By that logic then, raising Ixion cancels out raising Choros.
Yet, at the same time you're telling us that raising Ixion does not cancel out the raising of Choros?
Only one of these can be true at a time- if raising someone alongside Ixion cancels out raising Ixion, then raising Ixion on his own cancels out raising Choros.
I'm super confused by what you're trying to play here.
Glom/Celest/Halli get Parhelion - the TA they fought for. Mag/Gaudi/Seren get Ixion - the TA they fought for
They both have one TA, the TA they fought for. They are both on equal footing. Raising Ixion doesn't cancel out Parhelion. If we were to raise another ascendant for Glom/Celest/Halli - it wouldn't cancel out Ixion - it would be in addition to Parhelion.
Raising another TA doesn't cancel out either of them - it only adds to the situation. So then you would have two TA's and they would have one TA. There isn't any cancelling out here, there isn't any kind of weird logic you're trying to apply here - your side would simply have two to their one, which yes, I think that would hurt them more.
Just to be clear - I think you having two TA's Hurts Mag/Gaudi/Seren more than them getting one TA hurts Glom/Celest/Halli.
I'm not understanding your logic when you are trying to tell me that two is equal to one.
Glomdoring/Celest/Hallifax got the TA they won with.
Mag/Gaudi/Seren
get +1 TA that would not exist in the game at all. A bonus, extra,
additional one. Giving each side an extra bonus one is, itself,
equivalence. The way I'm approaching it is that Choros won either way.
This decision was not about whether or not to take it away from Choros:
it was about whether or not to increase the TAs in the game by awarding
it to those other than the actual winner of the event.
I think I'll ask one last question here: You
asked us to trust you. You asked us to believe that you're looking out
for all of us. You have also stated that you knew how we would react
to the decision. Is there ANY room in your mind, whatsoever, for
attempting to address that? Because from our standpoint, the full math
is:
1) The lag was a mess, but it affected everyone equally.
2) One side won, one side lost.
3)
A decision was made to make the losing side also be the winning side
(again, at this point, we understand that this decision isn't changing).
4) Nothing was done for the winning side at all to account for point 3, except for stating "trust us" and "we knew you'd be upset but we thought it was the right thing to do."
Are we just barking up the wrong tree here? Is this really the end, the final decision, there's nothing else that you are willing to do whatsoever? Because I think we've all been very open with stating how we feel. We've laid everything we have out for you. It's not speculation any more- you know exactly how it's come across to us because we've all told you.
If the answer is really "Nah, this is it," then... well, I guess it'd be good to know. We can all give up trying to let you know how we feel / what we think.
Ixion and his team did not win. They came close, but they did not win. Lag was present on both sides. You are now handing what is arguably the greatest prize and honour that can be won in this game to someone who did not win the event for which it is given. This would have been just as unfair if circumstances were reversed and Choros had gotten within minutes of winning but Ixion managed to get the staff and hold on to it until the end, only to have Choros be handed the prize as well, but we will never know if that would have happened at this point.
It escapes me why the skewed fairness of this is so difficult to understand. Why is the administrative team okay with setting this kind of precedent? Why is it so difficult to acknowledge how this looks?
Tonight amidst the mountaintops And endless starless night Singing how the wind was lost Before an earthly flight
They already acknowledged that they knew it was going to ruffle feathers any which way. From their assessment, this was the best solution out of a basket of bad solutions.
"We keep seeing terms being thrown out like 'moving forward in full awareness that it's hurting one competitive group.' I've already said this multiple times, -any- decision we made was hurting one competitive group." Instead of leaving it as it was with the losing competitive group hurting they decided to hurt the winning group? How does that make sense in the slightest? Rancoura's and Xenthos's comments are logical.
"As far as fair decision - I think both sides are getting a fair deal.
Glom/Celest/Halli got the TA they fought for in Parhelion,
Mag/Gaudi/Seren get the TA they fought for in Ixion." This argument is flawed, it should be 'As far as fair decision - I think both sides are getting a fair deal.
Glom/Celest/Halli got the TA they won through the games rules of Ascension in Parhelion,
Mag/Gaudi/Seren get the TA they fought for, albeit lost, in Ixion."
They already acknowledged that they knew it was
going to ruffle feathers any which way. From their assessment, this was
the best solution out of a basket of bad solutions.
Why is stopping here the best solution? Why is acknowledging the winning side's win in any
capacity unreasonable? As of this point, the winning side and the
losing side are entirely equivalent. Something was done outside the
realm of the normal for one side- and not for the other. There is
nothing acknowledging that one side won and one side lost- both have
"won", now.
I'll circle back to:
"Are we just barking up the wrong tree here? Is this really the
end, the final decision, there's nothing else that you are willing to do
whatsoever? Because I think we've all been very open with stating how
we feel. We've laid everything we have out for you. It's not
speculation any more- you know exactly how it's come across to us
because we've all told you. If the answer is really "Nah, this
is it," then... well, I guess it'd be good to know. We can all give up
trying to let you know how we feel / what we think."
Because that's what I need an answer to at this point.
So your point is that we should make Glom/Celest/Halli happy by giving them two TA's and Mag/Gaudi/Seren are supposed to be happy with one TA?
I think the central confusion is with your language here. You only gave one side TA, the other side (feels) they earned their TA. Give vs earn. Gave one side TA, so give the other side TA as well. The earned-TA notwithstanding. Etc.
I think people who are arguing that is a special prize are way off base. Ixion will forever be marked as the TA*, and he cant even remove that mark going forward. Always felt bad about Dei and the crap she got for hers, gonna feel bad about Ixion too. Riiiiiip.
I think people who are arguing that is a special prize are way off base. Ixion will forever be marked as the TA*, and he cant even remove that mark going forward. Always felt bad about Dei and the crap she got for hers, gonna feel bad about Ixion too. Riiiiiip.
Agreed. So despite raising Ixion as a TA, the Equinox side will still forever have the true True Ascendant (Parhelion). It's still a win.
You are now asking me to answer the question 'what is X+ 5?' and I'm replying 10 and you're trying to tell me that it's 15.
We're operating from different bases and we're never going to agree unless we're at the same starting point.
The game lagged, yes and it's all but certain it had an effect on the end. It's been stated by both sides that it was coming down more to luck than skill.
Parhelion and Glom/Celest/Halli ended up the first to 3600, but we don't know if that was because of lag or if it was because they earned it. We also don't know if Mag/Gaudi/Seren lost because of lag or because they were outplayed. It's up in the air. Nobody knows (and we'll never know).
This lag wasn't either sides fault, it was our fault. We should have anticipated it, maybe tried tests. I don't know, the bottom line is we failed and everybody suffered for it. We don't view it as one side won and one side lost - we view it as everyone lost.
So when we consider our decisions on what to do to make it the most fair for both parties, it comes down to really two options - we either remove Parhelion as TA (and neither side gets one) or we raise Ixion (and both sides get one). We decided to not remove Parhelion and instead of raise Ixion. No bonus, no extra, just a TA for both sides.
This wasn't a 'let's reward one side' situation and you keep trying to construe it as that. This was a 'what is the fairest outcome for all sides.' situation. The decision we arrived at is this - Glom/Celest/Halli get to have the TA that they fought for, Mag/Gaudi/Seren get the TA that they fought for. They both get the goal they were trying to accomplish.
It's just not going to fly to me as a 'fair deal' to give one side two TA's because our initial decision was intended to make it fair for both sides by giving both sides one TA. Having two TA's to one TA puts us in the same situation as having one TA to zero TA's. Each side getting one TA is a pretty fair and equal solution.
I won't say that there isn't anything else we're willing to do, but I haven't really seen any solution that comes across to me as more fair -for everyone- presented here.
I won't say that there isn't anything else we're willing to do, but I haven't really seen any solution that comes across to me as more fair -for everyone- presented here.
So what kind of thing could be fair -for everyone-? If, as you say, we're starting from a different base, then clearly our ideas are going to take a much different track than yours. We can think on it, but I also think that it's something that would be worth your end thinking about as well. What are you even willing to consider?
@Orael said Parhelion and Glom/Celest/Halli ended up the first to 3600, but we don't know if that was because of lag or if it was because they earned it
I think that this is the part that is making so many in Glom/Celest/Halli angry and dejected. People feel like they put in the work and won. People feel like they earned it. It's very disheartening for the admin to actually come out and say, "No, we don't know that you earned it" and modify the outcome of ascension as a result. This is, in fact, what people are unhappy about.
It was a win, by the rules of ascension. Would people have preferred a lag-free win? Sure. But it's not great when the administration comes out and says, "Hey, you won by the rules but that's not enough for us to think you actually earned it."
Edit: Ixion's ascension feels pretty set in stone to me at this point from what the admin are saying, but I encourage admin to take into account the feelings I described above. It's possible to give Ixion and people who support him the benefits that would make them happier, while respecting the feelings of the players who won by the rules as they were laid out ahead of time, and who feel like that should be acknowledged.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
So when we consider our decisions on what to do to make it the most fair for both parties, it comes down to really two options - we either remove Parhelion as TA (and neither side gets one) or we raise Ixion (and both sides get one). We decided to not remove Parhelion and instead of raise Ixion. No bonus, no extra, just a TA for both sides.
I won't say that there isn't anything else we're willing to do, but I haven't really seen any solution that comes across to me as more fair -for everyone- presented here.
So, for who's goal was to stop Ixion, removing Parhelion as a TA would be the acceptable outcome. For Celest (who's major RP is stop the taint by any costs) this fits in line with them. For Hallifax, one of the major reasons for leaving the IHC is because of Magnagora and Ixion, this fits in line with a lot of those that agree with this move.
Other accepted outcomes?
Descend Parhelion and say no TA this year (as talked about above)
If you want to have two ascendants, give Ixion free VA. This is largely the same, but doesn't have the same special RP honor that comes with being a TA.
You're right, Glom/Celest/Halli worked really hard and competed well and ended up the first side to 3600. You did win, and as a result you have Parhelion as your TA.
I'm sorry about my poor choice of words there. It wasn't the way I meant to say things so I'm sorry if it comes across that way.
What you're asking us to do is say that Mag/Gaudi/Seren deserved to lose though. That the hard work they put just wasn't enough, that they needed to work harder and compete harder. That they just need to 'get good' and had they done that, they would have won instead.
I've made the mistake of telling people to get good before and it doesn't go anywhere positive. It has a pretty much universally negative effect. Many of you know this.
The reality is that I can't tell Mag/Gaudi/Seren that they deserved to lose. The lag that was faced makes that impossible for me (or anyone) to determine. That's why we're trying to make things right by having Ixion as a TA as well.
If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).
Goddamn. Every time another one of these posts comes up, my heart bleeds for Choros.
Choros if you're still by any chance seeing this happen i am really really sorry and just want to give you a hug. You're a Lusternian institution and the way you've held your head high during all this.....damn. People are the worst. Not everyone treats people like this, i swear.
If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).
I mean, at this point most of my ideas are RP ideas.
Given that this is the year of the timequake and alternate timelines, perhaps the RP justification can be that Ixion was somehow taken over by an alternate-timeline version of himself that did win the staff. That would allow him to become TA, while still distinguishing between that alternate timeline and the "prime" one in which Choros got to 3600 first.
Edit: free TA mechanics without the True Ascendant RP tag/namechange would make most of Shadowlight ok with it, I suspect, but I don't know how IHC would feel about it.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).
I mean, at this point most of my ideas are RP ideas.
Given that this is the year of the timequake and alternate timelines, perhaps the RP justification can be that Ixion was somehow taken over by an alternate-timeline version of himself that did win the staff. That would allow him to become TA, while still distinguishing between that alternate timeline and the "prime" one in which Choros got to 3600 first.
Just to be clear here- we were never taking away that Parhelion got to 3600 first. I don't know exactly what the event entails, that's not in my purview and I've been too busy responding here to be involved on that side, but this has never ever been about favoring Ixion more than Parhelion or erasing that he got to 3600 first. This has always been about each side getting a TA. Everything we're talking about here is pretty much strictly OOC and not IC.
I will note that other players have displayed concern that Ixion getting a special event makes it 'more special' than Parhelion's win though.
If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).
This solution is fair, yes, but I don't think it will do anything except make both sides equally unhappy about the outcome. Fair doesn't always mean best. And, when it comes to a competition, fair is entirely subjective anyways. That's why competitions have rules in place to define the parameters, and what to do if things go wrong (for example, rain delays), instead of making it up on the spot.
Some off-the-top-of-my-head ideas:
- Making Ixion a VA-like-Ascendant would be an option to say that it's different- basically, a TA without any free Domoth powers / domoth affiliation (but not org-locked). Would he be happy with that though? Possibly not.
- Giving Glom/Halli/Celest a minor Demigod power associated with some kind of combination / merging of Justice and Time? You only have access to it if part of those orgs, part of the nature of Choros' ascendance. Basically, this solution makes his winning more meaningful to us, while not diminishing Ixion's.
I think everyone can agree that, mechanically speaking, TA is no longer as important as it once was given the endgame changes. Therefore, any quibbling that people have at this point is mostly about the sense of achievement, and the RP ramifications of "victory" vs "defeat". I suspect that is why people have proposed having "no TAs" this year, as opposed to some inherent vendetta against Choros. (To be clear, I don't want to descend Parhelion, but I don't think that the people who suggest it are doing so out of spite, either.)
I'd like to hear what other people have to say about this. Specifically, I'd like to hear IHC members talk about the minimum that would make them feel better, and Shadowlight members talk about what things do or don't make their victory feel erased. I think we could all do with less moral accusations and more brainstorming.
(clan): Falmiis says, "Aramelise, verb, 1. adorn with many flowers."
I mean if we're just throwing ideas at the wall hoping something sticks, roll a Soulless to eat Avechna. Require the full 9 Sealbearers to be raised to be his stand in for the time being. Every body wins because no one loses. Remove the Staff event entirely and we all go home after Beauty/War gets announced every year. (See how silly that sounds out loud?)
If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).
This solution is fair, yes, but I don't think it will do anything except make both sides equally unhappy about the outcome. Fair doesn't always mean best. And, when it comes to a competition, fair is entirely subjective anyways. That's why competitions have rules in place to define the parameters, and what to do if things go wrong (for example, rain delays), instead of making it up on the spot.
Some off-the-top-of-my-head ideas:
- Making Ixion a VA-like-Ascendant would be an option to say that it's different- basically, a TA without any free Domoth powers / domoth affiliation (but not org-locked). Would he be happy with that though? Possibly not.
- Giving Glom/Halli/Celest a minor Demigod power associated with some kind of combination / merging of Justice and Time? You only have access to it if part of those orgs, part of the nature of Choros' ascendance. Basically, this solution makes his winning more meaningful to us, while not diminishing Ixion's.
I'm sorry, but I don't agree that these don't diminish the other side. We already decided that (and we've already mentioned this) that we don't think anything less than making Ixion a TA would be acceptable to Mag/Gaudi/Seren, mechanically speaking. The RP role it takes is again out of my wheelhouse though.
Comments
I am home now, I'll work on a response but it'll be a bit.
On top of that - I think it is a fallacy to do things just because that is how it was done in the past. In my line of work (outside Lusternia), I don't want to do something because that is how it has always been done, I want to do something because it is the best way to do it. Changing and adapting as you learn and improve is vital and it's the only way for Lusternia to progress. That doesn't mean we're going to retroactively go back and change things that happened in previous Ascensions or events (so don't ask). Those decisions were made and the consequences dealt with, we're moving forward and trying to learn from the past.
Those two points are why I don't think it really makes sense to have additional Ascendants beyond Parhelion and Ixion. Choices were made about who to award seals to and who to support. Additionally, a big factor in this decision was how close the score was. We already stated that we don't know if we'd have done the same thing had Ixion won when Choros was at 700ish points.
As far as fair decision - I think both sides are getting a fair deal. Glom/Celest/Halli got the TA they fought for in Parhelion, Mag/Gaudi/Seren get the TA they fought for in Ixion.
We keep seeing terms being thrown out like 'moving forward in full awareness that it's hurting one competitive group.' I've already said this multiple times, -any- decision we made was hurting one competitive group. These sayings keep getting bandied around as if there was a solution that nobody would be upset by. We know that players were upset, and they were going to be upset no matter which we way we went. So we decided to do what we felt was best.
No more speeches anymore. No attempts to change anyone's mind anymore. I can't push this hard again knowing the resolution will just be contested by the other side (even if that's our side) because they're unhappy with the results. The process has been undermined to the point that I know I will never again care about the results enough to try.
I wish you the best.
I think the answer is yes, it hurts them more - you're getting two TA's and they're only getting one. It puts us back to square one.
With one TA each, you're on equal footing.
Some players: This is not fair, we want TWO winners on our team that's the thing to do to make us happy since we played to make some guy lose, not to win. Also consider raising someone who didn't compete to win. Maybe a few without seals even.
Other players: Wtf?
Glom/Celest/Halli get Parhelion - the TA they fought for.
Mag/Gaudi/Seren get Ixion - the TA they fought for
They both have one TA, the TA they fought for. They are both on equal footing. Raising Ixion doesn't cancel out Parhelion. If we were to raise another ascendant for Glom/Celest/Halli - it wouldn't cancel out Ixion - it would be in addition to Parhelion.
Raising another TA doesn't cancel out either of them - it only adds to the situation. So then you would have two TA's and they would have one TA. There isn't any cancelling out here, there isn't any kind of weird logic you're trying to apply here - your side would simply have two to their one, which yes, I think that would hurt them more.
Just to be clear - I think you having two TA's Hurts Mag/Gaudi/Seren more than them getting one TA hurts Glom/Celest/Halli.
I'm not understanding your logic when you are trying to tell me that two is equal to one.
You asked us to trust you. You asked us to believe that you're looking out for all of us. You have also stated that you knew how we would react to the decision. Is there ANY room in your mind, whatsoever, for attempting to address that? Because from our standpoint, the full math is:
Ixion and his team did not win. They came close, but they did not win. Lag was present on both sides. You are now handing what is arguably the greatest prize and honour that can be won in this game to someone who did not win the event for which it is given. This would have been just as unfair if circumstances were reversed and Choros had gotten within minutes of winning but Ixion managed to get the staff and hold on to it until the end, only to have Choros be handed the prize as well, but we will never know if that would have happened at this point.
It escapes me why the skewed fairness of this is so difficult to understand. Why is the administrative team okay with setting this kind of precedent? Why is it so difficult to acknowledge how this looks?
Tonight amidst the mountaintops
And endless starless night
Singing how the wind was lost
Before an earthly flight
Explorer (80%), Achiever (53%), Socializer (53%), Killer (13%)
Bartle Taxonomy
(test yourself)
Why is stopping here the best solution? Why is acknowledging the winning side's win in any capacity unreasonable? As of this point, the winning side and the losing side are entirely equivalent. Something was done outside the realm of the normal for one side- and not for the other. There is nothing acknowledging that one side won and one side lost- both have "won", now.
If the answer is really "Nah, this is it," then... well, I guess it'd be good to know. We can all give up trying to let you know how we feel / what we think."
I think people who are arguing that is a special prize are way off base. Ixion will forever be marked as the TA*, and he cant even remove that mark going forward. Always felt bad about Dei and the crap she got for hers, gonna feel bad about Ixion too. Riiiiiip.
Explorer (80%), Achiever (53%), Socializer (53%), Killer (13%)
Bartle Taxonomy
(test yourself)
I'm operating in this discussion as if X = 5.
You are operating as if X = 10.
You are now asking me to answer the question 'what is X+ 5?' and I'm replying 10 and you're trying to tell me that it's 15.
We're operating from different bases and we're never going to agree unless we're at the same starting point.
The game lagged, yes and it's all but certain it had an effect on the end. It's been stated by both sides that it was coming down more to luck than skill.
Parhelion and Glom/Celest/Halli ended up the first to 3600, but we don't know if that was because of lag or if it was because they earned it. We also don't know if Mag/Gaudi/Seren lost because of lag or because they were outplayed. It's up in the air. Nobody knows (and we'll never know).
This lag wasn't either sides fault, it was our fault. We should have anticipated it, maybe tried tests. I don't know, the bottom line is we failed and everybody suffered for it. We don't view it as one side won and one side lost - we view it as everyone lost.
So when we consider our decisions on what to do to make it the most fair for both parties, it comes down to really two options - we either remove Parhelion as TA (and neither side gets one) or we raise Ixion (and both sides get one). We decided to not remove Parhelion and instead of raise Ixion. No bonus, no extra, just a TA for both sides.
This wasn't a 'let's reward one side' situation and you keep trying to construe it as that. This was a 'what is the fairest outcome for all sides.' situation. The decision we arrived at is this - Glom/Celest/Halli get to have the TA that they fought for, Mag/Gaudi/Seren get the TA that they fought for. They both get the goal they were trying to accomplish.
It's just not going to fly to me as a 'fair deal' to give one side two TA's because our initial decision was intended to make it fair for both sides by giving both sides one TA. Having two TA's to one TA puts us in the same situation as having one TA to zero TA's. Each side getting one TA is a pretty fair and equal solution.
I won't say that there isn't anything else we're willing to do, but I haven't really seen any solution that comes across to me as more fair -for everyone- presented here.
So what kind of thing could be fair -for everyone-? If, as you say, we're starting from a different base, then clearly our ideas are going to take a much different track than yours. We can think on it, but I also think that it's something that would be worth your end thinking about as well. What are you even willing to consider?
Parhelion and Glom/Celest/Halli ended up the first to 3600, but we don't know if that was because of lag or if it was because they earned it
I think that this is the part that is making so many in Glom/Celest/Halli angry and dejected. People feel like they put in the work and won. People feel like they earned it. It's very disheartening for the admin to actually come out and say, "No, we don't know that you earned it" and modify the outcome of ascension as a result. This is, in fact, what people are unhappy about.
It was a win, by the rules of ascension. Would people have preferred a lag-free win? Sure. But it's not great when the administration comes out and says, "Hey, you won by the rules but that's not enough for us to think you actually earned it."
Edit: Ixion's ascension feels pretty set in stone to me at this point from what the admin are saying, but I encourage admin to take into account the feelings I described above. It's possible to give Ixion and people who support him the benefits that would make them happier, while respecting the feelings of the players who won by the rules as they were laid out ahead of time, and who feel like that should be acknowledged.
I'm sorry about my poor choice of words there. It wasn't the way I meant to say things so I'm sorry if it comes across that way.
What you're asking us to do is say that Mag/Gaudi/Seren deserved to lose though. That the hard work they put just wasn't enough, that they needed to work harder and compete harder. That they just need to 'get good' and had they done that, they would have won instead.
I've made the mistake of telling people to get good before and it doesn't go anywhere positive. It has a pretty much universally negative effect. Many of you know this.
The reality is that I can't tell Mag/Gaudi/Seren that they deserved to lose. The lag that was faced makes that impossible for me (or anyone) to determine. That's why we're trying to make things right by having Ixion as a TA as well.
If you have a solution that makes both sides happy with the outcome, I'm all ears. I'm willing to listen to it and discuss it with Aonia and the other admin. Nobody's presented one though (I suppose besides descending Parhelion, but doesn't that then say that the 'winning' side didn't deserve to win?).
Choros if you're still by any chance seeing this happen i am really really sorry and just want to give you a hug. You're a Lusternian institution and the way you've held your head high during all this.....damn. People are the worst. Not everyone treats people like this, i swear.
Explorer (80%), Achiever (53%), Socializer (53%), Killer (13%)
Bartle Taxonomy
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Given that this is the year of the timequake and alternate timelines, perhaps the RP justification can be that Ixion was somehow taken over by an alternate-timeline version of himself that did win the staff. That would allow him to become TA, while still distinguishing between that alternate timeline and the "prime" one in which Choros got to 3600 first.
Edit: free TA mechanics without the True Ascendant RP tag/namechange would make most of Shadowlight ok with it, I suspect, but I don't know how IHC would feel about it.
Sapphira +1
Maggy +1
Choros, you're loved. Unfortunately hateful people are just... really really loud.
I will note that other players have displayed concern that Ixion getting a special event makes it 'more special' than Parhelion's win though.
I'd like to hear what other people have to say about this. Specifically, I'd like to hear IHC members talk about the minimum that would make them feel better, and Shadowlight members talk about what things do or don't make their victory feel erased. I think we could all do with less moral accusations and more brainstorming.