How do we deal with event participation?

Aeldra · August 2021

Hey people,

We've had a little bit of time since the event chain with the Bloodtide Coven went down and I wanted to reflect with you upon the OOC side of this. I was barely evolved in the events as they were all vastly outside my native timezone and the times that I could play, so all I can personally contribute is based on the bits and pieces that I saw.

To take the side of the Bloodtide Coven, a side that was very likely to be upon the losing side and "eat dirt" , takes quite a leap of faith to be the "bad guys" in a story that will likely not end in success for those people. And I feel as a player base, we've not done the best job in supporting people taking an active role as our villains in this arc. I found it a marvellous idea and would've enjoyed what I read and hear a lot more, if I wouldn't have had also the feeling that most participants on the Bloodtide Coven got handed very poor reactions IC and OOC.

While I can not speak for those people actually in the coven, the various things that I've heard and seen, suggest to me that none of the participants feel encouraged to take a similar risk in the future again. I know even of one Player who wonders if their character is not at their end.

I feel, it is worth to reflect and have a discussion about how we would like to handle this in the future and how we could support people who are willing to put their characters on the line for the sake of a story. I also think, reflecting as to how people taking such excursions can return to their respective orgs afterwards without facing expulsion or similar potentially character-ending consequences, would be a good idea. (Don't get me wrong, actions have consequences, but I feel no one should have to fear the risk of losing their character because they were on the wrong side of an event).

What are your thoughts on this matter? What are valid things that a character could be faced that would not result in people losing all joy in their characters / get kicked out of orgs? What can we do to support people better OOC?

I, for one, commend all of those who did dare to take part despite the risk and hope that, at least in the future ,we can avoid punishing people quite so harshly for participating in events.

Ashipedia · August 2021

I agree that actions do have consequences, but for those consequences to be your character is ousted from multiple orgs and ignored in attempts to join an org is beyond acceptable to me. Being the "villain" shouldn't pigeon hole you into one org like this seems to be doing.

Kennian · August 2021

I would definitely like to extend a very heart-felt 'thank you' to the members of the Coven who put so much time and energy into a story for us all to enjoy. It is such a difficult balance between the IC reactions your characters should have and the OOC reality that these people invested so much and took such a risk.

In the case of the Bloodtide Coven, because of the nature of some of the actions I can see how it makes it difficult for certain orgs to let go of their ideals and accept a member, but that also leaves few options for the players. I am curious how much advance knowledge of the story the players had in order to make their decision to participate? One strong example was the murder of the child - were the players given enough time to decide if this was a direction they wanted their character to go in so that they could understand the possible repercussions?

Lawrence · August 2021

I think it's really weird to be upset to see very reasonable IC reactions. I don't know about other people being kicked for supporting the coven outside of Celest but it does seem like a very sound decision considering the IC implications of supporting a divine who sort of screwed over the Basin by causing the potential end of the world.

I didn't actively participate in this event, due to not really feeling all that well recently, but I did very much enjoy seeing the logs people posted on both sides of the conflict. While I do feel bad for anyone who isn't able to participate in the game the same way as before due to losing their org, I don't really see it as an egregious act of OOC bitterness to follow through on IC motivations.

Falaine · August 2021

Honestly, this might be unpopular to say, but... if you don't think you can handle the possible consequences of a decision, don't do it. It would be shatteringly immersion-breaking to see someone literally help a Divine try to bring about the end of the world, for example, and get off with a tap on the wrist for it for the sake of OOC feelings. No one forced any of the Coven into it- this isn't a case of being painted into a corner by admin. It's a case of voluntarily participating in an overtly and clearly flagged as morally evil plotline as the villain.

When RP stops having IC consequences, we stop having a story- we just have a big fancy chatroom.

In this particular example, people can and did turn away when it got to a point their char wasn't okay with.. and were not just written off for it! They got their own little sideline things to do, and were generally exonerated. But if you ride things out to the end, flaunting it, and then are shocked when people react authentically IC? I don't know what to tell you except to take a big step back and treat this like a movie or book. It's a game. It's not you. Feel the emotions and then let them go. Breathe, take some mental space, and come back and explore new options. There's always the chance for redemption. The only person I've heard of being ousted is someone who at every point has been adamant about NOT being repentant.

Lantra · August 2021

I'd like to take a moment to share how we approached the Bloodtide Coven from an event design perspective.

When coming up with the concept for the Li-varili arc, something we knew we wanted to have from the very beginning was a method for players to assist her if they wanted. We discussed internally ways of accomplishing this in a way that would be satisfying for players, and what we settled on was a series of escalating events. Each one was opt-in for the players involved, and as the events went on, the actions slid more into Li-varili's overall desire for revenge.

A player might be comfortable helping awaken Sister Sea, for example, but pause at breaking Li-varili out of Lantra's healing mound with Drocilla. Someone else might be comfortable doing the latter, but not be comfortable sacrificing an innocent taurian boy on the altar of Li-varili's anger, along with a beloved nereid priestess. And still more players would be comfortable doing all those things, but hesitate at imprisoning all the Elder Gods in thousands of years of torment -- or only do so once they realized it was every god, not just the ones in the awakening, that Li-v chose to betray.

We expected players to betray Li-varili throughout the Bloodtide arc, and left doors open for people to become turncoats along the way, and to reward that behavior. We also were open to players staying loyal to Li-varili the entire time and being part of her swan song, and for Li-varili to give them special attention in those final moments. We had plans in place for both situations.

You'll notice Magnagora had different reactions to Li-varili than the other orgs, and this was also by design. We knew orgs like Serenwilde and Celest were going to be more firmly against Li-varili's actions due to their inherent roleplay, but Magnagora through Drocilla's ties to Li gave us an opportunity to "condone" betrayal in a way that players didn't feel they had to go against the org per se. Even when they realized Drocilla had been ultimately betrayed, Bloodtide members could take part through the end and more or less have enjoyed the entire thoroughline of the Year Arc. In essence, Mag would be a "safe haven" if no other org was in the endgame.

Something players often sigh about in the aftermath of a Year Arc is the sense that their actions throughout the arc did not ultimately matter, and that the events would have unfolded exactly the same way if they had not participated. We worked hard this year to give a sense that every player's actions did matter, and the result was a lot of optional high stakes actions on the villain's side that -- understandably -- would invite some criticism by many orgs and players in the game. Because Li-varili's actions were always meant to culminate in the destruction of a Seal, and invite the judgment of the other Elders. Something on this level storywise would have to invite judgment from players, too. We did our best to make everything for the Bloodtide Coven consensual and clear from start to finish.

After Ascension we are likely to write a few godblogs to further expand on this topic, but there is a difference between IC actions receiving IC consequences and IC actions inviting OOC hatred. If you ever feel the latter is the case and you are being harassed to the point of being pushed to leave the game, we invite you to ISSUE yourself.

Jolanthe · August 2021

I'm actually really curious about how the coven was coordinated and the mechanisms behind that too - event posts offer some glimpse, but it sounds like there was a lot of secrecy all over the place (even within the coven itself). Was pretty much everything coordinated through Li?

Xiran · August 2021

Lantra said:

I'd like to take a moment to share how we approached the Bloodtide Coven from an event design perspective.

When coming up with the concept for the Li-varili arc, something we knew we wanted to have from the very beginning was a method for players to assist her if they wanted. We discussed internally ways of accomplishing this in a way that would be satisfying for players, and what we settled on was a series of escalating events. Each one was opt-in for the players involved, and as the events went on, the actions slid more into Li-varili's overall desire for revenge.

This design felt well communicated, observing as someone from the outside the coven. We did see characters that turned away at various points, or rebounded back to Bloodtide Coven. I could also see the draw of continuing to receive praise until the end.

Agreeing with Falaine above on IC consequence. There's still room to play a redemption arc if that's what's desired.

Kennian · August 2021

Lantra said:

I'd like to take a moment to share how we approached the Bloodtide Coven from an event design perspective.

When coming up with the concept for the Li-varili arc, something we knew we wanted to have from the very beginning was a method for players to assist her if they wanted. We discussed internally ways of accomplishing this in a way that would be satisfying for players, and what we settled on was a series of escalating events. Each one was opt-in for the players involved, and as the events went on, the actions slid more into Li-varili's overall desire for revenge.

A player might be comfortable helping awaken Sister Sea, for example, but pause at breaking Li-varili out of Lantra's healing mound with Drocilla. Someone else might be comfortable doing the latter, but not be comfortable sacrificing an innocent taurian boy on the altar of Li-varili's anger, along with a beloved nereid priestess. And still more players would be comfortable doing all those things, but hesitate at imprisoning all the Elder Gods in thousands of years of torment -- or only do so once they realized it was every god, not just the ones in the awakening, that Li-v chose to betray.

We expected players to betray Li-varili throughout the Bloodtide arc, and left doors open for people to become turncoats along the way, and to reward that behavior. We also were open to players staying loyal to Li-varili the entire time and being part of her swan song, and for Li-varili to give them special attention in those final moments. We had plans in place for both situations.

You'll notice Magnagora had different reactions to Li-varili than the other orgs, and this was also by design. We knew orgs like Serenwilde and Celest were going to be more firmly against Li-varili's actions due to their inherent roleplay, but Magnagora through Drocilla's ties to Li gave us an opportunity to "condone" betrayal in a way that players didn't feel they had to go against the org per se. Even when they realized Drocilla had been ultimately betrayed, Bloodtide members could take part through the end and more or less have enjoyed the entire thoroughline of the Year Arc. In essence, Mag would be a "safe haven" if no other org was in the endgame.

Something players often sigh about in the aftermath of a Year Arc is the sense that their actions throughout the arc did not ultimately matter, and that the events would have unfolded exactly the same way if they had not participated. We worked hard this year to give a sense that every player's actions did matter, and the result was a lot of optional high stakes actions on the villain's side that -- understandably -- would invite some criticism by many orgs and players in the game. Because Li-varili's actions were always meant to culminate in the destruction of a Seal, and invite the judgment of the other Elders. Something on this level storywise would have to invite judgment from players, too. We did our best to make everything for the Bloodtide Coven consensual and clear from start to finish.

After Ascension we are likely to write a few godblogs to further expand on this topic, but there is a difference between IC actions receiving IC consequences and IC actions inviting OOC hatred. If you ever feel the latter is the case and you are being harassed to the point of being pushed to leave the game, we invite you to ISSUE yourself.

Thank you for that very detailed response. It makes things much more clear, at least for me. And it's really great to see implementation of players' concerns about their actions making a difference to the game overall.

Eritheyl · August 2021

I have a lot of thoughts on this topic, all colored by personal experience. tl;dr - my boyfriend chose violence and opted to ollie out when I made life hard for him in return, and I regret only some of it.

As a player I'm not afraid to push my character into contentious territory, even when it makes me the bad guy among my circle, which was something that came naturally from this event. Rekath, someone I've played alongside for basically my entire history in Lusternia, sided with Li-varili and the Coven, whereas Eritheyl was and still is staunchly opposed.

As an elected representative, and as the brother of another representative elected at the same level, my character was put in a position to rally behind the ideals of his city or the love for his brother. It's not an easy choice to make, but the damage control had to be pretty immediate regardless of which I opted for - quiet, assumed neutrality wasn't going to be an option for long. On the flip side, from the player's perspective, it was a lose-lose situation. To make things a little more complicated, Rekath and I are RL partners, so there was always going to be some friction if we weren't on the same team, or worse if I raised the stakes in a way that didn't favor him.

The latter is exactly what I did, motioning for the Council to charge Rekath with treason and strip him of his title. It wasn't anything against Rekath, the player, but it was a necessary measure (all in my opinion) of Gaudiguch staking a claim firmly against the Coven and anyone who aided their plots. It was an IC action, driven by IC circumstances, and not without IC internal struggle all along the way. It's unfortunate that it ended the way it did, with Rekath believing there was no course except to retire his character rather than exploring avenues of reparation and redemption. I blindsided him with my countermeasures, assuming consent because he had made the choice to play a role that logically would be condemned. It wasn't pretty, and I've come to terms with how I contributed to his decision and how badly I feel about it. But even after that I will say that I loved this event and how it forced me to question what was right and good for me as a player versus what was right and good for Eritheyl as a character.

This arc was a huge success in my opinion, as unlike with plots past that just had everyone holding hands and using the power of begrudging friendship to save the world, our interconnections were put to the test. It forced some of us to make those tough choices, and brought change and consequence to the game that otherwise we would sidestep in the interest of preserving our personal status quo. That is how you develop characters, and that is how you set a world to evolve based on conscious decisions and bias rather than making one obvious bad guy and one obvious good guy to do battle over and over on a loop. Watering that down and saying "Well it's all IC so no one should have to pay for their actions" is a huge disservice to the work it took to build such a polarizing plot in the first place, imo. Freedom from choice is not freedom from consequence, if you light a fire you should expect to feel the heat.

Lantra · August 2021

Jolanthe said:

I'm actually really curious about how the coven was coordinated and the mechanisms behind that too - event posts offer some glimpse, but it sounds like there was a lot of secrecy all over the place (even within the coven itself). Was pretty much everything coordinated through Li?

(We have talked about making a godblog about this very subject! Stay Tuned.)

Sapphira · August 2021

So I was actually part of the coven. I missed the start due to an ill-timed vacation (and was super upset by it, not going to lie, I was one of the few Li didn't outright murder when I spoke to Her and had the then-bizarre combination of a favour from both Li and Dro at once, ha.) which was the build up to the actual sea awakening. The subterfuge and plotting there really sounded like amazing fun. To think you can be involved in a secret plot to help a goddess - amazing!

Anyway. I got involved for a few reasons. Having done Rhizoda Mangrove quest there was some insight into Li's past and the hurts She'd suffered before even being imprisoned, and Her link to Drocilla. I felt (and we were encouraged later) that getting to know Her was something Dro would want us to do. I can reveal now, before the plot to start awakening Sea, Sapphira was going to act as a spy for Dro basically, since she had good favour with Her, she was going to continue to play up that devotion to learn the plot and see what needed to happen from there. That all got thrown out the window (seriously, curse my freaking trip, I was so looking forward to it) and it ended up being someone else who did that. I managed to log in just in time to join the bloodcoven at the very end and enjoy some of the chaos of pushing people around the water, not even really knowing what I was doing but not wanting to miss out!

What I really loved, and feel like a large part of the player base missed, is how GREY it all was. It wasn't really cut and dry Li is bad, opposing Her is good. Orgs even taking a strong position of we as a whole are completely opposed frustrated me a little, because when you look at the parts individually, there was a lot to agonise over and be unsure of. Was it really so bad to want to do what was essentially Her pupose, and awaken the Sea? IMAGINE if the other Elders had helped instead of hindered - maybe we'd be hanging out with Sister Sea right now! But it felt like a lot of people didn't even want to pause and consider other angles. It was just NO SEA BAD - which I get from an in character/believing and following my divine perspective more than the ooc perspective. I love that it was debatable. I wish more people had been open to actually debating or at least showing a measure of uncertainty as to what was right. I really enjoyed that Xiran stopped to listen to why we were trying to wake Li from the mound. I think she's the only person who IC asked me any questions. Even among the coven, everyone had different reasons for being involved and a different level of devotion. Again - nothing was so simple as being black and white.

I heard that there were ooc conversations really crapping all over the bloodcoven, which I think is the biggest injustice of all. Imaging how -boring- the event would have been if everyone refused to engage with Li and all we got to do was stand by the elders as they emoted at each other and we got wet. Should orgs ICly take an absolute hard line stance in instances where there is a lot of grey and room for interpretation of motives and understanding if not agreement of how things happened? That's rough on anyone to bear the brunt of that, and I think could provoke really interesting IC debate. But mostly the ooc hate, that's just not ok. Completely being ignored by an org you petitioned to join is RUDE, I don't care who you are. It is not hard to say 'no'. Or 'we will consider if we are open to even considering your request'. Having to listen on a clan while you're mocked ooc for your ic choices is not the positive environment I thought was being fostered in Lusternia and I was really disappointed to learn of it.

I have absolutely loved this arc. I loved being able to take part. I love that Li-varili showed no favouritism towards an org or race and just hated everyone equally (As a Mag, I really feel this and it was amazing to have a divine that would engage with me without just being all you're a Mag and follow Dro lol get out). Secrets are great. I can't help but wonder though if the Mag safe haven didn't help skew things to presume 'Mag is supporting it so it's evil' somewhat, in an arc that was filled with doubt and multiple points of view and really good reasons to have sympathy for the goddess who'd really had a horrible run. I don't like the stigma of blanket Magnagora being evil - plenty of our own did not get involved at all and didn't trust those that did, and it was managed at least without the org breaking into civil war or ostrasizing people. But again, we had the temperance of Dro basically making room for us to engage or not as we liked without persecution.

Moving forward - I would love to see more events of this sort but maybe even more grey surrounding our choices. Maybe just once it can be Celest against the world! Or something more subtle that really makes characters choose for themselves and no be the world versus like, 7 players, some of whom come out of it so destroyed they feel their only option is to quit or join an org thet traditionally have actually been opposed to. Supporting Li-varili shouldn't naturally mean 'also likes Magnagora and should live there or just be ousted from everywhere ever' because there is also plenty of reason for Mags to not support her either! Either way. I really loved Li, her personality and emotes were so FUN to behold. She didn't care for anyone and that must have been so liberating to play. I'm also so in love with nereids, I want my own little pocket nereid to hang out with sassing and stabbing people.

Falaine · August 2021

I've really gotta disagree about the amount of grey area there was here. Li-v was running around the Basin betraying everyone, crapping on everyone, very clearly damaged and insane. It's okay to love her, that's fine. But there were so, so, so many flags of things that were very clearly anathema to the very core of various organizations' base beliefs and causes. As for asking questions IC? I know I did, and so did many, many others at the healing mound. And I was mocked for it, called names, etc. by the Coven members.

I feel like this is arguing that you should be free to do anything because you're having fun doing it- and you should be! But that doesn't free you from consequences. This is a terribly skewed argument, and.. man, if people are crapping on you OOC for your RP then that's messed up, but I've personally seen nothing but OOC support. And from what I've seen the reaction toward the Coven has actually trended toward too mild IC.

There might have been grey in waking Sea, even though it was impossibly arrogant and motivated by a desire for power rather than love. But less so in waking a healing patient prematurely, through slaughtering fae. And there is absolutely zero grey in sacrificing a child. Period. That's evil. You could have backed out there if you didn't want every org who would be against that sort of thing to condemn you for doing so. And then the 'Cursing the whole Basin' bit.

Let me be clear. There is absolutely nothing wrong with joining the Coven storyline and loving it. But I am utterly baffled by the shock over the (very clearly warned) consequences of doing so.

Sapphira · August 2021

Falaine said:

I've really gotta disagree about the amount of grey area there was here. Li-v was running around the Basin betraying everyone, crapping on everyone, very clearly damaged and insane. It's okay to love her, that's fine. But there were so, so, so many flags of things that were very clearly anathema to the very core of various organizations' base beliefs and causes. As for asking questions IC? I know I did, and so did many, many others at the healing mound. And I was mocked for it, called names, etc. by the Coven members.

I feel like this is arguing that you should be free to do anything because you're having fun doing it- and you should be! But that doesn't free you from consequences. This is a terribly skewed argument, and.. man, if people are crapping on you OOC for your RP then that's messed up, but I've personally seen nothing but OOC support. but from what I've seen the reaction toward the Coven has actually trended toward too mild IC.

There might have been grey in waking Sea, even though it was impossibly arrogant and motivated by a desire for power rather than love. But less so in waking a healing patient prematurely, through slaughtering fae. And there is absolutely zero grey in sacrificing a child. Period. That's evil. You could have backed out there if you didn't want every org who would be against that sort of thing to condemn you for doing so. And then the 'Cursing the whole Basin' bit.

Let me be clear. There is absolutely nothing wrong with joining the Coven storyline and loving it. But I am utterly baffled by the shock over the (very clearly warned) consequences of doing so.

One thing I love about Lusternia is that argument for almost everything can be skewed. Taking a brush ooc and saying without a doubt that your IC view is the only correct and valid one is half the problem. 'impossibly arrogant and motivated by a desire for power rather than love' is actually not a black and white fact that anyone can claim or know outside of Li-varili Herself. It may be correct. But it also may not be because no one knows Her inner psyche. Maybe She liked to talk a big game but deep down all She wanted was something tangible, a child to love and cherish that would remind Her of Her lost love. Both sides can be argued! That's my main point. It's not 100% right or 100% wrong, and it's these things that make my love Lusternia lore. It's about perspectives. And players and characters can choose their position and argue them passionately IC, that's awesome. Your comment highlights my own bafflement in why there wasn't more uncertainty within more orgs. Making a choice and backing it is a super valid stance, expecting everyone to completely agree with it without question is what I have an issue with. Things went bad and She has serious issues doesn't equate to aligning with Her is wrong and anyone who did is bad, on a global, blanket level.

As for the child - sacrificing a child is evil, period - that too is subjective. YOU and perhaps your org might 100% agree that is true. Take a look at the vernal child. It brings up ends justifying the means or not. Glomdoring sacrifice a baby ritualistically on the regular! And yet Celest are still ok with working with them. Serenwilde and Magnagora are no strangers to blood sacrifices. Gaudiguch harvest flesh and have labs where they messed with fae. Lots of orgs don't care about fae in general. Ever killed mobs on Frosticia or Crum? So again I take issue with expecting everyone IC and OOC to see things through the same lense. That can be your view and your characters view but it doesn't by default make it the only view or the right view. YOU may think people were too lenient on the coven but that doesn't mean your view is the ONLY one that is right or valid. That's what I'm getting at here. Why would every org be so black and white on it? Should they be? These are just things to think about and I don't think arguing ooc that someone was right or wrong ic is helpful. There are consequences to our actions, but does every org really agree to the same extent on the same topic that one player has no choice but to turn to Magnagora because they sided with an unaligned goddess who was crazy but also very capable of inspiring a lot of sympathy?

I'm mostly playing devil's advocate here, because I would love to see more engaging story lines like the Li arc in the future, without people going 'not worth it for the fallout'. That, to me, is a little sad. Mocking someone IC for their views is not the same as mocking them ooc for it. My character has not had to endure adverse consequences for taking part but I really feel for those who have. That's all. I'm just trying to encourage everyone to consider an ooc empathetic view, and hope that there may sometimes also be room ic for the same thing (I really think there is. You can understand someone's point of view and still disagree with it!). Feeling like you need to quit because you picked a certain side is not something nice to consider as players of a game genre that is dwindling.

Sapphira · August 2021

Xiran said:

Lantra said:

I'd like to take a moment to share how we approached the Bloodtide Coven from an event design perspective.

When coming up with the concept for the Li-varili arc, something we knew we wanted to have from the very beginning was a method for players to assist her if they wanted. We discussed internally ways of accomplishing this in a way that would be satisfying for players, and what we settled on was a series of escalating events. Each one was opt-in for the players involved, and as the events went on, the actions slid more into Li-varili's overall desire for revenge.

This design felt well communicated, observing as someone from the outside the coven. We did see characters that turned away at various points, or rebounded back to Bloodtide Coven. I could also see the draw of continuing to receive praise until the end.

Agreeing with Falaine above on IC consequence. There's still room to play a redemption arc if that's what's desired.

The allure of actually getting divine interaction is ridiculously powerful, sidenote. Some of you don't know how lucky you are!

Saran · August 2021

Sapphira said:

What I really loved, and feel like a large part of the player base missed, is how GREY it all was. It wasn't really cut and dry Li is bad, opposing Her is good. Orgs even taking a strong position of we as a whole are completely opposed frustrated me a little, because when you look at the parts individually, there was a lot to agonise over and be unsure of. Was it really so bad to want to do what was essentially Her pupose, and awaken the Sea? IMAGINE if the other Elders had helped instead of hindered - maybe we'd be hanging out with Sister Sea right now! But it felt like a lot of people didn't even want to pause and consider other angles. It was just NO SEA BAD - which I get from an in character/believing and following my divine perspective more than the ooc perspective. I love that it was debatable. I wish more people had been open to actually debating or at least showing a measure of uncertainty as to what was right. I really enjoyed that Xiran stopped to listen to why we were trying to wake Li from the mound. I think she's the only person who IC asked me any questions. Even among the coven, everyone had different reasons for being involved and a different level of devotion. Again - nothing was so simple as being black and white.

Seren had at least some levels grappling with the concept that the awakening of Sea is something we'd actually really like to see, in part because in one idylic seren vision of the future there's a Sea commune. This added a bit of a... melancholic(?) tone at times because we would love Sea to awaken but everything, except Li-Varili, is telling us this is the wrong way, then we had that it was wrong reconfirmed, and in the end the awakening had to be undone which is sad but tinged with the hope that when the time is right she might awaken.

Even a little, exceedingly vain, hope that Sea might find respite in Seralem and return to the basin one day. Along with the waryness of supporting Nocht that was only really allayed because Maylea did.

Sapphira said:
I heard that there were ooc conversations really crapping all over the bloodcoven, which I think is the biggest injustice of all. Imaging how -boring- the event would have been if everyone refused to engage with Li and all we got to do was stand by the elders as they emoted at each other and we got wet. Should orgs ICly take an absolute hard line stance in instances where there is a lot of grey and room for interpretation of motives and understanding if not agreement of how things happened? That's rough on anyone to bear the brunt of that, and I think could provoke really interesting IC debate. But mostly the ooc hate, that's just not ok. Completely being ignored by an org you petitioned to join is RUDE, I don't care who you are. It is not hard to say 'no'. Or 'we will consider if we are open to even considering your request'. Having to listen on a clan while you're mocked ooc for your ic choices is not the positive environment I thought was being fostered in Lusternia and I was really disappointed to learn of it.

I have absolutely loved this arc. I loved being able to take part. I love that Li-varili showed no favouritism towards an org or race and just hated everyone equally (As a Mag, I really feel this and it was amazing to have a divine that would engage with me without just being all you're a Mag and follow Dro lol get out). Secrets are great. I can't help but wonder though if the Mag safe haven didn't help skew things to presume 'Mag is supporting it so it's evil' somewhat, in an arc that was filled with doubt and multiple points of view and really good reasons to have sympathy for the goddess who'd really had a horrible run. I don't like the stigma of blanket Magnagora being evil - plenty of our own did not get involved at all and didn't trust those that did, and it was managed at least without the org breaking into civil war or ostrasizing people. But again, we had the temperance of Dro basically making room for us to engage or not as we liked without persecution.

Moving forward - I would love to see more events of this sort but maybe even more grey surrounding our choices. Maybe just once it can be Celest against the world! Or something more subtle that really makes characters choose for themselves and no be the world versus like, 7 players, some of whom come out of it so destroyed they feel their only option is to quit or join an org thet traditionally have actually been opposed to. Supporting Li-varili shouldn't naturally mean 'also likes Magnagora and should live there or just be ousted from everywhere ever' because there is also plenty of reason for Mags to not support her either! Either way. I really loved Li, her personality and emotes were so FUN to behold. She didn't care for anyone and that must have been so liberating to play. I'm also so in love with nereids, I want my own little pocket nereid to hang out with sassing and stabbing people.

Early on I was wondering if this event might go down a route of Celest being the villains of the story or even the communes being pit against each other mostly because it's the Sea Spirit, and it could be pretty interesting to see stories where each org messes up something major.

But I'm not sure Mag supporting it had that much of an impact for me because it was more based on her actions. For example, some big issues for me were that Li-Varili had played a part in messing up the Kaelye ritual and nabbed the eye, there were concerns about her sanity, and we had lore pointing at doing the awakening on her own would be disastrous being backed up by the other Elders reactions along the event.

With regards to ostrasizing, there's a reality that given the population of the game everyone needs every active player they can get and kicking active people out is generally a significant loss for the org so if there's a viable route to retain or recruit someone my experience is that's at the forefront of peoples minds. But there is an onus on the person that went the villain route to actively enable that and seek that, which does not always happen and I don't think it's unreasonable for org leaders put the focus elsewhere.

Sapphira · August 2021

I wish I'd been privvy to some more of the lore IC on why the raising was wrong/doomed. It may not have made a difference but the agony of choice is something I often enjoy. Thanks for sharing that perspective!

Saran · August 2021

Sapphira said:

I wish I'd been privvy to some more of the lore IC on why the raising was wrong/doomed. It may not have made a difference but the agony of choice is something I often enjoy. Thanks for sharing that perspective!

Just for clarity, some isn't necessarily within the confines of the event, but more the broader picture of Serenwilde to me? The morals and ethics that inform the forest, the Sowers prophecy merged with the Listeners cautionary tales from the past, etc.
Which I think is really a good thing if that was the goal, because then basically... information was provided that was interpreted within an org context that then shaped the response to that information. Though I do also like teasing out the ethical questions of like "what makes our blood sacrifices/necromancy right but the outsiders versions evil?"

Jolanthe · August 2021

Sapphira said:

What I really loved, and feel like a large part of the player base missed, is how GREY it all was. It wasn't really cut and dry Li is bad, opposing Her is good.

As someone who was ever teetering on the idea of supporting Li, what pushed me away completely was the chain of events with the Eye. IMO, I feel like that was a juncture where Li could have showed even a shred of empathy considering some of the mirroring in her pain against Maylea's relationship with her own sister mate, and instead all we got was... grotesque, absurd amounts of narcissism and selfishness on Li's side. This was the point where Jo stopped seeing reflections of some of the good people in her life in this goddess, and could only see a mirroring of all the worst people. If it didn't take so much work to accept her on the surface level (especially with the visible propensity to lie), this "grey" might have felt less murky. I can accept that there could have been more parts to the story to earn more sympathy, but it hurts Li's angle really severely if they're basically only for the coven's eyes.

Uzriel · August 2021

Sapphira summed up my thoughts fairly well as well. I will especially highlight her comment about members of the Coven being mocked on OOC clans (even moreso that they are in) is not okay. As she said, things would be quite boring if nobody chose to play the other side.

I personally really enjoyed play playing in the Coven, and working with people I normally wouldn’t in other orgs knowing it was us vs the world was especially a highlight. I also know that for myself, that it was going to end in losing was pretty much a foregone conclusion and I went into it with the mentality of enjoying the ride. One aspect I did find disappointing was really how little attempt to find out about the covens motivations I saw - outside of some Mags I only really talked with Xiran and Gurashi about that.

While it was obvious that Li wasn’t really a great person, I do think there was enough room for grey that people could engage with and frankly none of the orgs are particularly “good”. Look up the history of the Vernal Child, Climanti, or most of the Holy Celestine Empire for example. I do hope future events expand on that, while I enjoyed the everybody vs us of the event, it would be nice for another org to take that role occasionally.

I will end on echoing that I absolutely loved the event. Li-varili was great, the nereids were great (if I didn’t know about Iaiara picking a nereid would have been HARD). I really got to go through a nice arc of being interested in Li due to Rhizoda and her link to Dro. Quickly resenting and initially wanting nothing to do with her. Then slowly working with her and becoming more and more sympathetic of her while walking on eggshells and keeping an eye out for the inevitable dagger/zap in the back.

Maylea · August 2021

As Lantra has mentioned in her post, if anyone is experiencing or has experienced OOC harassment, please do ISSUE with your concerns, so such behaviour can be addressed. HELP ISSUES explains the different ways of ISSUEing.

Xenthos · August 2021

If you make a character decision, expect there to be IC repercussions for that decision. If you double / triple down on it, lie to / mislead people to pursue an end that is opposed to their own, and show no remorse for those actions... they're not the ones boxing you in. You boxed them in. You've given them no ability to do anything else other than say "Ok we can't trust you." If you're the one making the choices and people are reacting to those... you made that situation for yourself. It's up to you to make the changes necessary to open a door for them.

I also can't see a compelling reason why (most) characters would care about the motivations of the Blood Coven. They were doing something obviously harmful and needed to be countered. For the most part that can ICly just be chalked up to "Well, they're Magnagorans, this is what they do." It's kind of like asking what the remaining members of some sacrificial cult's motivations were - it might be entertaining to some, but most people just want it to not be happening in the first place.

Absolutely you had every right to do so, and OOCly I believe that your motivations were valid! But asking why more people didn't check in seems a bit odd, because the general populace doesn't generally run up to who they consider to be the "crazy people" and ask them why IRL either.

Lorina · August 2021

Oh, I would absolutely love to offer my view, as one of the turncoats of the Blood Tide. A little backstory, because this is HEAVY in this thing called Roleplay. There were things happen that LORINA had to do despite me (The Player) wanted to do.

Lorina is dirt old and was an Aquamancer in New Celest longer than most modern characters have existed. To Lorina, the Sea is a long-time friend and companion. Li-Varili appeared in a time when Lorina was scorned by a loss of devotion and purpose, and offered her a chance to bring to life the Sea. In Lorina's mind, this was perfect regardless of the way Li-Varili acted... Within Lorina's time, she HAD witnessed a Divine, Lord Eventru, bring to life His realm in the form of the being known as Agia. Lorina wanted nothing more to re-experience that, and to see the Sea brought to life... her long time friend who lasted the centuries with her since most people Lorina knew no longer exists, she sought comfort in the oceans.

Lorina, with no current purpose, accepted the tasks Li-Varili offered and helped create the seaweed circle. This wasn't anything different for Lorina, being an Aquamancer for four hundred years... girl played in seaweed all her life. Now, why do you ask the secrecy? Lorina was working with Magnagorans and was ashamed of that, and assumed the ends justified the means... she would see the Sea given life. Well, her tune changed after she witnessed the poor awakening. When the Nereids came to her asking her to help break Li-Varili OUT of Lantra's healing mound, Lorina's history comes into play again...

My Lorina, sweet gal, has been an avid healer while being an Aquamancer. It was the whole reason she became an Aquamancer since they were famous for their healing talents. She was so well-known for healing, the Basin's first Cult, her Cult... Was the August Healer. Of course Lorina was not going to interrupt that healing process, so Lorina warned Aeldra of a potential plot... Once the Nereids came to Lorina AGAIN with even darker plans, Lorina broke away from the Blood Tide completely vowing to end the bloodshed especially after learning the loss of an innocent. That's when she stole the Mirror from Li-Varili.

Me, the Player, wanted nothing more than to continue the story of the Blood Tide, but Lorina would never go beyond helping Awakening the Sea Spirit. Please understand that some people are in character, and they have history. ASK THEM WHY THEY DID IT. Don't assume good/evil being so black and white!

Jolanthe · August 2021

So, while it's on my mind and I still need to get clams - when are we getting Toronada back?

Saran · August 2021

Just regarding the comments about finding out motivations, there's a real difference in relevance there.

For me, where it was relevant to find out what those motivations were it was actually done and in my, albeit limited, experience that just made the Bloodtide coven along with Li-Varili look even worse than I'd thought they were. It also... wasn't particularly fun to engage with for a few reasons.

Sapphira · August 2021

This just makes me think all the more, for once it would be so nice if it wasn't just 'Mags are doing stuff and are the bad guys as usual' and someone else got to be the scapegoat for a change.

Lantra · August 2021

Sapphira said:

This just makes me think all the more, for once it would be so nice if it wasn't just 'Mags are doing stuff and are the bad guys as usual' and someone else got to be the scapegoat for a change.

I do want to clarify that admin-side, the intention wasn't to turn Magnagora into a scapegoat, but rather to acknowledge that Magnagora had a unique roleplay avenue through Drocilla that particularly allowed them to enjoy the 'villainy' of the event. We wanted players in Magnagora to be aware that the admin understood this and we were going to make it clear they could take that avenue if they chose.

Hypothetically, other players could have chosen to join Li-varili as a double agent from the start, too! We were open to the possibility of players from any organization pretending to help Li-varili but secretly funneling information to their Divine behind Li-v's back. Drocillans were the ones who decided to take that roleplay avenue and run with it, however.

Xenthos · August 2021

Sapphira said:

This just makes me think all the more, for once it would be so nice if it wasn't just 'Mags are doing stuff and are the bad guys as usual' and someone else got to be the scapegoat for a change.

It's somewhat difficult because Magnagora is the one org that is the most obviously "we will sacrifice anything for personal power." Other orgs are like Serenwilde and Celest (joining a villain character is pretty much out from the get-go, their entire thing is about "saving" the world, for their own definitions), or Glomdoring/Hallifax where the outcome absolutely must exceed the risk (the Glomdoring/the Collective are the most important things, more important than any individual). Putting those on the chopping block is out.

Gaudiguch is the wild card, they can basically go any way they want.

Nocht, after the Awakening of the Sea, did tell Glom that we could do anything we wanted regarding Levi. By then, however, it was obvious to many of us that what was best was that she stay locked in that healing mound forever. Xenthos never even tried to help her at all, for example.

If the admin do an open-ended "anyone can join the villain character" kind of style event, Magnagorans just seem, in general, to be the ones who would be most attracted to exploring that avenue. Not even as a "scapegoat", just by character and organizational roleplay.

Uzriel · August 2021

Many of the Mags that joined with Li did not do so to just be the villain, there were compelling reasons for it which was sort of my point. I’m a little resentful at that implication that Mags joined just to troll the Basin. Any org has the potential to we will sacrifice anything for X - in Mag it might be power but other orgs absolutely have reasons and potential to do so for the wyrd/preserving nature/the light/peep chili/whatever.

There is easily a path or links for orgs to do things that make them the “villain” without it being Mag only and I have absolute faith that admin can tap into those hooks, it’s really an experience players ought to indulge in if given the opportunity.

Xenthos · August 2021

I am not saying that anyone in Magnagora joined to "be the villain," I said that Magnagorans are the most likely to join the obviously villainous character. Other organizations have more disincentives to do so.

The admin were very clearly (to me at least) not trying to pin this to be an "any one org" thing (which if they had tied it to Light, Wyrd, or anything else they would have boxed everyone else out). They were leaving options open for anyone to join if they wanted to. And, in that environment, the most likely characters to do so are Magnagoran ones. I think the evidence speaks for itself. I don't really see any scapegoating or anything of the like, everything was purely voluntary, and I think that's actually kind of neat.

Uzriel · August 2021

My comment about hooks for other orgs to be a villain was specifically about future events and nothing to do with the current one, which again I greatly enjoyed.

Howdy, Stranger!

Quick Links

Categories

In this Discussion

How do we deal with event participation?

Comments