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What do you see as more important right now: Economy Fix or Defense Overhaul?

AyisdraAyisdra
in Q&A
During the live stream, Orael and Aonia revealed the next project after Endzone is going to be the Economy fix. I think this is the wrong decision and believe the admin should finally finish the Defense Overhaul first.
The common argument is that 'no one will see the work done' and 'it is largely back end things that doesn't change how you do things' along with how long it will take. I disagree with this idea highly and believe having defenses overhauled and sending gmcp messages completely do nothing but good things. By not having this, I think it hurts new players, making it harder to create defensive systems than would be without. It is a good thing to be lowering the barrier of entry and letting people get involved much easier.
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Comments

  • SynlSynl
    Making AC entirely functional out of the box (defense upkeep, stancing/parrying) would be helpful to new player retention and involvement more than any economy changes, which I feel is mostly for the sake of the people who are already well-invested? 

    I haven't seen the stream, so not sure what economy fix entails.
  • VexacionVexacion
    Defence upkeep and stancing/parrying would be nice, sure. But right now, the state of the economy is bad. I know there are some people who have hoarded millions of gold and can earn millions of gold a day and can sell things for super cheap who disagree that the economy is bad -- this is likely because those people don't remember what it's like to be a newbie or midbie, struggling to earn gold.

    Is earning gold hard? Not especially, if you spend your entire day doing it, but who wants to do that?

    Further, there are so many things you just cannot find enough of in the Aetherplex, or in city shops. City shops? Not even that useful anymore. You can't earn a profit in those, because of people who undercut so badly. People who can aethertrade (i.e., have Tailoring, Jewellery or Cooking, the power to do it, the commodities to do it, the time to do it, etc) earn extra gold that way, which further inflates the gold issue and makes some items grossly undervalued that should be more and others exorbitantly valuable that should be less by limiting the tradeskills people have (unless they're lucky and choose to have multiple ones; as a demigod who also values combat powers, I can't take SecondTradeskill, so I have to pick between aethertrading and a useful tradeskill).

    We've had this argument before in the Discord, and the response was usually "Well, just do X." but as a newbie or midbie, sometimes you cannot 'just do X'. The economy needs to be fixed for non-demigods/non-aethertraders who want to make a profit in their shops to afford things like credits so they can improve themselves.

    AC functions fine right now. The upkeep/stancing/parrying can come later.
  • AyisdraAyisdra
    Vexacion said:
    Defence upkeep and stancing/parrying would be nice, sure. But right now, the state of the economy is bad. I know there are some people who have hoarded millions of gold and can earn millions of gold a day and can sell things for super cheap who disagree that the economy is bad -- this is likely because those people don't remember what it's like to be a newbie or midbie, struggling to earn gold.

    AC functions fine right now. The upkeep/stancing/parrying can come later.
    We have seen a number of newbies complain about defenses and how hard it is to deal with them. I'm not sure about you, but if I was a newbie, I would care more about defenses given how large conflict is marketed as an aspect of the game. I fully expect that someone who has been playing the game for years on end is able to make millions more and faster than a newbie and would not think 'I should be able to earn as fast as them as a midbie'

  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning **
    edited September 2020
    I could be in the minority here, but I haven't fielded a single complaint about defenses in my time. What are the issues with them, exactly?

    Also, the specific issues with the economy are not just "older players make more money". This is and will be an understood truth no matter what comes of overhauling it, because that's just The Way Things Work, and that's fine to an extent. Our economy may not be Aetolia levels of broken (assuming it hasn't been fixed since I've visited last), but it will be if left unaddressed. I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.
    Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."

    -

    With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
  • AyisdraAyisdra
    Eritheyl said:
    I could be in the minority here, but I haven't fielded a single complaint about defenses in my time. What are the issues with them, exactly?
    Because most defenses don't have gmcp message, this makes it really hard for new players to create systems and what not to keep themselves alive. When affs went from affmessages to full gmcp messages, we saw a bit increase in newbies joining conflict because system building became all the much easier and didn't require to relay on someone else or to collect hundreds of lines. We saw a similar increase in players in general when AC became a thing. Defenses should likely do the same thing of lowering this barrier of entry.

     I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.
    There is nothing stopping from this happening now, or from happening years ago, due to being allowed to classflex (and having more than one activate trade). And can be a thing as long as classflexing is a thing.
  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning **
    Not trying to outright discredit you, but I personally feel like this issue isn't as big of one as you're making it seem. But as you agree with the sentiment that the economy is broken, I'm going to stand by my vote.
    Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."

    -

    With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
  • JolantheJolanthe
    Eritheyl said:
    I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.
    This confuses me, since I've seen a number of herbs getting more expensive - to the point where I'm inspired to go and harvest more for myself, but not necessarily to try to accumulate enough to resell.

    Some items just feel too costly to bother with on any degree of scale. Needing enough rawtea to prepare greentea/blacktea/etc. takes a very long time, and they all draw from the same pool. All require 10 rawtea to make a single packet. If any reasonable amount is charged for the raw tea, then the finished teas suddenly become "too expensive". And malts? Forget it. It's impossible to make malts that are cheaper than the current supplies still dwindling from when presents/etc rendered them.

    I think it might help to clarify and look at what is considered broken, and why.

  • SaranSaran
    Ayisdra said:
    Eritheyl said:
    I could be in the minority here, but I haven't fielded a single complaint about defenses in my time. What are the issues with them, exactly?
    Because most defenses don't have gmcp message, this makes it really hard for new players to create systems and what not to keep themselves alive. When affs went from affmessages to full gmcp messages, we saw a bit increase in newbies joining conflict because system building became all the much easier and didn't require to relay on someone else or to collect hundreds of lines. We saw a similar increase in players in general when AC became a thing. Defenses should likely do the same thing of lowering this barrier of entry.

    I'd point out here that, players can code around the concerns with defenses where we can't really code around the issues with the economy.

    I put fifty recipes through a calculator spreadsheet and had one come up that would not cost more to make than the lowest price readily available for the same category in the aetherplex, which with cooking particularly is also competing with people being really nice and just giving away food for free.
    I haven't recently had to buy any food from memory, because by the time I'm hungry again someone has invariably given me free food or there were five people in a room so herofete was used.

    Also, the economy is relevant to newbies, the question of what trades are good comes up for one and it is rather depressing on both sides to explain how such an investment is kinda a waste. 
    Economic activities (including but not just limited to trades) also provide alternative methods for player engagement which can help with retention and depending on the direction it could provide alternate reasons for people who currently don't to stay logged in longer or more regularly which provide more players for newbies to engage with even if the newbies themselves don't personally get invested in the activities.


    Ayisdra said:
     I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.
    There is nothing stopping from this happening now, or from happening years ago, due to being allowed to classflex (and having more than one activate trade). And can be a thing as long as classflexing is a thing.

    Yeah... that it can happen is an issue? That it's been possible for years is why people have been raising it among the issues with the economy for years. These are reasons to prioritise looking at the issue, it's root causes, and look for resolutions to them. 
  • SaranSaran
    Jolanthe said:
    Eritheyl said:
    I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.
    This confuses me, since I've seen a number of herbs getting more expensive - to the point where I'm inspired to go and harvest more for myself, but not necessarily to try to accumulate enough to resell.

    Some items just feel too costly to bother with on any degree of scale. Needing enough rawtea to prepare greentea/blacktea/etc. takes a very long time, and they all draw from the same pool. All require 10 rawtea to make a single packet. If any reasonable amount is charged for the raw tea, then the finished teas suddenly become "too expensive". And malts? Forget it. It's impossible to make malts that are cheaper than the current supplies still dwindling from when presents/etc rendered them.

    I think it might help to clarify and look at what is considered broken, and why.

    For me.

    • Prices being below general crafting costs is bad.
      It creates a barrier for entry, for example, a spatula with trans cooking is still not enough to make things that sell for more than they cost (with some exceptions), and when I was looking at it I would have made many times more money with less effort if I'd just gone influencing rather than crafting and hoping someone would actually buy the stuff and I wouldn't get undercut.

    • Self-sufficiency is problematic.
      Self-sufficiency can be done, it's possible in games like FFXIV or GW2, the difference really is the time investment in gathering and crafting. Gathering all your materials, processing them through steps until you can craft the item you want can take days, in some cases even weeks or months. That time scale encourages trading because it's so much easier and faster to get stuff from other players.
      Because of the way tradeskills and comms work in Lusternia, there's not much difference and as someone who is basically at this point, it can be much easier to do everything yourself. Which is made easier again thanks to skillflexing and the cord/tam arti, before you even look at extra trade slots. This issue is that you've cut out all those other players who there could have been some trading interaction with. Also, linked to that it means there's less reason to trade and can have a flow-on effect of making it harder for people who aren't self-sufficient.

    • Non-decay is a weird thing
      So like, MMOs don't overtly have non-decay, but games like XIV and WoW do have a version of it because new "best gear" is released regularly (afaik, generally more often than decay timers here). And it's kinda the same thing as self-sufficiency, there's entire trades or close to it which are just... irrelevant to me.
      Tailoring and Forging are two big examples, Enchanting I just need someone to refill my cubes (which I can do myself thanks to self-sufficiency).
      All the buffs from cooking (and more) I can get from wondercorn, though there is the benefit of free herofetes by having both that seems to also mean no comms are being consumed by crafting, no gold is changing hands. 
      Also in a state of pretty much everything is non-decay for me (with a decent sprinkling customisation), but again it reduces the consumer base for traders making trading a less worthwhile activity and so on. At least for me, if I ever actually need lessons the trades I've effectively "opted out" of would be the first to be forgotten permanently which also means no more flexing into them if someone needs them.
    It's also complicated because its stuff that's built up over time, some of the more straight-forward resolutions would be to wind things back like no more skillflexing trades and removing extra trade slots but it's taking things away. Adding new stuff has been attempted but in the end there's only so many buffs you can really give out heh.
  • UzrielUzriel
    To be honest I'm not sure what the defense overhaul actually would entail.

    There are some defs that come to mind as being more important to make easy on new players to upkeep than others.

    Sleep tactics aren't really widely used a whole lot at the moment, but insomnia comes to mind especially as a defense that could benefit new players from being added system side or at least to gmcp (if it isn't already, though I don't think it is?)
  • JolantheJolanthe
    Saran said:
    •  At least for me, if I ever actually need lessons the trades I've effectively "opted out" of would be the first to be forgotten permanently which also means no more flexing into them if someone needs them.
    Then that's on you. One of the things I miss most about being in Gaudiguch is having access to Elemental/Cosmic enchantment. I have no need for these and have effectively "opted out", as you say, but enchantment offers a lot of opportunity and potential - a lot more so than tinkering or brewmeister. On the other hand, if I was back in Gaudiguch then I would miss the stuff I could make with Lorecraft - some of those potions were not even available in the plex until I started stocking them and slowly, steadily, competitors arose to undercut me. It was like a baseline had to appear again to get the momentum going at all.

    I learned forging before I bothered to learn any knighthood spec (which was easily put off for several IG years), and I didn't necessarily need to learn forging for myself either. Not everyone's going to do that, but I actually enjoy investing in the game in that capacity.

    I would agree that trade artifacts just seem to raise the barrier for entry, though. It would be fine if prices were more fixed and static, but people tend to use their added production to just drive the price down lower.

    This is further complicated by aethertrading/aethergoods encouraging comms to get gobbled up and commodity prices to keep bumping up as consumption outstrips village production. Food comms used to be a lot cheaper, and crucibles are really the only way to toggle things around to get adequate fruit in many situations. I heave a groan every time I hear about someone else looking for fruit to make more aetherpotions with - I hate aetherpotions so much now. Fruit is needed in the majority of cooking recipes. We don't need more uses for damned fruit, and anyone without crucibles to convert vegetables/etc into fruit is kind of hosed.

  • EritheylEritheyl ** Trigger Warning **
    Jolanthe said:
    Eritheyl said:
    I for one don't want to see herbs selling for 1gp per, or potions selling for less than it costs to make them.
    This confuses me, since I've seen a number of herbs getting more expensive - to the point where I'm inspired to go and harvest

    The herbs bit was just an example from Aetolia's economy woes, not something that's happening here yet - thankfully.

    also I hate forum quotes on mobile, grrrrr
    Crumkane, Lord of Epicurean Delights says, "WAS IT INDEED ON FIRE, ERITHEYL."

    -

    With a deep reverb, Contemptible Sutekh says, "CEASE YOUR INFERNAL ENERGY, ERITHEYL."
  • AyisdraAyisdra
    Saran said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Eritheyl said:
    I could be in the minority here, but I haven't fielded a single complaint about defenses in my time. What are the issues with them, exactly?
    Because most defenses don't have gmcp message, this makes it really hard for new players to create systems and what not to keep themselves alive. When affs went from affmessages to full gmcp messages, we saw a bit increase in newbies joining conflict because system building became all the much easier and didn't require to relay on someone else or to collect hundreds of lines. We saw a similar increase in players in general when AC became a thing. Defenses should likely do the same thing of lowering this barrier of entry.

    I'd point out here that, players can code around the concerns with defenses where we can't really code around the issues with the economy.
     
    Coding around defenses becomes ten times easier when they all have gmcp messages. Players don't have to worry hidden dropping in cases where defenses don't have drop lines. They don't have to worry about gathering lines for their own defenses to build a system for tracking. In theory, if this was finished, there could be game-side defense management (thus lowering the need for external systems even more for newer players), although this wouldn't be part of the defensive overhaul directly and a separate project.
    Uzriel said:
    To be honest I'm not sure what the defense overhaul actually would entail.

    There are some defs that come to mind as being more important to make easy on new players to upkeep than others.

    Sleep tactics aren't really widely used a whole lot at the moment, but insomnia comes to mind especially as a defense that could benefit new players from being added system side or at least to gmcp (if it isn't already, though I don't think it is?)
    Defense overhaul would be basically the same as the affliction overhaul - all defenses would send gmcp message when raised and dropped. Right now, only about 100 defenses do this, most of them newer things, which are largely artifact-level (things like goopcrafting and curios are part of this) defenses.

  • CoralineCoraline
    Jolanthe said: On the other hand, if I was back in Gaudiguch then I would miss the stuff I could make with Lorecraft - some of those potions were not even available in the plex until I started stocking them and slowly, steadily, competitors arose to undercut me. It was like a baseline had to appear again to get the momentum going at all.

    This part got me wondering: what if we had an admin-shop of sorts at the Plex that sold everything at a higher price (but not so high like sugar is now), and this will make player shops try to undercut this shop to make profits. Maybe set the baseline for everything and making sure people get what they need to craft things as well as stop commodities from shooting up to insane prices. Just an idea, don't know how it would work practically.

    As for my opinion about the economy (I voted economy in that poll), it seems like whenever any major economy changes are made, it's always the cooking commodities that suffer. I know it's not intentional, but it still makes me scared when admins announce that they are going to make economy changes (like oh no, are they gonna come for spices next? :P ).
    You are startled as a lemon meringue pie bounces harmlessly off you after being thrown at you by Mysrai.
  • JolantheJolanthe
    Coraline said:
    Jolanthe said: On the other hand, if I was back in Gaudiguch then I would miss the stuff I could make with Lorecraft - some of those potions were not even available in the plex until I started stocking them and slowly, steadily, competitors arose to undercut me. It was like a baseline had to appear again to get the momentum going at all.

    This part got me wondering: what if we had an admin-shop of sorts at the Plex that sold everything at a higher price (but not so high like sugar is now), and this will make player shops try to undercut this shop to make profits. Maybe set the baseline for everything and making sure people get what they need to craft things as well as stop commodities from shooting up to insane prices. Just an idea, don't know how it would work practically.

    As for my opinion about the economy (I voted economy in that poll), it seems like whenever any major economy changes are made, it's always the cooking commodities that suffer. I know it's not intentional, but it still makes me scared when admins announce that they are going to make economy changes (like oh no, are they gonna come for spices next? :P ).
    I don't mind the idea of Trader Bob selling a little of everything now, and just keeping the price appropriately overhead. I think the biggest head scratcher on my Lorecraft adventure has been fire potion - nothing needed to make it was too scarce, nor was it terribly high up in the skill rankings, and there was also huge demand for it. It was really easy to produce en masse and turn good profit over when I could switch back to druidry - I think the bigger issue is not enough druid/wiccan players want to pick it up for a variety of reasons, not the least of which being that it's a pretty boring trade.

    Also, hate to break it to you, but spices have already taken a soft hit. When you proc spices while harvesting herbs with the group/bulk syntax, you still get the same amount as if you were harvesting single herbs. So you can get literally thousands of herbs now and no more than twenty or so spices - it's just not noticeable right at the moment due to the glut of spice currently in game. Might be important to keep in mind with any potential spice-related discussion!

  • SapphiraSapphira
    the spices thing definitely feels like a nerf to herbalism if you go the group route which is so much more convenient i don't want to go back.

    All this talk about gmcp - does your average newbie on nexus even know what that is? Or am I just super noob? I hate right now how hard it is to get commodities for crafting because of aethertraders and every man and his dog jumping on board (as they should, the payout is very good for the effort). Competing in price is very difficult because there are plenty of very rich people who don't care to make profits, or are so kitted out they can undercut and make money anyway. Village comms are very sparse and so there's nothing for it if you're org is out or low on an a comm - this must surely hit newbies harder than people who hoard a glut needlessly.

    i'd love to make tonics, but can never get enough fruit for more than a couple. Could we at least look at the comms going into aethergoop craftables? Why do they need comms? Why not make them just gold+goop as a sink right there? Why not take gold to break, rather than salt/sulfur/sugar, which has driven the price on these to ridiculous levels. Crucibles feel like the ultimate bandaid to a problem that really is barely holding on. Also on that, people who want to aethertrade are limited to only 3 trades, and that is super sad to be telling new people that if they want to make goop, those are their only options, with one in particular being most lucrative but also the most impossible to catch.

    i feel like the economy will have further and longer lasting impact right now than adding defenses to a thing that i (and surely others) don't use or need?
  • KaliKali
    If you're referring to defence-overhaul as just hooking things into the gmcp stuff, I absolutely do not think it is a big priority - it has very little impact on new players or player retention, as most people who are already coding are going to find ways to overcome the inconvenience. If it was something more along the lines of a deffer + def maintenance built into the game, that would be a different discussion.
  • AyisdraAyisdra
    Sapphira said:
    the spices thing definitely feels like a nerf to herbalism if you go the group route which is so much more convenient i don't want to go back.

    All this talk about gmcp - does your average newbie on nexus even know what that is? Or am I just super noob?
    I'm not sure the average newbie is using nexus, or at least stays on nexus. One of the first things newbies often get recommended for them is mudlet and to get mmf for various qol things built within it that are still used.
    Your average newbie might not know what gmcp is on a technical level, but it is what makes ssc work for affs. It is why we don't have to code around aff illusion lines anymore.  I think people really take for granted just how nice gmcp things are just because they don't actually see it physically.
  • MaligornMaligorn Windborne
    Offering some insight, I have a sneaking suspicion that the defense overhaul is something that corporate has been wanting Lusternia to get done for a long time now.

    image
  • SaranSaran
    Jolanthe said:
    Saran said:
    •  At least for me, if I ever actually need lessons the trades I've effectively "opted out" of would be the first to be forgotten permanently which also means no more flexing into them if someone needs them.
    Then that's on you. One of the things I miss most about being in Gaudiguch is having access to Elemental/Cosmic enchantment. I have no need for these and have effectively "opted out", as you say, but enchantment offers a lot of opportunity and potential - a lot more so than tinkering or brewmeister. On the other hand, if I was back in Gaudiguch then I would miss the stuff I could make with Lorecraft - some of those potions were not even available in the plex until I started stocking them and slowly, steadily, competitors arose to undercut me. It was like a baseline had to appear again to get the momentum going at all.

    So not really on me, the options are there and people are just utilising them.

    All my elemental and cosmic enchantments are permanent with regulators and I have a runed cube. So I'm pretty safe with those and I can just charge up my cube by swapping to SS and using that enchantment.
    I have an aethersuit and tattoos from forever ago so I don't need armour.
    I haven't runed shofa or warrior weapons, but for warrior weapons I just flex forging and even then thanks to wonderwand/gnomeweapon/etc weaponry only really becomes an issue if I try to actually do combat things and if it did become an issue i'd likely just rune them and then it wouldn't be one any more.
    For artisan I've got a custom instrument, any room i want furniture in has the super cheap non-decay thing in.
    Jewellry is replaced by magicitem curios and anything I want to keep just gets runed.

    Alchemy is actually kinda the example of a "better" trade, it's a consumables trade and you can't really opt out be cause there's not really an equivalent of non-decay other than liquidrifts. There are some unlimited sip vials out there but afaik they're just auction arts. Same with herbs really.
    Jolanthe said:

    I learned forging before I bothered to learn any knighthood spec (which was easily put off for several IG years), and I didn't necessarily need to learn forging for myself either. Not everyone's going to do that, but I actually enjoy investing in the game in that capacity.

    I would agree that trade artifacts just seem to raise the barrier for entry, though. It would be fine if prices were more fixed and static, but people tend to use their added production to just drive the price down lower.
    So, this one is kinda... everyone is different?

    Some people really get into trades because they like designing, other people expect that their investment in time and lessons should have some kind of return. There are people who really like non-decay and want to be able to minimise how much they need to spend on trades, while there's also concerns that have come up that some items aren't as readily available (likely because trading isn't worth it).

    And yeah, a pricing floor would be good but just to note when I'm comparing cooking prices that's with trans and artis, and its still not enough.


    Jolanthe said:

    This is further complicated by aethertrading/aethergoods encouraging comms to get gobbled up and commodity prices to keep bumping up as consumption outstrips village production. Food comms used to be a lot cheaper, and crucibles are really the only way to toggle things around to get adequate fruit in many situations. I heave a groan every time I hear about someone else looking for fruit to make more aetherpotions with - I hate aetherpotions so much now. Fruit is needed in the majority of cooking recipes. We don't need more uses for damned fruit, and anyone without crucibles to convert vegetables/etc into fruit is kind of hosed.


    This is kinda an example of why a fix/overhaul/review is needed as those were all meant to be quick fixes to the economy from memory.
      
    People weren't using comms (thanks opting out) while huge piles from stuff like manse farms were still around, so we got something to consume large amounts of comms. The comms needed for designs have been changed at least twice, gold pricing around goop and some other stuff was added to try to drain the excess gold in the system and gold auctions have been held for the same purpose. 

    Trades didn't have regular consumables to sell so potential profit was minimised/absent so we got aetherstuff to craft and sell.
    Crucibles were also introduced after aethertrading and the great salt shortage that saw salt being valued close to a credit from memory. 

    Also, to note, a games economy is everything really. It's not just trades, it's how you get money, it's incentives to do certain actions (being able to gain essence to turn into demipowers is realistically part of the economy), and so on.
  • SaranSaran
    Ayisdra said:
    Saran said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Eritheyl said:
    I could be in the minority here, but I haven't fielded a single complaint about defenses in my time. What are the issues with them, exactly?
    Because most defenses don't have gmcp message, this makes it really hard for new players to create systems and what not to keep themselves alive. When affs went from affmessages to full gmcp messages, we saw a bit increase in newbies joining conflict because system building became all the much easier and didn't require to relay on someone else or to collect hundreds of lines. We saw a similar increase in players in general when AC became a thing. Defenses should likely do the same thing of lowering this barrier of entry.

    I'd point out here that, players can code around the concerns with defenses where we can't really code around the issues with the economy.
     
    Coding around defenses becomes ten times easier when they all have gmcp messages. Players don't have to worry hidden dropping in cases where defenses don't have drop lines. They don't have to worry about gathering lines for their own defenses to build a system for tracking. In theory, if this was finished, there could be game-side defense management (thus lowering the need for external systems even more for newer players), although this wouldn't be part of the defensive overhaul directly and a separate project.

    Sure, but that's not the point, the point is even though there's more effort involved it's still possible to code around.

    I'd also point out, as part of your argument for deprioritising the economy (again) you've included the suggestion of a new project. Once the defense overhaul you're asking to be prioritised, the same arguments you're already making would likely be applied to then creating the server-side defense management instead of addressing the economy.

    Which again, things that can be coded around, players could share their solutions and minimize any negative impact on the game in the mean time. The same just isn't realistically possible on a player level for the economy.
  • AyisdraAyisdra
    Saran said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Saran said:
    Ayisdra said:
    Eritheyl said:
    I could be in the minority here, but I haven't fielded a single complaint about defenses in my time. What are the issues with them, exactly?
    Because most defenses don't have gmcp message, this makes it really hard for new players to create systems and what not to keep themselves alive. When affs went from affmessages to full gmcp messages, we saw a bit increase in newbies joining conflict because system building became all the much easier and didn't require to relay on someone else or to collect hundreds of lines. We saw a similar increase in players in general when AC became a thing. Defenses should likely do the same thing of lowering this barrier of entry.

    I'd point out here that, players can code around the concerns with defenses where we can't really code around the issues with the economy.
     
    Coding around defenses becomes ten times easier when they all have gmcp messages. Players don't have to worry hidden dropping in cases where defenses don't have drop lines. They don't have to worry about gathering lines for their own defenses to build a system for tracking. In theory, if this was finished, there could be game-side defense management (thus lowering the need for external systems even more for newer players), although this wouldn't be part of the defensive overhaul directly and a separate project.

    Sure, but that's not the point, the point is even though there's more effort involved it's still possible to code around.

    I'd also point out, as part of your argument for deprioritising the economy (again) you've included the suggestion of a new project. Once the defense overhaul you're asking to be prioritised, the same arguments you're already making would likely be applied to then creating the server-side defense management instead of addressing the economy.

    Which again, things that can be coded around, players could share their solutions and minimize any negative impact on the game in the mean time. The same just isn't realistically possible on a player level for the economy.
    IRE heads, at one point anyway, had a strong anti-coding mindset. You see this in old rules about things like autobashing/influencing being technically banned before but nothing was really done about it. While this belief about a player shouldn't require any sort of automation to play the game probably doesn't hold as strong as it does before, the ideals behind it is something we should shrug off.

    I have no doubt in my mind that the economy is basically going to be a year long project, if not more, if it is to be done right. Compared to the couple of months (a very rough estimate given by Orael at somepoint before) that the defensive overhaul, I think taking on the simpler project of converting defenses first is the better choice.
  • SaranSaran
    Ayisdra said:
    IRE heads, at one point anyway, had a strong anti-coding mindset. You see this in old rules about things like autobashing/influencing being technically banned before but nothing was really done about it. While this belief about a player shouldn't require any sort of automation to play the game probably doesn't hold as strong as it does before, the ideals behind it is something we should shrug off.
    Any anti-coding mindset from "IRE heads" seems kinda irrelevant when suggesting something should be prioritised to help people code things.

    Ayisdra said:

    I have no doubt in my mind that the economy is basically going to be a year long project, if not more, if it is to be done right. Compared to the couple of months (a very rough estimate given by Orael at somepoint before) that the defensive overhaul, I think taking on the simpler project of converting defenses first is the better choice.
    I also wouldn't be surprised at that sort of timeline and the argument you're presenting here is why it has been deprioritised in favour of project after project for years. There will always be some simpler project, some new idea, etc we know this because it keeps happening. Families and guilds immediately come to mind.

    Personally, it's also a kinda shortsighted reason?
    The economy affects everyone, or at least should. When it's really in a good state it's woven into every aspect of the game in some way.

    It could help provide additional incentives for people to participate in guilds, there could be "endgame" loops that are involved in it, demipowers that interact with it and modify things within the system, as I understand it Aet's farming also includes a mechanism that let's you raid and potentially steal/deny comms.

    Because it's been put off so long, what started as an issue around people slowly needing trades less and less is now wrapped up in a bundle of like... extensive non-decay, skillflexing, tradeskill slots, goop crafting, wonder items and other artifacts (including bashing whips, gnomeweapons, aethersuits), aethertrading, crucibles, etc.
    So now, it's a bigger issue with more player investment in the way things are and potentially a lot of pain ahead depending on how things will need to be for the health of the game.

    Time has been spent on the "quick fixes", time would presumably need to be spent working things in to the various projects that were "simpler".
    Releasing the final archetype could conceivably be "simpler", adding Jojobo and Acklebery might be as well. Gotta bite the bullet some time.
  • DrastrathDrastrath
    Here is my opinion: The admin has attempted to fix the economy before (gold throttle, influence dropped better good than bashing, quest gold was buffed). None of these fixed the economy. Velocity of money matters, not just value, which is the amount of times gold would exchange hands. The higher the velocity the more active the economy. This would mean things like having a reason to trade, having an active player base to fulfill all needs of the economy, etc are requirements. This will take major changes to the game and probably a ton of coding to do properly. Big reward for big effort. 

    A defense system would be easy to code in comparison, and it would help anyone that isn't using crown, a propped up version of MMF, or hasn't coded their own system (new players/non-coders). It would be simple to create a command that would put up all available long term ( over * minutes duration) defs. It would also be simple to have ac or a def system keepup/use allheale, insomnia, kafe, scarves, candies, etc. Parry would probably be easier than stancing, but I am sure you could make a decent stander just by the previous ice afflictions you have received/healed. The benefits would be that no one would have to keep up with any line or changes to defs unless they really wanted to. Not-so-big effort for moderate reward. 

    Simple idea for a Deffer. Config prompt of all available defences in which you config on and off. When the command is entered it literally just adds every def command toggled on init an unlimited (stratagem queue). This queue goes hey we are done now. The only hard part would psionics and balance free stuff.

    Overview of thoughts (sports analogy): Fixing the economy is a down the field 50 yard pass that will likely be a highlight if pulled off successfully; however, it could just as easily end up as an incomplete or interception. 

    Defence system is 4 yard run that won't be highlighted, but if it is coupled with other 4 yard runs will lead to a win. Less likely to blow up in your face.
  • JolantheJolanthe
    Sapphira said:
    the spices thing definitely feels like a nerf to herbalism if you go the group route which is so much more convenient i don't want to go back.

    I missed this earlier, and wanted to get back to it.

    While I agree to some extent, I think it is also nice that you can still gun for more spices using the old single harvest method - it creates an opportunity to create more chances for getting spices at the expense of a slower harvest rate. I think having this opportunity choice isn't necessarily a bad thing, even if this isn't the best possible vehicle of delivery.

  • SaranSaran
    Kali said:
    On the topic of economy stuff, I firmly believe that decay mechanics shouldn't be a driving force of the game economy. They're simply not fun, even if there's a very good reason for them to exist. (Preventing database bloat). There's a reason that people buy non-decay, or get magic item curios, get artifact vials, etc. It's not because it's cheaper (It most certainly is -not-) but because having to spend an hour or two every few months trying to figure out what you need to buy, and reconfiguring reflexes, linking your rift, etc, is really unenjoyable, and honestly a barrier to getting back into the game. While games where you have to periodically upgrade your gear were mentioned, like wow and final fantasy, it's a completely different dynamic in those games, where buying new stuff lets you tackle new challenges and do more content, and that's fun. Decay is not.
    Sure, those complaints are selling points for non-decay which is why we have them. That doesn't also mean it also isn't an issue for the economy.
    Which is also why other things have been previously attempted, giving trades consumables for example. Focusing on bonuses and extras also resulted in some players complaining that such consumables shouldn't feel necessary but just optional. Which is kinda the same broad issue, engaging with the economy becomes optional and minimised. 

    And yeah, other games use an item level mechanism with consistent content releases to create regular incentives to engage with their game in ways that promote player activity and engagement. Doing so, particularly if you've fallen behind, can involve needing to spend days grinding for some form currency or trading to skip that. But Lusternia is kinda... all or nothing? If your armour is robes, buying splendours from a tailor is the best you can have within the economy unless you're a tailor yourself and if you put a rune on it then you have it forever.

    In the end there's kinda conflicting wants...
    Some people want trades to make money, but people also don't really want to have to buy things from traders.
    Economy stuff that feels positively focused feels better, but because there's no ilvls/rarity/etc there's no progression within trading the only need for repeat trades is to maintain rather than improve. 
    People who still need to buy stuff need/want there to be items readily available to buy. Where entry barriers and profitability can make other in-game pursuits more worthwhile for people who could stock.

    There's also artifacts which kinda come into it. Like, if whips, wonderwands, gnomeweapons, razing rune didn't exist as artifacts those concepts could be incorporated into trading potentially in a way that provides a gameplay loop.


    Drastrath said:
    Overview of thoughts (sports analogy): Fixing the economy is a down the field 50 yard pass that will likely be a highlight if pulled off successfully; however, it could just as easily end up as an incomplete or interception. 

    Defence system is 4 yard run that won't be highlighted, but if it is coupled with other 4 yard runs will lead to a win. Less likely to blow up in your face.
    In this analogy, the other 4 yard runs might lead to a win but the 50 yard pass also might be what is needed to win? And trying to make a bunch of 4 yard runs could end up resulting in the 50 yard pass still being needed, or even worse mean you have to make an even longer pass because the state of the game has changed in the meantime.

    But also, it's a project management issue, sports analogies don't work.
    The impact on the game for defences issue seems significantly lower than the impact of the economy.
    The risk of not doing something about it is kinda similar to the impact, defences seems a nice to have vs the economy having a more negative impact and a greater potential for being impacted by future changes implemented before it is addressed.
    Also the age of the economy issue is pretty high, which would add to the severity.
  • DrastrathDrastrath
    Saran said:
    Drastrath said:
    Overview of thoughts (sports analogy): Fixing the economy is a down the field 50 yard pass that will likely be a highlight if pulled off successfully; however, it could just as easily end up as an incomplete or interception. 

    Defence system is 4 yard run that won't be highlighted, but if it is coupled with other 4 yard runs will lead to a win. Less likely to blow up in your face.
    In this analogy, the other 4 yard runs might lead to a win but the 50 yard pass also might be what is needed to win? And trying to make a bunch of 4 yard runs could end up resulting in the 50 yard pass still being needed, or even worse mean you have to make an even longer pass because the state of the game has changed in the meantime.

    The definition of analogy is a comparison between two things, typically for the purpose of explanation or clarification. Of course the explanation will not be one for one and expecting it to be just shows that you aren't actually giving the point a chance. 

    Saran said:

    But also, it's a project management issue, sports analogies don't work.
    Since you can just make claims, I will too. This quote is incorrect. See previous definition of analogy. My analogy makes the point that the defense system should be easy and short. The economy changes will be long, and we don't even know any specifics or if it will actually fix the economy or make it worse like previous adjustments. I could further the analogy, but that defeats the point. You seem like you don't want to see any point of view other than your own. 
  • DrastrathDrastrath
    Drastrath said:

    Overview of thoughts (sports analogy): Fixing the economy is a down the field 50 yard pass that will likely be a highlight if pulled off successfully; however, it could just as easily end up as an incomplete or interception. 

    Just to clarify @Saran , if the admin does an amazing job and the play is caught then it could win the game. The point is about risk/reward/investment. 
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